I would say your best bet is Darkfall, the population recently just skyrocketed IMO, I can not going anywhere without finding PVP, and it sucks because my bank is full of loots, so I need to sit at my bank and clean it everytime I kill someone
/rant OFF
Fact is, People love PVP, EVE is the best game that fits PVP and PVE and Crafting in ONE, I wish Darkfall would be that, but like others said, PVP should involve consquences, especially in a FULL LOOT GAME like darkfall, not much consquences in Darkfall at the moment, but I am a vet and I do not kill newbs, and I know the MAIN Vet alliances do not.
The darkfall community matured so much from launch, and people who think it is still the worse, are the same idiots who troll and hate the game and yet to play it most likely(the childish retards I was talking about)!
Farming newbs? .... God the only new people right now are the trial and new subs and if you get extra pvp then you are a carebear who fears some real pvp and there for goes and farms newbs and gather all the leather armor ....
Matured? You just need to check forumfall. No thread without "scrub, QQ moar, go back to wow etc". I dont call it mature.
Yep PvP is going down the hill in theme parc MMOs, but not in Sandbox games. There you can have some PvP. The thrill, the adrenaline and the gratification for killing somebody who wanted to grief you and failed. My opinion is that PvP isnt viable in theme parc as it mostly end in rock, paper system.
I would say your best bet is Darkfall, the population recently just skyrocketed IMO, I can not going anywhere without finding PVP, and it sucks because my bank is full of loots, so I need to sit at my bank and clean it everytime I kill someone
/rant OFF
Fact is, People love PVP, EVE is the best game that fits PVP and PVE and Crafting in ONE, I wish Darkfall would be that, but like others said, PVP should involve consquences, especially in a FULL LOOT GAME like darkfall, not much consquences in Darkfall at the moment, but I am a vet and I do not kill newbs, and I know the MAIN Vet alliances do not.
The darkfall community matured so much from launch, and people who think it is still the worse, are the same idiots who troll and hate the game and yet to play it most likely(the childish retards I was talking about)!
. My opinion is that PvP isnt viable in theme parc as it mostly end in rock, paper system.
I can't be the only person to have played Dark Age of Camelot, right?
I would say your best bet is Darkfall, the population recently just skyrocketed IMO, I can not going anywhere without finding PVP, and it sucks because my bank is full of loots, so I need to sit at my bank and clean it everytime I kill someone
/rant OFF
Fact is, People love PVP, EVE is the best game that fits PVP and PVE and Crafting in ONE, I wish Darkfall would be that, but like others said, PVP should involve consquences, especially in a FULL LOOT GAME like darkfall, not much consquences in Darkfall at the moment, but I am a vet and I do not kill newbs, and I know the MAIN Vet alliances do not.
The darkfall community matured so much from launch, and people who think it is still the worse, are the same idiots who troll and hate the game and yet to play it most likely(the childish retards I was talking about)!
. My opinion is that PvP isnt viable in theme parc as it mostly end in rock, paper system.
I can't be the only person to have played Dark Age of Camelot, right?
Excluded DaOC as it offered uniq RvR Sry didnt meant to offend you.
I would say your best bet is Darkfall, the population recently just skyrocketed IMO, I can not going anywhere without finding PVP, and it sucks because my bank is full of loots, so I need to sit at my bank and clean it everytime I kill someone
/rant OFF
Fact is, People love PVP, EVE is the best game that fits PVP and PVE and Crafting in ONE, I wish Darkfall would be that, but like others said, PVP should involve consquences, especially in a FULL LOOT GAME like darkfall, not much consquences in Darkfall at the moment, but I am a vet and I do not kill newbs, and I know the MAIN Vet alliances do not.
The darkfall community matured so much from launch, and people who think it is still the worse, are the same idiots who troll and hate the game and yet to play it most likely(the childish retards I was talking about)!
. My opinion is that PvP isnt viable in theme parc as it mostly end in rock, paper system.
I can't be the only person to have played Dark Age of Camelot, right?
Excluded DaOC as it offered uniq RvR Sry didnt meant to offend you.
No problem. So many people ignore it in these debates. They think PvP has to be either FFA, or an instanced battleground system, and there can't be PvP without hurting PvE. Not the case!
DAOC was a different age. Wont work again, and frankly, did not work all that well for quite some time, and not for all players.
Modern Theme Park MMOs are about giving the player successes. Its about getting on, more loot, more exp. The concept of challenge, of possible defeat, of loss and of losing is generally limited to a few harder areas. The main body of a modern theme park MMO is a constant stream of rewards and success.
That is why so many people play these games today. Back before 2000, most games were relatively challenging, regardless of genre. However, most games also had an "easy" setting, or cheatcodes, and a few years back ID (makers of Quake, amongst others) published an interesting statistic: Most players play on the easy setting.
MMOs try to be inclusive of as many players as possible, thus they require the "easy" setting for much of its content.
So, what has that got to do with PvP, you ask? Simple: PvP is not "easy", because in PvP, for every win, there is a loss. Assuming averages, you win as often as you lose, and once people organize themselves, the primary player (solo, relatively casual, relatively unskilled) will not gain his success/reward events at the rate he is used to from PvE.
So, in order to not drive these people away, who are the majority of the playerbase anyhow, you ll have to come up with ways to provide success/reward almost regardless of skill, and drastically lessen the impact of a defeat, so nobody becomes frustrated by the lack of progress. And thus, modern PvP was born, of the necessity of entertaining a type of player who just has no wish to deal with setbacks, defeat and loss, because he is simply interested in that type of experience.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been) because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, always will be. PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
(not sure where my message dissapeared but here it is again!)
Yeah pvp has definetly gone downhill now that i am taking a break from pwning you all!
But honestly, naah they haven't gone downhill their a bit lacking in imagination,, poor in settings but not downhill. The people nowadays give old pvp dog like me a run for my money. Despite the gearfactor, abover all maters skill factor, many new dogs on the hill have tons of natural skill, which infact makes me feel a bit more competiting person aswell. However the poor choices, no ladder style pvp lists is something i hate. I might not be the best around nor the worst, but i'd like to see just how good i am! Anyway, I love pvp it's one of the best mmorpg factors ever, I am a roleplayer but I'm also one damn bloodhungry rper. What good is power if you can't hurt anybody's feelings or characters?
Edit: Somebody mentioned that pvp should have high penalites and so on forth, I don't mind having large penalties and high costs on dying. I'd still pvp, i'd still break people, I'd still kill the most favoured group of victims: Grievers. How I love smacking grievers with ten ton hammer when they pick people who can't fight against em. Like kicking somebody who just kicked a dog or a child. High pvp penalties on sandbox are heavens for grievers, whom usually ruins somebody's day and mood. But each for their own tastes.
If you are tired with the old systems perhaps suggest some company following settings:
When you die in pvp you lose money and xp despite if their in bank or on character, but you gain the money and exp the other lost when you kill him.
Game type 2-3 strikes: when you die for the 3rd time you stay dead till end of the pvp round, then people would really avoid dying.
Defence mode: Defenders are given best defence spots and their idea is to stop attackers. When defemders die attackers will gain ground, exp bonuses etc. Attackers would have far more lives and more people but worse spots.
Hell i can come up with dozern pvp improvement ideas, instead of just bitching what's wrong with the current pvp and those whiners usually people live without a single vision. I also think that most people who bitch about pvpers just simply lack skill and can't tolorate competition due their own lacks in mentality. In the end what pisses me off the most is people's bitching without having even a single piece of constructive comments to offer.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded (by running around each other in circles) , since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear. And making tons of macro's
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre Meridian 59-Ultima Online - Asheron's Call -> Dark Age of Camelot. All uphill improvements on eachother
, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been)Again, all the most popular pioneer MMOs had PvP, except EverQuest because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority. If we take a look at the number from back when, over half MMO subscribers were playing PvP games.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. DAoC only started losing subs when they made PvE the dominant thing in the game, and made it mandatory to complete the PvE content before doing PvP. Warhammer lost subs because they copied WoW more than DAoC Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. <cough> twitch based real time combat <cough> and its one of the few MMORPG releases in the last 5 years to be steadily growing. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
Sorry bud, you're clearly an ill informed jaded PvE player who never touched the majority of the games you criticize.
All you do is kill your opponent and grind for pvp gear. I don't see how pvp can ever have a long lasting appeal to the masses.
.... what? What PvP game did you play? I've never played a game like that.
This is the problem, so many of the idiots posting in this thread have never touched a PvP game, ever. Or they've played a PvE game with some half assed PvP content and think that's how it's supposed to work.
Asherons Call was the best PVP in the history of MMO games. and what made it the best was a few simple things.
There was NO CC in the game, there was NO Classes in the game. you could dodge magic and arrows, it was skill based and you could loot the other player after killing him/her. There was real penalty for dieing, not this carebear crap we have today.
there was NO rezzing people when they die, you had to run your ass back to the fight or back to loot your own body before sombody else does.
no instances, it was open world and there wasnt a single safe place on the whole map. not even in town were you safe from pvp.
but those days are over, now we have game after game copying each other with these stupid instanced pvp mini games and battlegrounds and other crap like that. now adays its all about safe pveing your way threw the game to get your leet gear so you can own in some mini game instance bullshit.
and the biggest problem i find with new games pvp is the fact that every single game has classes. there is no freaking way to balance pvp with classes im sorry but its just never going to happen.
and for the love of god, get rid of the CC in all pvp games. im sick and tired of being CCed in pvp games. people cry about being ganked because you just dont stand a chance if your CCed for 5 min getting beat on like a piñata.
In Asherons Call, if you were good you could fight and beat multiple people. that was skill, there was no i win because im " rooting you" get rid of that carebear bullshit.
pvp going down hill? it has hit rock bottom already.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
that's the truth. its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.
Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too.
Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent)
Show me an MMO with PvP and I will show you an MMO ripe with griefing, ganking, and any other negative gaming term you can think of. The fact of the matter is that in games where power is derived from time, in essence, there is an inherent inbalance to PvP. I am not saying there are not folks that like this, in fact there are many that love it - but it is still inherently flawed, exploitive, and problematic for most gamers even if there are some that like to take advantage of this inbalance to pad their own internet egos.
Originally posted by crockopoopoo
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PvE carebears and hardcore MMO jockies aside this is the crux of the matter. Real PvP takes place in games where fights are determined by player skill and not player level, gear, or guild/group numbers. Hardcore MMO PvPers delude themselves in to thinking that 80% of every encounter is determined not by what the players do during the encounter but by what they where, or had, before it even started.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been) because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, always will be. PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
And how is pve different? It requires skill to use things on right time, controll agro etc. Well pvp is about equally from skill as pve. Also when you look at the pvp, it's more about game system factor why pvp works like it does. In darkfall you got different system than most mmorpgs. It's a different system, problem is the fact that most systems are so damn pre-configured that skill matters far less than gear or build. All same factors applies to pve, except that monsters can't think and simple macros run them, basically they can do some special attack or 2, and they do them on specific timer/triger. Only bosses in most games have more complex macros that run them. In my opinnion building character should require skill, so players could screw up their builds. I'd love to see how well some people would do and how poorly many others would do. Still i'd claim that pvp takes more skill than pve. And this is coming from ex raidguild's boss.
So my point is that games are far too preconfigured, both pvp and pve. Still your simplicity is simply amazing! Just because there are more pvers doesn't make us pvpers non paying customers nor does it make us any less powerfull. Nor does it suffocate our voice or make us any less valuable. No pvp means that we just go to game with pvp. I just wonder how few of us you think there are?!?
Anyway, you have right to have own opinnion, i respect that. Just doesn't make me think you in any higher standards than i would off trashcan.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
that's the truth. its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.
Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too.
Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent)
Show me an MMO with PvP and I will show you an MMO ripe with griefing, ganking, and any other negative gaming term you can think of. The fact of the matter is that in games where power is derived from time, in essence, there is an inherent inbalance to PvP.
Dark Age of Camelot.
Go, try.
As for imbalances, all characters eventually hit the level cap, and have similar gear. It comes down to how they specialize their character, and how well they play the role they set for themselves with that specialization.
Also, name me a PvE MMO, and I'll show you an MMO ripe with ninja looting, griefing, kill stealing, ect ect.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been) because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, always will be. PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
And how is pve different? It requires skill to use things on right time, controll agro etc. Well pvp is about equally from skill as pve.
It isn't that different, but you don't see so many PvE types running around like they are the second coming of Fatal1ty because they know the game and know how to work the game to acheive success.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been) because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, always will be. PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
And how is pve different? It requires skill to use things on right time, controll agro etc. Well pvp is about equally from skill as pve.
It isn't that different, but you don't see so many PvE types running around like they are the second coming of Fatal1ty because they know the game and know how to work the game to acheive success.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
that's the truth. its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.
Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too.
Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent)
Show me an MMO with PvP and I will show you an MMO ripe with griefing, ganking, and any other negative gaming term you can think of. The fact of the matter is that in games where power is derived from time, in essence, there is an inherent inbalance to PvP.
Dark Age of Camelot.
Go, try.
As for imbalances, all characters eventually hit the level cap, and have similar gear. It comes down to how they specialize their character, and how well they play the role they set for themselves with that specialization.
Also, name me a PvE MMO, and I'll show you an MMO ripe with ninja looting, griefing, kill stealing, ect ect.
Didn't say some are not better than others, I said it isn't a matter of skill the way hardcore PvPers make it out to be. Knowledge and skill are two different things. MMO success, PvP or PvE, requires knowledge while FPS games require actual skill. More power to those who do great at either, or both - but it gets old hearing some high level, geared up, group/guild supported ePeen type hardcore MMO PvP type running off at the mouth about his mad skillz when th etruth of the matter is that most of his wins are at least as much from his level, gear, and support (group/guild) as anything he did in the moment and even in the moment most of what he does is knowledge based and not skill based anyways.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
that's the truth. its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.
Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too.
Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent)
Show me an MMO with PvP and I will show you an MMO ripe with griefing, ganking, and any other negative gaming term you can think of. The fact of the matter is that in games where power is derived from time, in essence, there is an inherent inbalance to PvP.
Dark Age of Camelot.
Go, try.
As for imbalances, all characters eventually hit the level cap, and have similar gear. It comes down to how they specialize their character, and how well they play the role they set for themselves with that specialization.
Also, name me a PvE MMO, and I'll show you an MMO ripe with ninja looting, griefing, kill stealing, ect ect.
Didn't say some are not better than others, I said it isn't a matter of skill the way hardcore PvPers make it out to be. Knowledge and skill are two different things. MMO success, PvP or PvE, requires knowledge while FPS games require actual skill. More power to those who do great at either, or both - but it gets old hearing some high level, geared up, group/guild supported ePeen type hardcore MMO PvP type running off at the mouth about his mad skillz when th etruth of the matter is that most of his wins are at least as much from his level, gear, and support (group/guild) as anything he did in the moment and even in the moment most of what he does is knowledge based and not skill based anyways.
Again, PvE players do the exact same thing. This isn't about PvP players "bragging" this is about your comment that no PvP MMO exists without griefing and ganking, so I gave you one.
God I wish, Im just praying all the pvp idiots will eventually burn themselves out of the genre and screw off and stop ruining MMORPGs
You act as if the first MMO's weren't modelled around player versus player qualities. Thats what 99.9% of games are about (competitive gameplay) every player wants to be better and capable of competing against another opponent. Your describing an MMO that eliminates the PvP element as if it were "ruining" the MMORPG genre. Are you serious? MMO's without PvP would be utterly useless and boring. Lets run around holding hands like a bunch of hippies and collecting herbs all day. Yea that sounds like fun.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
All mmorpg's these days are flopping because developers are forgeting what is needed, wanted and or hated in mmorpg's. So if I had to say it, yes mmorpg's with pvp if you can call it that are going straight downhill. Now in mmorpg's you have nothing but mass exodus of whiny care bears that cry too much and it is destroying the mmorpg genre. I have absolutely no hope for future generation of gamers nor developers who are creating these fail flop mmorpgs just to cash in big and then flop out the buisness.
MMORPG's
Going
Down
Hill.
|
|
V
mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
Again, PvE players do the exact same thing. This isn't about PvP players "bragging" this is about your comment that no PvP MMO exists without griefing and ganking, so I gave you one.
I think you couldn't be more wrong. All MMOs with PvP have gnaking and griefing and the like - no exceptions. SOme may be far, far worse than others but the fact that not all characters are the same, the very core of an MMO, makes this an inevitable reality.
On the bragging, I think that is the big issue with PvPers in this context though. You reguarly see the PvP crowd belittling opponents or PvE types as all manner of lesser players (carebears, learn to play, etc) when the only real difference in many 'wins' is things above and beyond the individuals play in the moment, things such as gear, level, class issues, and group/guild makeup. So while I am not belittling the amount of game knowledge/skill it takes to be good at PvP verse what it takes to be good at PvE I am belittling the claim by so many PvPers that somehow what they do is really any harder or different or more hardcore - in the end all MMO combat is in large part determined by things outside of immediate actions by the player provided the player is not a complete moron. It isn't like it is in other genres, namely FPSs, where outcomes are largely determined on what you do in the moment.
Attribute-based pvp has always been flawed an always will be. It will continuously piss people off and fall into the realm of sheer annouance until the speed and power to crunch the numbers behind skill based physical combat is met.
All of human-based physical combat can be broken up into two main factors:
Offensive
&
Defensive
You're either doing one or the other while in combat and sometimes, a combination of the both.
All in all, it is binary so it's not all that hard to understand at a broad specturm...
Joint locks and throws (stuns, roots, knockbacks etc in the rpg world)
Evading (defense)
Tumbling, ducking, jumping, and dodges of all types
Deflecting (defense)
Parries and Blocks
Taking away direct physical control over any of those sub-factors will create imbalance from what I've learned over the years. The one thing I despise the most in a lot of these 3D Interactive RPGs is that the developers drag in too many elements from the tabletop world into the game they're creating and expect them to work in a virtual physical world. In games where there's a lot of physical combat, you need to allow the player to have direct physical control over the fundamentals (the sub-factors), otherwise imbalance will always be inevitable. One of those sub-factors that developers tend to mistakingly screw up time and time again is Evasion. Evasion is NOT something that relies on chance and should NEVER be treated as an attribute. It is a physical Manoeuvre that one executes to completely avoid an attack. It is based on skill and as such should be treated exactly the way block is treated within the real world.
I could go on and on, but to sum it all of this up...Equipment should NEVER define the skill level of a player. PERIOD.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
that's the truth. its just a fundamentally extremely flawed concept to begin with.
Fighting other players is a findamentally flawed concept in an RPG... ok then. Guess half the RPGs out there are just flat out wrong then. And those MMORPGs that invented this genre, guess they were wrong too.
Why do all you PvE snobs try to comment about PvP when its likely you've never even played more than one game with PvP in it, and it was probably a PvE game with PvP tacked on as an afterthought. (Only a PvE game would be gear based to that extent)
yes, the "inventors of the genre" were very flawed.
nice assumptions there. i play almost %100 PVP games. many of them designed ONLY for PVP with little or no care for single player at all.
being gear based AT ALL, is one of those fundamental flaws (in relation to PVP) that RPGs are built on. re-iteration: IN REGARDS to PVP multiplayer.
char progression makes alot more sense when applied to single player/co-op/PVE focused games.
Comments
Farming newbs? .... God the only new people right now are the trial and new subs and if you get extra pvp then you are a carebear who fears some real pvp and there for goes and farms newbs and gather all the leather armor ....
Matured? You just need to check forumfall. No thread without "scrub, QQ moar, go back to wow etc". I dont call it mature.
@Topic
Yep PvP is going down the hill in theme parc MMOs, but not in Sandbox games. There you can have some PvP. The thrill, the adrenaline and the gratification for killing somebody who wanted to grief you and failed. My opinion is that PvP isnt viable in theme parc as it mostly end in rock, paper system.
EvE doors
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I can't be the only person to have played Dark Age of Camelot, right?
Excluded DaOC as it offered uniq RvR
Sry didnt meant to offend you.
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No problem. So many people ignore it in these debates. They think PvP has to be either FFA, or an instanced battleground system, and there can't be PvP without hurting PvE. Not the case!
DAOC was a different age. Wont work again, and frankly, did not work all that well for quite some time, and not for all players.
Modern Theme Park MMOs are about giving the player successes. Its about getting on, more loot, more exp. The concept of challenge, of possible defeat, of loss and of losing is generally limited to a few harder areas. The main body of a modern theme park MMO is a constant stream of rewards and success.
That is why so many people play these games today. Back before 2000, most games were relatively challenging, regardless of genre. However, most games also had an "easy" setting, or cheatcodes, and a few years back ID (makers of Quake, amongst others) published an interesting statistic: Most players play on the easy setting.
MMOs try to be inclusive of as many players as possible, thus they require the "easy" setting for much of its content.
So, what has that got to do with PvP, you ask? Simple: PvP is not "easy", because in PvP, for every win, there is a loss. Assuming averages, you win as often as you lose, and once people organize themselves, the primary player (solo, relatively casual, relatively unskilled) will not gain his success/reward events at the rate he is used to from PvE.
So, in order to not drive these people away, who are the majority of the playerbase anyhow, you ll have to come up with ways to provide success/reward almost regardless of skill, and drastically lessen the impact of a defeat, so nobody becomes frustrated by the lack of progress. And thus, modern PvP was born, of the necessity of entertaining a type of player who just has no wish to deal with setbacks, defeat and loss, because he is simply interested in that type of experience.
MMORPG PVP is like the special olympics. You may win, but you still look retarded, since the real PVPers are playing Counterstrike and other games that don't revolve around gear and character progression over time.
PVPers love to talk about skill, while conveniently ignoring the fact that RPGs are designed to mitigate skill in the form of levels and gear.
PVP has never been 'uphill' in this genre, so it stands to reason that it is not going downhill. It is at the bottom of the priority list (where it has always been) because developers realize it's the playstyle of a small number of folks who are willfully ignoring 90% of the genre's conventions and complaining loudly about things that don't matter to the vast majority.
MMORPGs are about PVE, always have been, always will be. PVP is an afterthought. Don't believe me? Where are all the great PVP games? Shadowbane? Uh, yeah. UO? Whoops. WAR/DaoC? Riiiight. Darkfall? *cough* gear/skill grind *cough*. EVE? Well you got me there, it's a great PVP meta-game. Maybe go play it and stfu?
(not sure where my message dissapeared but here it is again!)
Yeah pvp has definetly gone downhill now that i am taking a break from pwning you all!
But honestly, naah they haven't gone downhill their a bit lacking in imagination,, poor in settings but not downhill. The people nowadays give old pvp dog like me a run for my money. Despite the gearfactor, abover all maters skill factor, many new dogs on the hill have tons of natural skill, which infact makes me feel a bit more competiting person aswell. However the poor choices, no ladder style pvp lists is something i hate. I might not be the best around nor the worst, but i'd like to see just how good i am! Anyway, I love pvp it's one of the best mmorpg factors ever, I am a roleplayer but I'm also one damn bloodhungry rper. What good is power if you can't hurt anybody's feelings or characters?
Edit: Somebody mentioned that pvp should have high penalites and so on forth, I don't mind having large penalties and high costs on dying. I'd still pvp, i'd still break people, I'd still kill the most favoured group of victims: Grievers. How I love smacking grievers with ten ton hammer when they pick people who can't fight against em. Like kicking somebody who just kicked a dog or a child. High pvp penalties on sandbox are heavens for grievers, whom usually ruins somebody's day and mood. But each for their own tastes.
If you are tired with the old systems perhaps suggest some company following settings:
When you die in pvp you lose money and xp despite if their in bank or on character, but you gain the money and exp the other lost when you kill him.
Game type 2-3 strikes: when you die for the 3rd time you stay dead till end of the pvp round, then people would really avoid dying.
Defence mode: Defenders are given best defence spots and their idea is to stop attackers. When defemders die attackers will gain ground, exp bonuses etc. Attackers would have far more lives and more people but worse spots.
Hell i can come up with dozern pvp improvement ideas, instead of just bitching what's wrong with the current pvp and those whiners usually people live without a single vision. I also think that most people who bitch about pvpers just simply lack skill and can't tolorate competition due their own lacks in mentality. In the end what pisses me off the most is people's bitching without having even a single piece of constructive comments to offer.
Peace out!
Kindest regards,
DKW
All you do is kill your opponent and grind for pvp gear. I don't see how pvp can ever have a long lasting appeal to the masses.
Sorry bud, you're clearly an ill informed jaded PvE player who never touched the majority of the games you criticize.
.... what? What PvP game did you play? I've never played a game like that.
This is the problem, so many of the idiots posting in this thread have never touched a PvP game, ever. Or they've played a PvE game with some half assed PvP content and think that's how it's supposed to work.
Asherons Call was the best PVP in the history of MMO games. and what made it the best was a few simple things.
There was NO CC in the game, there was NO Classes in the game. you could dodge magic and arrows, it was skill based and you could loot the other player after killing him/her. There was real penalty for dieing, not this carebear crap we have today.
there was NO rezzing people when they die, you had to run your ass back to the fight or back to loot your own body before sombody else does.
no instances, it was open world and there wasnt a single safe place on the whole map. not even in town were you safe from pvp.
but those days are over, now we have game after game copying each other with these stupid instanced pvp mini games and battlegrounds and other crap like that. now adays its all about safe pveing your way threw the game to get your leet gear so you can own in some mini game instance bullshit.
and the biggest problem i find with new games pvp is the fact that every single game has classes. there is no freaking way to balance pvp with classes im sorry but its just never going to happen.
and for the love of god, get rid of the CC in all pvp games. im sick and tired of being CCed in pvp games. people cry about being ganked because you just dont stand a chance if your CCed for 5 min getting beat on like a piñata.
In Asherons Call, if you were good you could fight and beat multiple people. that was skill, there was no i win because im " rooting you" get rid of that carebear bullshit.
pvp going down hill? it has hit rock bottom already.
Show me an MMO with PvP and I will show you an MMO ripe with griefing, ganking, and any other negative gaming term you can think of. The fact of the matter is that in games where power is derived from time, in essence, there is an inherent inbalance to PvP. I am not saying there are not folks that like this, in fact there are many that love it - but it is still inherently flawed, exploitive, and problematic for most gamers even if there are some that like to take advantage of this inbalance to pad their own internet egos.
PvE carebears and hardcore MMO jockies aside this is the crux of the matter. Real PvP takes place in games where fights are determined by player skill and not player level, gear, or guild/group numbers. Hardcore MMO PvPers delude themselves in to thinking that 80% of every encounter is determined not by what the players do during the encounter but by what they where, or had, before it even started.
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And how is pve different? It requires skill to use things on right time, controll agro etc. Well pvp is about equally from skill as pve. Also when you look at the pvp, it's more about game system factor why pvp works like it does. In darkfall you got different system than most mmorpgs. It's a different system, problem is the fact that most systems are so damn pre-configured that skill matters far less than gear or build. All same factors applies to pve, except that monsters can't think and simple macros run them, basically they can do some special attack or 2, and they do them on specific timer/triger. Only bosses in most games have more complex macros that run them. In my opinnion building character should require skill, so players could screw up their builds. I'd love to see how well some people would do and how poorly many others would do. Still i'd claim that pvp takes more skill than pve. And this is coming from ex raidguild's boss.
So my point is that games are far too preconfigured, both pvp and pve. Still your simplicity is simply amazing! Just because there are more pvers doesn't make us pvpers non paying customers nor does it make us any less powerfull. Nor does it suffocate our voice or make us any less valuable. No pvp means that we just go to game with pvp. I just wonder how few of us you think there are?!?
Anyway, you have right to have own opinnion, i respect that. Just doesn't make me think you in any higher standards than i would off trashcan.
Kindest regards,
DKW
Dark Age of Camelot.
Go, try.
As for imbalances, all characters eventually hit the level cap, and have similar gear. It comes down to how they specialize their character, and how well they play the role they set for themselves with that specialization.
Also, name me a PvE MMO, and I'll show you an MMO ripe with ninja looting, griefing, kill stealing, ect ect.
It isn't that different, but you don't see so many PvE types running around like they are the second coming of Fatal1ty because they know the game and know how to work the game to acheive success.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvIYRrgZ04
Didn't say some are not better than others, I said it isn't a matter of skill the way hardcore PvPers make it out to be. Knowledge and skill are two different things. MMO success, PvP or PvE, requires knowledge while FPS games require actual skill. More power to those who do great at either, or both - but it gets old hearing some high level, geared up, group/guild supported ePeen type hardcore MMO PvP type running off at the mouth about his mad skillz when th etruth of the matter is that most of his wins are at least as much from his level, gear, and support (group/guild) as anything he did in the moment and even in the moment most of what he does is knowledge based and not skill based anyways.
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Again, PvE players do the exact same thing. This isn't about PvP players "bragging" this is about your comment that no PvP MMO exists without griefing and ganking, so I gave you one.
You act as if the first MMO's weren't modelled around player versus player qualities. Thats what 99.9% of games are about (competitive gameplay) every player wants to be better and capable of competing against another opponent. Your describing an MMO that eliminates the PvP element as if it were "ruining" the MMORPG genre. Are you serious? MMO's without PvP would be utterly useless and boring. Lets run around holding hands like a bunch of hippies and collecting herbs all day. Yea that sounds like fun.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
All mmorpg's these days are flopping because developers are forgeting what is needed, wanted and or hated in mmorpg's. So if I had to say it, yes mmorpg's with pvp if you can call it that are going straight downhill. Now in mmorpg's you have nothing but mass exodus of whiny care bears that cry too much and it is destroying the mmorpg genre. I have absolutely no hope for future generation of gamers nor developers who are creating these fail flop mmorpgs just to cash in big and then flop out the buisness.
MMORPG's
Going
Down
Hill.
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mmorpg's flop faster then mcdonalds cheese burgers these days.
I think you couldn't be more wrong. All MMOs with PvP have gnaking and griefing and the like - no exceptions. SOme may be far, far worse than others but the fact that not all characters are the same, the very core of an MMO, makes this an inevitable reality.
On the bragging, I think that is the big issue with PvPers in this context though. You reguarly see the PvP crowd belittling opponents or PvE types as all manner of lesser players (carebears, learn to play, etc) when the only real difference in many 'wins' is things above and beyond the individuals play in the moment, things such as gear, level, class issues, and group/guild makeup. So while I am not belittling the amount of game knowledge/skill it takes to be good at PvP verse what it takes to be good at PvE I am belittling the claim by so many PvPers that somehow what they do is really any harder or different or more hardcore - in the end all MMO combat is in large part determined by things outside of immediate actions by the player provided the player is not a complete moron. It isn't like it is in other genres, namely FPSs, where outcomes are largely determined on what you do in the moment.
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Attribute-based pvp has always been flawed an always will be. It will continuously piss people off and fall into the realm of sheer annouance until the speed and power to crunch the numbers behind skill based physical combat is met.
All of human-based physical combat can be broken up into two main factors:
Offensive
&
Defensive
You're either doing one or the other while in combat and sometimes, a combination of the both.
All in all, it is binary so it's not all that hard to understand at a broad specturm...
Beyond that, it breaks down into 4 sub-factors:
Striking (offense)
Meleeing, punches, kicks, elbows, kneeing, ranged attacks, etc
Grappling (offense)
Joint locks and throws (stuns, roots, knockbacks etc in the rpg world)
Evading (defense)
Tumbling, ducking, jumping, and dodges of all types
Deflecting (defense)
Parries and Blocks
Taking away direct physical control over any of those sub-factors will create imbalance from what I've learned over the years. The one thing I despise the most in a lot of these 3D Interactive RPGs is that the developers drag in too many elements from the tabletop world into the game they're creating and expect them to work in a virtual physical world. In games where there's a lot of physical combat, you need to allow the player to have direct physical control over the fundamentals (the sub-factors), otherwise imbalance will always be inevitable. One of those sub-factors that developers tend to mistakingly screw up time and time again is Evasion. Evasion is NOT something that relies on chance and should NEVER be treated as an attribute. It is a physical Manoeuvre that one executes to completely avoid an attack. It is based on skill and as such should be treated exactly the way block is treated within the real world.
I could go on and on, but to sum it all of this up...Equipment should NEVER define the skill level of a player. PERIOD.
yes, the "inventors of the genre" were very flawed.
nice assumptions there. i play almost %100 PVP games. many of them designed ONLY for PVP with little or no care for single player at all.
being gear based AT ALL, is one of those fundamental flaws (in relation to PVP) that RPGs are built on. re-iteration: IN REGARDS to PVP multiplayer.
char progression makes alot more sense when applied to single player/co-op/PVE focused games.
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Corpus Callosum
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Terrible place to ask. This forum tends to be full of PvP haters. For whatever reason, they have hissy fits when PvP is mentioned.
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