There won't be more than 2 for each class man, it wasn't just an example, the Sith Warrior will have Juggernaut and Marauder, the other classes that have been revealed are for the smuggler (Scoundrel / Gunslinger).
For the rest I agree, nothing earthshattering, but just a solid system that works well.
Sure I read an article saying that the sub classes had additional specialisation , let me look for it ?
There are four trees, two for each "advanced class." I guess the core skill system would be a fifth tree.
I really don't care how they do it , long as it's fun. But I really don't see this being any different than any other tree type system. There is one spec that is always better, and most people will choose it, several who don't know how to play the current game will pick almost any other skill in the trees at random with no thought process and a few others will choose w/e they want with disregard to what spec is best and play what they find is fun.
Hopefully they can fidn a way to make all the skills in the trees viable which is generally easier said than done. Either way, I can't wait till its out and I can play!
I really don't care how they do it , long as it's fun.
Well, I would just say that how can people be complaining about more options for the classes. It seems crazy now that some were saying that SW:TOR would be linear...there are just so many options open to players now that we are talking a game that has some serious sandbox parts to it now. Mix into that a plot filled, story heavy, instanced to make it fun, solo or group friendly, end-game interesting, PvP/RvR fantastic blast of an mmo for next year!
The progressive news is great. The news, not necessarily that they are following the mmorpg path, but the news about continued little details on the game is good.
I also hope, though it's been shown to be be very challenging, that the sub classes are resourceful and in different ways, necessary, productive to solo and team play, and engaging.
While this will hopefully be great, it does not seem to be anything new. If you take AoC it has a very similar system and was originally going to have your choices based in game. You started off as a level 1 slave and then at level 5 got to pick soldier, mage, priest or rogue and then at level 20 choose your advanced class. They scrapped it though and allowed people to pick what they wanted to play at level 1 so you could start getting those feats or skills early on. So will this advanced system end up being more of a pain than an advantage where cause I haven't completed said quest I can't opt to advance my sith warrior till I get round to it. Forcing all players to do story arc's even if thats not really their play style in an MMO. Will closer to the date and after Beta tor go down the same route as AoC and take class or advanced class descisions out of the story and place it right at the begining. Giving players right from level 1 a clear feeling of total control.
Or will it be very much like AION where at level 9 you get a stand alone quest complete it some old guy asks you a quest and then your a jugenaut. And if this is the case then why not let people pick from the start so my sith warrior doesn't need to get to level 20 before he can go tank mode or Dps mode? So rather than an amazing option to branch we are instead constrained until this point by game mechaince where no matter how much I want to say duel wield and have the points it doesn't open up till I have killed 1000 more rats or whatever and can unlock the level 20 quest to unlock those feats?
We will definitely have to see how it all plays out. It seems to me to be a more strict version of what WoW has to be honest which is, in and of itself, a bit disappointing. At least in world of warcrap I can tank or switch specs and dps depending on what I am doing and with whom I am doing it.
I guess my feelings are pretty similar to the OP's on this. I'm not blown away by the system, but at least there is a system in there to add some customization. I wondered how they were going to squeeze Vader and Maul into the same class..and this seems to have answered my question pretty well.
This move doesn't surprise me. Considering Damion Shubert's comments on level-based vs. skill-based progression it shows me that the only manner in which they plan to stray from established mmo mores is by "story".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
This page on the SWTOR site explains advanced classes well. It is interesting to note that each class has access to two advanced classes, and if you take one, you no longer have the option of taking the other. The author of the article didn't seem to be aware of this fact...
I like this system. I think it essentially expands the game into 16 unique classes instead of just 8 and it ensures that each player will have a pretty unique character mechanics-wise.
Um, no it doesn't explain their skill system well. Like I said, they don't explain any skill names, requirements, attributes or stats at all. All that link shows is some pretty icons and overview of the skill tree with no details. So, like I said, a whole lot of nothing said by BW once again.
This page on the SWTOR site explains advanced classes well. It is interesting to note that each class has access to two advanced classes, and if you take one, you no longer have the option of taking the other. The author of the article didn't seem to be aware of this fact...
I like this system. I think it essentially expands the game into 16 unique classes instead of just 8 and it ensures that each player will have a pretty unique character mechanics-wise.
Um, no it doesn't explain their skill system well. Like I said, they don't explain any skill names, requirements, attributes or stats at all. All that link shows is some pretty icons and overview of the skill tree with no details. So, like I said, a whole lot of nothing said by BW once again.
It gives you the overall system they will be using, they could have given very different descriptions describing very different systems. What you want are details, but the stats were given away in a different interview, and some skills were shown as well.
Requirements were also given. Every class has 2 sub classes. You can choose 2 subclasses. The talent trees shown are 2 talent trees though they said more could be expected. Every class can choose between those 2. Alignment will open up certain skills for you that others will not be able to access if they are the opposite alignment.
We have quite a bit of information on classes specifically already, but I don't think you'll be getting a play by play anytime soon.
This page on the SWTOR site explains advanced classes well. It is interesting to note that each class has access to two advanced classes, and if you take one, you no longer have the option of taking the other. The author of the article didn't seem to be aware of this fact...
I like this system. I think it essentially expands the game into 16 unique classes instead of just 8 and it ensures that each player will have a pretty unique character mechanics-wise.
Um, no it doesn't explain their skill system well. Like I said, they don't explain any skill names, requirements, attributes or stats at all. All that link shows is some pretty icons and overview of the skill tree with no details. So, like I said, a whole lot of nothing said by BW once again.
It gives you the overall system they will be using, they could have given very different descriptions describing very different systems. What you want are details, but the stats were given away in a different interview, and some skills were shown as well.
Requirements were also given. Every class has 2 sub classes. You can choose 2 subclasses. The talent trees shown are 2 talent trees though they said more could be expected. Every class can choose between those 2. Alignment will open up certain skills for you that others will not be able to access if they are the opposite alignment.
We have quite a bit of information on classes specifically already, but I don't think you'll be getting a play by play anytime soon.
What we have is an overall view, blips of info here and there. AFAIK there hasn't been a breakdown of what you have to do to get to the subclass choice, or what those subclasses even are. What was linked above and what you are saying are an incomplete bullet point list. And I can understand his wanting a more detailed info, but we cant really expect that this soon.
I just hope the class choices aren't something that is veiled in storyline choice and with one click, bam an irrevocable change that you didn't want.
Frankly, I should love this MMO just from face value alone, with it being Bioware and Star Wars. Both are things I have always enjoyed, but somehow this is feeling very hoohum. Even the art style seems off putting with the merger of KoToR style with the more 'modern' look of Star Wars. I dont think they would have been hurt at all by sticking with the KOTOR's style at all. All seems to be the same engine beneath the hood just a new body style.
I think a lot of people have been putting stock into the idea that this addition to the MMO market is going to be mind blowing and open up new doors, forgetting that Bioware themselves said that they weren't trying to reinvent the genre. They add their storytelling depth to the game, they tweak various systems, sometimes just making them their own, other times updating them and making them slightly better.
I think this system has always been solid, I think players of WoW are at a disadvantage because honestly, except for the hybrid classes that can do 3 completely different things (Paladins/Druids) going into a tree really doesn't change the gameplay that much. It may change what weapons you use, and replace one skill for antoher, but really the function the same in World of Warcraft.
Where as in games like Age of Conan, when you went one way or the other you felt as if you were truly defining your character into something particular. A system like this can be good or dull, never really terrible. If you do it well then the trees will allow the player to customize the character to their favored play style. It seems that this is their mission, and if they keep that in mind the entire time the game is in development then I think we are all in for a treat.
I think players over all outlook when it comes to the MMORPG genre is flawed at the core. I think a lot of people think that the MMORPG core concept needs to change for the genre as a whole to move in a better direction. I don't think the gameplay itself is really that bad, I think the games are generally bad. I mean, the stories are generally extremly cliche and rarely intriguing enought o read through quests before we hit "accept". It's the fact that quests are uninteresting and just a veiled excuse to make people kill a certain number of things. I think if developers did what Bioware is telling us they are doing... making the worlds interesting enough to want to explore, making the entire game story driven to the extent that non-MMO role playing games are, etc. can be just as huge a boost to the genre as a core change to the gameplay values could be.
If developers could just make a GOOD game... I personally am still waiting for one.
What it all comes down to is, if these are subclass branches for the classes or if this is the 2 specs for the classes. Like in AoC, you would never spec all general tree, you go one way or the other, or even simpler, in WoW a warrior is DPS or a Tank, both have cookie cutter setups. This just seems like the Sith will be a Tank or DPS, which is ok having 2 choices, but if they have 1 build for each that is the best, then it blows, I want to see multiple ways to do things effectively with all of the classes, that way there is some nice variation since there is really only 4 classes per side.
So basically it's the WoW Talent system...... granted that isn't necessary a bad thing. My only concern would be the amount of balance that plagues ALL games...
This is better than nothing I guess, but even in RoM (which is F2P) there's dual-classes with elite skills for each class combination and talent point mechanic to upgrade your skills.
Ultimately, it's still a single class game with a linear progression and an awesome (I hope) story behind the whole package. It won't change much if your class-name becomes something else while you still retain your old skills.
This could be interesting, however, if players are required to go through a quest line to become something bigger and more powerful and to get access to new skills and/or equipment. I don't want to see more of this 'this-is-a-heroclass-and-it starts-from higher-level' -crap ever again in any game.
Classses, sub classes, levels, talent trees, extreme soloability and quest driven progression. I know it is what sells in today's marketplace, but I'm just done with that design.
Oh well, for those who still enjoy this type of game I'm sure it will be terrific, Bioware usually does a great job in packaging and presentation.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
There are four trees, two for each "advanced class." I guess the core skill system would be a fifth tree.
Same old... same old. I was extremely pumped up for this game, but I feel more and more distant the more info I read.
I really don't care how they do it , long as it's fun. But I really don't see this being any different than any other tree type system. There is one spec that is always better, and most people will choose it, several who don't know how to play the current game will pick almost any other skill in the trees at random with no thought process and a few others will choose w/e they want with disregard to what spec is best and play what they find is fun.
Hopefully they can fidn a way to make all the skills in the trees viable which is generally easier said than done. Either way, I can't wait till its out and I can play!
Nothing new. Bioware have had Sub-specs in all the games i've played. ME, KOTOR, DragonAge and ME2.
I already expected this to be in their MMO ever since i heard about SWTOR.
Well, I would just say that how can people be complaining about more options for the classes. It seems crazy now that some were saying that SW:TOR would be linear...there are just so many options open to players now that we are talking a game that has some serious sandbox parts to it now. Mix into that a plot filled, story heavy, instanced to make it fun, solo or group friendly, end-game interesting, PvP/RvR fantastic blast of an mmo for next year!
The progressive news is great. The news, not necessarily that they are following the mmorpg path, but the news about continued little details on the game is good.
I also hope, though it's been shown to be be very challenging, that the sub classes are resourceful and in different ways, necessary, productive to solo and team play, and engaging.
How is this greater than talent trees for each class in wow?
If you want to hire Machete to kill the bad guys, you better make damn sure the bad guy isnt you!
I don't think TOR > WOW applies to this.
Without hands on knowledge or at least a hint at what sort of stats / game play consequences our choices have it's more like.. TOR ≈ Everything else.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
While this will hopefully be great, it does not seem to be anything new. If you take AoC it has a very similar system and was originally going to have your choices based in game. You started off as a level 1 slave and then at level 5 got to pick soldier, mage, priest or rogue and then at level 20 choose your advanced class. They scrapped it though and allowed people to pick what they wanted to play at level 1 so you could start getting those feats or skills early on. So will this advanced system end up being more of a pain than an advantage where cause I haven't completed said quest I can't opt to advance my sith warrior till I get round to it. Forcing all players to do story arc's even if thats not really their play style in an MMO. Will closer to the date and after Beta tor go down the same route as AoC and take class or advanced class descisions out of the story and place it right at the begining. Giving players right from level 1 a clear feeling of total control.
Or will it be very much like AION where at level 9 you get a stand alone quest complete it some old guy asks you a quest and then your a jugenaut. And if this is the case then why not let people pick from the start so my sith warrior doesn't need to get to level 20 before he can go tank mode or Dps mode? So rather than an amazing option to branch we are instead constrained until this point by game mechaince where no matter how much I want to say duel wield and have the points it doesn't open up till I have killed 1000 more rats or whatever and can unlock the level 20 quest to unlock those feats?
We will definitely have to see how it all plays out. It seems to me to be a more strict version of what WoW has to be honest which is, in and of itself, a bit disappointing. At least in world of warcrap I can tank or switch specs and dps depending on what I am doing and with whom I am doing it.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I guess my feelings are pretty similar to the OP's on this. I'm not blown away by the system, but at least there is a system in there to add some customization. I wondered how they were going to squeeze Vader and Maul into the same class..and this seems to have answered my question pretty well.
So release it already!:)
This move doesn't surprise me. Considering Damion Shubert's comments on level-based vs. skill-based progression it shows me that the only manner in which they plan to stray from established mmo mores is by "story".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Um, no it doesn't explain their skill system well. Like I said, they don't explain any skill names, requirements, attributes or stats at all. All that link shows is some pretty icons and overview of the skill tree with no details. So, like I said, a whole lot of nothing said by BW once again.
It gives you the overall system they will be using, they could have given very different descriptions describing very different systems. What you want are details, but the stats were given away in a different interview, and some skills were shown as well.
Requirements were also given. Every class has 2 sub classes. You can choose 2 subclasses. The talent trees shown are 2 talent trees though they said more could be expected. Every class can choose between those 2. Alignment will open up certain skills for you that others will not be able to access if they are the opposite alignment.
We have quite a bit of information on classes specifically already, but I don't think you'll be getting a play by play anytime soon.
What we have is an overall view, blips of info here and there. AFAIK there hasn't been a breakdown of what you have to do to get to the subclass choice, or what those subclasses even are. What was linked above and what you are saying are an incomplete bullet point list. And I can understand his wanting a more detailed info, but we cant really expect that this soon.
I just hope the class choices aren't something that is veiled in storyline choice and with one click, bam an irrevocable change that you didn't want.
Frankly, I should love this MMO just from face value alone, with it being Bioware and Star Wars. Both are things I have always enjoyed, but somehow this is feeling very hoohum. Even the art style seems off putting with the merger of KoToR style with the more 'modern' look of Star Wars. I dont think they would have been hurt at all by sticking with the KOTOR's style at all. All seems to be the same engine beneath the hood just a new body style.
I think a lot of people have been putting stock into the idea that this addition to the MMO market is going to be mind blowing and open up new doors, forgetting that Bioware themselves said that they weren't trying to reinvent the genre. They add their storytelling depth to the game, they tweak various systems, sometimes just making them their own, other times updating them and making them slightly better.
I think this system has always been solid, I think players of WoW are at a disadvantage because honestly, except for the hybrid classes that can do 3 completely different things (Paladins/Druids) going into a tree really doesn't change the gameplay that much. It may change what weapons you use, and replace one skill for antoher, but really the function the same in World of Warcraft.
Where as in games like Age of Conan, when you went one way or the other you felt as if you were truly defining your character into something particular. A system like this can be good or dull, never really terrible. If you do it well then the trees will allow the player to customize the character to their favored play style. It seems that this is their mission, and if they keep that in mind the entire time the game is in development then I think we are all in for a treat.
I think players over all outlook when it comes to the MMORPG genre is flawed at the core. I think a lot of people think that the MMORPG core concept needs to change for the genre as a whole to move in a better direction. I don't think the gameplay itself is really that bad, I think the games are generally bad. I mean, the stories are generally extremly cliche and rarely intriguing enought o read through quests before we hit "accept". It's the fact that quests are uninteresting and just a veiled excuse to make people kill a certain number of things. I think if developers did what Bioware is telling us they are doing... making the worlds interesting enough to want to explore, making the entire game story driven to the extent that non-MMO role playing games are, etc. can be just as huge a boost to the genre as a core change to the gameplay values could be.
If developers could just make a GOOD game... I personally am still waiting for one.
What it all comes down to is, if these are subclass branches for the classes or if this is the 2 specs for the classes. Like in AoC, you would never spec all general tree, you go one way or the other, or even simpler, in WoW a warrior is DPS or a Tank, both have cookie cutter setups. This just seems like the Sith will be a Tank or DPS, which is ok having 2 choices, but if they have 1 build for each that is the best, then it blows, I want to see multiple ways to do things effectively with all of the classes, that way there is some nice variation since there is really only 4 classes per side.
So basically it's the WoW Talent system...... granted that isn't necessary a bad thing. My only concern would be the amount of balance that plagues ALL games...
This is better than nothing I guess, but even in RoM (which is F2P) there's dual-classes with elite skills for each class combination and talent point mechanic to upgrade your skills.
Ultimately, it's still a single class game with a linear progression and an awesome (I hope) story behind the whole package. It won't change much if your class-name becomes something else while you still retain your old skills.
This could be interesting, however, if players are required to go through a quest line to become something bigger and more powerful and to get access to new skills and/or equipment. I don't want to see more of this 'this-is-a-heroclass-and-it starts-from higher-level' -crap ever again in any game.
Nihil novi sub sole...
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I'm a high-tech low-life. A cutting-edge, state-of-the-art, bi-coastal multi-tasker, and I can give you a gigabyte in a nanosecond.
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I'm a hot-wired, heat-seeking, warm-hearted cool customer; voice-activated and bio-degradable.
RIP George Carlin.
I heard on SWTOR forums that the game might release this coming oct. I friggin hope so I can't wait to play it.
“much most mainstream MMOs to date” – I think he meant ‘like most’, grammer!
I got so little infomatin out of this “article” the spelling error was all I noticed.
its kinda sad that this game is just gonna be a cookie cutter version of every other wow clone with a star wars skin.
and id sure like to hear about something other then voiced over quests and classes/combat soon. or is that all the game is?
Agreed. Another clone on the market.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Classses, sub classes, levels, talent trees, extreme soloability and quest driven progression. I know it is what sells in today's marketplace, but I'm just done with that design.
Oh well, for those who still enjoy this type of game I'm sure it will be terrific, Bioware usually does a great job in packaging and presentation.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon