Why any decent person must be against so called "F2P"

Elikal · June 2010

There can be many things said about the so called Free to play or F2P, but it isn't free. Sure, there is that plethora of Asia grinders from gpotatoe and their like. But I guess we can safely assume the majority of MMO gamers HERE does not seek these games as a main entertainment. Those games are not called grinders for no reason, for they are, by and large, just a handful of mobs dropped over a world and now go kill 2000 of each.

The question is, what does F2P mean for us, for the western market? Essentially, nothing good.

First, let's all be clear about one thing. It isn't free. Yes I read the argument here all over that you don't HAVE to buy things from a shop. But how realistic is that? I mean, every person who ever played a MMORGP knows quite well how competitive and aggressive many MMO gamers are. And come on, if you see someone with a really cool helmet or a flaming sword or something "just for show", can you always resist, running around in your sackcloth robe?

The fundamental idea of the classic monthly fee was: everyone has the same chances. So when you saw someone with an uber Paladin helmet or a flaming horse or whatever, you knew: that guy worked hard for what he got. You could envy or admire (or hate) him/her for what he was able to do. For his dedication and hard work. Now, you just open your pocket purse and voila, a Mr Fancy Uber hero in a minute. You can no longer see the hard work on a character. And that means, the hard work and dedication itself vanishes! But wasn't it the driving factor since the days of Everquest and Ultima Online? You saw some great sword or armor on someone, and you wanted to have it too. That was one of the driving momentums of MMO gaming. But what difference does it make when we have "appearance slots" which override the natural armor in combination with cash shops selling fancy gear? We have the death of a huge part of motivation to even play a MMO. It is close to a suicide of what MMO gaming meant for over a decade.

The other side is: it brings in RL differences in social class and richness. Where once it didn't matter if you were a poor person with little income or Richie Rich, now you can see the dollars the player has in the game. The gap between rich and poor finally comes even into the MMORPG worlds, where those born with a golden spoon get all the XP boosting drinks and fancy robes and pegasi mounts and whatever they will think of. And call it "non game relevant."

It is a matter of perspective what is relevant. How many of us can really claim to be that opaque against "fancy" things? In a MMO setting where the competitive feeling is one of the roots of motivation? I know, some people don't admit it, but if you play MMOs you know that most people just are like that. And then, in the end you might end very well paying much more than before! When free gamers get those 4 ugly haircuts and everyone else who get to the shop looks like a model (or cool in the ugly way, whatever makes you tick), then you WANT it. You don't shrug it off. And where does it end? They will always add new content to be paid for. Some folks buy it, others see it and want it too and in the end you only have the choice between feeling like an underling or pay more than you ever wanted to pay! Monthly fee is like flatrate phoning. For the gamer it is the better choice. You pay ONE fee, and you get ALL content. Cash shop payment and VIP access payment is like falling back in the days before flatrate telephone existed! It is not a sted forward, it is a step back! The only side which benefits from it are the companies, by making way more money than befor, because they know people will pay and pay and pay, and it never ends.

Above it all, the question is: what kind of gamer is attracted by F2P? While I don't think all F2P gamers are dorks, it sure can be said they are way less dedicated. Such a thing can easily ruin the MMO community in games, which already has lost much in recent years. When you have a considerable part F2P-gamers in your game, it means those people are coming into the game and can be off to another at any day. If you pay a monthly fee, that is an investment you don't want to let go easily. You feel connected to a game and ultimately to your character. Such gamers form lasting communities. But what sort of fleeting encourters are all the F2P gamers, the game-hoppers? They don't form communites like in the old days, they just consumate. It can fundamentally ruin the community spirit of games, when all is just a fast food, fleeting game where you move from game to game as the fashion of the month and the weekly whim tells you. How can one build on such quicksand?

And I don't buy all this "it is the future, take it or leave it" argument. What kind of thinking IS that? Such decisions are made by men and can be altered by men. They are not natural occurances like bad weather! If customers don't follow it, the model will die out again. You can stop playing such games, and IMVPO I think we should stop playing such games. Once the door is opened, who can say how much further it will go? Did you see the chart from AgentSmith? Take a look at the picture in this thread:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/280849/F2P-the-rip-off-begins.html

I mean, they even make priority access to so called "VIP" gamers! Meaning, if you don't pay you have to WAIT to log in because the more important gamers all come first, and only when they are all in the game and only when there is still some space left, only THEN you freeloaders are also allowed to enter. Do you really want to be that guy? The freeloader who gets the merciful remainders of the dinner? The leftover once the rich and VIPs got fed and happy? Do you want to be in a game world where you know you are a third class citizen? Where your value is to be additional moving environment, to fill the gaps and make the world look more populated? For the developers of such "F2P" games you are like trees or mobs: something more to make the world look more animated. How can any person of honor degrade himself so much as to accept this?

Now we get VIP gaming for the rich and social welfare gaming for the poor. How can any decend person support this? In sum, should F2P arise as dominating model, it would mean no less but the ultimate death of the long lasting commitment and community based MMOs which we loved. Games like EQ, UO, the old SWG and the like. MMORPGs would transform into quick consummated things, like you go into a movie or buy a burger. All that made MMOs great, forming communites which lasted YEARS, based on many dedicated gamers, would die.

Ceridith · June 2010

The moment you can start paying for "progression" or "achievements" of any kind in an MMO, it is no longer a game.

That's my view of it, and that's why I avoid F2P games or any others with RMT.

Loktofeit · June 2010

Originally posted by Ceridith
The moment you can start paying for "progression" or "achievements" of any kind in an MMO, it is no longer a game.

That's my view of it, and that's why I avoid F2P games or any others with RMT.

Which games allow you to pay for progression or achievements?

Did you mean pay to have better equipment or better chances at achievement or progression?

There is a distinct difference between buying a strike and buying a better bowling ball.

And in a game where you are not playing against someone else... does it matter whether or not some guy somewhere at a bowling alley on one of the contenents on this planet is using a better bowling ball than you? ?

VengeSunsoar · June 2010

Originally posted by Elikal
There can be many things said about the so called Free to play or F2P, but it isn't free. Sure, there is that plethora of Asia grinders from gpotatoe and their like. But I guess we can safely assume the majority of MMO gamers HERE does not seek these games as a main entertainment. Those games are not called grinders for no reason, for they are, by and large, just a handful of mobs dropped over a world and now go kill 2000 of each.

And most p2p games are the same, you go out and kill thousands of mobs each. They are grind, grind grind. Lately they have started takign a story/quest on to it to disguise it more but still we kill thousands of mobs. Sheesh thats all we did in everquest, grab a group, park your butt in one spot for hours/days and just kill the same mob over and over and over.

The question is, what does F2P mean for us, for the western market? Essentially, nothing good

Opinion and one I largely don't agree with. Just bad implementations are bad for the market.

First, let's all be clear about one thing. It isn't free. Yes I read the argument here all over that you don't HAVE to buy things from a shop. But how realistic is that? I mean, every person who ever played a MMORGP knows quite well how competitive and aggressive many MMO gamers are. And come on, if you see someone with a really cool helmet or a flaming sword or something "just for show", can you always resist, running around in your sackcloth robe?

Very realistic considering that several studies whose links are on this site show that 90% of the people who play them don't buy anything. So I would say that most people can resist it. Yes you can always resist. I don't believe competition was a really big part of MMO's, a part yes. But only lately has that become the sole focus of the game. With many MMO's, and IMO the majority of gamers, they are just looking for a game to hang to play with their friends in a variety of settings doing a variety of tasks, sometimes competitive, sometimes co-operative, most times just relaxing and fun. Thus MMO's work for them.

The fundamental idea of the classic monthly fee was: everyone has the same chances. So when you saw someone with an uber Paladin helmet or a flaming horse or whatever, you knew: that guy worked hard for what he got. You could envy or admire (or hate) him/her for what he was able to do. For his dedication and hard work. Now, you just open your pocket purse and voila, a Mr Fancy Uber hero in a minute. You can no longer see the hard work on a character. And that means, the hard work and dedication itself vanishes! But wasn't it the driving factor since the days of Everquest and Ultima Online? You saw some great sword or armor on someone, and you wanted to have it too. That was one of the driving momentums of MMO gaming. But what difference does it make when we have "appearance slots" which override the natural armor in combination with cash shops selling fancy gear? We have the death of a huge part of motivation to even play a MMO. It is close to a suicide of what MMO gaming meant for over a decade.

There never was the same chances. Expansion packs always changed it, and collectors edition changed it even more, as did dual boxing. Not to mention time. See above paragraph for the great sword thing and what gaming meant. Hard work and dedication are still in many games, and whether f2p kills it or not (which it won't) is strictly on how the implementation of the f2p works. Most games don't have massive game breakers, and the new model of f2p is basically unlocking content making it exactly like an expansion pack.

The other side is: it brings in RL differences in social class and richness. Where once it didn't matter if you were a poor person with little income or Richie Rich, now you can see the dollars the player has in the game. The gap between rich and poor finally comes even into the MMORGP worlds, where those born with a golden spoon get all the XP boosting drinks and fancy robes and pegasi mounts and whatever they will think of. And call it "non game relevant."

Again this was always part of it. The amount of time a person could spend in game was always a reflection of there RL situation and often depended on their socio-economic status. To think otherwise was naive. And again how they could get an advantage in f2p depends entirely on how the f2p is set up. You can't lump all f2p in one model. See above argument for f2p thing.

It is a matter of perspective what is relevant. How many of us can really claim to be that opaque against "fancy" things? In a MMO setting where the competitive feeling is one of the roots of motivation? I know, some people don't admit it, but if you play MMOs you know that most people just are like that. And then, in the end you might end very well paying much more than before! When free gamers get those 4 ugly haircuts and everyone else who get to the shop looks like a model (or cool in the ugly way, whatever makes you tick), then you WANT it. You don't shrug it off. And where does it end? They will always add new content to be paid for. Some folks buy it, others see it and want it too and in the end you only have the choice between feeling like an underling or pay more than you ever wanted to pay!

Again I disagree with the premise of why people play MMO's. See above for the whole competitive things. A factor yes, the major factor I don't believe so. Just one among many, and still exists in many f2p environments. Again see above for f2p arguments.

Above it all, the question is: what kind of gamer is attracted by F2P? While I don't think all F2P gamers are dorks, it sure can be said they are way less dedicated that before. Such a thing can easily ruin the MMO community in games, which already has lost much in recent years. When you have a considerable part F2P-gamers in your game, it means those people are coming into the game and can be off to another at any day. If you pay a monthly fee, that is an investment you don't want to let go easily. You feel connected to a game and ultimately to your character. Such gamers form lasting communities. But what sort of fleeting encourters are all the F2P gamers, the game-hoppers? They don't form communites like in the old days, they just consumate. It can fundamentally ruin the community spirit of games, when all is just a fast food, fleeting game where you move from game to game as the fashion of the month and the weekly whim tells you. How can one build on such quicksand?

I don't think most MMO gamers are that dedicated. I think most people view them as games, relaxing ways to pass the time. I think it is a small number (relatively) that are so dedicated on the hours (of course the actual definitions of hardcore and casual have yet to be defined so I won't go there too much) and competition. Also considering that blizzard themselves said only 30% of the peole that try there stick around past level 10 means there is a huge huge huge amount of people just trying games anyway. It's allready there, not one that is created by f2p. The investment angle IMO is largely moot, 15 dollars a month is nothing for most people and not a significant reason over free to keep playing. What forms lasting communities is like minding people banding together for a common cause. The spirit of games is ruined by people's attitudes. Wow is reputed to be the worst and it is a p2p game, therefore the conclusion can be drawn that the payment method is not the determining factor in what ruins communities.

And I don't buy all this "it is the future, take it or leave it" argument. What kind of thinking IS that? Such decisions are made by men and can be altered by men. They are not natural occurances like bad weather! If customers don't follow it, the model will die out again. You can stop playing such games, and IMVPO I think we should stop playing such games. Once the door is opened, who can say how much further it will go? Did you see the chart from AgentSmith? Take a look at the picture in this thread:

Not much to say about this. The person voting with the wallet always makesthe biggest impact to companies. But the slippery argument is a logical fallacy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/280849/F2P-the-rip-off-begins.html

I mean, they even make priority access to so called "VIP" gamers! Meaning, if you don't pay you have to WAIT to log in because the more important gamers all come first, and only when they are all in the game and only when there is still some space left, only THEN you freeloaders are also allowed to enter. Do you really want to be that guy? The freeloader who gets the merciful remainders of the dinner? The leftover once the rich and VIPs got fed and happy? Do you want to be in a game world where you know you are a third class citizen? Where your value is to be additional moving environment, to fill the gaps and make the world look more populated? For the developers of such "F2P" games you are like trees or mobs: something more to make the world look more animated. How can any person of honor degrade himself so much as to accept this?

There is a cost to gaming. If you want to do it free, then you have to accept that you will be second for many things. The option right now is pay or don't play at all, with many f2p models at least you can still play parts of it.

Now we get VIP gaming for the rich and social welfare gaming for the poor. How can and decend person support this? In sum, should F2P arise as dominating model, it would mean no less but the ultimate death of the long lasting commiment and community based MMOs which we loved. Games like EQ, UO, the old SWG and the like. MMORPGs would transform into quick consummeted things, like you go into a movie or buy a burger. All that made MMOs great, forming communites which lasted YEARS, based on many dedicated gamers, would die.

See pretty much the whole discussion above.

I disagree with almost every single point in your post.

Venge Sunsoar

VengeSunsoar · June 2010

Originally posted by Ceridith
The moment you can start paying for "progression" or "achievements" of any kind in an MMO, it is no longer a game.

That's my view of it, and that's why I avoid F2P games or any others with RMT.

Fundamentally I agree. Practically though there are enough models of f2p type games that you are paying for content just like p2p.

Venge Sunsoar

Sovrath · June 2010

Originally posted by Elikal

First, let's all be clear about one thing. It isn't free. Yes I read the argument here all over that you don't HAVE to buy things from a shop. But how realistic is that? I mean, every person who ever played a MMORGP knows quite well how competitive and aggressive many MMO gamers are. And come on, if you see someone with a really cool helmet or a flaming sword or something "just for show", can you always resist, running around in your sackcloth robe?

omg I hate this editor!

Well then that is the player's issue is it not?

If the player can't keep his hands out of his wallet becuase he wants to "look cool too" then that might be about something else.

I've played several f2p games very casually. Actually I played Archlord a bit more than casual. And never spent money in the shops except to buy the Favored Soul class in DDO.

It was fun and I most likely progressed at a different rate than many other people but that's going to happen in any game. I simply don't want to spend the 8+ hours per day playing a video game that someone else will gladly be doing. So there are always going to be people who progress faster.

The issue I have with cash shops are possible items that are supposed to be earned like high end gear and xp pots. Or the game putting huge barriers in your way that one has to pay to get around. However, as was posted in an earlier article, those games really don't last too long.

In any case those things I don't like.

I also don't like crass commercialism. One thing that DDO seems to have wafting around it. When I go to a game's website and see that they have those cheap advertisements that I find in hotmail that have nothing to do with gaming that's when I pause and realize that the game company has lost its way a bit.

Still, the system that Turbine has implemented doesn't bother me becuase it is a pay as you go, a la carte system. Only time will tell as to whether it will affect the game in a way that will feel like pollution.

I'll withold my judgement until I'm in the thick of it.

Still, I don't like Starbuck's on every street corner and yet I will go to one if I want a cup of coffee if there is no smaller mom and pop store to go to.

So apparently I have a higher threshold for crass commercialism in my own life. Hate advertisments before movies as well but I still go. I suppose what I'm saying is that for some of us there really needs to be a huge disconnect before we just throw the towel in.

Mine hasn't been reached yet.

oh, and if people don't want to wait to log in and like the game they can subscribe. Problem solved.

[Deleted User] · June 2010

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Yamota · June 2010

F2P are not, and will never be, free to play. They are free to try but that is it.

If anyone is thinking it is free then wake up and smell the coffee. Private companies are in this to make money and if F2P games really were free then they would go bankrupt.

Furthermore F2P is like sports that allow doping. Those that are willing to pay a price can take shortcuts but those that are not willing will be at a disadvantage so it goes completely against the notion of fair play and is solely a tool for greedy companies to make more money.

Kyleran · June 2010

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I disagree with almost every single point in your post.

Venge Sunsoar

This. Thanks Venge, you saved me a lot of typing.

There is no single F2P model. Some are pretty punishing (i.e. ROM) others are more pay as you go content options (which applies to Turbine and even GW's when you think about it.)

People have been willing to pay a premium to gain an edge in games ever since before UO as evidenced by the brisk RMT market there has always been in these games. Game companies realize this and are now starting to cater to those folks, even if indirectly.

I hope most cash shops don't actually offer serious in game advantages via their cash shops (i.e. ROM again) but time will tell on that account.

I don't suffer (much) from gamer envy, I can play my game and accept my lot in the world. (sort of like real life actually)

What I don't want to see is games designed around the cash shop exclusively (as so many Asian games are), I'd prefer to pay for content expansions instead.

Sovrath · June 2010

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I disagree with almost every single point in your post.

Venge Sunsoar

This. Thanks Venge, you saved me a lot of typing.

There is no single F2P model. Some are pretty punishing (i.e. ROM) others are more pay as you go content options (which applies to Turbine and even GW's when you think about it.)

People have been willing to pay a premium to gain an edge in games ever since before UO as evidenced by the brisk RMT market there has always been in these games. Game companies realize this and are now starting to cater to those folks, even if indirectly.

I hope most cash shops don't actually offer serious in game advantages via their cash shops (i.e. ROM again) but time will tell on that account.

I don't suffer (much) from gamer envy, I can play my game and accept my lot in the world. (sort of like real life actually)

What I don't want to see is games designed around the cash shop exclusively (as so many Asian games are), I'd prefer to pay for content expansions instead.

This is pretty much how I feel.

and yes, it's important to remember that people have been using currency to purchase in game items from secondary markets for a long time.

It's very hard for developers/game comapnies to hear players say that they want gold sellers and secondary markets removed from the game only to see spending in the secondary markets rising year after year.

And not all people who buy gold are top end competitive people. I recall speaking to a woman in Lineage 2 who casually mentioned that she bought gold once per week. "just a little bit to help out". When I mentioned that it was against the EULA and that she should be careful who she says that to, she responded that she didn't realize it was against policy but that without it the game would be unplayable for her.

she wasn't looking to be a top anytihing but just wanted to enjoy her time in the game without having to make money. Point is, regular people buy gold just as much as those who want to play "on the edge".

I think that is why convencience items do so well. The problem comes if the game company purposefully makes the game horrendous to play without purchasing items. That is where I have a problem with the system.

Ihmotepp · June 2010

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Ceridith

The moment you can start paying for "progression" or "achievements" of any kind in an MMO, it is no longer a game.

That's my view of it, and that's why I avoid F2P games or any others with RMT.

Which games allow you to pay for progression or achievements?

Did you mean pay to have better equipment or better chances at achievement or progression?

There is a distinct difference between buying a strike and buying a better bowling ball.

And in a game where you are not playing against someone else... does it matter whether or not some guy somewhere at a bowling alley on one of the contenents on this planet is using a better bowling ball than you? ?

Value is ALWAYS comparative.

How can you try and erase that from the equation?"

It works like this.

I want the best bowling ball to use on the alley. Why would I use anything less?

So I go and buy the best bowling ball, and use it. How do I know it's the best bowling ball?

Well?

I know it's the best bowling ball, becaues it is better than all the other bowling balls I compare it to.

And this remains true.

UNTIL, someone shows up with another bowling ball that is better.

You say over and over again, this can't affect me.

But how can that be true?

I am now bowling with a ball that is no loger the best.

How do I know that?

Because I compare it to yours, which is better.

So why do you continuse to state this should have no effect on me?

You can say this: If it was me, I'd be happy buying the best bowling ball, and then when someone came along with a better one, I'd realize mine isn't the best anymore, BUT I wouldnt' want another one, because I'd be happy with the second best .

But you CANNOT say this and be credible:

Because I'd be happy with the second best bowling ball, I expect everyone else to be happy in that situation too, and if they are not, then they are wrong, and they need to think like me.

Perpetuum · June 2010

OP:

Earth Eternal is the major, glaring opposite of everything in your nerd-rage fueled, cliche'd topic. I've spent a grand total of 10$ on that game, and that was just because I wanted the limited edition armor sets that give you ABSOLUTELY NO EXTRA POWER. In fact, they are purely cosmetic and have +0 armor value.

The community is also rock solid and stable. Granted most of my CBT buddies dont play any more but even for an OB game it's going really strong.

I always wonder why people leave out Earth Eternal when they start making wild shameless accusations about f2p games? I agree, most of the asian ones are p2win, but are still fun on some levels. When it comes to western MMOs, though, don't worry! they understand you.

Try out EE and change your mind about f2p titles.

Niakad · June 2010

You say over and over again, this can't affect me.

But how can that be true?

I am now bowling with a ball that is no loger the best.

How do I know that?

Because I compare it to yours, which is better.

I have a car (a bowling ball).

You have a limousine (a better ball).

As far as an actual value is concerned, your ball is better.

When we consider fitness for a particular purpose, my car can end up better (easier to park before shops, for example).

Thus, all this general talk is quite useless.

There is no "F2P". There is DDO. Perfect World, WOFKF, etc. F2P as a general concept is as descriptive as a "tree" (surely, if you happen to live in a desert, the "tree" will be associated mainly with a weak dead things. It does not mean that all the "trees" in the world are like this (though to you it may seem so), it only means that you travelled a little and have no vision).

"P2P" as a general concept is rock solid. Why? Because it is nearly impossible to change its core. The core is simple - every month subs have to pay a certain sum, or face lockout. One can't really change it - there is nothing to change. Cash Shops on the other hand are quite flexible. Sure, the basics are the same for all the Shops, yet it is an actual realisations that matter. And they are not that similar, if we analyse them carefully.

One should simply take any given title, play it for some time, analyse gameplay, analyse Cash Shop and report the findings (objectively, like "due to the Z, X, Y, N factors even VIP sub in DDO Has To pay 10 additional bucks (if he is a hardcore player) and 5, if he is a casual VIP" ). Nothing less, nothing more.

severius · June 2010

Originally posted by Elikal
There can be many things said about the so called Free to play or F2P, but it isn't free. Sure, there is that plethora of Asia grinders from gpotatoe and their like. But I guess we can safely assume the majority of MMO gamers HERE does not seek these games as a main entertainment. Those games are not called grinders for no reason, for they are, by and large, just a handful of mobs dropped over a world and now go kill 2000 of each.

The question is, what does F2P mean for us, for the western market? Essentially, nothing good.

First, let's all be clear about one thing. It isn't free. Yes I read the argument here all over that you don't HAVE to buy things from a shop. But how realistic is that? I mean, every person who ever played a MMORGP knows quite well how competitive and aggressive many MMO gamers are. And come on, if you see someone with a really cool helmet or a flaming sword or something "just for show", can you always resist, running around in your sackcloth robe?

People have long run to gil/gold/credit/isk sites to get themselves what they needed, here at least its in a controlled environment that can very well lead to less accounts being hacked. Secondly not everyone gives a rats patootie what someone else has.

The fundamental idea of the classic monthly fee was: everyone has the same chances. So when you saw someone with an uber Paladin helmet or a flaming horse or whatever, you knew: that guy worked hard for what he got. You could envy or admire (or hate) him/her for what he was able to do. For his dedication and hard work. Now, you just open your pocket purse and voila, a Mr Fancy Uber hero in a minute. You can no longer see the hard work on a character. And that means, the hard work and dedication itself vanishes! But wasn't it the driving factor since the days of Everquest and Ultima Online? You saw some great sword or armor on someone, and you wanted to have it too. That was one of the driving momentums of MMO gaming. But what difference does it make when we have "appearance slots" which override the natural armor in combination with cash shops selling fancy gear? We have the death of a huge part of motivation to even play a MMO. It is close to a suicide of what MMO gaming meant for over a decade.

Huge flaw with this. Obviously not everyone has the same chances. This has been beaten to death over and over again. Some of the things which keep everyone from having "the same chance": Time, many people actually have jobs wives/husbands, school, desire to go outside. Effort, what you call "hard work" is anything but hard work. You get a group and you go kill shit. You get into an uber guild and they carry you, you get to an encounter you haven't seen you hop online and find out the strats (or you open your prima guide book), or listen to the raid leader who has done the research ahead of time. Its nothing but a time sink, which leads to my first point in that time is not equal, not everyone can spend 40+ hours per week in a game. For the developer and the publisher all they want is your money. If they can make something fun, then that is a bonus. What we have is the death of YOUR motivation to play mmos, many people just want to play and socialize with friends.

The other side is: it brings in RL differences in social class and richness. Where once it didn't matter if you were a poor person with little income or Richie Rich, now you can see the dollars the player has in the game. The gap between rich and poor finally comes even into the MMORPG worlds, where those born with a golden spoon get all the XP boosting drinks and fancy robes and pegasi mounts and whatever they will think of. And call it "non game relevant."

I am starting to get a feel for your complaints now, you want a perfect communist world yet it does not exist and cannot exist. Sure Marx and Engels had a nice idea with the Communist Manifesto but if you look at the big communist states you would see that it is not feasible. These differences in social class have always been present in system specs and time availability. These cash shops do, I think, make things a little more even: The people that have work and RL committments can now get the same things that the mouth breathing basement dwellers get, so you should in fact be all supportive of this, if equality is something you actually give a shit about, which I doubt.

It is a matter of perspective what is relevant. How many of us can really claim to be that opaque against "fancy" things? In a MMO setting where the competitive feeling is one of the roots of motivation? I know, some people don't admit it, but if you play MMOs you know that most people just are like that. And then, in the end you might end very well paying much more than before! When free gamers get those 4 ugly haircuts and everyone else who get to the shop looks like a model (or cool in the ugly way, whatever makes you tick), then you WANT it. You don't shrug it off. And where does it end? They will always add new content to be paid for. Some folks buy it, others see it and want it too and in the end you only have the choice between feeling like an underling or pay more than you ever wanted to pay! Monthly fee is like flatrate phoning. For the gamer it is the better choice. You pay ONE fee, and you get ALL content. Cash shop payment and VIP access payment is like falling back in the days before flatrate telephone existed! It is not a sted forward, it is a step back! The only side which benefits from it are the companies, by making way more money than befor, because they know people will pay and pay and pay, and it never ends.

If people want to throw away their money on virtual items let them, they have been for years with the proliferation of gold selling sites. Here's the deal: if people did not want to buy this shit then gold seller/spammer/hacking would have gone the way of the dodo bird years ago. It hasn't, you know why? Fools and their money are soon parted. So, who should make the money then? THe developers and publishers of the games or some bastard in china running a sweat shop?

Above it all, the question is: what kind of gamer is attracted by F2P? While I don't think all F2P gamers are dorks, it sure can be said they are way less dedicated. Such a thing can easily ruin the MMO community in games, which already has lost much in recent years. When you have a considerable part F2P-gamers in your game, it means those people are coming into the game and can be off to another at any day. If you pay a monthly fee, that is an investment you don't want to let go easily. You feel connected to a game and ultimately to your character. Such gamers form lasting communities. But what sort of fleeting encourters are all the F2P gamers, the game-hoppers? They don't form communites like in the old days, they just consumate. It can fundamentally ruin the community spirit of games, when all is just a fast food, fleeting game where you move from game to game as the fashion of the month and the weekly whim tells you. How can one build on such quicksand?

In case you hadn't noticed, this is the mindset of the children that have been raised over the past 20 years. People currently do just consume look at any games population they get to endgame, do the raids, then start petering out until the next expansion comes along.

And I don't buy all this "it is the future, take it or leave it" argument. What kind of thinking IS that? Such decisions are made by men and can be altered by men. They are not natural occurances like bad weather! If customers don't follow it, the model will die out again. You can stop playing such games, and IMVPO I think we should stop playing such games. Once the door is opened, who can say how much further it will go? Did you see the chart from AgentSmith? Take a look at the picture in this thread:

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/280849/F2P-the-rip-off-begins.html

I mean, they even make priority access to so called "VIP" gamers! Meaning, if you don't pay you have to WAIT to log in because the more important gamers all come first, and only when they are all in the game and only when there is still some space left, only THEN you freeloaders are also allowed to enter. Do you really want to be that guy? The freeloader who gets the merciful remainders of the dinner? The leftover once the rich and VIPs got fed and happy? Do you want to be in a game world where you know you are a third class citizen? Where your value is to be additional moving environment, to fill the gaps and make the world look more populated? For the developers of such "F2P" games you are like trees or mobs: something more to make the world look more animated. How can any person of honor degrade himself so much as to accept this?

Now we get VIP gaming for the rich and social welfare gaming for the poor. How can any decend person support this? In sum, should F2P arise as dominating model, it would mean no less but the ultimate death of the long lasting commitment and community based MMOs which we loved. Games like EQ, UO, the old SWG and the like. MMORPGs would transform into quick consummated things, like you go into a movie or buy a burger. All that made MMOs great, forming communites which lasted YEARS, based on many dedicated gamers, would die.

As I stated above, if people didn't already buy money and items then this would never have happened. Look, I understand change is hard to accept. I thought it was assinine to pay monthly for games in any way shape or form... I know that now that DDO has gone F2P I play it alot more than I did years back. Havent wanted or needed to buy anything from the cash shop and the change with lotro means I will go back maybe even get an expansion or two. I can care less if people are buying from the cash shops because we all know that they are, even in games where it is not supported. This at least is a controlled environment and may very well cut down on the amount of spam and gold sellers which actually do disrupt the community.

Ceridith · June 2010

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Ceridith

The moment you can start paying for "progression" or "achievements" of any kind in an MMO, it is no longer a game.

That's my view of it, and that's why I avoid F2P games or any others with RMT.

Which games allow you to pay for progression or achievements?

Did you mean pay to have better equipment or better chances at achievement or progression?

There is a distinct difference between buying a strike and buying a better bowling ball.

And in a game where you are not playing against someone else... does it matter whether or not some guy somewhere at a bowling alley on one of the contenents on this planet is using a better bowling ball than you? ?

It covers anything that would normally be achievable via 'ingame' means, aka, playing the game.

This includes both things that have a tangible effect on gameplay aka progression (levels, gear, etc), and intangible things aka achievements (cosmetic gear, titles, etc).

In an MMO, you are playing 'against' other players. If not in a direct PvP or PvE competitive manner, then in a social manner. Either way, buying your way through the "game", diminishes the game element.

For me, any RMT is too much RMT*

*services such as character transfers, or large content upgrades such as expansions are acceptable, then again, these are not generally considered RMT.

Hellmarauder · June 2010

Show me a commercial MMO that I can be "free-to-win", then I'll buy your "pay-to-win" argument against FTP.

Sad fact is, games OP love require at least $50 to even play, So that doesn't help your position, does it?

Seeing all these recent nerd rage posts against F2P tells me which side is winning.

Cash shop haters are quickly running out of refuge, so you see more of them sprouting hate in forums. Most gamers are busy playing or hopping from one game to next, and never come onto sites like this.

Again, is there a "free-to-win" commercial mmorpg out there, I mean totally free??

All commercial mmorpg's are "pay-to-win", period.

Kyleran · June 2010

Originally posted by Perpetuum
OP:

Earth Eternal is the major, glaring opposite of everything in your nerd-rage fueled, cliche'd topic. I've spent a grand total of 10$ on that game, and that was just because I wanted the limited edition armor sets that give you ABSOLUTELY NO EXTRA POWER. In fact, they are purely cosmetic and have +0 armor value.

The community is also rock solid and stable. Granted most of my CBT buddies dont play any more but even for an OB game it's going really strong.

I always wonder why people leave out Earth Eternal when they start making wild shameless accusations about f2p games? I agree, most of the asian ones are p2win, but are still fun on some levels. When it comes to western MMOs, though, don't worry! they understand you.

Try out EE and change your mind about f2p titles.

You know, I'm one of those people, but perhaps my only serious foray into F2P was with ROM and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to take you up on your challenge and give EE a trial and see if it really is a 'better F2P" than my first go around. Thanks for the tip.

aleos · June 2010

it seems a lot of you that complain about F2P havnt played more that 1 or 2 f2p games if any at all.

Ihmotepp · June 2010

Originally posted by aleos
it seems a lot of you that complain about F2P havnt played more that 1 or 2 f2p games if any at all.

It seems most people havent' ever licked a cat's ass, but are pretty sure it's a bad idea just the same.

Axehilt · June 2010

It's a lot simpler:

Bad item shops are bad.
Good item shops are great.

In good item shops, you can do everything for free and paying simply unlocks convenience, vanity, or playstyle options.

Why even discuss bad item shops? It's useful to identify the reasons they're bad (so mistakes can be avoided in the future) but to excessively discuss bad item shops is useless. Any mention of pay2perform item shops is therefore useless, because the majority of people here agrees that those types of setups are bad.

Honestly more mention needs to be made of League of Legends. If a developer wanders into a F2P thread without seeing excessive mention of the exact "right" way of making an item shop, they could potentially wander back out of the thread without any clue of how to do it right. Which is why I make a point of mentioning it in virtually all F2P threads as exactly what developers need to do. It's basically DDO's setup, except without the slightest scent of pay2perform (which DDO still has...kinda...almost.)

Sovrath · June 2010

Originally posted by Ihmotepp

Originally posted by aleos

it seems a lot of you that complain about F2P havnt played more that 1 or 2 f2p games if any at all.

It seems most people havent' ever licked a cat's ass, but are pretty sure it's a bad idea just the same.

ugh.

this assumes that everyone recognizes that games with these shops are going to be bad all across the board and that people should just NEVER participate in them.

Perhaps I should just introduce you to most if not all of the people I have worked with who will tell you that playing video games, let alone paying a MONTHLY sub is not something that adults do and that paying monthly for any game is a waste of money and that all video games are a waste of time.

Now others can say "no they aren't" and I can then apply your post to that statement?

I think at this point we are beyond the discussion of whether they are all bad or all good and should probably be discussing how they can be bad and how they can be good.

I'll be very curious to be here 5 years from now and see all of the games that have cash shops of one sort or another and take a look at the players who hated them, threatened to leave mmo gaming but in actuality still mmo game in these very games.

Maybe none of us will be playing them or maybe some of us will pick and choose the games with the better models in order to play in online virtual worlds.

Hrayr2148 · June 2010

TLDR

F2P isn't a problem if done right. DnD and now, LoTRO are good models for F2P. Allods online is not.

What do you expect a game like LOTRO to do? It stopped growing. It's a great game, but people stopped trying it out. And, 40% of its current players are lifetime account members... meaning, almost half of its player base isn't paying for the P2P game.

With the F2P model pionered by DnD, you will get hundreds of thousands of people who will be trying out LoTRO that will have never considered it before. It IS free to play, because the game can be downloaded and played. And YES it is a misnomer, because you have to pay for certain content access. But guess what? You DONT HAVE TO PAY. If you feel you have to pay, then that comes from you, not the company.

Here's the cool thing, what if paying to open up access to certain areas and aspects of the game, on average, is LESS THAN $15 a month? How is this not a win win for the company and the new player base? And guess, what, if it is MORE than $15 a month, you have the option of becomming a VIP member. A VIP member is exactly what P2P players are now PLUS free veteran points to spend at the cash shop. So the F2P model for DnD and LotRO INCLUDES A P2P option.

As for those lifetime members? well they're automatically VIP members without having to pay the $15 a month.

This F2P model seems to me to be the great comprimise. This model will SAVE LoTRO. Before you were getting content patches 6 months at a time. This new influx of money will allow content patches maybe every 3-4 months.

In the end, the only downside is that the smaller community will get destroyed by the influx of free loaders. Well, no one is stopping you from creating a smaller, better community within the bigger one.

I'll post something I posted in a similar thread.

I like the fact that I don't have to pay three concurrent subscriptions to play games. And guess what, the subscriber base is pretty sophisticated. If they start playing a F2P with a cash shop that has items which give a competitive advantage, the people won't play that game. They'll move on because the market is heavily saturated right now. Why would developers shoot themselves in the foot by including items that will DRIVE AWAY people?

In the end, games are a form of entertainment. These arn't Constitutional rights. You have no RIGHT to EQUALITY in a paid game. Games are a service you can choose or not, to take part in. The company decides in what matter they're going to charge for the service. Get over it. Stop crying and stop playing if you don't like the direction of a game. The company doesn't owe you anything.

calranthe · June 2010

I have played pretty much everu mmo and before that txt based muds, I used to play alot of western mmo's pay 2 play but they are all based on a very simple system, grind..balance the grind so that its harsh enough to cause a player to play for 12 months + but not bad enough for you to leave.

Some f2p games are bad but personally some are very refreshing, atlantica online I really enjoy and so does my wife, its refreshingly different and fun, yes it has a store and yes i've bought items from there and even that was fun with the chance mechanic.

Remember though there has in MMO's NEVER been a balanced playing field if you believe so your very much deluded.

We play mmo's on pc's so the following is very much true:

24" monitor, 260gtx, faster processor, bigger hard drive, faster 20mb connection, operating system, ram, 3d glasses, surround sound these all give you an advantage in games and thus mmo's, In EVE or Everquest a spawn loading faster on your top of the range pc, your $90 optical connection which means between your pc and the server means you don't lag out with 30 people in the zone and when uberspawn 101 appears you get it first..

as I play atlantica online if you give it a chance I find things that make me happy, that make me want to play, that are fun to do enjoyable lol.

Hrayr2148 · June 2010

Think of the analogy of going to a buffet. You pay $15 bucks and have access to everything.

OR...

You say to yourself, I only like certain things. I'd rather pay for them indvidually. Those fries and salad will only cost me $7, and I don't like or care for the rest of the offer.

F2P model allows you to micromanage your access to the game by paying as little or as much as you want. If it gets to a point where you're paying more than $15 a month, on average, just change your subscription to a VIP member.

Again, how is this a bad thing?

DLangley · June 2010

Please refrain from personal attacks in your posts.

Loktofeit · June 2010

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I disagree with almost every single point in your post.

Venge Sunsoar

This. Thanks Venge, you saved me a lot of typing.

There is no single F2P model. Some are pretty punishing (i.e. ROM) others are more pay as you go content options (which applies to Turbine and even GW's when you think about it.)

People have been willing to pay a premium to gain an edge in games ever since before UO as evidenced by the brisk RMT market there has always been in these games. Game companies realize this and are now starting to cater to those folks, even if indirectly.

I hope most cash shops don't actually offer serious in game advantages via their cash shops (i.e. ROM again) but time will tell on that account.

I don't suffer (much) from gamer envy, I can play my game and accept my lot in the world. (sort of like real life actually)

What I don't want to see is games designed around the cash shop exclusively (as so many Asian games are), I'd prefer to pay for content expansions instead.

This is pretty much how I feel.

and yes, it's important to remember that people have been using currency to purchase in game items from secondary markets for a long time.

It's very hard for developers/game comapnies to hear players say that they want gold sellers and secondary markets removed from the game only to see spending in the secondary markets rising year after year.

And not all people who buy gold are top end competitive people. I recall speaking to a woman in Lineage 2 who casually mentioned that she bought gold once per week. "just a little bit to help out". When I mentioned that it was against the EULA and that she should be careful who she says that to, she responded that she didn't realize it was against policy but that without it the game would be unplayable for her.

she wasn't looking to be a top anytihing but just wanted to enjoy her time in the game without having to make money. Point is, regular people buy gold just as much as those who want to play "on the edge".

I think that is why convencience items do so well. The problem comes if the game company purposefully makes the game horrendous to play without purchasing items. That is where I have a problem with the system.

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you guys wrote.

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Why any decent person must be against so called "F2P"

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV