It's hard to criticize the developer(or game studio). They dont' want to loss money.
I don't think they are trying to beet wow, their probably just looking for a good number like 500k players. Enough that they can make a good profit.
The MMO market is only so big. Players expectation are getting high. Put it in a simple way that people can understand. If warhammer have DAOC's subscription number, their be lossing alot of money. Which is consider success back in the day. If Eve have UO's number, their be making 0 profit.
Now if there's a new Eve type MMO which compete with it directly and take half of their subscriber, their profit will went from 50milion to 0. It's a harsh market.
Sure, you can expect there to be 500k sub games. But there surely won't be alot of it no matter how creative the developer are, because the market is only so big.
The genre is not dying. You only think that becouse the games that are succesful in this genre are not the type that cater to your needs. The mmo genre while not dying has become a bit stagnant though and thats simply becouse its safer to follow the trends. So original games are few and far between or attampted by indie devs that simply dont have the resources to breakthrough into the mainstream and provide the polished experiance of a major dev product. But dont worry all it will take to shake things up in the mmo market is blizzards new mmo. Whatever that thing turns out to be you can be sure that it will alter the mmo landscape.
Originally posted by Illius Originally posted by madeux Where's the choice for "Trying to appeal even to groupers" or "Catering to the hardcore crowd". Gotta love a poll with an obvious agenda.
Just because they're out to get you doesn't make them real.
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
To me it looks like greed to make the player spend more time in the various games ends most games in an endless grind
What everyone (that i know of and from what ive read from the forums of the games ive been playing) is seeking is content a common goal for the community to aim for
Like vanilla WoW where you needed like fire res gear to go to certain places and your guild helped you get it
SWG preCU (ye i know im old so what) where 10+ of your friends logged on teamspeak and just asked "What are we doing today?" and all went to help on some nasty force sensitive misson cuz everyone knew that you would help them when it was their turn someday
Theese days it seems more like everything ends up in "YOU need to:" get reputation, kill 100000 mobs for a title, collect 500 rare drops
In other words usually solo grind forever... SOLO <-- in a MMO game i mean it smells like developers fail to understand the idea of MMO
Most ppl play MMOs cuz they like the community and to play with other people and in endgame they get sent off to do endless SOLO grind
The genre isn't dying, far from. Like the "internet gold rush" ten years, it has had its period of phenomenal (unrealistic) hyping, and just like with the internet soap bubble the "sky is the limit" expectations have burst in some ways.
Plus the genre has known a number of mediocre years. That doesn't mean it will always stay that way, I see a number of new MMO's on the orizon that have actually the potential to create a revival boost to the genre again, injecting some much needed freshness and new developments into it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I meant dying in the way that good quality mmo's are dying... we are left with games like Global agenda wich is not a MMO just like Guild wars and all the other lobby multiplayer games. Sorry the poll is too small to fit all the reasons.
I have some faith in Xsyon as it's a true sandbox.
I'm tired of games like DF,MO,DT trying to appeal to sandbox gamers when they are complete themeparks.
Swtor should be fun considering the whole storyline+voiceover features.
isnt wow and vanguard top notch fantasy mmo's ? This is where i dont understand people saying the games arent good... but when a sci-fi game comes around you are almost obliged to like it since there are no others. This should remind people that no matter how many games of your favorite genre are made into mmo's , you might not find your home/niche in them.
Dying? . My game has 11 million subs. . I look around and it's too crowded sometimes. I think, dam, I ought to move to a less crowded server. . I'm sorry my game killed your game. It wasn't intentional.
I meant dying in the way that good quality mmo's are dying... we are left with games like Global agenda wich is not a MMO just like Guild wars and all the other lobby multiplayer games. Sorry the poll is too small to fit all the reasons.
I have some faith in Xsyon as it's a true sandbox.
I'm tired of games like DF,MO,DT trying to appeal to sandbox gamers when they are complete themeparks.
Swtor should be fun considering the whole storyline+voiceover features.
I've heard these 3 MMO's called a lot of things, but "complete themeparks" is not one of them.
I'd really be interested in knowing what you are looking for if those weren't on the right track at least from your perspective.
I don't think the genre as a whole is dying at all, more people play them than ever before.
I agree that the current designs aren't very appealing but I'm open to new ideas and themes other than high fantasy and have some hope that there will be gaming fun on the horizon.
Perhaps I just have to change my expectations, with so many games coming out these days, perhaps I don't need to play an MMORPG for years at a time.
Maybe we need to start thinking of 3-6 months as a reasonable time to spend in an MMORPG before moving on to the next one.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I found what i was looking for in Xsyon. Its a pure sandbox 100% player driven world. I hate playing a supposed sanbox and then spawn in a premade medieval city with npcs etc.
Sure these 3 games might have SOME sandbox elements but they are not true open sandbox games.
I have not found a good mmo since 2006 , i played ww2online and neocron 2001-2006 . Both of these games died.
Second Life is the only sandbox game in existence. Everything else is mostly team park, eg designed and built by the makers, with a tiny bit of sandbox, eg designed built by players, thrown in. . Why aren't you playing Second Life? It's thriving. Yet another game that isn't dead. . *sigh*
Where's the choice for "Trying to appeal even to groupers" or "Catering to the hardcore crowd".
Gotta love a poll with an obvious agenda.
Bingo.
Just what the forums needed: another solo vs group play thread.
Also it needed another option: "The name of the thread may as well be 'why people don't like ice cream, anymore', cuz MMO's AREN'T dying. Far from it."
I mean there's fantasy, sci-fi, social MMO, what else are there?
If a fantasy game, I want a -lot- more originality, with centaurs, naga, etc as Playable races. I'm sick and tired of the same ol' race clones being used.
Scifi: Star Trek Online, as poor as it is on land, and with weird controls, is a cool concept, and a good backstory. Again though the lack of unusual races alas.
Superhero: Champions is a great example on how to do PvE right, and the next patch will make for more fun. WOuld like multi-limbed options/powers.
All MMOs: Get off the PvP/Korean clone bandwagon! Earth is so rich in mythical characters, and our CPU/GPU combos can handle the load of rendering fantastic races. Gear more to PvE (which helps levels a character), and don't limit yourself to the usual PC races.
"Of all the things wrong with today's RPGs, 2D characters on a 3D background is the worst."
Second Life is the only sandbox game in existence. Everything else is mostly team park, eg designed and built by the makers, with a tiny bit of sandbox, eg designed built by players, thrown in.
.
Why aren't you playing Second Life? It's thriving. Yet another game that isn't dead.
.
*sigh*
Wurm and Xsyon are pure sandbox.
They have stuff like terraforming wich second life doesnt have. Controlling river flows and creating artificial lakes from pure labor and teamwork/dedication.
Second life is much more complex/bigger than a pure sandbox game like wurm/xsyon. You can really do anything in second life its true but it always seems like there is no teamwork/depth involved.
The games in second life did not felt interesting to me and overall the engine does not feel like a game engine, more like virtual world. Nothing wrong with second life but i find Xsyon so much more appealing in every possible way.
I do understand that most games only have very tiny sandbox elements. Neocron had sandbox elements in 2001 , player housing.
Where's the choice for "Trying to appeal even to groupers" or "Catering to the hardcore crowd".
Gotta love a poll with an obvious agenda.
Bingo.
Just what the forums needed: another solo vs group play thread.
Also it needed another option: "The name of the thread may as well be 'why people don't like ice cream, anymore', cuz MMO's AREN'T dying. Far from it."
Quality MMO's are dying, you are stuck with casual f2p wow clones mostly now.
You solo oriented players already have a whole catalog of single player , multiplayer and massively multiplayer games and your still crying about us people that are able to actually socialise with people trough teamwork and fun. This is why i like Xsyon, it's really focused on teamwork and little soloers like you are totally worthless in the world, i love that kind of game .
Comments
It's hard to criticize the developer(or game studio). They dont' want to loss money.
I don't think they are trying to beet wow, their probably just looking for a good number like 500k players. Enough that they can make a good profit.
The MMO market is only so big. Players expectation are getting high. Put it in a simple way that people can understand. If warhammer have DAOC's subscription number, their be lossing alot of money. Which is consider success back in the day. If Eve have UO's number, their be making 0 profit.
Now if there's a new Eve type MMO which compete with it directly and take half of their subscriber, their profit will went from 50milion to 0. It's a harsh market.
Sure, you can expect there to be 500k sub games. But there surely won't be alot of it no matter how creative the developer are, because the market is only so big.
Biased poll is biased. Personally I think many fail because of poor gameplay and trying to hit a mystical WoW marker for players.
It is kind of sad, kind of old, and kind of annoying.
MMOs are growing by leaps and bounds.
MMORPGs are dying.
Then again, how much of the market have RPGs ever really held.
There are more action games, adventure games, real time strategy, fighting, shooters, etc, etc, etc.
If you cannot keep your terms straight, you cannot discuss the topic...much less create topics.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The genre is not dying. You only think that becouse the games that are succesful in this genre are not the type that cater to your needs. The mmo genre while not dying has become a bit stagnant though and thats simply becouse its safer to follow the trends. So original games are few and far between or attampted by indie devs that simply dont have the resources to breakthrough into the mainstream and provide the polished experiance of a major dev product. But dont worry all it will take to shake things up in the mmo market is blizzards new mmo. Whatever that thing turns out to be you can be sure that it will alter the mmo landscape.
Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
more than 800 fantasy based mmos and only a few are actually worth playing, sad isn't it?
There aren't enough 'good' fantasy games..
was thinking the same
And i agree that the MMOs lacks something today
To me it looks like greed to make the player spend more time in the various games ends most games in an endless grind
What everyone (that i know of and from what ive read from the forums of the games ive been playing) is seeking is content a common goal for the community to aim for
Like vanilla WoW where you needed like fire res gear to go to certain places and your guild helped you get it
SWG preCU (ye i know im old so what) where 10+ of your friends logged on teamspeak and just asked "What are we doing today?" and all went to help on some nasty force sensitive misson cuz everyone knew that you would help them when it was their turn someday
Theese days it seems more like everything ends up in "YOU need to:" get reputation, kill 100000 mobs for a title, collect 500 rare drops
In other words usually solo grind forever... SOLO <-- in a MMO game i mean it smells like developers fail to understand the idea of MMO
Most ppl play MMOs cuz they like the community and to play with other people and in endgame they get sent off to do endless SOLO grind
just my penny
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
The genre isn't dying, far from. Like the "internet gold rush" ten years, it has had its period of phenomenal (unrealistic) hyping, and just like with the internet soap bubble the "sky is the limit" expectations have burst in some ways.
Plus the genre has known a number of mediocre years. That doesn't mean it will always stay that way, I see a number of new MMO's on the orizon that have actually the potential to create a revival boost to the genre again, injecting some much needed freshness and new developments into it.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wonder if the question isnt; If TOR ends up being just another pretty copy of everything else.. then what?
Wumi - SWG - Bloodfin - Cancelled
Wumi - WoW - Eu-Kazzak - Cancelled
Bulldozer - Aion - Eu-Kahrun - Cancelled
Wumi - Rift - EU-Riptalon - Cancelled
It isn't dying its been growing for a long time so I have no idea what your getting at.
I meant dying in the way that good quality mmo's are dying... we are left with games like Global agenda wich is not a MMO just like Guild wars and all the other lobby multiplayer games. Sorry the poll is too small to fit all the reasons.
I have some faith in Xsyon as it's a true sandbox.
I'm tired of games like DF,MO,DT trying to appeal to sandbox gamers when they are complete themeparks.
Swtor should be fun considering the whole storyline+voiceover features.
isnt wow and vanguard top notch fantasy mmo's ? This is where i dont understand people saying the games arent good... but when a sci-fi game comes around you are almost obliged to like it since there are no others. This should remind people that no matter how many games of your favorite genre are made into mmo's , you might not find your home/niche in them.
Dying?
.
My game has 11 million subs.
.
I look around and it's too crowded sometimes. I think, dam, I ought to move to a less crowded server.
.
I'm sorry my game killed your game. It wasn't intentional.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I played wow in 2003 ... closed beta... that was the last time.
Not everyone likes to play orcs and elves in a colorfull casual themepark world.
Wow killed originality if that's what you mean.
I tend to think of WOW like Foxconn
promoting child labor.
I've heard these 3 MMO's called a lot of things, but "complete themeparks" is not one of them.
I'd really be interested in knowing what you are looking for if those weren't on the right track at least from your perspective.
I don't think the genre as a whole is dying at all, more people play them than ever before.
I agree that the current designs aren't very appealing but I'm open to new ideas and themes other than high fantasy and have some hope that there will be gaming fun on the horizon.
Perhaps I just have to change my expectations, with so many games coming out these days, perhaps I don't need to play an MMORPG for years at a time.
Maybe we need to start thinking of 3-6 months as a reasonable time to spend in an MMORPG before moving on to the next one.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Lack of fun content.
Though MMO's aren't dying at all, and your poll is biased.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I found what i was looking for in Xsyon. Its a pure sandbox 100% player driven world. I hate playing a supposed sanbox and then spawn in a premade medieval city with npcs etc.
Sure these 3 games might have SOME sandbox elements but they are not true open sandbox games.
I have not found a good mmo since 2006 , i played ww2online and neocron 2001-2006 . Both of these games died.
Sorry this is a mmo forum. Soloers should go play fallout 3 or something.
Point me to a hardcore mmo please , you will realise that they are usually wow clones with huge grinds.
I tend to think hardcore means more dedication, so i prefer open sandbox games like Wurm and Xsyon.
MMo's dont try to appeal to groupers... that's a standard in the MMO industry.
At least my agenda is not to act like i'm the only important player in a game world.
Soloers are a disgrace, a bane to mmo's.
Second Life is the only sandbox game in existence. Everything else is mostly team park, eg designed and built by the makers, with a tiny bit of sandbox, eg designed built by players, thrown in.
.
Why aren't you playing Second Life? It's thriving. Yet another game that isn't dead.
.
*sigh*
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
And your a disgrace to these forums, a bane to rational gamers.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
Bingo.
Just what the forums needed: another solo vs group play thread.
Also it needed another option: "The name of the thread may as well be 'why people don't like ice cream, anymore', cuz MMO's AREN'T dying. Far from it."
If a fantasy game, I want a -lot- more originality, with centaurs, naga, etc as Playable races. I'm sick and tired of the same ol' race clones being used.
Scifi: Star Trek Online, as poor as it is on land, and with weird controls, is a cool concept, and a good backstory. Again though the lack of unusual races alas.
Superhero: Champions is a great example on how to do PvE right, and the next patch will make for more fun. WOuld like multi-limbed options/powers.
All MMOs: Get off the PvP/Korean clone bandwagon! Earth is so rich in mythical characters, and our CPU/GPU combos can handle the load of rendering fantastic races. Gear more to PvE (which helps levels a character), and don't limit yourself to the usual PC races.
"Of all the things wrong with today's RPGs, 2D characters on a 3D background is the worst."
Wurm and Xsyon are pure sandbox.
They have stuff like terraforming wich second life doesnt have. Controlling river flows and creating artificial lakes from pure labor and teamwork/dedication.
Second life is much more complex/bigger than a pure sandbox game like wurm/xsyon. You can really do anything in second life its true but it always seems like there is no teamwork/depth involved.
The games in second life did not felt interesting to me and overall the engine does not feel like a game engine, more like virtual world. Nothing wrong with second life but i find Xsyon so much more appealing in every possible way.
I do understand that most games only have very tiny sandbox elements. Neocron had sandbox elements in 2001 , player housing.
Quality MMO's are dying, you are stuck with casual f2p wow clones mostly now.
You solo oriented players already have a whole catalog of single player , multiplayer and massively multiplayer games and your still crying about us people that are able to actually socialise with people trough teamwork and fun. This is why i like Xsyon, it's really focused on teamwork and little soloers like you are totally worthless in the world, i love that kind of game .