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For Those who Want To Buy APB Plase Read !!! (Not a Troll) (Not Violation OF NDA)
Renoaku
Member EpicPosts: 3,157
This Does not violate NDA, as I pre ordered the game, and Experienced the Following Issues, Before you Question me, or my Computer, or over Ten Years of experience, Question APB/Steam Poor Programming..
I just pre ordered APB from Steam Approximately 3 Hours ago, and Downloaded it, When I installed it, APB Failed to launch, Installing Visual C++ Run Time from Steam, Which is bullshit because my computer already has it, No way to override, Installing Direct X, I use DX11 already, and such, After trying like quite a few times to do this, I Discovered that just to Play APB, I have to run Steam as An Administrator on Windows Vista, and slow down my PC From Loading up just because I have to click continue, if I want steam to start as default, or Disable UAC. This is Dumb...
Second Issue...
APB Has Spyware, This is right Folks, and I am not kidding, Please read before you talk crap...
It uses a program Called Punk Buster, Also Known as an Anti Cheat System. When I downloaded APB, I was not aware this game used such software, and it installed it on to my computer without me having to accept any agreement by APB, I only accepted a Steam Agreement, And did not have to accept one from the Creator OF APB at all, at which point their service Installed other things without Consent.
That is right, they Modified Physx Drivers, and Installed Punk Buster, without my express Consent, I could sue them if I wanted, although No Damage done, because again I am a PC tech, and I can fix anything if it should happen.
Here is my main issue with it. Even though I can bypass APB by simply going to the folder and running the Updater instead of through Steam Specifically, I have to also run that as an administraitor so it can run Punk Buster, But Punk Buster gives me serious issues, please read below for more details.
**Quote From F.A.Q**
Is this new stuff going to make my computer slower?
Every running service, program and driver consumes computer resources. All PunkBuster components are designed to be efficient in that regard. When not playing a PunkBuster enabled game, the PunkBuster services are in "sleep mode" which means they are idling and waiting for a game with PunkBuster to be fired up. While playing on a PunkBuster enabled server, the new PunkBuster components are designed to use as much spare cpu power as is available during game play without draining too much power that would be used by the game itself. Newer systems having multiple cpu or a multi-core cpu provide an additional efficiency boost for the new components.
I am sure I can get this game to play okay on my computer, and Limit punkbuster to what it can do on my computer, so that I can run my other games at the same time, However my concern is how this will have an effect on other Individuals who have bought, or played this game without knowledge of this application being installed. Punk Buster in General Will slow down your computer a Hell of a lot, especially if you are trying to play like 5 games at once normally like I do, I like to run Second Life Twice in a row, and Leave one of my Free to play games running mining or something like Karos, while I play another game usually 100 Lag Free, However with Punk Buster, I will be lucky if I can even do this properly.
I suggest that they do the following.
1. Fix an agreement so that people have to see it, because I agree to nothing when I installed, and People could take Legal Actions even if their software did nothing to their pc, they could claim it did, and sue saying so, as they did not see or accept an agreement.
2. They need to Remove PunkBuster, This is a piece of crap which does not do any good really, or at least inform people of such on their site before buying such...
3. Fix it so it does not have to be run as admin on Steam, and give issues using a Steam Launcher. Only acception is to do it manually as admin.
Comments
This was actually very interesting to read, and makes a lot of sense now why I have been lagging and why I also can't bring up other games as well. Hmmmm, seeing how people are still getting around punk buster, I am going to agree with you and say you're right.
I mean if this program isn't helping get rid of the problems, even before a launch. This is NOT good. I was curious why an I7 processor could lag but *Shrugs* this is the answer. What do you think we should do? Bring this to their immediate attention? Post something on their forums? send an email? I'm not being sarcastic at all, because I really do not enjoy lag while playing a game. This is a problem I have been trying to fix on my PC for a couple days now.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Now this is true, but I wasn't aware that they had punkbuster running. I know that I -can- lag in certain games. But not that bad. A spike maybe here or there,but I do know punkbuster does take up speed. well either way, this is something that does need to be looked into.
A little more in depth might I add. Pull up some more research I suppose and speak with one of their moderators or something to pick their brain.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
He's not a PC tech. There is so much in that post that screams "amateur" it actually made me laugh.
PunkBuster (or a similar anti-cheat product) is a requirement for many games, FPS and MMOs alike. Wow has it, hell, Everquest even had it 10 years ago.
You describe "Lag" - which most people misunderstand as poor video performance. Unless your CPU (or one or multiple cores) is spiked at 100%, then it has no measurable impact on your system. It could possibly be a bandwidth issue, but PB does not constantly stream anything across the network.
You, sir, have just fallen victim to a "shrink wrap" agreement. And yes, if you are prepared to spend the next few years fighting it, you could sue. But as you said, there are no measurable damages. If you can get a few hundred others, maybe you could file a class action, in which case you would probably get $5 or so back.
Now, here's the real issues:
> I only accepted a Steam Agreement, not an agreement to Install APB at all
So you are not bound to the publisher's EULA? I suspect this is somewhere in the steam EULA.
> **Quote From F.A.Q** ....
As you summarized, there is no real impact to running PunkBuster on your system.
>I have to run Steam as An Administrator on Windows Vista, and slow down my PC From Loading up just because I have to click continue, if I want steam to start as default, or Disable UAC.
Sounds like you have an issue with UAC here, not APB. On the one hand, you want to circumvent it, yet you realize doing so is a bad idea. Perhaps Windows 7 would be a better choice?
And just to nit-pick a bit more... You complain about PunkBuster taking up precious resources on your system, yet you want to run steam all the time, from start-up? huh?
Firstly, if you didn't want to deal with Steam you probably shouldn't have ordered it from there. Secondly, not every MMORPG has their own handbuilt anti-cheat system like WoW. Let's also not forget that WoW goes through your computer and records system information and sends it back to Blizzard, which is something you do consent to in the Terms of Agreement.
WoW got into a lot of flak from the community when it was discovered that their anti-cheat system was browsing their computer not only for system information, but the websites they visited as well.
A bit of Sarcasm here, but if you want Privacy, the best thing you can do is not even use the internet. Period. I mean, every single Google search you do is recorded permantly in a big file that can be pulled up at any time.
*most* of the time PunkBuster is optional. Many early games I've played (Especially FPS) allow you the option of not installing PunkBuster. I've never used it myself, but until APB gets some better form of anti-cheat, I say it's probably for the best. PunkBuster has been a pretty big name in FPS anti-cheating for a while. And yes, some people get around it, true, but it's not a significant amount of people that ruins the whole experience for everyone.
EDIT: Also, to the guy above. WoW does not use PunkBuster. It uses Warden. WAR uses PunkBuster, or it used to. Not sure if it still does; however.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
PB isnt spyware, its just a horrible excuse for an antihack.... it runs under 2/3 processes, and is totally ineffectual... i can run circles around it on any game through various exploits, and it routinely declares war on some users for mundane reasons lol... one fun little thing that u could possibly call PB spyware is the fact it tries to inject itself into as many processes as possible, very similar to a trojan... and it also scans the memory constantly, similar to spyware.. also PB launches with system startup, no matter whether ure playing a game... lastly, PB iplaces various processes in system32, and other windows files...
some fun stuff is this:
In PunkBuster's EULA, PunkBuster notes they may be considered invasive, and that they reserve the right to inspect someone's entire harddrive and all of their files: "Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, Licensee's Internet Protocol Address, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed." "Further, Licensee consents to allow PunkBuster software to transfer actual screenshots taken of Licensee's computer during the operation of PunkBuster software for possible publication." "Licensee agrees that any harm or lack of privacy resulting from the installation and use of PunkBuster software is not as valuable to Licensee as the potential ability to play interactive online games with the benefits afforded by using PunkBuster software."
APB should have al least tried for VAC from valve, its much more secure (IMO) and not nearly as invasive
From wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PunkBuster
Hah Yep can’t believe I wrote that part wrong. What I mean is I did not have to accept an agreement when I installed APB on my system from the company who makes the game. And they Installed all this other stuff without my consent, not that anything happen or anything but it is really a debatable argument.
While I have never used PunkBuster personally, I will echo what I've already said. It's better than nothing.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
*cough* http://www.viddler.com/explore/Gang25/videos/1/
APB is better without any antihack... the short version of my paragraph above was that PB is utterly useless...
and to the OP,
Third Party Software
5.2 You acknowledge and agree that:
5.2.1 the Third Party Software is licensed to you under separate terms and conditions to this End User Licence Agreement;
5.2.2 the Third Party Software is licensed to you directly by the third party licensor or third party supplier of such Third Party Software and is licensed subject to the respective third-party licensor's or third party supplier's terms of use and policies, which shall solely govern the use of the Third Party Software;
5.2.3 any warranty given by the relevant third party licensor or third party supplier in respect of the Third Party Software shall be the only warranty given in respect of the Third Party Software. RTW gives no warranty or other assurance, whether express or implied, in respect of the functioning, quality or performance of Third Party Software;
5.2.4 you may view the relevant third party licensor's or third party supplier's terms of use and policies prior to downloading and installing the Third Party Software. We advise that you read these carefully prior to downloading and installing the Third Party Software. Your acceptance under condition 1.2 above constitutes acceptance of such terms in addition to those set out in this End User Licence Agreement.
from the APB site
I know, I was never told about any such agreement Before I was required to install their software is what I am saying. They need to fix the issue before release on the steam Version, as I received no such info, and technically it was not Legal to make any changes, Install, or Modify any software without consent. I know they had an agreement, but I was not asked to accept one upon installation of APB on Steam. I was required to read and accept a basic Steam Subscriber agreement only.
Posted the same thing on their Forums as well, I hope they understand the issue, and actually resolve it =^,,=
http://na.apb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=63425#post63425
Reno, I got bad news for you. Almost all triple A mmos have something like Punkbuster running in the background. Also all FPS that uses steam uses punk buster.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
The only good thing Steam has ever given me that I will treasure always is a free version of Portal. The greatest FPS ever made.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
Reading the thread topic, I actually thought the OP had a valid point. I then realized that he is just a clueless noob. Nothing to see here.
Yes I am aware that most MMO games on the market use programs like.
GameGuard.
Punk Buster
VAC
Xtrap
And or other security.
However Most MMO games have an agreement that you have to accept, APB did not, that is what I am saying. Steam has an agreement which I had to accept to install Steam, Which gave them consent to run VAC on their games. APB Did not have a 3rd party agreement to do such on their installer, or anything after I downloaded and accepted the basic agreement with Steam.
Apb also did not give any other boxes other than the message on their client updater that said Installing APB, and I was actually allowed to Launch their game, without accepting any agreement, Therefore I could Pirate their game to anyone I please, and not get into trouble, Not saying that would do any good because it requires a key, but my point being, I accepted no agreement, Until I clicked Create New account where I was required to do such, Therefore anything before that point on was illegal for them to do, and could result in problems for them later if they don’t fix it, that is my whole point.
devalon... ure utterly wrong... Steam has not used PB for years... they use VAC2.... on the subject of the other antihacks, none of them start on startup and uses 3-4 locations + registry keys to preserve itself... although GG is similar to PB, its much easier to uninstall... lastly, a game is only as secure as its code is... meaning that if weapon stats, health, location/money is client sided, itll get wrecked even if u have the best checks...if u dont kno shit, dont post...
also ren, ure also pretty wrong, if ud read my posts....
Third Party Software
5.2 You acknowledge and agree that:
5.2.1 the Third Party Software is licensed to you under separate terms and conditions to this End User Licence Agreement;
5.2.2 the Third Party Software is licensed to you directly by the third party licensor or third party supplier of such Third Party Software and is licensed subject to the respective third-party licensor's or third party supplier's terms of use and policies, which shall solely govern the use of the Third Party Software;
5.2.3 any warranty given by the relevant third party licensor or third party supplier in respect of the Third Party Software shall be the only warranty given in respect of the Third Party Software. RTW gives no warranty or other assurance, whether express or implied, in respect of the functioning, quality or performance of Third Party Software;
5.2.4 you may view the relevant third party licensor's or third party supplier's terms of use and policies prior to downloading and installing the Third Party Software. We advise that you read these carefully prior to downloading and installing the Third Party Software. Your acceptance under condition 1.2 above constitutes acceptance of such terms in addition to those set out in this End User Licence Agreement.
I wouldn't worry about the whole PunkBuster thing. If APB ends up being a huge Triple-A Hit, then they'll likely make their own like Warden. If it ends up being a flop. Well, at least you can say you've used PunkBuster! Because that'll probably be the best it gets...
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
Most offline games have this aggrement because you have a choice to play single player. This is why you are confused/
As desp posted it was in the eula/tos.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
I have no problem with Punk Buster Really, Im just asking that this company Fix their Agreement, and make people aware of such before they can actually Launch and play the game. The Steam Verson does not require you to, until you actually Launch the game, and click New Account, at which point if you did not accept their agreement, they could be Legally Held Responsible for anything they did without consent, or without any Digital Signature.
http://na.apb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=63425#post63425
Also it does not matter if it was in EULA/TOS, if I had not created an account with them, I would have never read, or seen any such agreement, Therefore anything they did to my PC before I Created the account **BY LAW** would be illegal for them to do without consent, such as installing anything else, or damages that came from their software.
I hope it does. It would make all newer mmos focus more on customization. It all APB has going for it. For an AA mmo It awesom.
--
"Any free people have the right to choose how it wants to be govern thats the essence of democracy. It's sad when America has chosen for the stability and consistency of a dictatorship and doing it democratically" -utnow
You're an idiot.
If you're a "PC tech" as you claim to be, you would uninstall Vista in the first place and rollback to XP or get Windows 7.
I've got my eyes on APB. I'm hoping it ends up being a success. The MMORPG market is a little dry right now while everyone sits around waiting for expansions. That's the best time to strike with something original.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
heres something funny.... APB doesnt even have a hook to check if PB is ruing, so in effect it doesnt have an antihack...
Maybe that's why it's called "Punk"Buster? Because you got "punked" for installing it! Ha.. Ha.. Yeah... See what I did there? Hey guys; scoot over! I need a place to sit on this bandwagon and you aren't leaving me any room!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
As a guy who plays both FPS and MMO games it's pretty funny to hear people talk about Punkbuster, which is probably one of the most commonly used anti-cheat programs, as though its some sort of foreign alien technology.
For a being a 10 year computer tech, you're missing a lot of common-sense-knowledge.
1. You still use UAC? The better question is, you still use Vista? :P Get Windows 7 and turn off UAC. It makes life easier.
2. I rather like PunkBuster, I've never had an issue with it since I began with Battlefield 2 four years ago. It is not spyware in any way, except that it scans your game's files to make sure nothing has been modified. I'm sorry you don't want any kind of anti-cheat protection. A good number of us like having that. Even if it doesn't stop everything.
3. Not sure if you've ever (EVER) used Steam before, but each time you install a game, it runs through the run time and DirectX installs. No, it doesn't actually install them if you have them, it will scan and make sure you have the newest ones and move on. This is nothing new, nor is it poor programming. It simplifies the process by removing two more menus and adding a whole 10 seconds onto the install time.
4. PunkBuster does nothing to my system (2.8Ghz Q6600 Quad2Core, 6GB DDR2 Memory, Nvidia EVGA GTX285) granted I, like normal people, don't run 5 games at a time. Rather I run one, sometimes two if I need to adjust something on EVE, and then a web browser with maybe 10, give or take a few, iTunes, Disby, Steam, Xfire, little background programs like that.
5. Yes, Realtime Worlds does present you with an End User Licensing Agreement. I got mine at least.
Lastly, I'm very surprised any of this brought concern to a 10 year computer veteran. An online FPS with PunkBuster? Steam running it's little 10 second mundane run time and DirectX checks? UAC being a waste of time?
I really don't want to sound rude, but you need to loosen up a bit. Not only are the little things you mentioned... well, tiny. But none of them affect the game, nor do they really have much affect on your system. They're harmless. You have to remember, RTW isn't thinking "You know, maybe we shouldn't put in PunkBuster and rather have a hack infested game with no protection. You're right, because it will slow down people's computers to the point where they can't EVEN play 5 games at once. What a shame".
- Eric M.
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