Fair enough. LOTRO is not an esport level game though, never has been.
No it's more of a carnival midway. You knock down the milk bottles and you get a kewpie doll. The kewpie doll is desirable though and knocking down the milk bottles is an accomplishment. Being able to buy the kewpie doll devalues the accomplishment. Being able to knock down only one bottle and still winning the kewpie doll because you slipped the huckster a couple of bucks is likewise.
I had to chime in. You are not buying the kewpie doll in the LOTRO F2P model. You can buy more balls though. Rewards will not be in the cash shop. Only quest content, consumables and fluff items.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
A game without a form of accomplishment can hardly be considered a game. You seam to apply this reason only to mmo but this is valid to every other games. Did you ever play footbal in real life or some other sports? You feel good when you win. It's not that you actually earn a trophy or something big, is just a form of accomplishment testing your skills against the other team. Video games are not too much different than sports.
And nobody here is saying that in game accomplishments are more important than those in real.
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
A game without a form of accomplishment can hardly be considered a game. You seam to apply this reason only to mmo but this is valid to every other games. Did you ever play footbal in real life or some other sports? You feel good when you win. It's not that you actually earn a trophy or something big, is just a form of accomplishment testing your skills against the other team. Video games are not too much different than sports.
And nobody here is saying that in game accomplishments are more important than those in real.
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
Don't think I don't understand what you mean. I know fully and so does every other hardcore player. The problem is that this is how this genre works. Progress equals time and that's why I'm not playing anymore as much as I use too. It's about prioritizing which achievments mean more for you, those in game or those in real. Especially about us 25+. But I, personally don't find the solution in the f2p. Maybe a different type of progress that's not bound to time. I'm totally against the distrupting of ingame mechanics from outside.
A game without a form of accomplishment can hardly be considered a game. You seam to apply this reason only to mmo but this is valid to every other games. Did you ever play footbal in real life or some other sports? You feel good when you win. It's not that you actually earn a trophy or something big, is just a form of accomplishment testing your skills against the other team. Video games are not too much different than sports.
And nobody here is saying that in game accomplishments are more important than those in real.
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
And you're STILL looking at it the wrong way.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
A game without a form of accomplishment can hardly be considered a game. You seam to apply this reason only to mmo but this is valid to every other games. Did you ever play footbal in real life or some other sports? You feel good when you win. It's not that you actually earn a trophy or something big, is just a form of accomplishment testing your skills against the other team. Video games are not too much different than sports.
And nobody here is saying that in game accomplishments are more important than those in real.
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
And you're STILL looking at it the wrong way.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
No. The poster is ACCOMPLISHING something. They're HAVING FUN. Difference being, they're using the commodity of money to get what they want, whereas you use the commodity of time. Both are spending a comparable amount of their individual commodities, ergo the end result is equal.
A game without a form of accomplishment can hardly be considered a game. You seam to apply this reason only to mmo but this is valid to every other games. Did you ever play footbal in real life or some other sports? You feel good when you win. It's not that you actually earn a trophy or something big, is just a form of accomplishment testing your skills against the other team. Video games are not too much different than sports.
And nobody here is saying that in game accomplishments are more important than those in real.
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
And you're STILL looking at it the wrong way.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
All the PROCESS accomplishes is how you feel about yourself. While I'm all for earning what you want and working hard for stuff, these are video games. This is a place where we can escape to because we're too busy earning what we want and working hard for stuff in real life. Do I feel jipped that someone else can get the things I have by paying for it? A little, yes. Who wouldn't? I can either whine about it or compare my two options: spend time to obtain it in game, or pay money to get it now. Not everyone will choose the latter option. I'm sure you wouldn't. I probably wouldn't either. But there are plenty who would, which gives meaning to the whole concept of the cash shop in the first place.
And really. We're blowing the impact of the Turbine Store way out of proportions. Turbine doesn't seem like the company (yes, I could be proven wrong, but we'll have to see) that will change their ethics and morals and start selling Level 40 toons for 20 bucks' worth of Turbine Points. The store will be a secondary option, hopefully rarely used at all by VIP customers, acting mainly as the money collection method for F2P/Premium subscribers.
People hear F2P, they cringe and think pay-to-win. I did too, before I looked at the facts. For the last time, Turbine is not making LotRO a F2P game.
When you search for all 65 levels of Burglars on the most populated American server and you get less than 100 results, your game needs more people. Period. Yes, some people choose to be Anonymous and thus don't show up in the search results. Despite that, it shows how LotRO's population has been stagnating over the last couple of months. Whatever it takes to change that, I'll give it a chance.
Fair enough. LOTRO is not an esport level game though, never has been.
No it's more of a carnival midway. You knock down the milk bottles and you get a kewpie doll. The kewpie doll is desirable though and knocking down the milk bottles is an accomplishment. Being able to buy the kewpie doll devalues the accomplishment. Being able to knock down only one bottle and still winning the kewpie doll because you slipped the huckster a couple of bucks is likewise.
I had to chime in. You are not buying the kewpie doll in the LOTRO F2P model. You can buy more balls though. Rewards will not be in the cash shop. Only quest content, consumables and fluff items.
So far. If that doesn't bring in enough money to satisfy them then what? The game was already making money so this is clearly about making more money. How much is enough. How long until they start selling mounts?
I understand the fear. But monts is a problem? You get a free mount with every festival. Also I have a free goat with the adventure pack. Which now that I think about it. That adventure pack may have been a test for an item shop. Nothing in the pack but the mount was anythng more than extra storage space and character slots. To me the fun of the game are the quests and middle earth locations. Gear is not that big of a deal in LOTRO because it is a PvE game. It would be a bigger problem in a PvP game. Still I understand that you don't want others to pay real money for items you worked hard to get. The mounts that required a big faction grind to get should never be in the cash shop. But I would have mo problem with the goat or festival mounts in a cash shop.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Originally posted by Wharg0ul This is the ultimate culmination of the "instant gratification" mentality that has plagued MMORPGs in recent years. It wasn't enough to dumb the games down, and make sure you never had to accomplish anything....now you don't even have to PLAY to get that next "New Shiny" (tm) item....just BUY IT with your credit card!! This is the beginning of something VERY, VERY bad. You think WoW did permenant damage to MMORPGs?? Just wait 'till THIS little shit-flower blossoms. We went from virtual worlds, to virtual Wal-Mart. And the lazy-ass "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" generation cheered the whole time.
This and well said.
All Cash Shops in all online games (MMOs some people call them) exist for one and only one reason:
To drain your wallet of extra cash... to tempt you to go the "easy route"...and they justify it by reminding us that we are not as young as we used to be and we don't have the time to earn it ourselves.
Poppycock. It's profiteering pure and simple. It's cheating. Years ago the Players would have revolted... and did a few times. Now it's not only acceptable and defended by Dev and Player alike but also considered cool.
As another Player posted on these forums not so long ago... "The MMO world has gone straight into the Gutter". I agree.
Any Player that buys anything from a Cash Shop in a MMO is Cheating, period. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
AND I want LotRO to remain the kind of MMO where everyone can go everywhere together, not this zone access garbage other MMOs are going to now.(No I did not support MoM and SoM as being expansions that restricted Players movements. Level cap yes, restricted access no.)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
Wrong. Again.
I'm not looking at the loot. I don't care about loot in these games anymore, and haven't in years.
I'm looking at the process. For me, the process and accomplishment are in having fun and enjoying myself. I don't need to spend as much time in these games as I used to in EQ1. I don't define myself or my self-worth as a gamer based on achievements or pixelated loot that I've earned or monsters I've fought. I just play to enjoy myself and have fun. That in itself is an accomplishment, since I'm not looking for anything more out of a game than just to relax and unwind, and to spend time in a game world I find interesting.
If someone else's idea of fun involves buying items in a cash shop to make their time spent easier, then more power to them, IMO. It's their money and their business, and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of a game one whit. I choose to live and let live. Besides, the market is moving in that direction anyway. No sense in blowing a gasket over it, since it's inevitable. I'd rather just have fun while a game is fun.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
Wrong. Again.
I'm not looking at the loot. I don't care about loot in these games anymore, and haven't in years.
I'm looking at the process. For me, the process and accomplishment are in having fun and enjoying myself. I don't need to spend as much time in these games as I used to in EQ1. I don't define myself or my self-worth as a gamer based on achievements or pixelated loot that I've earned or monsters I've fought. I just play to enjoy myself and have fun. That in itself is an accomplishment, since I'm not looking for anything more out of a game than just to relax and unwind, and to spend time in a game world I find interesting.
If someone else's idea of fun involves buying items in a cash shop to make their time spent easier, then more power to them, IMO. It's their money and their business, and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of a game one whit. I choose to live and let live. Besides, the market is moving in that direction anyway. No sense in blowing a gasket over it, since it's inevitable. I'd rather just have fun while a game is fun.
If you aren't looking at loot and the progress than why do you want to buy stuff from cash shop. Process and achievment is not important for you to enjoy a game. For you doesn't matter if you're full epic or not. Why speeding up the process of levelling if the highest level is not what you're after to.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
Wrong. Again.
I'm not looking at the loot. I don't care about loot in these games anymore, and haven't in years.
I'm looking at the process. For me, the process and accomplishment are in having fun and enjoying myself. I don't need to spend as much time in these games as I used to in EQ1. I don't define myself or my self-worth as a gamer based on achievements or pixelated loot that I've earned or monsters I've fought. I just play to enjoy myself and have fun. That in itself is an accomplishment, since I'm not looking for anything more out of a game than just to relax and unwind, and to spend time in a game world I find interesting.
If someone else's idea of fun involves buying items in a cash shop to make their time spent easier, then more power to them, IMO. It's their money and their business, and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of a game one whit. I choose to live and let live. Besides, the market is moving in that direction anyway. No sense in blowing a gasket over it, since it's inevitable. I'd rather just have fun while a game is fun.
Very well put Lidane...
The "scare tactices" being posted lately is way out of line. What's the purpose of making such a fuss about "Change"?
Change is inevidable, accept it!
If Item Malls are not your thing, move on and find something else. If you can't find something else, do something else.
Stop trying to get people riled up for YOUR sake.....
If you aren't looking at loot and the progress than why do you want to buy stuff from cash shop.
I don't buy things from a cash shop. And I never have, either. HOWEVER, I'm also not going to keelhaul anyone who does. That's their choice and their money, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for making a different choice.
Process and achievment is not important for you to enjoy a game. For you doesn't matter if you're full epic or not. Why speeding up the process of levelling if the highest level is not what you're after to.
And for me, the process and achievment of a game is simply in enjoying the time I spend playing it. Win or lose, big reward at the end or not. How is this such a difficult concept to understand?
I go at my own pace, and don't worry about racing to the end game. If someone else wants to do that, and if they feel that an item from the cash shop will help them, then great. I'm all for them doing whatever they think is best for themselves. Their choices don't affect me at all.
If you aren't looking at loot and the progress than why do you want to buy stuff from cash shop.
I don't buy things from a cash shop. And I never have, either. HOWEVER, I'm also not going to keelhaul anyone who does. That's their choice and their money, and I'm not going to tell them they're wrong for making a different choice.
Process and achievment is not important for you to enjoy a game. For you doesn't matter if you're full epic or not. Why speeding up the process of levelling if the highest level is not what you're after to.
And for me, the process and achievment of a game is simply in enjoying the time I spend playing it. Win or lose, big reward at the end or not. How is this such a difficult concept to understand?
I go at my own pace, and don't worry about racing to the end game. If someone else wants to do that, and if they feel that an item from the cash shop will help them, then great. I'm all for them doing whatever they think is best for themselves. Their choices don't affect me at all.
You don't use cash shop than that's fine. Otherwise that would made you a hypocrite. Since you have a different aproach on mmo then f2p shouldn't be a problem for you but there are a lot of peoples who play for different reason. They are like you when you first started EQ. Fairness, achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
This is the ultimate culmination of the "instant gratification" mentality that has plagued MMORPGs in recent years.
It wasn't enough to dumb the games down, and make sure you never had to accomplish anything....now you don't even have to PLAY to get that next "New Shiny" (tm) item....just BUY IT with your credit card!!
This is the beginning of something VERY, VERY bad. You think WoW did permenant damage to MMORPGs?? Just wait 'till THIS little shit-flower blossoms.
We went from virtual worlds, to virtual Wal-Mart. And the lazy-ass "GIMME! GIMME! GIMME!" generation cheered the whole time.
This and well said.
All Cash Shops in all online games (MMOs some people call them) exist for one and only one reason:
To drain your wallet of extra cash... to tempt you to go the "easy route"...and they justify it by reminding us that we are not as young as we used to be and we don't have the time to earn it ourselves.
Poppycock. It's profiteering pure and simple. It's cheating. Years ago the Players would have revolted... and did a few times. Now it's not only acceptable and defended by Dev and Player alike but also considered cool.
As another Player posted on these forums not so long ago... "The MMO world has gone straight into the Gutter". I agree.
Any Player that buys anything from a Cash Shop in a MMO is Cheating, period. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
AND I want LotRO to remain the kind of MMO where everyone can go everywhere together, not this zone access garbage other MMOs are going to now.(No I did not support MoM and SoM as being expansions that restricted Players movements. Level cap yes, restricted access no.)
Cool story, problem is you dont make the rules. You can claim it as cheating all you want, but it is the rules of the game, set by the people running it, therefore not cheating. Ive said it in another thread when someone else mad ethe same comments as you... You cant go into something like a poker tournament, which has rules defined by the people running the tournament, and just declare that youre changing the rules and everyone must play the way you want or else theyre cheating. You cant just cry foul for some made up reason of your own when the rules are already laid out.
Unless its an MMO you designed, programmed, and run yourself (or a private server of an existing MMO), you have no say in what the rules are, how other people can/should play, or wether or not something is cheating.
I've always hated item shops. They're especially bad for pvp based games.
The only way an item shop can benefit an MMO is if the sale items don't give people an advantage over others (server transefers, stat resets, cosmetics, etc...).
I've always hated item shops. They're especially bad for pvp based games.
The only way an item shop can benefit an MMO is if the sale items don't give people an advantage over others (server transefers, stat resets, cosmetics, etc...).
The PvP in lotro is laughable at worst, a curiosity at best. And there is no distinct advantage to the cash shop in lotro. You can grind for the currency to buy anything in the shop, or you can use money. The choice comes down to time, or money. There is nothing that one side has access to that the other doesn't.
achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
Even assuming that achievements and loot were available in the cash shop, which for this game they are unlikely to be based on the experience with DDO, then no-one need buy them as they can open up the whole game through subscription as at present. Even in games where that is not the case, there's no reason why someone who chooses not to use the cash shop to those ends should resent others having the opportunity to do so given your own statement "to each their game".
It's only if the game is only viable to play if the cash shop is used that people should have a problem with F2P - and only then if the cost of achieving that viability is in excess of what a subscription would have cost them.
achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
Even assuming that achievements and loot were available in the cash shop, which for this game they are unlikely to be based on the experience with DDO, then no-one need buy them as they can open up the whole game through subscription as at present. Even in games where that is not the case, there's no reason why someone who chooses not to use the cash shop to those ends should resent others having the opportunity to do so given your own statement "to each their game".
Peoples that don't want f2p want a game unaffected from outside. Doesn't matter if I choose to or not to pay in cash shop. A mmo is not about you only. Your achievments after all have no meaning if they aren't compared to others. A boost xp potion is considered an unfair advantage and as far as I know ddo have this kind of item. There are peoples who care and peoples who don't. Mixing them is not a good idea.
achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
Even assuming that achievements and loot were available in the cash shop, which for this game they are unlikely to be based on the experience with DDO, then no-one need buy them as they can open up the whole game through subscription as at present. Even in games where that is not the case, there's no reason why someone who chooses not to use the cash shop to those ends should resent others having the opportunity to do so given your own statement "to each their game".
Peoples that don't want f2p want a game unaffected from outside. Doesn't matter if I choose to or not to pay in cash shop. A mmo is not about you only. Your achievments after all have no meaning if they aren't compared to others. A boost xp potion is considered an unfair advantage and as far as I know ddo have this kind of item. There are peoples who care and peoples who don't. Mixing them is not a good idea.
So when you said "to each their game" what you really meant was "to each my game".
achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
Even assuming that achievements and loot were available in the cash shop, which for this game they are unlikely to be based on the experience with DDO, then no-one need buy them as they can open up the whole game through subscription as at present. Even in games where that is not the case, there's no reason why someone who chooses not to use the cash shop to those ends should resent others having the opportunity to do so given your own statement "to each their game".
Peoples that don't want f2p want a game unaffected from outside. Doesn't matter if I choose to or not to pay in cash shop. A mmo is not about you only. Your achievments after all have no meaning if they aren't compared to others. A boost xp potion is considered an unfair advantage and as far as I know ddo have this kind of item. There are peoples who care and peoples who don't. Mixing them is not a good idea.
So when you said "to each their game" what you really meant was "to each my game".
I see.
To each their games means to each their games. "F2p" to those who don't mind cs and sub to those who want a fair game for all. What I find silly is that some saying that this is the future. Every other game at some point will follow ddo and lotro. Yeah because a shitty game like ddo and a so so game like lotro are the pioneers of the golden age that is coming. You like f2p, that's fine play it but don't think that there aren't a lot of players that don't like this type of gameplay.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
Originally posted by Shadewalker I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se. If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them. There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO. As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
I would agree with you if becoming a paying customer allowed access to ALL content in the game. This will not be the case. There will still be the tacted on item shop that will have items exclusive for purchase with real cash.
Comments
No it's more of a carnival midway. You knock down the milk bottles and you get a kewpie doll. The kewpie doll is desirable though and knocking down the milk bottles is an accomplishment. Being able to buy the kewpie doll devalues the accomplishment. Being able to knock down only one bottle and still winning the kewpie doll because you slipped the huckster a couple of bucks is likewise.
I had to chime in. You are not buying the kewpie doll in the LOTRO F2P model. You can buy more balls though. Rewards will not be in the cash shop. Only quest content, consumables and fluff items.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Sorry, but no. Over the years, I've come to make a big distinction between video games and real life, especially in terms of accomplishment.
I played EQ1 from launch until the Ykesha expansion. During that time, I would spend as much time in Norrath as I did at work every day. Entire weekends would be sacrificed to playing and advancing my characters up, and for that next piece of armor, or to face that next boss. I look back on that time now and cringe. All those hours and days spent in a game, and for what? To be able to show off some pixelated armor or weapons? Pfft.
Since then, I've gone out of my way to look for games or experiences that don't expect me to go through all that nonsense again. I simply refuse. All the big "accomplishments" that people talk about in these games? Not that important in the long run. If anything, they become entirely meaningless once you go on to the next game or the next experience anyway, so I just don't pay them any mind anymore. I'd rather just use my time in an MMO to relax and unwind for a few hours at a time. That's why none of these changes to LOTRO bother me, and why the emergent trend of F2P/hybrid games really don't affect me. I'd rather just have fun and enjoy myself than worry that someone else's e-peen is threatened by Turbine changing their pricing model.
Don't think I don't understand what you mean. I know fully and so does every other hardcore player. The problem is that this is how this genre works. Progress equals time and that's why I'm not playing anymore as much as I use too. It's about prioritizing which achievments mean more for you, those in game or those in real. Especially about us 25+. But I, personally don't find the solution in the f2p. Maybe a different type of progress that's not bound to time. I'm totally against the distrupting of ingame mechanics from outside.
YES! Lotro is finally going to GIVE COMPETITION TO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>......>>>>>.>>.>>.
FARMVILLE
Unlikely. Unless your 50 yo old mother is more capable on a comp then mine.
And you're STILL looking at it the wrong way.
It's the ACT of ACCOMPLISHING that matters here. Not the end result.
It's the process that counts.
All you see is the piece of loot at the end.
No. The poster is ACCOMPLISHING something. They're HAVING FUN. Difference being, they're using the commodity of money to get what they want, whereas you use the commodity of time. Both are spending a comparable amount of their individual commodities, ergo the end result is equal.
All the PROCESS accomplishes is how you feel about yourself. While I'm all for earning what you want and working hard for stuff, these are video games. This is a place where we can escape to because we're too busy earning what we want and working hard for stuff in real life. Do I feel jipped that someone else can get the things I have by paying for it? A little, yes. Who wouldn't? I can either whine about it or compare my two options: spend time to obtain it in game, or pay money to get it now. Not everyone will choose the latter option. I'm sure you wouldn't. I probably wouldn't either. But there are plenty who would, which gives meaning to the whole concept of the cash shop in the first place.
And really. We're blowing the impact of the Turbine Store way out of proportions. Turbine doesn't seem like the company (yes, I could be proven wrong, but we'll have to see) that will change their ethics and morals and start selling Level 40 toons for 20 bucks' worth of Turbine Points. The store will be a secondary option, hopefully rarely used at all by VIP customers, acting mainly as the money collection method for F2P/Premium subscribers.
People hear F2P, they cringe and think pay-to-win. I did too, before I looked at the facts. For the last time, Turbine is not making LotRO a F2P game.
When you search for all 65 levels of Burglars on the most populated American server and you get less than 100 results, your game needs more people. Period. Yes, some people choose to be Anonymous and thus don't show up in the search results. Despite that, it shows how LotRO's population has been stagnating over the last couple of months. Whatever it takes to change that, I'll give it a chance.
No it's more of a carnival midway. You knock down the milk bottles and you get a kewpie doll. The kewpie doll is desirable though and knocking down the milk bottles is an accomplishment. Being able to buy the kewpie doll devalues the accomplishment. Being able to knock down only one bottle and still winning the kewpie doll because you slipped the huckster a couple of bucks is likewise.
I had to chime in. You are not buying the kewpie doll in the LOTRO F2P model. You can buy more balls though. Rewards will not be in the cash shop. Only quest content, consumables and fluff items.
So far. If that doesn't bring in enough money to satisfy them then what? The game was already making money so this is clearly about making more money. How much is enough. How long until they start selling mounts?
I understand the fear. But monts is a problem? You get a free mount with every festival. Also I have a free goat with the adventure pack. Which now that I think about it. That adventure pack may have been a test for an item shop. Nothing in the pack but the mount was anythng more than extra storage space and character slots. To me the fun of the game are the quests and middle earth locations. Gear is not that big of a deal in LOTRO because it is a PvE game. It would be a bigger problem in a PvP game. Still I understand that you don't want others to pay real money for items you worked hard to get. The mounts that required a big faction grind to get should never be in the cash shop. But I would have mo problem with the goat or festival mounts in a cash shop.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
All Cash Shops in all online games (MMOs some people call them) exist for one and only one reason:
To drain your wallet of extra cash... to tempt you to go the "easy route"...and they justify it by reminding us that we are not as young as we used to be and we don't have the time to earn it ourselves.
Poppycock. It's profiteering pure and simple. It's cheating. Years ago the Players would have revolted... and did a few times. Now it's not only acceptable and defended by Dev and Player alike but also considered cool.
As another Player posted on these forums not so long ago... "The MMO world has gone straight into the Gutter". I agree.
Any Player that buys anything from a Cash Shop in a MMO is Cheating, period. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
AND I want LotRO to remain the kind of MMO where everyone can go everywhere together, not this zone access garbage other MMOs are going to now.(No I did not support MoM and SoM as being expansions that restricted Players movements. Level cap yes, restricted access no.)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Wrong. Again.
I'm not looking at the loot. I don't care about loot in these games anymore, and haven't in years.
I'm looking at the process. For me, the process and accomplishment are in having fun and enjoying myself. I don't need to spend as much time in these games as I used to in EQ1. I don't define myself or my self-worth as a gamer based on achievements or pixelated loot that I've earned or monsters I've fought. I just play to enjoy myself and have fun. That in itself is an accomplishment, since I'm not looking for anything more out of a game than just to relax and unwind, and to spend time in a game world I find interesting.
If someone else's idea of fun involves buying items in a cash shop to make their time spent easier, then more power to them, IMO. It's their money and their business, and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of a game one whit. I choose to live and let live. Besides, the market is moving in that direction anyway. No sense in blowing a gasket over it, since it's inevitable. I'd rather just have fun while a game is fun.
If you aren't looking at loot and the progress than why do you want to buy stuff from cash shop. Process and achievment is not important for you to enjoy a game. For you doesn't matter if you're full epic or not. Why speeding up the process of levelling if the highest level is not what you're after to.
Very well put Lidane...
The "scare tactices" being posted lately is way out of line. What's the purpose of making such a fuss about "Change"?
Change is inevidable, accept it!
If Item Malls are not your thing, move on and find something else. If you can't find something else, do something else.
Stop trying to get people riled up for YOUR sake.....
It a Game, Shut up and Have Fun!
You don't use cash shop than that's fine. Otherwise that would made you a hypocrite. Since you have a different aproach on mmo then f2p shouldn't be a problem for you but there are a lot of peoples who play for different reason. They are like you when you first started EQ. Fairness, achievments and loot for many is important and that's why they hate f2p. To each their game.
Cool story, problem is you dont make the rules. You can claim it as cheating all you want, but it is the rules of the game, set by the people running it, therefore not cheating. Ive said it in another thread when someone else mad ethe same comments as you... You cant go into something like a poker tournament, which has rules defined by the people running the tournament, and just declare that youre changing the rules and everyone must play the way you want or else theyre cheating. You cant just cry foul for some made up reason of your own when the rules are already laid out.
Unless its an MMO you designed, programmed, and run yourself (or a private server of an existing MMO), you have no say in what the rules are, how other people can/should play, or wether or not something is cheating.
I've always hated item shops. They're especially bad for pvp based games.
The only way an item shop can benefit an MMO is if the sale items don't give people an advantage over others (server transefers, stat resets, cosmetics, etc...).
The PvP in lotro is laughable at worst, a curiosity at best. And there is no distinct advantage to the cash shop in lotro. You can grind for the currency to buy anything in the shop, or you can use money. The choice comes down to time, or money. There is nothing that one side has access to that the other doesn't.
Even assuming that achievements and loot were available in the cash shop, which for this game they are unlikely to be based on the experience with DDO, then no-one need buy them as they can open up the whole game through subscription as at present. Even in games where that is not the case, there's no reason why someone who chooses not to use the cash shop to those ends should resent others having the opportunity to do so given your own statement "to each their game".
It's only if the game is only viable to play if the cash shop is used that people should have a problem with F2P - and only then if the cost of achieving that viability is in excess of what a subscription would have cost them.
Peoples that don't want f2p want a game unaffected from outside. Doesn't matter if I choose to or not to pay in cash shop. A mmo is not about you only. Your achievments after all have no meaning if they aren't compared to others. A boost xp potion is considered an unfair advantage and as far as I know ddo have this kind of item. There are peoples who care and peoples who don't. Mixing them is not a good idea.
So when you said "to each their game" what you really meant was "to each my game".
I see.
To each their games means to each their games. "F2p" to those who don't mind cs and sub to those who want a fair game for all. What I find silly is that some saying that this is the future. Every other game at some point will follow ddo and lotro. Yeah because a shitty game like ddo and a so so game like lotro are the pioneers of the golden age that is coming. You like f2p, that's fine play it but don't think that there aren't a lot of players that don't like this type of gameplay.
I'm not convinced that the critics of F2P here really get the point that LoTRO isn't switching from P2P to F2P per se.
If DDO and LoTRO are setting the new standard for MMO's it is in the way in which they are offering both F2P and P2P business models to their customers so that players can choose between them.
There are perfectly valid reasons for not liking F2P games, but those reasons don't apply to DDO or LoTRO.
As for those who don't like the way other people will be able to play their game, well tough. Get over it just as groupers and soloers, crafters and non-crafters, raiders and non-raiders, PvE'ers and PvP'ers live happily alongside each other. Play the game your own way and don't worry about what the rest get up to. There's absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that the cash shop in LoTRO will give any one player an advantage over another player.
"Can we even call that gaming? Or just shopping?"
Beautiful, you summed up how I feel in one sentence. Shopping for items has no business being in a GAME. Games are about playing them, not shopping.
I would agree with you if becoming a paying customer allowed access to ALL content in the game. This will not be the case. There will still be the tacted on item shop that will have items exclusive for purchase with real cash.