Bioware is saying "If your MMO doesn't have possibly hundreds of hours of voice-overs with thousands of quests, then your game is pointless." and that has to be the biggest epic fail ever. WoW, FFXI, WAR, and even Aion has thousands of quests and yes a lot of them are actually interesting if a player finds the time to read the dialog.
I honestly find it increasely difficult to not hope SW:TOR doesn't fail with the attitude that Bioware presents almost everytime they release information.
"Look, look! We are making the best MMO ever.... but this game is really KOTOR3 played online"
sandbox MMO's are like youtube or the blogging craze. The tools are their to do cool things, but the general public just end up creating crap that no one should see. Most do nothing, or do nothing meaningful creative that justifies me caring. The sandbox MMO usually gets overrun with griefers that like to destroy the world not create anything. I would have confidence in sandbox MMO's if I had confidence in the creativity of the general public. If their was a chance for sandbox MMO's it would of been done already as an open source project, because that group would of banded together and created a world, but since I don't see that I come to the conclusion that no one cares about creating a world.
Bioware is saying "If your MMO doesn't have possibly hundreds of hours of voice-overs with thousands of quests, then your game is pointless." and that has to be the biggest epic fail ever. WoW, FFXI, WAR, and even Aion has thousands of quests and yes a lot of them are actually interesting if a player finds the time to read the dialog.
I honestly find it increasely difficult to not hope SW:TOR doesn't fail with the attitude that Bioware presents almost everytime they release information.
"Look, look! We are making the best MMO ever.... but this game is really KOTOR3 played online"
Ludicrous. What did doing the quests in crossroad alter besides your experience bar? It changed nothing long term. For the time I played aion (mid 20s) nothing I did was meaninful, nothing I did was fun. Horrible example. And good luck with FFXI, getting to the story should be uninteresting, partially due to the slow grindy combat the game has chosen to go with. I won't even comment on WAR, first MMO I've uninstalled after 15 minutes of play.
What BioWare has said is they're putting the RPG back in MMO. WoW is not an MMORPG, that is very apparent today, with it's mostly empty zones. Everybody is to busy transforming it into a lobby game, standing in Dal, or your faction city waiting for queues all day. This isn't a story, you're just doing things because you have to.
What is wrong with what he said exactly?
"There was no story, there was no point. You just kind of wandered around. And that hasn't really changed all that much over the years."
And this is true, what is the driving force to WoW? To get better gear, more levels, more gold, just more...stuff? That's it? This isn't a goal and certainlly doesn't sounds like an RPG. But you know, the tools will continue to disagree, WoW has meaningless quests, it also recycles bosses (Cata will be Onyxia #3, Rag #2, Nef #2), it's starting to sound like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, with an endless supply of Senzu Beans. Half assed story telling is what most MMOs offer.
And before you say sandbox, not enough players possess the creativity to make them even remotely popular.
"you shouldn't be trying to ignore all of the content to get to the end as fast as possible"
If you disagree with this you shouldn't even be playing MMOs. The goal should never, ever be max level. The adventure you take whether with friends or on your own, is what should be looked forward to.
"I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever. But it's still not the interesting content you'd expect in a single-player game."
Something many are improperly reading. The final sentence should have gotten you back on track. He isn't saying you need to make an MMO into a SP for it to have good content, he's saying MMOs use interesting content to get you hooked, then it slowly starts to simplifiy, nothing is interesting anymore. It's a simple bait and switch or total laziness. He continues to say it's not the interesting content you would expect in a SPRG. Has nothing to do with turning the genre into a SP experience.
Nothing he said was incorrect. But you've once said I 'mindlessly' agree, and for that I say you're just mad bro. k?
LoL yea like someone at Bioware knows anything about mmorpgs. Isn't this guy a failed movie writer out of Austin?. Plus, who gives a shit about the old republic. sw:tor = fail. Get the goddamn license away from SOE and do it right. GOD DAMNIT!
LoL yea like someone at Bioware knows anything about mmorpgs. Isn't this guy a failed movie writer out of Austin?. Plus, who gives a shit about the old republic. sw:tor = fail. Get the goddamn license away from SOE and do it right. GOD DAMNIT!
Don't know if this post was meant as sarcasm or if this was an honest outright failure. Should I laugh or give him the correct information?
Mario with full voice overs and in game cinematics. Would it be better?
Bioware will have much to prove at E3, because pre recorded audio and cinematics are not the kind of content eager hands will want to test.
The guy reminds me of that old FunCom Director of Age of Conan fame: our MMo is filet mignon compared to a hamburger.
It's his neck, not mine. Perhaps the man should have played more than AoC, one of many MMo's who lost 90% of its players in 3 months time.
90% of Dragon Age players finished the game in 3 weeks.
Single story telling tales don't last long. MMo players play along the Lore settings never along single story lines.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I agree 100% when he said that MMO's today only give u 20 lv's then grind your life away. AoC fully VO till 20 then drop u in a middle of a town with no idea. Aion 1st 20 lv a great story fun as hell. Then they throw u in a zone where u got ppl with no job or toke vaction ganking u when u are tring to find a quest or do a quest. I like PvP but there need's to be limit's over 5 lv above u shouldn't be able to attack u. It isn't fun at all for the guy who got gank or the Ganker. I guess some idoit's think ganking lowbe is fun . Wow I killed u in 2 hit's good for u come back when I'm capped and talk prick. STO 1st 7 lv good story then junk. Of corse STO wasn't finished half the missions wasn't ready at lunch.While I could go on for ever,But it just show's me They know there stuff and it make's me fill good about release Day. Great work Bioware keep up the good work. Oh Yeah come on and release it at 80-90% I can't wait no more going nut's. hehe
I fullheartedly agree Lobotomist! But theres no point trying to explain it to them though. Just as SOE, their mind is set in stone and nothing can budge them from the decided path...
I Hate to point anyone out. BUT it is ppl like u that make me laugh.U haveen't done no research read any info that is out there. If u READ even a 1/3 of the info out on ToR u would know that the story isn't something u got to do. Same with Getting Comp.(Pets) There is Open world Quest,Drop Quest, u can just Grind out in the open world. With 16 Plantets each plantet big as Big as Outlands in WoW. Not to say anything about End game Instance's and PvP. They said they are gong to do some PvP like War so be rdy for taking over stuff. (like Keep's on War) Then of corse u got Glove's,Bracers,belt's,helm's,cloak's,chest and leggin's, 2 melee and 1 range duel slot's. it will take u hour's to run from one side of the plantet to the other. Like going from Darn. to TB while really alot longer then that. We already saw Swoop's at low lv area's prolly Like the FP's in WoW. Bioware said they want this to be a Mix of ever MMO.Sandbox,RPG,PvP,Community,Econ. and Deep Story for the ppl that like that. Which it is about time we get a good story. As for Your Comp. (pets) They said u have the chance to get 5+ ( A Healier,Tank,Dps,Range Dps,Buff, and Healier) This way u don't got to wait 3 hr's looking for a Healier to do a Instance if u got 4 ppl and no healier anyone in your group with a healier pet can bring them. U can only use one Pet at a time. I for one hate wanting for a Healier and most of the time there tired because there is a lack of healiers. To many CUPCAKE"S LIKE THE HEAVY DPS so they can say I was the 1st one to 50 woot good for u. As for the story u can Skip it anyway's. They add the skip button of corse for instance and Raid where u run 10-20 time's for everyone to get loot or there set piece's. There is Fall damage and all those goodie's. I know there is alot QQ becase they have the Tank's and what not ( there not named tank's and dps. There defenders, aggresser, healier's, and guess Crowd control is crowd control hehe.) But Like I ALWAYS SAY IF IT"S NOT BROKE TO FIX IT> The Tank,DPS,CC, and Healier thing I think is a Must for a MMO so u got good group's and good fight's. Anyone who plaied a Pally and fought another Pally for 2 hr's and decide to call it a draw or while u was fighting called for back up know's that everyone healing is no good for PvP or PvE instance's. I'm uselly a healier and I know when I'm on my alt with a Noob Healier it make's for a long run and uselly a wipe and a waste of a run.
They need to let u edit your Post. :-( anyways for the PvP and Pve ppl. They said they will have Rp,PvE, and PvP server's so cheer up u Open world Ganker's.
i think what people seek from mmos is , people. Aoc taught me that i wanted human interaction more than anything else , people running around mindlessly grinding and no one does anything to interact. just like WoW. quest and turn in quest and turn in. then i hit a button and i run a dungeon and we dont talk for the half hour.
BRING THE PEOPLE TOGETHER AND YOU WILL HAVE A MILLION DOLLAR MMO.
"Hey ! Our MMO is not really a MMO but a single player game with a sub. Lets justify it by an attempt to change what MMORPG really is and no one will notice !"
If you, for one minute think an MMORPG is nothing more than grinding and dungeon crawling for better gear than you my friend have a problem. No where in his statement he said TOR is a single player game with a sub. If you knew how to actually comphrehend, you would have understood that he was making a point on how most mmo's pretty much sets you on a grinding treadmill that leads you to end game with even more grinding for gear.
If you actually knew anything about my point of view at present MMORPG trends you would have understand that I am completely agaist replacing actual game content with grind. I only doubt that building a strong story line with no replayablility value whatssover is the best direction for MMORPG evolution. BTW I doubt that SWTOR will be grindless.
Honestly, I must fully agree with Mr Erickson. I love Pen & Paper RPGs, and for me the old fashioned MMOs always lacked the story I was seeking. I am greatly looking forward to it, and as I see it many other MMOs coming in the future also have an emphasis on story. I mean, in the end sandbox gaming was always quite boring, when your only reason to kill things is "because they are there". I can do group hunts in some forest only so often before it bores me. I guess most people critizising this new idea of story still have the old fashioned quest concept in mind, but I think SWTOR will be on an altogether different level of MMO gaming. In games like EQ or WOW, you do a quest, yes there is a story attached, but it doesnt really impact or bite you back. In TOR it is (as I understand it) supposed to have impact and meaning, so it is something very different. I greatly enjoyed those story-heavy parts of AoC - Tortage and the LOTRO books quests. For me the addition to story to MMO is a bit of the same level revolutionary as 3d graphics were once.
EDIT: I don't understand how people can be mad about something that isn't even out yet! I mean, what did this guy say other than what we know about TOR from the very first hour? You guys act like you never head before that TOR will be about story as an important part. They also said, it will be a mix between the extremes of theme park and sandbox. So you can expect your "aimless hunting" and sandboxish parts also. So what is the fuzz about? Sure, its no UO. But they never claimed it would be.
You don't like strawberry ice? Fine. Don't buy. But don't yell at people all the time who do like it.
Bioware is saying "If your MMO doesn't have possibly hundreds of hours of voice-overs with thousands of quests, then your game is pointless." and that has to be the biggest epic fail ever. WoW, FFXI, WAR, and even Aion has thousands of quests and yes a lot of them are actually interesting if a player finds the time to read the dialog.
I honestly find it increasely difficult to not hope SW:TOR doesn't fail with the attitude that Bioware presents almost everytime they release information.
"Look, look! We are making the best MMO ever.... but this game is really KOTOR3 played online"
Ludicrous. What did doing the quests in crossroad alter besides your experience bar? It changed nothing long term. For the time I played aion (mid 20s) nothing I did was meaninful, nothing I did was fun. Horrible example. And good luck with FFXI, getting to the story should be uninteresting, partially due to the slow grindy combat the game has chosen to go with. I won't even comment on WAR, first MMO I've uninstalled after 15 minutes of play.
What BioWare has said is they're putting the RPG back in MMO. WoW is not an MMORPG, that is very apparent today, with it's mostly empty zones. Everybody is to busy transforming it into a lobby game, standing in Dal, or your faction city waiting for queues all day. This isn't a story, you're just doing things because you have to.
What is wrong with what he said exactly?
"There was no story, there was no point. You just kind of wandered around. And that hasn't really changed all that much over the years."
And this is true, what is the driving force to WoW? To get better gear, more levels, more gold, just more...stuff? That's it? This isn't a goal and certainlly doesn't sounds like an RPG. But you know, the tools will continue to disagree, WoW has meaningless quests, it also recycles bosses (Cata will be Onyxia #3, Rag #2, Nef #2), it's starting to sound like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, with an endless supply of Senzu Beans. Half assed story telling is what most MMOs offer.
And before you say sandbox, not enough players possess the creativity to make them even remotely popular.
"you shouldn't be trying to ignore all of the content to get to the end as fast as possible"
If you disagree with this you shouldn't even be playing MMOs. The goal should never, ever be max level. The adventure you take whether with friends or on your own, is what should be looked forward to.
"I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever. But it's still not the interesting content you'd expect in a single-player game."
Something many are improperly reading. The final sentence should have gotten you back on track. He isn't saying you need to make an MMO into a SP for it to have good content, he's saying MMOs use interesting content to get you hooked, then it slowly starts to simplifiy, nothing is interesting anymore. It's a simple bait and switch or total laziness. He continues to say it's not the interesting content you would expect in a SPRG. Has nothing to do with turning the genre into a SP experience.
Nothing he said was incorrect. But you've once said I 'mindlessly' agree, and for that I say you're just mad bro. k?
I will stand by my statement about him being wrong. MMO's are not single-player games. MMORPG's are not single-player RPG games. If you want single player content then you play single player games. MMO's should not be designed with a single-player concept ever! While MMORPGs and RPGs clearly share many elements they are completely different monsters. FFXIII was a great game and I stopped playing it after i finished it's story which took a week of play. You play MMO's for months if not years so if Bioware believes they can dish out new single-player quality RPG content faster than their player base can clear it they in for a seriously fall.
MMORPGs aren't meant to be RPG games. While putting the RPG in, I wonder if they forgot about the MMO. Where is the "Massive Multiplayer" in SW:TOR? All I see is an RPG trying to play itself off as an MMO.
All I see is another item based / gear based / level based, cut copy and paste theme-park MMO in Star Wars skin. No point to existing MMOs is a really cocky and bold thing to state about other MMO's when their game is the same thing. Another great IP bites the dust....
Bioware is saying "If your MMO doesn't have possibly hundreds of hours of voice-overs with thousands of quests, then your game is pointless." and that has to be the biggest epic fail ever. WoW, FFXI, WAR, and even Aion has thousands of quests and yes a lot of them are actually interesting if a player finds the time to read the dialog.
I honestly find it increasely difficult to not hope SW:TOR doesn't fail with the attitude that Bioware presents almost everytime they release information.
"Look, look! We are making the best MMO ever.... but this game is really KOTOR3 played online"
Ludicrous. What did doing the quests in crossroad alter besides your experience bar? It changed nothing long term. For the time I played aion (mid 20s) nothing I did was meaninful, nothing I did was fun. Horrible example. And good luck with FFXI, getting to the story should be uninteresting, partially due to the slow grindy combat the game has chosen to go with. I won't even comment on WAR, first MMO I've uninstalled after 15 minutes of play.
What BioWare has said is they're putting the RPG back in MMO. WoW is not an MMORPG, that is very apparent today, with it's mostly empty zones. Everybody is to busy transforming it into a lobby game, standing in Dal, or your faction city waiting for queues all day. This isn't a story, you're just doing things because you have to.
What is wrong with what he said exactly?
"There was no story, there was no point. You just kind of wandered around. And that hasn't really changed all that much over the years."
And this is true, what is the driving force to WoW? To get better gear, more levels, more gold, just more...stuff? That's it? This isn't a goal and certainlly doesn't sounds like an RPG. But you know, the tools will continue to disagree, WoW has meaningless quests, it also recycles bosses (Cata will be Onyxia #3, Rag #2, Nef #2), it's starting to sound like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, with an endless supply of Senzu Beans. Half assed story telling is what most MMOs offer.
And before you say sandbox, not enough players possess the creativity to make them even remotely popular.
"you shouldn't be trying to ignore all of the content to get to the end as fast as possible"
If you disagree with this you shouldn't even be playing MMOs. The goal should never, ever be max level. The adventure you take whether with friends or on your own, is what should be looked forward to.
"I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever. But it's still not the interesting content you'd expect in a single-player game."
Something many are improperly reading. The final sentence should have gotten you back on track. He isn't saying you need to make an MMO into a SP for it to have good content, he's saying MMOs use interesting content to get you hooked, then it slowly starts to simplifiy, nothing is interesting anymore. It's a simple bait and switch or total laziness. He continues to say it's not the interesting content you would expect in a SPRG. Has nothing to do with turning the genre into a SP experience.
Nothing he said was incorrect. But you've once said I 'mindlessly' agree, and for that I say you're just mad bro. k?
Very well said, Greed0104!
I guess people who critizise Mr Erickson should more go to Second Life or such, where you just aimlessly can built stuff.
I will stand by my statement about him being wrong. MMO's are not single-player games. MMORPG's are not single-player RPG games. If you want single player content then you play single player games. MMO's should not be designed with a single-player concept ever! While MMORPGs and RPGs clearly share many elements they are completely different monsters. FFXIII was a great game and I stopped playing it after i finished it's story which took a week of play. You play MMO's for months if not years so if Bioware believes they can dish out new single-player quality RPG content faster than their player base can clear it they in for a seriously fall.
MMORPGs aren't meant to be RPG games. While putting the RPG in, I wonder if they forgot about the MMO. Where is the "Massive Multiplayer" in SW:TOR? All I see is an RPG trying to play itself off as an MMO.
Just giving my 2 cents here, but I do see a lot of posts on single player RPGs asking for it to be an MMO. I understand what both sides want, but no one is going to change their mind.
I would consider myself mixed. i do want to be able to solo in TOR, but I also want things that require grouping. My only concern is those things that require grouping shouldn't take longer than an hour. If they did take longer than an hour then I know have to schedule my game time to fit that expected time frame, which I don't like. I like to hop in and play immediatly.
Another thing is I don't buy single player RPGs because they don't last long enough. $50-$60 for 8-10 hours of gameplay andthen thats it? I'd rather buy an MMO with the same characteristics and the option to socialize and play with other people to make hours turn into 15-30 a week or month depending on my own circumstances.
I consider the game a form of entertainment and not a lifestyle choice.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
SW:TOR will be a perfect fit for you I believe. SW:TOR aimed at the very casual player and the game will work for them but if you can offer more than 3-4 hours a day and double that on weekends, SW:TOR will dry up pretty fast and then you 'go play it from the other side' for my story. Their game design has nothing to do with MMO and everything to do with RPG. I find it odd people say how empty and unfriendly the community in WoW is but in SW:TOR with class driven quests that branch out how isolated do you think the world will be?
"Hey can you.. h..."
"Sorry I'm in the middle of my bounty hunter arc."
"Hi, what how are you?"
"Huh? Leave me alone trying to finish my jedi training."
"Hey, where can I find..."
"Go away you are messing up my spawns. I'm doing my Trooper missions"
Personally, I think it''s funny that so many people have this idea that BioWare has set out to create an merely an "online SP game"... that BioWare (one of the biggest gaming giants out there) would set out to create an MMORPG that isn't anything more than just a SP game played online... to me, that's just silly!
And all of this is because BioWare has yet to really disclose the "end game" mechanics... such as "what's going to keep people interested AFTER they reach the level-cap?" (and other similar end-game questions)... nor have they really disclosed much about any PvP mechanics....
And this is exactly what Daniel was talking about... it's the people that are ONLY interested in the "end-game" that are MISSING THE POINT! The point of games, as far as I am concered, is not to just "beat the game," but to enjoy the process of beating the game! And all that any of the current MMOs do beyond normal games that have a SET ending, is they add some type of "end-game" mechanics that keeps people involved further with their characters... whether it be PvP or Raids, or whatever...
Now sure, this isn't ALWAYS the case... as "sandbox" MMOs start everyone off with a clean slate and, for the most part, just say "Go!" But, ANY MMO that has SOME type of story built in, is also, IN A WAY, just an "online SP game" that has built in some type of mechanic to keep people interested once they've hit the "end of the story." And if anyone disgrees with this, please explain to me how any MMO is any different (besides sandbox MMOs, as I said)...
So sure, as far as the information on SW:TOR that the public is aware of CURRENTLY, the game can easily be seen as though BioWare has just been making an "Online SP game," in the sense that they ARE telling us that our characters' paths in the game will follow a set story (per class), just like SP games do... and that within those storylines the game will play out, IN A WAY, like Mass Effect (where choices change things up within those storylines)...
So if you take what BioWare has told us THUS FAR, and go "See, they're just making a game like Mass Effect that will be played online and have a subscription..." then I personally feel that you are making assumptions about what BioWare has set out to create, purely based on ONLY the information in front of you right now! But who's to say that BioWare doesn't know all too well that people have been complaining that their game is just going to be an "online SP game" and aren't working hard to make sure they prove those people wrong?
I mean, as far as I am concered, their mentality behind this entire game is... "Change the status quo!" And I don't know about anyone else, but if they actually pull that off, then I am looking forward to a game that blows everything else out of the water...
And really, why would an "online SP game" that has great "end-game" and "PvP" mechanics built in be all that bad? What is it about this idea that bothers people? I guess I just don't quite understand the mentality within the people that want to bash something even before they have all the information about it...
All I can say is that I enjoy things for WHAT THEY ARE... and I try not to make ASSUMPTIONS about what I THINK they are going to be. And thus far, what BioWare has been telling us, TO ME, sounds like they know what they are doing and are working hard on creating something that will truly "change the status quo" when it comes to MMORPGs...
But, of course, time will only tell! ;-)
I do not cut my life up into days, but my days into lives... Each Day, Each Hour, Each Moment... an Entire Life.
Most Games is grinding out endless hours to reach END game, The stuff in the middle we care less about cause our guild is running stuff and fighting the fun stuff wile we whack on bears in a semi safe Area. So we kick it in high gear to catch up to our guild so that we can have fun at end game too. Once we reach end game We see a class do more damage or more healing and go I want to do that so we make an alt and do the grind over and over again.
My point is that almost every MMO I have ever played has this type of gameplay rude players that are only looking out for them selfs higher lvl players killing stuff you need so they can sale it to you, Gold farmers and spammer selling gold for real money and not to forget the players standing around afk with a sale macro. I would love a game where The game leading up to End game is just as fun, Killing pigs for 3 days in a row to get up a lvl just to find out the stuff I need no one does anymore stinks. I want to play a game where I have fun things to do and I will always have something fun to do.
Mario with full voice overs and in game cinematics. Would it be better?
Bioware will have much to prove at E3, because pre recorded audio and cinematics are not the kind of content eager hands will want to test.
The guy reminds me of that old FunCom Director of Age of Conan fame: our MMo is filet mignon compared to a hamburger.
It's his neck, not mine. Perhaps the man should have played more than AoC, one of many MMo's who lost 90% of its players in 3 months time.
90% of Dragon Age players finished the game in 3 weeks.
Single story telling tales don't last long. MMo players play along the Lore settings never along single story lines.
Thats funny that you mentioned that because super mario 64 was the first time they gave mario a voice, not just that but it also did have cinematics and was hailed as one of the best mario games ever. The legend of zelda ocarina of time was the same way. Were they great just because of the voice acting and cinematics? No.... Mario was one of the first, if not the first, full 3d free roaming game and zelda... well, a lot of what makes zelda popular is the story... but both had cinematics and voices for their characters, albeit minimal voice acting.
I will stand by my statement about him being wrong. MMO's are not single-player games.
I'm glad we both agree on this
MMORPG's are not single-player RPG games.
Agree again...
If you want single player content then you play single player games. MMO's should not be designed with a single-player concept ever! While MMORPGs and RPGs clearly share many elements they are completely different monsters. FFXIII was a great game and I stopped playing it after i finished it's story which took a week of play. You play MMO's for months if not years so if Bioware believes they can dish out new single-player quality RPG content faster than their player base can clear it they in for a seriously fall.
MMORPGs aren't meant to be RPG games. While putting the RPG in, I wonder if they forgot about the MMO. Where is the "Massive Multiplayer" in SW:TOR? All I see is an RPG trying to play itself off as an MMO.
Again, failure to understand what is being said. This isn't about wanting single player content, this about wanting content that is equal in quality to what you would find in a SP game. And by you claiming it shouldn't/can't be done, you further make my and Ericksons point.
"The thing that has been a challenge for us on Old Republic is that people tried to convince us these limitations were canon - that they were to be respected, you know? That you could not, in fact, put interesting bits in an MMO because that was now sacrilege."
Does the chance of this working scare the hell out of you guys? I'm not understanding it all here. If you're so certain this wont work, why are you putting so much effort into having us believe the same when this games failure has no effect on you?
As Long as this does not turn out to be a PVP FFA where players kill weaker players purely because "they can" then I will give it a shot.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
Mario with full voice overs and in game cinematics. Would it be better?
Bioware will have much to prove at E3, because pre recorded audio and cinematics are not the kind of content eager hands will want to test.
The guy reminds me of that old FunCom Director of Age of Conan fame: our MMo is filet mignon compared to a hamburger.
It's his neck, not mine. Perhaps the man should have played more than AoC, one of many MMo's who lost 90% of its players in 3 months time.
90% of Dragon Age players finished the game in 3 weeks.
Single story telling tales don't last long. MMo players play along the Lore settings never along single story lines.
Thats funny that you mentioned that because super mario 64 was the first time they gave mario a voice, not just that but it also did have cinematics and was hailed as one of the best mario games ever. The legend of zelda ocarina of time was the same way. Were they great just because of the voice acting and cinematics? No.... Mario was one of the first, if not the first, full 3d free roaming game and zelda... well, a lot of what makes zelda popular is the story... but both had cinematics and voices for their characters, albeit minimal voice acting.
Are you trying to tell us mario 64 is one of the best marios becouse it had some voice overs and cinematic? LOL Man this forum is officially doomed o_O
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
*snip*
But don't pretend that a sandbox 'virtual world simulator' game will ever have the dramatic impact or momentous moments that a well-written novel or movie or video game can have. Games like Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Never Winter Nights had *written* stories, not plots created by their players. That's because writing a truly compelling story is a *skill* and not one that is found by throwing a bunch of random people together on a server.
It's not the developer's fault, people want compelling stories and it's what is expected from the market now that MMORPG audience has expanded beyond hardcore, old-school players who have the time to waste 'making their own stories' which are little more than bad Mary-Sue fan-fics.
*snip*
I'm going to have to disagree here, the countless examples of emergent gameplay, compelling drama, and "real" stories created as the result of CCP's EVE Online contend strongly with the potential for a great pre-written narrative. They both have their place.
However, the latter of which presents a challenge when trying to tie that story into creating a lasting impact on the game world, while EVE Online's (and games like it) numerous scandals and myriad other adventures have the potential to reverberate throughout the entirety of the game world, and they have already.
With that said, I'm pretty hopeful for The Old Republic and I appreciate what they are trying to do. However, I can and do prefer the sandbox approach, not simply as part of an ideal or abstract feeling, but because I have both been a part of and witnessed the unique stories that they have the potential to create.
There is room for hybrids as well. Let's not forget The Matrix Online, which featured a well crafted narrative that was guided in part (and supplemented) by the actions of players, and their own stories. In fact, my crew in MXO was included as part of the in-game lore in one or more quests as a result of our impact. Ideally, this is my preferred approach. I'd love to see a narrative that SW:TOR promises to offer, in addition to providing players with the tools, gameplay mechanics, and world to foster the kinds of stories only players can create.
While yes, it's true that writing stories are a skill, many of our favorite stories are inspired by the real stories created simply by real life events, either directly inspired or on a basic level. If a game is given the proper tools and support by its developer (i.e. EVE Online) great things can happen naturally. So, again, there is potential for both to co-exist and they are both valid approaches to design, IMO.
Heck, on a smaller scale, people create their own lasting stories every Friday night during D&D.
I also found the example of Neverwinter Nights to illustrate your point amusing, given the fact that NWN is not renowned for its pre-written narrative so much as its player-created modules. In fact, Bioware accepts these modules as an example of potential writer/designers' work as part of the application's required submissions.
These "bad Mary-Sue fan-fics" are getting many people jobs writing the narratives in the games you adore.
Excellent Point...or more simply put, who wrote the script to...
Thermopyle
The charge of the Light Brigade at Balaklava
Picketts Charge
Rourkes Drift
The rangers assault at Ponte Du Hoc?
Incredibly dramatic stuff happens all the time in real life (as well as games), not from people trying to craft something dramatic but simply because they are trying to accomplish something really difficult ...and all the right pieces of the puzzle happen to fit together.
Heck, the most "dramatic" moments I've experienced in an MMO have, by far, all been in WWII Online....nothing scripted, just trying to keep the other side (the Krouts) from taking a town. I'm sure neither side was going into thinking they were going to create a moment of high drama....it just happaned that way.
Comments
He is wrong.
Bioware is saying "If your MMO doesn't have possibly hundreds of hours of voice-overs with thousands of quests, then your game is pointless." and that has to be the biggest epic fail ever. WoW, FFXI, WAR, and even Aion has thousands of quests and yes a lot of them are actually interesting if a player finds the time to read the dialog.
I honestly find it increasely difficult to not hope SW:TOR doesn't fail with the attitude that Bioware presents almost everytime they release information.
"Look, look! We are making the best MMO ever.... but this game is really KOTOR3 played online"
@clocksimus: Haters gotta hate.
Couldn't put it better myself. Applauds.
Ludicrous. What did doing the quests in crossroad alter besides your experience bar? It changed nothing long term. For the time I played aion (mid 20s) nothing I did was meaninful, nothing I did was fun. Horrible example. And good luck with FFXI, getting to the story should be uninteresting, partially due to the slow grindy combat the game has chosen to go with. I won't even comment on WAR, first MMO I've uninstalled after 15 minutes of play.
What BioWare has said is they're putting the RPG back in MMO. WoW is not an MMORPG, that is very apparent today, with it's mostly empty zones. Everybody is to busy transforming it into a lobby game, standing in Dal, or your faction city waiting for queues all day. This isn't a story, you're just doing things because you have to.
What is wrong with what he said exactly?
"There was no story, there was no point. You just kind of wandered around. And that hasn't really changed all that much over the years."
And this is true, what is the driving force to WoW? To get better gear, more levels, more gold, just more...stuff? That's it? This isn't a goal and certainlly doesn't sounds like an RPG. But you know, the tools will continue to disagree, WoW has meaningless quests, it also recycles bosses (Cata will be Onyxia #3, Rag #2, Nef #2), it's starting to sound like an episode of Dragon Ball Z, with an endless supply of Senzu Beans. Half assed story telling is what most MMOs offer.
And before you say sandbox, not enough players possess the creativity to make them even remotely popular.
"you shouldn't be trying to ignore all of the content to get to the end as fast as possible"
If you disagree with this you shouldn't even be playing MMOs. The goal should never, ever be max level. The adventure you take whether with friends or on your own, is what should be looked forward to.
"I don't think that [MMO creators] set out in the beginning to say: 'Hey, let's make this a grind. Let's not have any interesting content here.' A lot of the better ones more recently have interesting content for the first few levels, you know - and some of them for the first 20 levels, whatever. But it's still not the interesting content you'd expect in a single-player game."
Something many are improperly reading. The final sentence should have gotten you back on track. He isn't saying you need to make an MMO into a SP for it to have good content, he's saying MMOs use interesting content to get you hooked, then it slowly starts to simplifiy, nothing is interesting anymore. It's a simple bait and switch or total laziness. He continues to say it's not the interesting content you would expect in a SPRG. Has nothing to do with turning the genre into a SP experience.
Nothing he said was incorrect. But you've once said I 'mindlessly' agree, and for that I say you're just mad bro. k?
LoL yea like someone at Bioware knows anything about mmorpgs. Isn't this guy a failed movie writer out of Austin?. Plus, who gives a shit about the old republic. sw:tor = fail. Get the goddamn license away from SOE and do it right. GOD DAMNIT!
Don't know if this post was meant as sarcasm or if this was an honest outright failure. Should I laugh or give him the correct information?
Mario with full voice overs and in game cinematics. Would it be better?
Bioware will have much to prove at E3, because pre recorded audio and cinematics are not the kind of content eager hands will want to test.
The guy reminds me of that old FunCom Director of Age of Conan fame: our MMo is filet mignon compared to a hamburger.
It's his neck, not mine. Perhaps the man should have played more than AoC, one of many MMo's who lost 90% of its players in 3 months time.
90% of Dragon Age players finished the game in 3 weeks.
Single story telling tales don't last long. MMo players play along the Lore settings never along single story lines.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I agree 100% when he said that MMO's today only give u 20 lv's then grind your life away. AoC fully VO till 20 then drop u in a middle of a town with no idea. Aion 1st 20 lv a great story fun as hell. Then they throw u in a zone where u got ppl with no job or toke vaction ganking u when u are tring to find a quest or do a quest. I like PvP but there need's to be limit's over 5 lv above u shouldn't be able to attack u. It isn't fun at all for the guy who got gank or the Ganker. I guess some idoit's think ganking lowbe is fun . Wow I killed u in 2 hit's good for u come back when I'm capped and talk prick. STO 1st 7 lv good story then junk. Of corse STO wasn't finished half the missions wasn't ready at lunch.While I could go on for ever,But it just show's me They know there stuff and it make's me fill good about release Day. Great work Bioware keep up the good work. Oh Yeah come on and release it at 80-90% I can't wait no more going nut's. hehe
I Hate to point anyone out. BUT it is ppl like u that make me laugh.U haveen't done no research read any info that is out there. If u READ even a 1/3 of the info out on ToR u would know that the story isn't something u got to do. Same with Getting Comp.(Pets) There is Open world Quest,Drop Quest, u can just Grind out in the open world. With 16 Plantets each plantet big as Big as Outlands in WoW. Not to say anything about End game Instance's and PvP. They said they are gong to do some PvP like War so be rdy for taking over stuff. (like Keep's on War) Then of corse u got Glove's,Bracers,belt's,helm's,cloak's,chest and leggin's, 2 melee and 1 range duel slot's. it will take u hour's to run from one side of the plantet to the other. Like going from Darn. to TB while really alot longer then that. We already saw Swoop's at low lv area's prolly Like the FP's in WoW. Bioware said they want this to be a Mix of ever MMO.Sandbox,RPG,PvP,Community,Econ. and Deep Story for the ppl that like that. Which it is about time we get a good story. As for Your Comp. (pets) They said u have the chance to get 5+ ( A Healier,Tank,Dps,Range Dps,Buff, and Healier) This way u don't got to wait 3 hr's looking for a Healier to do a Instance if u got 4 ppl and no healier anyone in your group with a healier pet can bring them. U can only use one Pet at a time. I for one hate wanting for a Healier and most of the time there tired because there is a lack of healiers. To many CUPCAKE"S LIKE THE HEAVY DPS so they can say I was the 1st one to 50 woot good for u. As for the story u can Skip it anyway's. They add the skip button of corse for instance and Raid where u run 10-20 time's for everyone to get loot or there set piece's. There is Fall damage and all those goodie's. I know there is alot QQ becase they have the Tank's and what not ( there not named tank's and dps. There defenders, aggresser, healier's, and guess Crowd control is crowd control hehe.) But Like I ALWAYS SAY IF IT"S NOT BROKE TO FIX IT> The Tank,DPS,CC, and Healier thing I think is a Must for a MMO so u got good group's and good fight's. Anyone who plaied a Pally and fought another Pally for 2 hr's and decide to call it a draw or while u was fighting called for back up know's that everyone healing is no good for PvP or PvE instance's. I'm uselly a healier and I know when I'm on my alt with a Noob Healier it make's for a long run and uselly a wipe and a waste of a run.
They need to let u edit your Post. :-( anyways for the PvP and Pve ppl. They said they will have Rp,PvE, and PvP server's so cheer up u Open world Ganker's.
i think what people seek from mmos is , people. Aoc taught me that i wanted human interaction more than anything else , people running around mindlessly grinding and no one does anything to interact. just like WoW. quest and turn in quest and turn in. then i hit a button and i run a dungeon and we dont talk for the half hour.
BRING THE PEOPLE TOGETHER AND YOU WILL HAVE A MILLION DOLLAR MMO.
If you actually knew anything about my point of view at present MMORPG trends you would have understand that I am completely agaist replacing actual game content with grind. I only doubt that building a strong story line with no replayablility value whatssover is the best direction for MMORPG evolution. BTW I doubt that SWTOR will be grindless.
Honestly, I must fully agree with Mr Erickson. I love Pen & Paper RPGs, and for me the old fashioned MMOs always lacked the story I was seeking. I am greatly looking forward to it, and as I see it many other MMOs coming in the future also have an emphasis on story. I mean, in the end sandbox gaming was always quite boring, when your only reason to kill things is "because they are there". I can do group hunts in some forest only so often before it bores me. I guess most people critizising this new idea of story still have the old fashioned quest concept in mind, but I think SWTOR will be on an altogether different level of MMO gaming. In games like EQ or WOW, you do a quest, yes there is a story attached, but it doesnt really impact or bite you back. In TOR it is (as I understand it) supposed to have impact and meaning, so it is something very different. I greatly enjoyed those story-heavy parts of AoC - Tortage and the LOTRO books quests. For me the addition to story to MMO is a bit of the same level revolutionary as 3d graphics were once.
EDIT: I don't understand how people can be mad about something that isn't even out yet! I mean, what did this guy say other than what we know about TOR from the very first hour? You guys act like you never head before that TOR will be about story as an important part. They also said, it will be a mix between the extremes of theme park and sandbox. So you can expect your "aimless hunting" and sandboxish parts also. So what is the fuzz about? Sure, its no UO. But they never claimed it would be.
You don't like strawberry ice? Fine. Don't buy. But don't yell at people all the time who do like it.
I will stand by my statement about him being wrong. MMO's are not single-player games. MMORPG's are not single-player RPG games. If you want single player content then you play single player games. MMO's should not be designed with a single-player concept ever! While MMORPGs and RPGs clearly share many elements they are completely different monsters. FFXIII was a great game and I stopped playing it after i finished it's story which took a week of play. You play MMO's for months if not years so if Bioware believes they can dish out new single-player quality RPG content faster than their player base can clear it they in for a seriously fall.
MMORPGs aren't meant to be RPG games. While putting the RPG in, I wonder if they forgot about the MMO. Where is the "Massive Multiplayer" in SW:TOR? All I see is an RPG trying to play itself off as an MMO.
All I see is another item based / gear based / level based, cut copy and paste theme-park MMO in Star Wars skin. No point to existing MMOs is a really cocky and bold thing to state about other MMO's when their game is the same thing. Another great IP bites the dust....
I guess people who critizise Mr Erickson should more go to Second Life or such, where you just aimlessly can built stuff.
Just giving my 2 cents here, but I do see a lot of posts on single player RPGs asking for it to be an MMO. I understand what both sides want, but no one is going to change their mind.
I would consider myself mixed. i do want to be able to solo in TOR, but I also want things that require grouping. My only concern is those things that require grouping shouldn't take longer than an hour. If they did take longer than an hour then I know have to schedule my game time to fit that expected time frame, which I don't like. I like to hop in and play immediatly.
Another thing is I don't buy single player RPGs because they don't last long enough. $50-$60 for 8-10 hours of gameplay andthen thats it? I'd rather buy an MMO with the same characteristics and the option to socialize and play with other people to make hours turn into 15-30 a week or month depending on my own circumstances.
I consider the game a form of entertainment and not a lifestyle choice.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
Caskio
SW:TOR will be a perfect fit for you I believe. SW:TOR aimed at the very casual player and the game will work for them but if you can offer more than 3-4 hours a day and double that on weekends, SW:TOR will dry up pretty fast and then you 'go play it from the other side' for my story. Their game design has nothing to do with MMO and everything to do with RPG. I find it odd people say how empty and unfriendly the community in WoW is but in SW:TOR with class driven quests that branch out how isolated do you think the world will be?
"Hey can you.. h..."
"Sorry I'm in the middle of my bounty hunter arc."
"Hi, what how are you?"
"Huh? Leave me alone trying to finish my jedi training."
"Hey, where can I find..."
"Go away you are messing up my spawns. I'm doing my Trooper missions"
Personally, I think it''s funny that so many people have this idea that BioWare has set out to create an merely an "online SP game"... that BioWare (one of the biggest gaming giants out there) would set out to create an MMORPG that isn't anything more than just a SP game played online... to me, that's just silly!
And all of this is because BioWare has yet to really disclose the "end game" mechanics... such as "what's going to keep people interested AFTER they reach the level-cap?" (and other similar end-game questions)... nor have they really disclosed much about any PvP mechanics....
And this is exactly what Daniel was talking about... it's the people that are ONLY interested in the "end-game" that are MISSING THE POINT! The point of games, as far as I am concered, is not to just "beat the game," but to enjoy the process of beating the game! And all that any of the current MMOs do beyond normal games that have a SET ending, is they add some type of "end-game" mechanics that keeps people involved further with their characters... whether it be PvP or Raids, or whatever...
Now sure, this isn't ALWAYS the case... as "sandbox" MMOs start everyone off with a clean slate and, for the most part, just say "Go!" But, ANY MMO that has SOME type of story built in, is also, IN A WAY, just an "online SP game" that has built in some type of mechanic to keep people interested once they've hit the "end of the story." And if anyone disgrees with this, please explain to me how any MMO is any different (besides sandbox MMOs, as I said)...
So sure, as far as the information on SW:TOR that the public is aware of CURRENTLY, the game can easily be seen as though BioWare has just been making an "Online SP game," in the sense that they ARE telling us that our characters' paths in the game will follow a set story (per class), just like SP games do... and that within those storylines the game will play out, IN A WAY, like Mass Effect (where choices change things up within those storylines)...
So if you take what BioWare has told us THUS FAR, and go "See, they're just making a game like Mass Effect that will be played online and have a subscription..." then I personally feel that you are making assumptions about what BioWare has set out to create, purely based on ONLY the information in front of you right now! But who's to say that BioWare doesn't know all too well that people have been complaining that their game is just going to be an "online SP game" and aren't working hard to make sure they prove those people wrong?
I mean, as far as I am concered, their mentality behind this entire game is... "Change the status quo!" And I don't know about anyone else, but if they actually pull that off, then I am looking forward to a game that blows everything else out of the water...
And really, why would an "online SP game" that has great "end-game" and "PvP" mechanics built in be all that bad? What is it about this idea that bothers people? I guess I just don't quite understand the mentality within the people that want to bash something even before they have all the information about it...
All I can say is that I enjoy things for WHAT THEY ARE... and I try not to make ASSUMPTIONS about what I THINK they are going to be. And thus far, what BioWare has been telling us, TO ME, sounds like they know what they are doing and are working hard on creating something that will truly "change the status quo" when it comes to MMORPGs...
But, of course, time will only tell! ;-)
I do not cut my life up into days, but my days into lives...
Each Day, Each Hour, Each Moment... an Entire Life.
Most Games is grinding out endless hours to reach END game, The stuff in the middle we care less about cause our guild is running stuff and fighting the fun stuff wile we whack on bears in a semi safe Area. So we kick it in high gear to catch up to our guild so that we can have fun at end game too. Once we reach end game We see a class do more damage or more healing and go I want to do that so we make an alt and do the grind over and over again.
My point is that almost every MMO I have ever played has this type of gameplay rude players that are only looking out for them selfs higher lvl players killing stuff you need so they can sale it to you, Gold farmers and spammer selling gold for real money and not to forget the players standing around afk with a sale macro. I would love a game where The game leading up to End game is just as fun, Killing pigs for 3 days in a row to get up a lvl just to find out the stuff I need no one does anymore stinks. I want to play a game where I have fun things to do and I will always have something fun to do.
Thats funny that you mentioned that because super mario 64 was the first time they gave mario a voice, not just that but it also did have cinematics and was hailed as one of the best mario games ever. The legend of zelda ocarina of time was the same way. Were they great just because of the voice acting and cinematics? No.... Mario was one of the first, if not the first, full 3d free roaming game and zelda... well, a lot of what makes zelda popular is the story... but both had cinematics and voices for their characters, albeit minimal voice acting.
Again, failure to understand what is being said. This isn't about wanting single player content, this about wanting content that is equal in quality to what you would find in a SP game. And by you claiming it shouldn't/can't be done, you further make my and Ericksons point.
"The thing that has been a challenge for us on Old Republic is that people tried to convince us these limitations were canon - that they were to be respected, you know? That you could not, in fact, put interesting bits in an MMO because that was now sacrilege."
Does the chance of this working scare the hell out of you guys? I'm not understanding it all here. If you're so certain this wont work, why are you putting so much effort into having us believe the same when this games failure has no effect on you?
As Long as this does not turn out to be a PVP FFA where players kill weaker players purely because "they can" then I will give it a shot.
I used to visit this site a lot however in recent years it has become the home of negative forum posts, illogical opinions and tantrums so I visit less often.
Played or Beta'd: UO / DAOC / Horizons / EQ2 / DDO / EVE / Archlord / PirateKingsOnline / Tabula Rasa / LOTRO / AOC / Champions / Darkfall / Mortal Online / DCUO / Rift / STO / SWTOR / TSW
Are you trying to tell us mario 64 is one of the best marios becouse it had some voice overs and cinematic? LOL Man this forum is officially doomed o_O
Excellent Point...or more simply put, who wrote the script to...
Thermopyle
The charge of the Light Brigade at Balaklava
Picketts Charge
Rourkes Drift
The rangers assault at Ponte Du Hoc?
Incredibly dramatic stuff happens all the time in real life (as well as games), not from people trying to craft something dramatic but simply because they are trying to accomplish something really difficult ...and all the right pieces of the puzzle happen to fit together.
Heck, the most "dramatic" moments I've experienced in an MMO have, by far, all been in WWII Online....nothing scripted, just trying to keep the other side (the Krouts) from taking a town. I'm sure neither side was going into thinking they were going to create a moment of high drama....it just happaned that way.