OP, not everybody is citicizing it in this manner. Some people do indeed criticize it on things that the game was never ment to be, but not all of them claim that there was a time when they believed the game was. They just criticize it in general for not trying something new or for catering to mainstream MMO players (i am a mainstream MMO player btw, just not a mainstream gamer in general). Personaly I think this people do have a point, its is true that bioware is doing nothing new so far except for the story elements. This is cirticism that is very opinion related. Many people may have no problem with the lack of innovation and there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Further more, the fans of this game are go -I LOVE BIOWARE- ing way to far in dismissing some of the criticism and therefore, some critical people might hyperbole on their opinions. It is frustrating the way the fans tread some very well argumented criticism wtih very bad and unargu -I LOVE STARWARS- mented replies. It seems that the fans believe there is such a thing as haters, people who want to destroy their beloved game and want it to fail, and want to destroy the fun for the fans. They argue that they do this because they want to defend their own game or just dont like it in general and want to ' troll'. This is the most rediculous tenedency i have ever heard of and is also completely false. Other than some hormonous 15 year old who would do things that I stated above, most peopel do not HATE a game for the sake of hating it or because they fear for their beloved MMO. Just because some people are cirtical of things they see or hear, doesnt mean they hate the game or developer or entire genre or whatever.
- I LOVE BIOWARE AND I LOVE STARWARS-
I have seen things like this: "The combat looks crappy in the vids"
Reply from fan: "Omg you people look for things to hate, HATERS."
WHAT?
More blind replies by the fans:
A. Haters cant really say anything about the game because we hardly know anything yet.
B. The videos that some people dislike so far do not say anything about the game's final state.
C. Just because there hasnt been said anythign on that subject, doesnt mean it wont be there. It is still 9 months b4 launch.
(Do you see how all these things can be used on the fans aswell: Why do you love this game? You do not know anything!)
How much things can be done in 9 months. 9months isnt that much and all the plans on the major features etc have mostly been made. That is why it worries -I LOVE BIOWARE AND STARWARS- me that BW is vague and withholding on information. I am affraid that they do not want to give negative answers and therefore dont answer them. Im affraid of fiasco like with Mythic. I can tell you this: In 9 months, BW is not going to: Change the combat and other things we saw in the vids that were not very good (imho) + at all those features they talked about but that we havnt seen yet + are going to implant even more features that they havnt answered upon yet such as space combat etc. It is not going to happen, not all together. So why do they not show some of those features they talked about? Why so vague? They are going to change it all within 9 months? You peopl realize that in those 9 months the game must be: Bug free, servers must work properly, must be shiped etc. You do realize that there is little time to implant new features at this point or ever THINK of extra features? I' am not saying that this proves anything. It could be that they just withold info and material from us eventhough it is completed. However it is interesting to think about it.
-I LOVE BIOWARE AND STARWARS-
-I LOVE BIOWARE AND STARWARS-
I figured and I'd better repeat that sometimes in the post so that people wont call me a hater. But be carefull ' lovers' I might be a Troll in DISGUISE!!!! Maybe i am just pretending so that i can be negative about a game, because that is something I just really like to do and spent time on. Yes you got me....................
All im saying is that there are plenty of things to be critical about when it comes to ToR. I'm not going to to repeat them all since there is plenty of topics you can find it in. This critique is not absolute, you can discuss it and have OPINIONS about it. Some people might think something is bad while others do not. But ofcourse the people who find something to be bad should just leave and dont play the game. It is not like this is a discussion board or anything, go away!
Pretty much sums up my opinion... +1
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
What, you're appealing to the fans now, with your brilliant deductions?
Yeah, yeah, we know, you don't like SW TOR at all...
... yet you keep posting in the TOR forumthreads oh so willing to try and convince others that they should have the same taste as you and not like SW TOR too. Sorry, won't happen, your posts are too onesided and biased for that, basically coming over as a form of gloating and trolling.
He's trolling and you're taking the bait like some kind of newcomer to the MMO genre. WTF Bro, dissapoint.
Pff, buzzkill, let me go in 'outrageous, aggrieved fan' mode if I want to play, I'm waiting for the even more elaborate counter reply in which people are trying to convince me how wrong I am and how 'reality' really is. Iz fun.
Plus, on a sidenote, the poster really believes his arguments, he's a fan(boi) of another game/company that we won't mention here. So, onesided, biased arguments leading to even more fun.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Personally, I think discussion is harmless. This project has its supporters and critics, some more or less rational than others. It doesn't hurt anyone to let everyone be heard.
Exactly. There isn't a ridiculous criticism. Peoples want different things from this mmo. Of course the game will not satisfy anyone but giving your opinion doesn't really harm the game. I doubt anyone would want for this game to fail or any other game for that matter. The problem is that fanbois, who are exited see the criticism as an attack to their dear game.
Patently FALSE. The idea that a criticism can't be ridiculous is 100% wrong. I can give you many examples. I agree 100% with the OP in regards to this game, mainly because the open world open class pvp crowd tend to be by far the most ridiculous people on these forums and are the worst part of the MMO community, in my opinion. They're the most inflexible about what they want in a game. They're like christians in that rather than 1 major group with varying opinions, they have 200 different subgroups that have 95% overlapping beliefs in what they want, but because of 1 minor niggle point they feel like they have to differentiate themselves and thusly hating each other (try calling a baptist a calvanist, or vice versa, you'll get an idea of what i'm talking about).
So yes, the OP is right. That crowd conjured up their own expectations of what the game would be based entirely off of their predispositions and desire for a return to the glory days of SWG. The developes never said or did anything even remotely in line to support that line of reasoning. It was entirely in the minds of that crowd of players. So yes, them criticizing the game for not being what they assumed it would be is absurd and wrong, and entirely unjustified. Its like going to a Ming Jon's Chinese Palace and then getting pissed because they don't serve carne asada burritos.
Well you can't blame peoples for having certain expectations. This forum is frequented by a lot of peoples, everyone of them wanting something different. I have my expectations as well. Open world? Why can't swtor be open world and how do you know it will not be. Why not world pvp. Why the cartoonish look.
We conjured up our expectations and still do because we don't know yet fully what this game is gonna be. Making assumptions and expecting certain features will not harm the game.
The op said (Isn't it unfair to critisize this game for not being something that it was never trying to be). How does he know what the game is gonna be and why does he thinks that certain things we expect will not be in the game. We don't know much about the game yet anyway so peoples will keep making assumptions.
I am sure this game will be interesting, but lets face a certain reality. They do not have to put very much into a game that has two names to sell it, Bioware fans and Star Wars. The name sells the game, rather than have a good game to sell itself. Personally that is the only reason I think Turbine survived, actually that was their intent.
The graphics are a bit too "toon" for my tastes, and unless you watch the newest animated star wars junk Lucas keeps pooping out, you probably wont like it either.
Anyways, I find there a lot more games to respect and worth paying attention to right now. At E3, Rift: Planes of T, impressed me the most.
SWTOR will probably appeal only to the die hard fans or the youths, but I cannot see it staying strong in light of the competition when it comes to a more mature target audience.
Well I draw logical conclusions after every new info I see.
I used to call it WoW in space, then realized theres no space (E3) so now it's WoW with lightsabers.
So I changed my mind you see?
Allthough to be fair one of the Bioware dudes did say that there MAYBE will be some space in some way or another meaning I might switch back to calling it WoW in space, we'll see.
I'm also glad that Bioware FINALY came out and admited exactly what many of us were suspecting for months, WoW clone.
WoW kiddies are cheering now, good for them.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Well I draw logical conclusions after every new info I see.
I used to call it WoW in space, then realized theres no space (E3) so now it's WoW with lightsabers.
So I changed my mind you see?
Allthough to be fair one of the Bioware dudes did say that there MAYBE will be some space in some way or another meaning I might switch back to calling it WoW in space, we'll see.
I'm also glad that Bioware FINALY came out and admited exactly what many of us were suspecting for months, WoW clone.
WoW kiddies are cheering now, good for them.
Where are the days when the first screenshot of Tor gpx was shown and nightmarish idea of copying wow crawl in the back of my head....I can see it like yesterday how people told me that the game will be soooo different because of BW, because its star wars...
The "I told you so" day is coming very soon
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
This is why people should read interviews more often. Back in 2005 when BioWare set up the Austin studio and announced they were working on an MMO they had interviews with the studio heads and it pretty much came out as "We're huge fans of WoW, its fantastic".
Then we heard about how they wanted to inject real story into their MMO, then SWTOR was announced, companions were announced and it being a sequel to the KOTOR series as well.
All of this leads to one conclusion, its a linear, story driven MMO with optional multiplayer features, yes an MMO, but not a sandbox, not a massive open world, not SWG v2...
Each time BioWare talk about SWTOR, they just confirm things they've hinted at for years, but everyone is so blind by their own desires they just can't see this, they ignore everything but the solid facts in the blind hope that it will be something different.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This is why people should read interviews more often. Back in 2005 when BioWare set up the Austin studio and announced they were working on an MMO they had interviews with the studio heads and it pretty much came out as "We're huge fans of WoW, its fantastic".
Then we heard about how they wanted to inject real story into their MMO, then SWTOR was announced, companions were announced and it being a sequel to the KOTOR series as well.
All of this leads to one conclusion, its a linear, story driven MMO with optional multiplayer features, yes an MMO, but not a sandbox, not a massive open world, not SWG v2...
Each time BioWare talk about SWTOR, they just confirm things they've hinted at for years, but everyone is so blind by their own desires they just can't see this, they ignore everything but the solid facts in the blind hope that it will be something different.
Pathetic.
It's ironic that you critisise people for jumping to conclusions and therefore being blind to facts (or lack of them), and yet you show exactly the same traits yourself.
Linear MMO? Not a massive open world?
These are all assumptions, we have yet to see any evidence to confirm or deny what you claim.
Well I draw logical conclusions after every new info I see.
You can't draw a logical conclusion based on a lack of sufficient information. What you're doing is making an assumption.
When a developer say:
dev: That feature will be similar to WoW
Q: what about this one?
dev: WoW like.
Q: what about this one then?
dev: Wowish
etc etc...
Thats more then sufficient information for me.
To make an assumption about the overall game? Good trick. "Like" is not exactly the same. We are all (I assume) human beings here. That makes us alike. That does not mean we are clones.
Some people are not comfortable with the fact that something is different to something else. They feel compelled to use existing labels, regardless of the fact that the label itself is grossly inaccurate and doesn't in fact reflect the true nature of the item.
Bioware made approximations and generalisations during the interviews in order to give people a little more information about the product. Unfortunately that means that certain individuals on these forums are so obsessed with labelling the product as a "WoW Clone" regardless of how stupid that makes them sound.
Just go read one of the interviews from E3 (linked many many times) and tell me what conclusions you draw from it.
The point is, DON'T draw any conclusions, take what you heard at face value. The information we got does not accurately depict the entire game. The videos where made to show off the dialogue options, a bit of combat, a bit of grouping and a bit of graphics. To draw conclusions about the whole game based on those interviews and videos is foolish.
This is why people should read interviews more often. Back in 2005 when BioWare set up the Austin studio and announced they were working on an MMO they had interviews with the studio heads and it pretty much came out as "We're huge fans of WoW, its fantastic".
Then we heard about how they wanted to inject real story into their MMO, then SWTOR was announced, companions were announced and it being a sequel to the KOTOR series as well.
All of this leads to one conclusion, its a linear, story driven MMO with optional multiplayer features, yes an MMO, but not a sandbox, not a massive open world, not SWG v2...
Each time BioWare talk about SWTOR, they just confirm things they've hinted at for years, but everyone is so blind by their own desires they just can't see this, they ignore everything but the solid facts in the blind hope that it will be something different.
Pathetic.
So if this is all true... which i am not saying it's not... then why is it that every time someone posts "Hmm looks like a SRPG - WoW clone - Instanced game to me" 10 people rush to comment how it's not and how we have no information that it really is so?
Bioware: "We like fat people"
*Bioware walks on stage with a fat man*
Doubter: "Geez... that guy is fat"
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
Just go read one of the interviews from E3 (linked many many times) and tell me what conclusions you draw from it.
I've read them. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say it's an MMO focused on storytelling. It has the standard MMO features, that's what makes it an MMO. That does not make it a WoW clone.
Precisely, some people need to read the section below which is contained in the link in my sig:
"WoW Clone
By far the most over and misused word in the MMO dictionary. In theory, the term WoW Clone refers to a game that so closely resembles World of Warcraft that it could have been grown from its very DNA.
In recent years, this term has been applied to almost every single P2P MMO either in production or released. It is applied to any game, it seems, that makes use of: an RPG style user interface, quests, level progression, guilds, instances, zones, swords, the list goes on.
While World of Warcraft does indeed make use of all of the above mentioned elements and more, the fact of the matter is that they were not the first, and they will not be the last. Many of the elements that are pointed to as evidence of a WoW clone are rather fingerprints of the genre as a whole. Quests, for example, have been an integral part of not just MMOs, but of RPGs from the very beginning, the same goes for concepts like level progression, guilds and the fantasy setting. While Blizzard may have created a formula that improved the way that these elements are presented, World of Warcraft remains just a stepping stone in the overall evolution of the genre.
It is certainly easy to understand a desire, amongst players and developers alike, for change and innovation within the genre, but labeling each and every new MMO release a WoW Clone in the way that some people have been serves to do nothing but reduce the entire genre (both pre and post World of Warcraft) to a single game.
It isn’t necessarily a departure from the conventions of the genre that people are looking for so much as it is a bit of obvious innovation."
It's also an extremely big budget development so expect an abundance of content and polish. When it comes to themepark games there is a direct correlation between the budget, length of development, and the quality of the final product.
Isn't it unfair to critisize this game for not being something that it was never trying to be? This game was never trying to be Ultima Online or SWG. I can understand you being dissapointed back when there was little to no information on the game, but now it seems like everyone knows what type of game this will be, and yet many still persist in acting like they've been lied to or betrayed in some manner. I don't have a problem with people criticizing the game, but I just don't understand the expectations you guys dreamed up. What did the developers say that made you think that this would be another class-less utopia? What did the initial interviews and videos do to make you expect the sweeping revitalization of the sandbox model?
I can answer that for you. Nothing.
Well said.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Personally, I think discussion is harmless. This project has its supporters and critics, some more or less rational than others. It doesn't hurt anyone to let everyone be heard.
Exactly. There isn't a ridiculous criticism. Peoples want different things from this mmo. Of course the game will not satisfy anyone but giving your opinion doesn't really harm the game. I doubt anyone would want for this game to fail or any other game for that matter. The problem is that fanbois, who are exited see the criticism as an attack to their dear game.
Exactly +1
People want STO to fail so that the IP can be available for a "good" company to make a "good" MMO. I wouldn't be so quick to say that we're all benevolent little bunnies who don't want games to fail, we just want them to have the features we want.
What if TOR failed so hard that they made a SWG2? Wouldn't half the posters on this site do a mega happy dance if that happened? So I wouldn't be surprised if they have more than a few ill feelings about TOR.
For the most part, though, you're right Edli. But saying "I want this new car to fly" when it has a myriad of other good features, but not flying, is kind of like what some people are doing to TOR. It was never meant to be SWG2, it was meant to be more of a themepark than a sandbox (but it should have some sandbox elements, like exploring and hopefully crafting/social tools), and story was going to be the emphasis from day one. We're lucky enough to take or leave what the developers offer us, so instead of demanding silly changes, we should look to other games that have more of what we want.
The graphics style (stylized realism, they call it?) won't change, but the quality will improve. Remember the game's not in beta, right? I see some people talking like 8 months is nothing now. Pfft. It's nothing when you're talking about core game mechanics, but it's plenty when you're talking about polish.
It's fine to offer opinions and to constructively criticize, but it benefits everyone if you know what you're talking about, what BioWare's vision is, and what is realistically going to happen.
Hey Zymurgeist... didn't you get horribly burned by POTBS to have learned part of the lesson by now? learning how to properly interpret Dev statements...
Or was that a different Zymurgeist on their forums i used to argue with?
So if this is all true... which i am not saying it's not... then why is it that every time someone posts "Hmm looks like a SRPG - WoW clone - Instanced game to me" 10 people rush to comment how it's not and how we have no information that it really is so?
Bioware: "We like fat people"
*Bioware walks on stage with a fat man*
Doubter: "Geez... that guy is fat"
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
Here's some questions for you:
Has Bioware said that they are making a "WoW Clone"? Nope.
Does the fact that a new MMO has quests, a functional UI, crafting, economy, PVE and PVP mean that its a "WoW Clone"? Nope.
Has Bioware said that they are making a Star Wars MMO that is focused largely on storylines and takes elements used in other games? Yes.
The point is, some are generalising about SWTOR to the point whereby their statements are grossly inaccurate, and the conclusions and assumptions they've made are based on very little fact.
So if this is all true... which i am not saying it's not... then why is it that every time someone posts "Hmm looks like a SRPG - WoW clone - Instanced game to me" 10 people rush to comment how it's not and how we have no information that it really is so?
Bioware: "We like fat people"
*Bioware walks on stage with a fat man*
Doubter: "Geez... that guy is fat"
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
Here's some questions for you:
Has Bioware said that they are making a "WoW Clone"? Nope.
Has Bioware said that they are making a Star Wars MMO that is focused largely on storylines and takes elements used in other games? Yes.
The point is, some are generalising about SWTOR to the point whereby their statements are grossly inaccurate.
Did you even read the post i was replying to?
Look you argued on some of my points on the open world thread as well and i can see that you really seem to do selective out of context arguing or simply lack basic comprehension.
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
It's more something like
Bioware: "We like fat people"
'Bioware walks on stage with a fat man and thin woman, saying, yes, we like fat people, but we also like thin people, there's room for both groups'
Doubter: "No, no, no, you said you liked fat people! And I see a fat man on stage! That means you only like fat people, no matter what you say and no matter that thin woman on stage!"
Fan facepalms, looking at the doubter wondering if the brain malfunction is contagious.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well I draw logical conclusions after every new info I see.
I used to call it WoW in space, then realized theres no space (E3) so now it's WoW with lightsabers.
So I changed my mind you see?
Allthough to be fair one of the Bioware dudes did say that there MAYBE will be some space in some way or another meaning I might switch back to calling it WoW in space, we'll see.
I'm also glad that Bioware FINALY came out and admited exactly what many of us were suspecting for months, WoW clone.
WoW kiddies are cheering now, good for them.
You know, I just have my doubts "WOW clone" or any variant of that term is really saying anything. Everyone has his own idea what defines WOW. Saying a game is like WOW or unlike WOW, is really saying little, so it is more misleading than clearing the matter.
People should describe actual features and then critizise them and not make comparision critique.
A rule about good writing is: never explain how something looks by making a comparision. If you have a city in your novel, don't say, "it looks like Paris". Describe the city itself. Same goes for critizsing. Don't say, the game is like WOW. It says nothing. Say, the game has feature XYZ, which works like this blah blah, and THEN say why you don't like it.
Saying a game is a clone of X, essentially says nothing at all.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
It's more something like
Bioware: "We like fat people"
'Bioware walks on stage with a fat man and thin woman, saying, yes, we like fat people, but we also like thin people, there's room for both groups'
Doubter: "No, no, no, you said you liked fat people! And I see a fat man on stage! That means you only like fat people, no matter what you say and no matter that thin woman on stage!"
Fan facepalms, looking at the doubter wondering if the brain malfunction is contagious.
ROFL.
A second Doubter would be saying: "I was expecting a whole group of nude fat people coming on stage including Queen Latipha, Rosie O'Donnell, Roseanne Barr and Kirsty Alley singing 'Moon River'. You lied to us Bioware, shame on you!!"
First Doubter: "Yeah!!! You're nothing but a bunch of Kate Moss and Kylie Minogue fans!!!"
Comments
Pretty much sums up my opinion... +1
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
Pff, buzzkill, let me go in 'outrageous, aggrieved fan' mode if I want to play, I'm waiting for the even more elaborate counter reply in which people are trying to convince me how wrong I am and how 'reality' really is. Iz fun.
Plus, on a sidenote, the poster really believes his arguments, he's a fan(boi) of another game/company that we won't mention here. So, onesided, biased arguments leading to even more fun.
... yes, I'm bored atm.
Oh, ontopic: yes, that's true.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well you can't blame peoples for having certain expectations. This forum is frequented by a lot of peoples, everyone of them wanting something different. I have my expectations as well. Open world? Why can't swtor be open world and how do you know it will not be. Why not world pvp. Why the cartoonish look.
We conjured up our expectations and still do because we don't know yet fully what this game is gonna be. Making assumptions and expecting certain features will not harm the game.
The op said (Isn't it unfair to critisize this game for not being something that it was never trying to be). How does he know what the game is gonna be and why does he thinks that certain things we expect will not be in the game. We don't know much about the game yet anyway so peoples will keep making assumptions.
I am sure this game will be interesting, but lets face a certain reality. They do not have to put very much into a game that has two names to sell it, Bioware fans and Star Wars. The name sells the game, rather than have a good game to sell itself. Personally that is the only reason I think Turbine survived, actually that was their intent.
The graphics are a bit too "toon" for my tastes, and unless you watch the newest animated star wars junk Lucas keeps pooping out, you probably wont like it either.
Anyways, I find there a lot more games to respect and worth paying attention to right now. At E3, Rift: Planes of T, impressed me the most.
SWTOR will probably appeal only to the die hard fans or the youths, but I cannot see it staying strong in light of the competition when it comes to a more mature target audience.
Just my 2cent, many of you will disagree.
Well I draw logical conclusions after every new info I see.
I used to call it WoW in space, then realized theres no space (E3) so now it's WoW with lightsabers.
So I changed my mind you see?
Allthough to be fair one of the Bioware dudes did say that there MAYBE will be some space in some way or another meaning I might switch back to calling it WoW in space, we'll see.
I'm also glad that Bioware FINALY came out and admited exactly what many of us were suspecting for months, WoW clone.
WoW kiddies are cheering now, good for them.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Where are the days when the first screenshot of Tor gpx was shown and nightmarish idea of copying wow crawl in the back of my head....I can see it like yesterday how people told me that the game will be soooo different because of BW, because its star wars...
The "I told you so" day is coming very soon
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them
When a developer say:
dev: That feature will be similar to WoW
Q: what about this one?
dev: WoW like.
Q: what about this one then?
dev: Wowish
etc etc...
Thats more then sufficient information for me.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
This is why people should read interviews more often. Back in 2005 when BioWare set up the Austin studio and announced they were working on an MMO they had interviews with the studio heads and it pretty much came out as "We're huge fans of WoW, its fantastic".
Then we heard about how they wanted to inject real story into their MMO, then SWTOR was announced, companions were announced and it being a sequel to the KOTOR series as well.
All of this leads to one conclusion, its a linear, story driven MMO with optional multiplayer features, yes an MMO, but not a sandbox, not a massive open world, not SWG v2...
Each time BioWare talk about SWTOR, they just confirm things they've hinted at for years, but everyone is so blind by their own desires they just can't see this, they ignore everything but the solid facts in the blind hope that it will be something different.
Pathetic.
Well, not exactly. To some people we're all just some Adam-clones or neanderthal-clones.
Nothing new, just bad copies and boring stuff
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's ironic that you critisise people for jumping to conclusions and therefore being blind to facts (or lack of them), and yet you show exactly the same traits yourself.
Linear MMO? Not a massive open world?
These are all assumptions, we have yet to see any evidence to confirm or deny what you claim.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Oh ffs do I have to link interviews again?
Just go read one of the interviews from E3 (linked many many times) and tell me what conclusions you draw from it.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Some people are not comfortable with the fact that something is different to something else. They feel compelled to use existing labels, regardless of the fact that the label itself is grossly inaccurate and doesn't in fact reflect the true nature of the item.
Bioware made approximations and generalisations during the interviews in order to give people a little more information about the product. Unfortunately that means that certain individuals on these forums are so obsessed with labelling the product as a "WoW Clone" regardless of how stupid that makes them sound.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The point is, DON'T draw any conclusions, take what you heard at face value. The information we got does not accurately depict the entire game. The videos where made to show off the dialogue options, a bit of combat, a bit of grouping and a bit of graphics. To draw conclusions about the whole game based on those interviews and videos is foolish.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
So if this is all true... which i am not saying it's not... then why is it that every time someone posts "Hmm looks like a SRPG - WoW clone - Instanced game to me" 10 people rush to comment how it's not and how we have no information that it really is so?
Bioware: "We like fat people"
*Bioware walks on stage with a fat man*
Doubter: "Geez... that guy is fat"
Fan: "He is not fat? you don't know it yet you haven't put him on the scales to weigh him. Stop hating and making assumptions"
Precisely, some people need to read the section below which is contained in the link in my sig:
"WoW Clone
By far the most over and misused word in the MMO dictionary. In theory, the term WoW Clone refers to a game that so closely resembles World of Warcraft that it could have been grown from its very DNA.
In recent years, this term has been applied to almost every single P2P MMO either in production or released. It is applied to any game, it seems, that makes use of: an RPG style user interface, quests, level progression, guilds, instances, zones, swords, the list goes on.
While World of Warcraft does indeed make use of all of the above mentioned elements and more, the fact of the matter is that they were not the first, and they will not be the last. Many of the elements that are pointed to as evidence of a WoW clone are rather fingerprints of the genre as a whole. Quests, for example, have been an integral part of not just MMOs, but of RPGs from the very beginning, the same goes for concepts like level progression, guilds and the fantasy setting. While Blizzard may have created a formula that improved the way that these elements are presented, World of Warcraft remains just a stepping stone in the overall evolution of the genre.
It is certainly easy to understand a desire, amongst players and developers alike, for change and innovation within the genre, but labeling each and every new MMO release a WoW Clone in the way that some people have been serves to do nothing but reduce the entire genre (both pre and post World of Warcraft) to a single game.
It isn’t necessarily a departure from the conventions of the genre that people are looking for so much as it is a bit of obvious innovation."
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
It's also an extremely big budget development so expect an abundance of content and polish. When it comes to themepark games there is a direct correlation between the budget, length of development, and the quality of the final product.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
People want STO to fail so that the IP can be available for a "good" company to make a "good" MMO. I wouldn't be so quick to say that we're all benevolent little bunnies who don't want games to fail, we just want them to have the features we want.
What if TOR failed so hard that they made a SWG2? Wouldn't half the posters on this site do a mega happy dance if that happened? So I wouldn't be surprised if they have more than a few ill feelings about TOR.
For the most part, though, you're right Edli. But saying "I want this new car to fly" when it has a myriad of other good features, but not flying, is kind of like what some people are doing to TOR. It was never meant to be SWG2, it was meant to be more of a themepark than a sandbox (but it should have some sandbox elements, like exploring and hopefully crafting/social tools), and story was going to be the emphasis from day one. We're lucky enough to take or leave what the developers offer us, so instead of demanding silly changes, we should look to other games that have more of what we want.
The graphics style (stylized realism, they call it?) won't change, but the quality will improve. Remember the game's not in beta, right? I see some people talking like 8 months is nothing now. Pfft. It's nothing when you're talking about core game mechanics, but it's plenty when you're talking about polish.
It's fine to offer opinions and to constructively criticize, but it benefits everyone if you know what you're talking about, what BioWare's vision is, and what is realistically going to happen.
Hey Zymurgeist... didn't you get horribly burned by POTBS to have learned part of the lesson by now? learning how to properly interpret Dev statements...
Or was that a different Zymurgeist on their forums i used to argue with?
Here's some questions for you:
Has Bioware said that they are making a "WoW Clone"? Nope.
Does the fact that a new MMO has quests, a functional UI, crafting, economy, PVE and PVP mean that its a "WoW Clone"? Nope.
Has Bioware said that they are making a Star Wars MMO that is focused largely on storylines and takes elements used in other games? Yes.
The point is, some are generalising about SWTOR to the point whereby their statements are grossly inaccurate, and the conclusions and assumptions they've made are based on very little fact.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The more i read, the more i see the more i know about SWTOR the less i expect.
Did you even read the post i was replying to?
Look you argued on some of my points on the open world thread as well and i can see that you really seem to do selective out of context arguing or simply lack basic comprehension.
It's more something like
Bioware: "We like fat people"
'Bioware walks on stage with a fat man and thin woman, saying, yes, we like fat people, but we also like thin people, there's room for both groups'
Doubter: "No, no, no, you said you liked fat people! And I see a fat man on stage! That means you only like fat people, no matter what you say and no matter that thin woman on stage!"
Fan facepalms, looking at the doubter wondering if the brain malfunction is contagious.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You know, I just have my doubts "WOW clone" or any variant of that term is really saying anything. Everyone has his own idea what defines WOW. Saying a game is like WOW or unlike WOW, is really saying little, so it is more misleading than clearing the matter.
People should describe actual features and then critizise them and not make comparision critique.
A rule about good writing is: never explain how something looks by making a comparision. If you have a city in your novel, don't say, "it looks like Paris". Describe the city itself. Same goes for critizsing. Don't say, the game is like WOW. It says nothing. Say, the game has feature XYZ, which works like this blah blah, and THEN say why you don't like it.
Saying a game is a clone of X, essentially says nothing at all.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
ROFL.
A second Doubter would be saying: "I was expecting a whole group of nude fat people coming on stage including Queen Latipha, Rosie O'Donnell, Roseanne Barr and Kirsty Alley singing 'Moon River'. You lied to us Bioware, shame on you!!"
First Doubter: "Yeah!!! You're nothing but a bunch of Kate Moss and Kylie Minogue fans!!!"
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's