I do like some theme park games, GW is one. I'm not sure about GW2 though, I'd rather they stick to the hardcore theme park. And I like sandbox games, pure ones with little or no instancing. So I'm not trying to be biased to one over the other, though I like sandbox best, but it's good to have games like GW to change pace as I usually play more than one game at a time.
Never played Wurm, not sure how elaborate mining is. Oh, I bet they use blitz3D terrains, yes that has basic deformity. I haven’t seen anything as far as really advance deformity for a terrain system, not yet at least, and I've used many terrain editors, even make really good looking terrain textures for some. If anyone does anything advanced with that, it'd probably be a sandbox game, apart form theme parks where you could make craters from explosives.
The only thing close to player driven quests I've seen (apart from a couple in SecondLife) is in UO with the bartender hireling. You could give them a rumor that players could tip for. I always wanted to see something far more advanced to be done with that in some game. Like guild owned questing npc's and the ability to dump quest rewards on the NPC to give out like player crafted items when the quest is completed.
For what it's worth I'd probably prefer a game with the features you mentioned to something completely new (partially because I am struggling to think of something completely new). I covet the features you mentioned, I just didn't understand why you posted them at the time.
As for Wurms terraforming don't rule it out as basic. It is as advanced as it needs to be. You can carve out a tunnel through an entire mountain if you want and some players have. I don't know how they do it technically but I can tell you that they use small tiles for the terrain. I'd prefer more advanced player driven quest too but they exisit in one form (normally bounties) or another already.
The difference, and where the breakdown is in almost every argument about mmo gameplay dynamics is this:
Do you want the mmo to provide you with the environment/dynamics to create your own fun with the other people in the game world;
or
Do you want the mmo to deliver the fun to you.
The mmo as fun delivery system is currently in the ascendent.
it's a curiously popular misconception that these content delivery techniques must be mutually exclusive.
Go on
There's no reason at all why a game can't deliver BOTH of these things.
And I think we may see that illustrated quite nicely in an upcoming MMORPG title, in fact. The perfect melding of a sandbox game world, including tools for players to generate their own content, with plenty of pre-designed content to enjoy besides.
The "perfect" game isn't a sandbox, or a themepark....it's a combination of both.
Ok, the problem I think is there is no such thing as a perfect game. People want different things and some of the things people want are mutually exclusive if not because the ideas are opposed to each other, then because time and money constraints force a developer to have to choose.
My point now is that the division of the MMO playerbase is between the dynamics that for one reason or another ARE mutually exclusive and the dividing line can best be summed up by asking whether you want to the game to make your own fun, or whether you want fun delivered to you by the game.
Hah yeah who needs a dynamic world with player cities, elected mayors, crafting, hirelings, events with armies of mobs attacking player cities, player/guild castles to siege, forests you can plant, farms you can own, digging mines with terrain deformity, fishing, treasure-hunting, taming wild mounts, player owned ships, player made quests, etc etc etc…
You mentioned that you did not play wurm before but i am shocked when i read the exact same features of wurm with your writing.
For the terraforming feature, wurm is really awesome on that, you should see by yourself what a hardwork labor can do in a terraformable game
While Red dead redemption does not have crafting in any way shape or form,once this things hits the pc world its going to break records. It's how pc games should be done. Once a gaming company picks up this style of game with crafting and possibly terraforming as well... look out.
It's open ended and definately sand box style. you do not need to follow the quest to have fun. there is a great review of the game on tentonhammer. check it out.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
Hah yeah who needs a dynamic world with player cities, elected mayors, crafting, hirelings, events with armies of mobs attacking player cities, player/guild castles to siege, forests you can plant, farms you can own, digging mines with terrain deformity, fishing, treasure-hunting, taming wild mounts, player owned ships, player made quests, etc etc etc…
You mentioned that you did not play wurm before but i am shocked when i read the exact same features of wurm with your writing.
For the terraforming feature, wurm is really awesome on that, you should see by yourself what a hardwork labor can do in a terraformable game
As fantastic as wurm is for those particualr features, it does have some glaring shortcomings.
The graphics, particularly the character and monster/animal models, leave a lot to be desired, especially concerning animations. It's just tolerable for me, but I'm sure there are many who would be bothered by this.
The UI is extremely unpolished. Takes a while to get used to, but it's still very basic and difficult to go through.
The combat is very, very clunky. It feels more like a MUD combat system was stapled onto the game, and just feels completely out of place.
Of course, it is mostly just one guy making the game, so of course there are more limitations in design than usual... also because it uses java. I'm sure were a development studio to take many of this game's concepts and flesh it out on the aspects that are lacking, and program it in a C language, it could make for a very amazing game.
Hah yeah who needs a dynamic world with player cities, elected mayors, crafting, hirelings, events with armies of mobs attacking player cities, player/guild castles to siege, forests you can plant, farms you can own, digging mines with terrain deformity, fishing, treasure-hunting, taming wild mounts, player owned ships, player made quests, etc etc etc…
You mentioned that you did not play wurm before but i am shocked when i read the exact same features of wurm with your writing.
For the terraforming feature, wurm is really awesome on that, you should see by yourself what a hardwork labor can do in a terraformable game
It’s not really a list, it’s not like a “I want this in my game” list as many of the threads at mmorpg dot com are about. It’s a comparison of features that are not compatible with the “new” games put out by AAA publishers. Where are all (any) the latest and greatest games moving these features and mechanics forward? It’s like they all took a couple steps back… more into CRPG gaming but with an mmo twist to sell subs. Sure, indies will do stuff like that, but how is it too chancy for AAA’s compared to copying the same features into 100’s of games and just put a different face on it? That’s a really bad business model headed for failure just like CRPG has done a number of times.
So yeah, I really want boundless, free roaming mmorpg’s, because compared to the new stuff, they have plenty of room for innovation while the new stuff is headed to failure like CRPG’s did.
Not because they are sandbox, but because the implementation is underfunded or crappy. Polish and implementation are everything, almost.
Maybe. I used to have the same opinion. I had that opinion because of my personal preference (I prefer sandbox to themepark games) and it is easier to imagine people enjoying the same things as you, because you understand why you enjoy them than it is to understand why someone enjoys something you dislike. Atleast that was the reason I used to have the same opinion.
I have my doubts now though. As someone who plays games fairly intensely I think it's just as plausible that because themepark games (by definition) guide the player through the game that they are far more casual friendly than sandbox games.
.
"Classic" SWG and UO were two of the most casual friendly MMOs out there. Sandbox usually means appeasing different playstyles in such a way that people can just play a little, and not feel like they're way behind some sort of leveling curve. EVE is different, but then again, EVE is different in lots of ways. Other than those three, there are no sandbox games to even look at for comparison. None that can be taken seriously, and until someone at least gives it a shot, debating their viability seems pointless. I think that from what little evidence we have, a half decent one would be popular, among both hardcore vets and newbie casuals alike.
Course, "fun" trumps all, but that comes back to the issue of games that aren't crappy, whether a sandbox or a themepark that somehow advances the genre, instead of using a same-old same-old formula. I've never liked games of any genre that feel too been-there-done-that, and MMOs almost all feel that way.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Awww, c'mon now.. Bringing up fun is silly. You can have fun in whatever game yer playing, it depends upon the people yer playing with that really matters. Long term is another matter.
Fun is subjective. I would love to play pretty pretty pony (MMO) and knock "Tiffany" off her "rainbow unicorn" and then disenbowl her mount. That would be "fun" for me. Others might find it "fun" to rez the thing, and feed it magical rice cakes and happy happy tofu stars.
No game will ever be perfect, it's all about finding a "good" game, and "great" people to play with.
I happen to play EvE. My main focus is industrial. Is mining and salvaging fun? Hell no!!. But when I am with my friends drinking a few and bullshitting on vent while mining..Thats fun!! If yer a loner, and play MMO's, you need to find another hobby IMO.(fps anyone?) If "fun" equates with the mechanics of the game, then yer missing the whole point..disclaimer: As long as it's not a Craptic game.. I'd have more "fun" sticking a red hot rail spike through my fucking head, rather than play STO. Friends or no friends.
Sandbox MMO's can be fun sometimes, but in my experience sandbox MMO's are like youtube or the blogging craze. The tools are their to do cool things, but the general public just end up creating crap that no one should see. Most do nothing, or do nothing meaningful creative that justifies me caring. The sandbox MMO usually gets overrun with griefers that like to destroy the world not create anything. I would have confidence in sandbox MMO's if I had confidence in the creativity of the general public. If their was a chance for sandbox MMO's it would of been done already as an open source project, because that group would of banded together and created a world, but since I don't see that I come to the conclusion that no one cares about creating a world.
Comments
For what it's worth I'd probably prefer a game with the features you mentioned to something completely new (partially because I am struggling to think of something completely new). I covet the features you mentioned, I just didn't understand why you posted them at the time.
As for Wurms terraforming don't rule it out as basic. It is as advanced as it needs to be. You can carve out a tunnel through an entire mountain if you want and some players have. I don't know how they do it technically but I can tell you that they use small tiles for the terrain. I'd prefer more advanced player driven quest too but they exisit in one form (normally bounties) or another already.
Ok, the problem I think is there is no such thing as a perfect game. People want different things and some of the things people want are mutually exclusive if not because the ideas are opposed to each other, then because time and money constraints force a developer to have to choose.
My point now is that the division of the MMO playerbase is between the dynamics that for one reason or another ARE mutually exclusive and the dividing line can best be summed up by asking whether you want to the game to make your own fun, or whether you want fun delivered to you by the game.
You mentioned that you did not play wurm before but i am shocked when i read the exact same features of wurm with your writing.
For the terraforming feature, wurm is really awesome on that, you should see by yourself what a hardwork labor can do in a terraformable game
While Red dead redemption does not have crafting in any way shape or form,once this things hits the pc world its going to break records. It's how pc games should be done. Once a gaming company picks up this style of game with crafting and possibly terraforming as well... look out.
It's open ended and definately sand box style. you do not need to follow the quest to have fun. there is a great review of the game on tentonhammer. check it out.
played M59,UO,lineage,EQ,Daoc,Entropia,SWG,Horizons,Lineage2.EQ2,Vangaurd,Irth online, DarkFall,Star Trek
and many others that did not make the cut or i just plain forgetting about.
New and fun is completely satisfactory for me.
As fantastic as wurm is for those particualr features, it does have some glaring shortcomings.
The graphics, particularly the character and monster/animal models, leave a lot to be desired, especially concerning animations. It's just tolerable for me, but I'm sure there are many who would be bothered by this.
The UI is extremely unpolished. Takes a while to get used to, but it's still very basic and difficult to go through.
The combat is very, very clunky. It feels more like a MUD combat system was stapled onto the game, and just feels completely out of place.
Of course, it is mostly just one guy making the game, so of course there are more limitations in design than usual... also because it uses java. I'm sure were a development studio to take many of this game's concepts and flesh it out on the aspects that are lacking, and program it in a C language, it could make for a very amazing game.
It’s not really a list, it’s not like a “I want this in my game” list as many of the threads at mmorpg dot com are about. It’s a comparison of features that are not compatible with the “new” games put out by AAA publishers. Where are all (any) the latest and greatest games moving these features and mechanics forward? It’s like they all took a couple steps back… more into CRPG gaming but with an mmo twist to sell subs. Sure, indies will do stuff like that, but how is it too chancy for AAA’s compared to copying the same features into 100’s of games and just put a different face on it? That’s a really bad business model headed for failure just like CRPG has done a number of times.
So yeah, I really want boundless, free roaming mmorpg’s, because compared to the new stuff, they have plenty of room for innovation while the new stuff is headed to failure like CRPG’s did.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
"Do we really want a boundless, freee roaming MMORPG?"
Yes, next question.
"Classic" SWG and UO were two of the most casual friendly MMOs out there. Sandbox usually means appeasing different playstyles in such a way that people can just play a little, and not feel like they're way behind some sort of leveling curve. EVE is different, but then again, EVE is different in lots of ways. Other than those three, there are no sandbox games to even look at for comparison. None that can be taken seriously, and until someone at least gives it a shot, debating their viability seems pointless. I think that from what little evidence we have, a half decent one would be popular, among both hardcore vets and newbie casuals alike.
Course, "fun" trumps all, but that comes back to the issue of games that aren't crappy, whether a sandbox or a themepark that somehow advances the genre, instead of using a same-old same-old formula. I've never liked games of any genre that feel too been-there-done-that, and MMOs almost all feel that way.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Awww, c'mon now.. Bringing up fun is silly. You can have fun in whatever game yer playing, it depends upon the people yer playing with that really matters. Long term is another matter.
Fun is subjective. I would love to play pretty pretty pony (MMO) and knock "Tiffany" off her "rainbow unicorn" and then disenbowl her mount. That would be "fun" for me. Others might find it "fun" to rez the thing, and feed it magical rice cakes and happy happy tofu stars.
No game will ever be perfect, it's all about finding a "good" game, and "great" people to play with.
I happen to play EvE. My main focus is industrial. Is mining and salvaging fun? Hell no!!. But when I am with my friends drinking a few and bullshitting on vent while mining..Thats fun!! If yer a loner, and play MMO's, you need to find another hobby IMO.(fps anyone?) If "fun" equates with the mechanics of the game, then yer missing the whole point..disclaimer: As long as it's not a Craptic game.. I'd have more "fun" sticking a red hot rail spike through my fucking head, rather than play STO. Friends or no friends.
Sandbox MMO's can be fun sometimes, but in my experience sandbox MMO's are like youtube or the blogging craze. The tools are their to do cool things, but the general public just end up creating crap that no one should see. Most do nothing, or do nothing meaningful creative that justifies me caring. The sandbox MMO usually gets overrun with griefers that like to destroy the world not create anything. I would have confidence in sandbox MMO's if I had confidence in the creativity of the general public. If their was a chance for sandbox MMO's it would of been done already as an open source project, because that group would of banded together and created a world, but since I don't see that I come to the conclusion that no one cares about creating a world.