what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
wow has the largest following because of this simple fact. if all you want to do is chat, you can. if all you want to do is dance, you can. you just want to sit in a chair in the tavern and read an (ingame) book, lol, you totally can. if you want to just stand in town and jump around for hours, you can. no limits. my 6 year old nephew had a character on wow, all he knew how to do was emote, jump and run.....he loved that game. he hates ffxi.
you can defend ffxi all you want, but the simple truth is that they should want what the players want.....freedom to do whatever they want. simple
Originally posted by PlanoMM what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
you can defend ffxi all you want, but the simple truth is that they should want what the players want.....freedom to do whatever they want. simple
Final Fantasy MMOs don't want to be like Wow. Not sure how much you know about the game but it's certainly not something they strive for. If they happened to get millions of subs a year I'm sure they'd be more than pleased. But they have said they don't want to sacrifice the core principles of the game philosphy just to make a quick buck. Half of the people arguing for jumping keep using this argument:
"Square Enix should add jumping because it will add subs and they'll make even MORE money."
Wrong thinking.
FF MMOs already give the player base what it wants: story, community and uniqueness. Fans of FF don't want care about making tons of money and then the game is logjammed and corrupted over time like Wow. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. I believe most FF fans would rather keep the game somewhat exclusive where it doesn't draw all the unsavory types from Barren's Chat and AION LFG channel.
You people keep trying to make a gaming version of a politically correct game that "everyone" can play because you think it's "fair".
Thank God there aren't any MMO laws to force them to do that, or we'd end up with crap like Warhammer Online.
what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
That's really just bending things to serve your point.
We all know WoW is huge for being the quintessential cherry-popper MMO, while doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs.
thank you for your reply, however, i wouldnt say that "doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs", because if that were true, then youd be able to jump and sit in ffxi, since it falls in that category. but maybe, SE should take a page out of blizzards playbook.
and as far as "bending things to serve your point". bend it anyway you want, wow is home to millions, while ffxi is dying and being replaced by a newer younger version of the same game (i am soooo going to get flamed for that one, lol)
what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
you can defend ffxi all you want, but the simple truth is that they should want what the players want.....freedom to do whatever they want. simple
Final Fantasy MMOs don't want to be like Wow. Not sure how much you know about the game but it's certainly not something they strive for. If they happened to get millions of subs a year I'm sure they'd be more than pleased. But they have said they don't want to sacrifice the core principles of the game philosphy just to make a quick buck. Half of the people arguing for jumping keep using this argument:
"Square Enix should add jumping because it will add subs and they'll make even MORE money."
Wrong thinking.
FF MMOs already give the player base what it wants: story, community and uniqueness. Fans of FF don't want care about making tons of money and then the game is logjammed and corrupted over time like Wow. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. I believe most FF fans would rather keep the game somewhat exclusive where it doesn't draw all the unsavory types from Barren's Chat and AION LFG channel.
You people keep trying to make a gaming version of a politically correct game that "everyone" can play because you think it's "fair".
Thank God there aren't any MMO laws to force them to do that, or we'd end up with crap like Warhammer Online.
thank you so much for your post, i agreed with a great many things you had to say, but i would like to point out that SE is a business. they definitely, definitely want very much to make money. they sooo very much want to emulate wows success, whether you believe that or not, doesnt matter, its true. thats like saying, i dont want to make as much money as this other guy who does the exact same thing i do, but better. i know that where i work, that would really bother me alot if i found out that a guy that came in after me, made more money than i do.
now you say that ff mmos dont want to be like wow, thats just a funny statement. i had no idea that mmos had feelings, lol. sorry for the jab, i couldnt resist. back on point, no the players of ffxi dont want to be like wow players. but to say that thats why they dont let you jump or sit ingame is kinda dumb. seriously, if i thought for a second that that was the reason that they didnt have jumping or sitting ingame, i would never have played the game to begin with, truth is, i did play the game for many, many years, enjoyed almost all of it. does jumping and sitting make or break a game.....no. that wasnt my argument.
Half of the people arguing for jumping keep using this argument: <-----also made me laugh.....what argument did the other half of the people arguing for jumping use, lol.
personally, i dont care one way or the other if they put jumping or sitting in the game, i dont even play anymore. but i do think from a business sense point of view, they should. enough people want it (pointless and stupid as it is, lol), that it should matter to SE.
as far as SE giving its playerbase what it wants, it obviously doesnt. why then do so many people quit ffxi and go to other games? i didnt quit for this reason, as i already pointed out, i loved the game. i quit because i found it to be an incredible time-sink that i just couldnt justify anymore, same as all the other mmos out now-a-days.
btw, "unsavory", lol, nice. i get what you were saying, i just think that its funny that you dont think ffxi has "unsavory" types. goldsellers, skywalkers, bots, no none of that.
i know that this post may come off sarcastic, thats only because i meant it to, lol. sorry i dont mean to offend though.
ps. i totally agree about the warhammer crap though
thank you for your reply, however, i wouldnt say that "doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs", because if that were true, then youd be able to jump and sit in ffxi, since it falls in that category.
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Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
There is no jumping, IMO due to reality. Do any of you jump down the street to work?
Didn't think so.
Well thanks a lot, now you screwed everything up for ages again. That argument is so easy to counter my dog could do it.
Le sigh.
This is funny. If mario can jump, so can a character in FFXIV. Just wasn't in the Crystal Engine... or was it? The engine for FFXIV is the same as FFXIII and in FFXIII yu JUMP in the AIR during battle. So yes, the capability is there. The decision, was not. I for one ENJOYED not seeing people jump everywhere in FFXI and will continue to do so in FFXIV.
You're welcome.
I'm not even sure it's the same engine in the first place...
...but jumping in FFXIII is simply an animation that occurs the same way every time you choose the ability that makes you jump. You have no control over where it moves, how high you go, or how long you stay up. It's like saying you can jump in FFVI because the characters are known to in battle animations. You can also animate something falling, it doesn't mean the game has physical gravity.
Also, nobody jumped in FFXI besides dragoons, and again, it was a battle-skill animation. You crazy.
It is the same engine. When Microsoft bogarded Squeenix to put FFXIII on the 360, square had to abandon the original idea for the "White Engine" to make a multiplatform set of tools dubbed Crystal tools. And if the animation is there, there's a way to keybind it. Not really that difficult. And considering things go up and down at set paces during battle, I would assume there are physics in the game as well. To make a game nowadays without physics is kinda retarded, especially a game with particle physics of the most advanced levels. Unless you're calling Squeenix retarded.
But as I said before, I'm all for the non jumping MMOs. FFXI was great and whether or not FFXIV has jumping, I'm sure it will be great also. And on goes to stupidest argument... IN THE WORLD!
There is no jumping, IMO due to reality. Do any of you jump down the street to work?
Didn't think so.
Well thanks a lot, now you screwed everything up for ages again. That argument is so easy to counter my dog could do it.
Le sigh.
This is funny. If mario can jump, so can a character in FFXIV. Just wasn't in the Crystal Engine... or was it? The engine for FFXIV is the same as FFXIII and in FFXIII yu JUMP in the AIR during battle. So yes, the capability is there. The decision, was not. I for one ENJOYED not seeing people jump everywhere in FFXI and will continue to do so in FFXIV.
You're welcome.
I'm not even sure it's the same engine in the first place...
...but jumping in FFXIII is simply an animation that occurs the same way every time you choose the ability that makes you jump. You have no control over where it moves, how high you go, or how long you stay up. It's like saying you can jump in FFVI because the characters are known to in battle animations. You can also animate something falling, it doesn't mean the game has physical gravity.
Also, nobody jumped in FFXI besides dragoons, and again, it was a battle-skill animation. You crazy.
It is the same engine. When Microsoft bogarded Squeenix to put FFXIII on the 360, square had to abandon the original idea for the "White Engine" to make a multiplatform set of tools dubbed Crystal tools. And if the animation is there, there's a way to keybind it. Not really that difficult. And considering things go up and down at set paces during battle, I would assume there are physics in the game as well. To make a game nowadays without physics is kinda retarded, especially a game with particle physics of the most advanced levels. Unless you're calling Squeenix retarded.
But as I said before, I'm all for the non jumping MMOs. FFXI was great and whether or not FFXIV has jumping, I'm sure it will be great also. And on goes to stupidest argument... IN THE WORLD! <-----lol, nice
I'll take your word for it on the engine, but just because "the animations are there" doesn't mean they have any physics to them. If you played SWG you'd know what an animated jump with no physical use looks like, it looks like you are jumping, but in reality you are not. They just lift the model up and back down during the animation, there's no way to actually jump on anything without having coded the ability to do so in. All you get without that is the visual.
FFXIII doesn't have physics in the way you are think either. When your character jumpkicks somethng during a scripted set of animations it touches down to a specific point, the contact is disguised with particle effects so you don't see the clipping, and then the enemy does an animation where it reels from the attack. Speed is a factor here too, if they slowed it down you'd see a lot of things that would draw away from the experience.
Late Edit;
As another example, I know there are places where it seems like you can jump ledges while roaming the environments, but what is really going on is just an animation tied to a special event. When you approach the ledge you get the option to press a key and then you hop it, there's no way to jump without that queue. What is really going on is that you are teleporting from one side to the other, and you have no control of the character during the animation of the jump across. If you turned on a collision render you'd see the ledge circled by walls (thusly why it's impossbile to fall in), and when you jump across it, the cylinder that represents your character pops to the other side instantly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I don't see why people are being so deeply offended by the lack of a feature in a game.
WoW doesn't have wings on its toons, clearly its lazy because it didn't impliment flying from the get go.
Eve is lazy because they don't have ship interiors.
You can make the claim any game is lazy because of any specific reason you choose, its called a design choice.
Companies use money to pay for time spent developing these design choices, they pick and choose how they want a world to work and where they want to spend their time and effort on. Look how Age of Conan did the shielding system, and yet most people couldn't care less about it, but some would demand all games after it use a similar system. Perhaps you are in love with Aion's movement bonus where you get a bonus depending on if you are moving in combat? Perhaps you think that should be in EVERY game and the game is a de-evolution if it doesn't have it in it.
The point is that they decided. You may or may not agree with their choice. However there was a reason for them making the choice they did, and if you like that reason or not does not mater.
It is a bit upsetting , there are no games with very responsive , position based, and fuild combat that do not have jump that i know of. Maybe there are if you know one list it. FF11 was not (not sayign it a bad game ragers, just its combat sytem was weak).
But really most of these post are simply about how one person thinks that the justification of possible bugs with jumping outweights what jumping adds to an experience of a game. Which is fine had it simply been an opinion and he had not continued to fail at using his person experience to expample why his opinion was not only that but also valid enough to support such an argument.
And then the other half of this theard were people (included a few post from myself attempting to reason with that person with an appeal for logic, we also failed.)
Does no jumpping ruin a game... no , but if you are hoping for the next best mmo its not a good sign in my opnion , just cuase i like everything (why shouldn't i im paying). And if you do want everything thats fine becuase your paying.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
That's really just bending things to serve your point.
We all know WoW is huge for being the quintessential cherry-popper MMO, while doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs.
thank you for your reply, however, i wouldnt say that "doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs", because if that were true, then youd be able to jump and sit in ffxi, since it falls in that category. but maybe, SE should take a page out of blizzards playbook.
Haven't seen a post yet to respond to this, but I just wanted to point out one thing...
You can sit in FFXI. Not sure why people are implying you can't... O.o
See? Sitting.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Wow, 52 pages. I guess jumping is a big deal for a lot of ppl out there.
It's at least 3 times bigger than the PvP thread too. Serious business.
You should see some of the "Der isn't female vershun of race X!?!??!?!?" threads on other forums though. The community clearly knows what is most important for the game's success. S-E should listen.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Wow, 52 pages. I guess jumping is a big deal for a lot of ppl out there.
It's at least 3 times bigger than the PvP thread too. Serious business.
You should see some of the "Der isn't female vershun of race X!?!??!?!?" threads on other forums though. The community clearly knows what is most important for the game's success. S-E should listen.
That exactly what I said. If its such a big deal that there is 53 pages, clearly you cant call yourself next-gen without it.
All arguments aside, 53 pages speaks for itself.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
It is a bit upsetting , there are no games with very responsive , position based, and fuild combat that do not have jump that i know of. Maybe there are if you know one list it. FF11 was not (not sayign it a bad game ragers, just its combat sytem was weak).
But really most of these post are simply about how one person thinks that the justification of possible bugs with jumping outweights what jumping adds to an experience of a game. Which is fine had it simply been an opinion and he had not continued to fail at using his person experience to expample why his opinion was not only that but also valid enough to support such an argument.
And then the other half of this theard were people (included a few post from myself attempting to reason with that person with an appeal for logic, we also failed.)
Does no jumpping ruin a game... no , but if you are hoping for the next best mmo its not a good sign in my opnion , just cuase i like everything (why shouldn't i im paying). And if you do want everything thats fine becuase your paying.
Okay... Though I'm responding specifically to you post, Jet, I'm posting this in a more general sense to everyone in this thread putting forth the various arguments - some rather far-fetched and unreasonable in my opinion - as to why FFXIV will at all suffer from no jumping.
What meaningful value does the ability to jump around bring to the table in a game that never requires it? That is, other than so "people can jump over boulders and fences", as one person described it. If the game isn't designed in such a way where jumping is at all beneficial, much less necessary, then there is no point in having it. It would be a waste to put resources into something that would ultimately serve no real purpose in the game simply because people "feel like it".
I can give a very good reason why it's good there's no jumping in the game... Immersion. Yep. No jumping helps immersion. Why? Because I know when I go into a shop, or into a tavern, or am running through a part of some town or city... I don't have to see players standing and, likely, jumping up and down on table-tops, fountains, counters and anything else they can... Giving it their best "Look At Me! Look At Me!" effort. That is an eyesore. That ruins immersion for me (and for many others from what I've read over time) and, quite bluntly, will not be missed - at all - in FFXIV.
I have no interest in having to deal with people hopping around like Peter Cottontail when I'm in a group going through some high level and very dangerous area where we can easily wiped. It's a distraction and it's potentially a danger to the group because guaranteed eventually Mr. Hop-A-Lot is going to miscalculate a landing and get the group into trouble.
And I will bet real world money that both those scenarios would happen - constantly. Why? Simple. Look no further than any other MMO with jumping.
Also, what precedent is there to show that a game "needs" jumping to be successful or even good?
Did Diablo II have jumping? No. Was it a "fail' game because it didn't? Absolutely not.
Does Guild Wars have jumping? No. Is it an unenjoyable or unsuccessful game because of it? No.
Similarly, in FFXI there is no jump button and the game does not suffer because *it's not required at any time by the gameplay*. It's done just fine, regardless.
To name some non-MMOs.. Does Dragon Age, The Witcher, any of the Silent Hill games or any of a number of other very successful games without jumping suffer at all from the lack of it? No.
Why? Because the design doesn't require it in any of those games. It is not necessary to the gameplay. It would be superfluous. Each one of those games has done either very well, or extremely well, despite not being able to "jump when you want to".
Point is, there is no precedent to show that a game is any less capable of being enjoyable or even very successful if it doesn't have a jump button. To the contrary, there are myriad examples - such as the above-listed games, and then some - that proves the exact opposite.
You, Jet, and a couple others have said how it's "a weak argument" to use exploiting terrain as a reason not to have it. However, I've yet to see one reason given that isn't entirely personal preference to prove why the game would be at all lacking without it that's any stronger.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. But in terms of the feasibility of a game being fun and doing well without the ability to hop around at will, there is simply too many examples proving that, no, it is not necessary to have a jump button, nor is it "lazy" not to implement it.
People want FFXIV to have a jump button simply because they want a jump button. There is no profound and meaningful reason for it, any more than there is any profound or meaningful reason for not wanting it.
It's a design decision SE made based on how they want their game to be played. Period. End of discussion.
If it bothers someone *so* much not being able to jump over boulders or fences or whatevever - in a game that otherwise never requires you to jump *at all* (outside of jump attacks during battle, etc) to play it - then all I can say is... Don't play it! That *is* an option!
Frankly, if "not being able to jump when I feel like it" in a game that never requires you to is a game breaker for someone who would otherwise want to play it... all I can say is, it seems there's definitely something to the "ADD" theory many people express about some MMO players.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It is a bit upsetting , there are no games with very responsive , position based, and fuild combat that do not have jump that i know of. Maybe there are if you know one list it. FF11 was not (not sayign it a bad game ragers, just its combat sytem was weak).
But really most of these post are simply about how one person thinks that the justification of possible bugs with jumping outweights what jumping adds to an experience of a game. Which is fine had it simply been an opinion and he had not continued to fail at using his person experience to expample why his opinion was not only that but also valid enough to support such an argument.
And then the other half of this theard were people (included a few post from myself attempting to reason with that person with an appeal for logic, we also failed.)
Does no jumpping ruin a game... no , but if you are hoping for the next best mmo its not a good sign in my opnion , just cuase i like everything (why shouldn't i im paying). And if you do want everything thats fine becuase your paying.
Okay... Though I'm responding specifically to you post, Jet, I'm posting this in a more general sense to everyone in this thread putting forth the various arguments - some rather far-fetched and unreasonable in my opinion - as to why FFXIV will at all suffer from no jumping.
I understand that this was generalized, so im just addition thoughts of mine.
...
Similarly, in FFXI there is no jump button and the game does not suffer because *it's not required at any time by the gameplay*. It's done just fine, regardless.
To name some non-MMOs.. Does Dragon Age, The Witcher, any of the Silent Hill games or any of a number of other very successful games without jumping suffer at all from the lack of it? No.
Why? Because the design doesn't require it in any of those games. It is not necessary to the gameplay. It would be superfluous. Each one of those games has done either very well, or extremely well, despite not being able to "jump when you want to".
Point is, there is no precedent to show that a game is any less capable of being enjoyable or even very successful if it doesn't have a jump button. To the contrary, there are myriad examples - such as the above-listed games, and then some - that proves the exact opposite.
All of which have weak combat systems, this isn't to say unenjoyable. But they are not skill based, 1/2 of them that u listed have pauses in which you queue a good deal fo your abilities. I person don't overly care if jump is in a game, but games with strong fluid combat and movement systems so far in my experience have jump becuase vertical movement is part or movement in general; and when the game is coded well there is often no issues.
You are comparing pc rpg , pauseable top down games with a totaly different genre in which the movement system and combat systems are vastly different. And the games you listed do not have " very responsive , position based, and fuild combat".
People want FFXIV to have a jump button simply because they want a jump button. There is no profound and meaningful reason for it, any more than there is any profound or meaningful reason for not wanting it.
In every mmo i have played with a jump option there has been use for it. If i wanted to taje a page from your book and list games of a totaly different genre i could list any fps, God of war , etc etc.
No matter how hard or much people want jumpign adds another dimention to the world they experience and how they effect it. And my general point is if you want a next gen mmo that going to best the best it can be more is better than less.
Frankly, if "not being able to jump when I feel like it" in a game that never requires you to is a game breaker for someone who would otherwise want to play it... all I can say is, it seems there's definitely something to the "ADD" theory many people express about some MMO players.
Weak arugment, but i get the thought jumping in itself doesn't make or break a game and i totally agree. I feel many peoples thought are what this decision reflects (it may mean nothing) but i bet combat is very stationary.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
It is a bit upsetting , there are no games with very responsive , position based, and fuild combat that do not have jump that i know of. Maybe there are if you know one list it. FF11 was not (not sayign it a bad game ragers, just its combat sytem was weak).
But really most of these post are simply about how one person thinks that the justification of possible bugs with jumping outweights what jumping adds to an experience of a game. Which is fine had it simply been an opinion and he had not continued to fail at using his person experience to expample why his opinion was not only that but also valid enough to support such an argument.
And then the other half of this theard were people (included a few post from myself attempting to reason with that person with an appeal for logic, we also failed.)
Does no jumpping ruin a game... no , but if you are hoping for the next best mmo its not a good sign in my opnion , just cuase i like everything (why shouldn't i im paying). And if you do want everything thats fine becuase your paying.
Okay... Though I'm responding specifically to you post, Jet, I'm posting this in a more general sense to everyone in this thread putting forth the various arguments - some rather far-fetched and unreasonable in my opinion - as to why FFXIV will at all suffer from no jumping.
What meaningful value does the ability to jump around bring to the table in a game that never requires it? That is, other than so "people can jump over boulders and fences", as one person described it. If the game isn't designed in such a way where jumping is at all beneficial, much less necessary, then there is no point in having it. It would be a waste to put resources into something that would ultimately serve no real purpose in the game simply because people "feel like it".
I can give a very good reason why it's good there's no jumping in the game... Immersion. Yep. No jumping helps immersion. Why? Because I know when I go into a shop, or into a tavern, or am running through a part of some town or city... I don't have to see players standing and, likely, jumping up and down on table-tops, fountains, counters and anything else they can... Giving it their best "Look At Me! Look At Me!" effort. That is an eyesore. That ruins immersion for me (and for many others from what I've read over time) and, quite bluntly, will not be missed - at all - in FFXIV.
I have no interest in having to deal with people hopping around like Peter Cottontail when I'm in a group going through some high level and very dangerous area where we can easily wiped. It's a distraction and it's potentially a danger to the group because guaranteed eventually Mr. Hop-A-Lot is going to miscalculate a landing and get the group into trouble.
And I will bet real world money that both those scenarios would happen - constantly. Why? Simple. Look no further than any other MMO with jumping.
Also, what precedent is there to show that a game "needs" jumping to be successful or even good?
Did Diablo II have jumping? No. Was it a "fail' game because it didn't? Absolutely not.
Does Guild Wars have jumping? No. Is it an unenjoyable or unsuccessful game because of it? No.
Similarly, in FFXI there is no jump button and the game does not suffer because *it's not required at any time by the gameplay*. It's done just fine, regardless.
To name some non-MMOs.. Does Dragon Age, The Witcher, any of the Silent Hill games or any of a number of other very successful games without jumping suffer at all from the lack of it? No.
Why? Because the design doesn't require it in any of those games. It is not necessary to the gameplay. It would be superfluous. Each one of those games has done either very well, or extremely well, despite not being able to "jump when you want to".
Point is, there is no precedent to show that a game is any less capable of being enjoyable or even very successful if it doesn't have a jump button. To the contrary, there are myriad examples - such as the above-listed games, and then some - that proves the exact opposite.
You, Jet, and a couple others have said how it's "a weak argument" to use exploiting terrain as a reason not to have it. However, I've yet to see one reason given that isn't entirely personal preference to prove why the game would be at all lacking without it that's any stronger.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. But in terms of the feasibility of a game being fun and doing well without the ability to hop around at will, there is simply too many examples proving that, no, it is not necessary to have a jump button, nor is it "lazy" not to implement it.
People want FFXIV to have a jump button simply because they want a jump button. There is no profound and meaningful reason for it, any more than there is any profound or meaningful reason for not wanting it.
It's a design decision SE made based on how they want their game to be played. Period. End of discussion.
If it bothers someone *so* much not being able to jump over boulders or fences or whatevever - in a game that otherwise never requires you to jump *at all* (outside of jump attacks during battle, etc) to play it - then all I can say is... Don't play it! That *is* an option!
Frankly, if "not being able to jump when I feel like it" in a game that never requires you to is a game breaker for someone who would otherwise want to play it... all I can say is, it seems there's definitely something to the "ADD" theory many people express about some MMO players.
It bothers me than fans of Final Fantasy XIV need to insult people who think that wether or not a game has a jump feature matters.
You even go so far as to insult peoples possible medical conditions that they have no control over.
The real issue here is how can you design a supposed "next gen mmo" without a "Z" axis?
And the next issue is how selfish you fan boys really are. In fact your happy it doesn't have a jump feature because then you might have to deal with real intelligent people playing the game other than you two dollar fan boy's.
To me I could care less about this immature game, what bothers me is to what extent you "fanboys" will go to defend this game, and insult your fellow members of the mmo community in order to preserve the pride of some foreign companies poor excuse for an attempt at making a next gen mmo. Where is the solidarity?
I think I have an idea as to what is really going on.
I worked with a 30 year old guy who played final fantasy XI. Alot can be said of the types of personalities that enjoy this game based on simple observations of this individual.
No social skills. In fact the guy is extremely sensitive, you cant even joke with him without him crying about it @30 nonetheless
Lost his virginity at 28 to a prostitute, like I said no social skills and terrified of women unless he was role playing at Final Fantasy.
Mediocre worker at best.
Whats funny is at the time a few of us were playing WOW together, and here we are at break and lunch talking mmo's and all he liked was final fantasy...a 30 year old fan boy.
This is why there are 53 + pages to this argument, because this is all that makes fan boys feel normal, this dumb game, without you have to face your inadequate realities.
This is why you would defend the lack of a jump feature as being positive to your last breath, because you wont have to socialize with regular gamers, who would in a heartbeat sense your awkwardness and call you out as it is.
This is fine with me, enjoy your simple little mmo in your own fanboy world, just dont think you have some right to insult peoples medical conditions.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
It bothers me than fans of Final Fantasy XIV need to insult people who think that wether or not a game has a jump feature matters.
You even go so far as to insult peoples possible medical conditions that they have no control over.
The real issue here is how can you design a supposed "next gen mmo" without a "Z" axis?
And the next issue is how selfish you fan boys really are. In fact your happy it doesn't have a jump feature because then you might have to deal with real intelligent people playing the game other than you two dollar fan boy's.
So it bothers you when 'fanboys' insult people like you, but then you go and do the exact same thing?
Oh the hypocrisy.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It bothers me than fans of Final Fantasy XIV need to insult people who think that wether or not a game has a jump feature matters.
You even go so far as to insult peoples possible medical conditions that they have no control over.
The real issue here is how can you design a supposed "next gen mmo" without a "Z" axis?
And the next issue is how selfish you fan boys really are. In fact your happy it doesn't have a jump feature because then you might have to deal with real intelligent people playing the game other than you two dollar fan boy's.
So it bothers you when 'fanboys' insult people like you, but then you go and do the exact same thing?
Your insults were said to degrade and ridicule, also they lacked validity.
What I said, was based on actual facts from my life, not assumptions. These were not insults, these were facts.
If what you say is 'a fact' (we're fanboys, in-fact we're selfish fanboys, two dollar fanboys even) and not just a baseless insult, you did poor job of convincing anyone of it.
What I'm seeing is someone looking down on a group of people who disagree with him. I'm sure your life is full of 'facts' where you're better than everyone else, haha
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Similarly, in FFXI there is no jump button and the game does not suffer because *it's not required at any time by the gameplay*. It's done just fine, regardless.
To name some non-MMOs.. Does Dragon Age, The Witcher, any of the Silent Hill games or any of a number of other very successful games without jumping suffer at all from the lack of it? No.
Why? Because the design doesn't require it in any of those games. It is not necessary to the gameplay. It would be superfluous. Each one of those games has done either very well, or extremely well, despite not being able to "jump when you want to".
Point is, there is no precedent to show that a game is any less capable of being enjoyable or even very successful if it doesn't have a jump button. To the contrary, there are myriad examples - such as the above-listed games, and then some - that proves the exact opposite.
All of which have weak combat systems, this isn't to say unenjoyable. But they are not skill based, 1/2 of them that u listed have pauses in which you queue a good deal fo your abilities. I person don't overly care if jump is in a game, but games with strong fluid combat and movement systems so far in my experience have jump becuase vertical movement is part or movement in general; and when the game is coded well there is often no issues.
You are comparing pc rpg , pauseable top down games with a totaly different genre in which the movement system and combat systems are vastly different. And the games you listed do not have " very responsive , position based, and fuild combat".
I'm comparing games that are successful - even highly successful - despite not having a jump button, despite genre. You're trying to introduce a variable that has no bearing at all. There is no rule stating "MMORPGs must have a jump function".
Regardless, my point stands. They didn't have jump buttons because the game wasn't designed in a way that would require it. The games were perfectly fine and highly successful in several ways. Similarly, FFXIV's design doesn't require jumping, and so it will not be "lacking" without it.
You can be perfectly tactful in a game without jumping. Have you even read on how positioning is going to play a role in FFXIV, and against multiple enemies, not just one? I'm sure players will have their hands quite full without the need to be jumping around.
People want FFXIV to have a jump button simply because they want a jump button. There is no profound and meaningful reason for it, any more than there is any profound or meaningful reason for not wanting it.
In every mmo i have played with a jump option there has been use for it. If i wanted to taje a page from your book and list games of a totaly different genre i could list any fps, God of war , etc etc.
And in every game you've played without a jump function, there hasn't been a use for it. That's exactly my point.
People are arguing for jumping in a game *that doesn't require it* simply because they want to be able to jump over stuff when they feel like, not because it would bring any benefit to the gameplay. Saying "but it allows for more strategy in battle" - only if the game is designed in such a way where jumping is A) Included and designed to be beneficial in battle. Again... FFXIV doesn't fit that mold. In other words, it's not necessary to the gameplay.
There are people are arguing that the game wouldn't do as well, or that it's "lazy" not to add it, despite the myriad other games out there - MMO and otherwise - that are hugely successful despite not having it. They are swimming completely up-stream in a losing battle, because the facts - the sales records of many games without any jumping at all - doesn't support their assertions.
No matter how hard or much people want jumpign adds another dimention to the world they experience and how they effect it. And my general point is if you want a next gen mmo that going to best the best it can be more is better than less.
The whole "next gen game" thing is a red herring. It's a meme created entirely by players looking for ways to give more weight to what is ultimately just their own opinion.
There's no rule that states a "next gen MMOs must have jumping".
First of all, there's nothing "next gen" about jumping in a game. So the statement is ridiculous in itself.
You could have used the same argument for the last generation of games, or the one before that... or the one before that... or before that even. Guaranteed people will still be saying it for the next generation of games, and the one after that. And it's just as vacuous an argument in every case. In every generation of games, there are some with jumping, and some without. And in every generation there's a mix of both that are highly successful regardless of which side they fall on.
It's a design decision. Nothing more, nothing less.
Frankly, if "not being able to jump when I feel like it" in a game that never requires you to is a game breaker for someone who would otherwise want to play it... all I can say is, it seems there's definitely something to the "ADD" theory many people express about some MMO players.
Weak arugment, but i get the thought jumping in itself doesn't make or break a game and i totally agree. I feel many peoples thought are what this decision reflects (it may mean nothing) but i bet combat is very stationary.
It really isn't a weak argument.
There are people saying they would never touch a game without jumping, no matter how good it is otherwise, even if it serves no purpose in the game. Not necessarily in this thread, but in plenty others. In my opinion, I find that to be incredibly short-sighted and, yes, gives some creedence to the idea that there are people who just want a jump button to keep themselves constantly entertained.... because it would serve little other purpose in the game.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wasn't insulting anyone. Do you see me directly insulting anyone with ADD?
No, you don't.
I was referring to the posts where people regard some others as having ADD in the figurative sense, because they need to be constantly stimulated - often including having to jump around constantly for absolutely no reason. There's not a boulder nor fence in sight, but they're jumping around like rabbits on Red-Bull.
Members of my own family have ADD and they wouldn't be insulted if that were said to them. They'd know exactly what I meant. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take personal outrage from someone on the internet over a purely referential statement too much to heart.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I remember when saga of ryzom was for short while free 2 play many (ex)wow players also try it and shouted in general chat in caps THIS GAME SUCKS I CANT JUMP, i saw this constantly realy sad:(
Do i need to say more about most of todays generation of gamers:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
It bothers me than fans of Final Fantasy XIV need to insult people who think that wether or not a game has a jump feature matters.
You even go so far as to insult peoples possible medical conditions that they have no control over.
The real issue here is how can you design a supposed "next gen mmo" without a "Z" axis?
And the next issue is how selfish you fan boys really are. In fact your happy it doesn't have a jump feature because then you might have to deal with real intelligent people playing the game other than you two dollar fan boy's.
So it bothers you when 'fanboys' insult people like you, but then you go and do the exact same thing?
Oh the hypocrisy.
Now that's the proper use of the word! I don't see why you hate filled posters can't just move on and just tell yourselves you won't play the game. I'm not even a fanboy but even I can see the vileness thrown at them because of a stupid argument...and what argument?! Not putting a jump feature?!
Come on, how does it actually affect those of you that won't even touch FFXIV or even those of you who 'might' have tried?
It was explained by the devs, and supported by many here, and still you go on? I didn't take sides but now I feel like maybe the ones 'defending' the no jumping feature might be justified in doing so. Let it go.
Comments
what makes wow more popular than most mmos, especially ffxi and the like, is the options to do completely pointless things as much as you want.
wow has the largest following because of this simple fact. if all you want to do is chat, you can. if all you want to do is dance, you can. you just want to sit in a chair in the tavern and read an (ingame) book, lol, you totally can. if you want to just stand in town and jump around for hours, you can. no limits. my 6 year old nephew had a character on wow, all he knew how to do was emote, jump and run.....he loved that game. he hates ffxi.
you can defend ffxi all you want, but the simple truth is that they should want what the players want.....freedom to do whatever they want. simple
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That's really just bending things to serve your point.
We all know WoW is huge for being the quintessential cherry-popper MMO, while doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Final Fantasy MMOs don't want to be like Wow. Not sure how much you know about the game but it's certainly not something they strive for. If they happened to get millions of subs a year I'm sure they'd be more than pleased. But they have said they don't want to sacrifice the core principles of the game philosphy just to make a quick buck. Half of the people arguing for jumping keep using this argument:
"Square Enix should add jumping because it will add subs and they'll make even MORE money."
Wrong thinking.
FF MMOs already give the player base what it wants: story, community and uniqueness. Fans of FF don't want care about making tons of money and then the game is logjammed and corrupted over time like Wow. In fact, I'd argue the opposite. I believe most FF fans would rather keep the game somewhat exclusive where it doesn't draw all the unsavory types from Barren's Chat and AION LFG channel.
You people keep trying to make a gaming version of a politically correct game that "everyone" can play because you think it's "fair".
Thank God there aren't any MMO laws to force them to do that, or we'd end up with crap like Warhammer Online.
"TO MICHAEL!"
thank you for your reply, however, i wouldnt say that "doing completely pointless stuff is a hallmark of all MMOs", because if that were true, then youd be able to jump and sit in ffxi, since it falls in that category. but maybe, SE should take a page out of blizzards playbook.
and as far as "bending things to serve your point". bend it anyway you want, wow is home to millions, while ffxi is dying and being replaced by a newer younger version of the same game (i am soooo going to get flamed for that one, lol)
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Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It is the same engine. When Microsoft bogarded Squeenix to put FFXIII on the 360, square had to abandon the original idea for the "White Engine" to make a multiplatform set of tools dubbed Crystal tools. And if the animation is there, there's a way to keybind it. Not really that difficult. And considering things go up and down at set paces during battle, I would assume there are physics in the game as well. To make a game nowadays without physics is kinda retarded, especially a game with particle physics of the most advanced levels. Unless you're calling Squeenix retarded.
But as I said before, I'm all for the non jumping MMOs. FFXI was great and whether or not FFXIV has jumping, I'm sure it will be great also. And on goes to stupidest argument... IN THE WORLD!
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I'll take your word for it on the engine, but just because "the animations are there" doesn't mean they have any physics to them. If you played SWG you'd know what an animated jump with no physical use looks like, it looks like you are jumping, but in reality you are not. They just lift the model up and back down during the animation, there's no way to actually jump on anything without having coded the ability to do so in. All you get without that is the visual.
FFXIII doesn't have physics in the way you are think either. When your character jumpkicks somethng during a scripted set of animations it touches down to a specific point, the contact is disguised with particle effects so you don't see the clipping, and then the enemy does an animation where it reels from the attack. Speed is a factor here too, if they slowed it down you'd see a lot of things that would draw away from the experience.
Late Edit;
As another example, I know there are places where it seems like you can jump ledges while roaming the environments, but what is really going on is just an animation tied to a special event. When you approach the ledge you get the option to press a key and then you hop it, there's no way to jump without that queue. What is really going on is that you are teleporting from one side to the other, and you have no control of the character during the animation of the jump across. If you turned on a collision render you'd see the ledge circled by walls (thusly why it's impossbile to fall in), and when you jump across it, the cylinder that represents your character pops to the other side instantly.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
It is a bit upsetting , there are no games with very responsive , position based, and fuild combat that do not have jump that i know of. Maybe there are if you know one list it. FF11 was not (not sayign it a bad game ragers, just its combat sytem was weak).
But really most of these post are simply about how one person thinks that the justification of possible bugs with jumping outweights what jumping adds to an experience of a game. Which is fine had it simply been an opinion and he had not continued to fail at using his person experience to expample why his opinion was not only that but also valid enough to support such an argument.
And then the other half of this theard were people (included a few post from myself attempting to reason with that person with an appeal for logic, we also failed.)
Does no jumpping ruin a game... no , but if you are hoping for the next best mmo its not a good sign in my opnion , just cuase i like everything (why shouldn't i im paying). And if you do want everything thats fine becuase your paying.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Haven't seen a post yet to respond to this, but I just wanted to point out one thing...
You can sit in FFXI. Not sure why people are implying you can't... O.o
See? Sitting.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Wow, 52 pages. I guess jumping is a big deal for a lot of ppl out there.
"Some people feel the rain. Others just get wet." -Bob Marley
I'm probably one of those people who just get wet.
It's at least 3 times bigger than the PvP thread too. Serious business.
You should see some of the "Der isn't female vershun of race X!?!??!?!?" threads on other forums though. The community clearly knows what is most important for the game's success. S-E should listen.
That exactly what I said. If its such a big deal that there is 53 pages, clearly you cant call yourself next-gen without it.
All arguments aside, 53 pages speaks for itself.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
Okay... Though I'm responding specifically to you post, Jet, I'm posting this in a more general sense to everyone in this thread putting forth the various arguments - some rather far-fetched and unreasonable in my opinion - as to why FFXIV will at all suffer from no jumping.
What meaningful value does the ability to jump around bring to the table in a game that never requires it? That is, other than so "people can jump over boulders and fences", as one person described it. If the game isn't designed in such a way where jumping is at all beneficial, much less necessary, then there is no point in having it. It would be a waste to put resources into something that would ultimately serve no real purpose in the game simply because people "feel like it".
I can give a very good reason why it's good there's no jumping in the game... Immersion. Yep. No jumping helps immersion. Why? Because I know when I go into a shop, or into a tavern, or am running through a part of some town or city... I don't have to see players standing and, likely, jumping up and down on table-tops, fountains, counters and anything else they can... Giving it their best "Look At Me! Look At Me!" effort. That is an eyesore. That ruins immersion for me (and for many others from what I've read over time) and, quite bluntly, will not be missed - at all - in FFXIV.
I have no interest in having to deal with people hopping around like Peter Cottontail when I'm in a group going through some high level and very dangerous area where we can easily wiped. It's a distraction and it's potentially a danger to the group because guaranteed eventually Mr. Hop-A-Lot is going to miscalculate a landing and get the group into trouble.
And I will bet real world money that both those scenarios would happen - constantly. Why? Simple. Look no further than any other MMO with jumping.
Also, what precedent is there to show that a game "needs" jumping to be successful or even good?
Did Diablo II have jumping? No. Was it a "fail' game because it didn't? Absolutely not.
Does Guild Wars have jumping? No. Is it an unenjoyable or unsuccessful game because of it? No.
Similarly, in FFXI there is no jump button and the game does not suffer because *it's not required at any time by the gameplay*. It's done just fine, regardless.
To name some non-MMOs.. Does Dragon Age, The Witcher, any of the Silent Hill games or any of a number of other very successful games without jumping suffer at all from the lack of it? No.
Why? Because the design doesn't require it in any of those games. It is not necessary to the gameplay. It would be superfluous. Each one of those games has done either very well, or extremely well, despite not being able to "jump when you want to".
Point is, there is no precedent to show that a game is any less capable of being enjoyable or even very successful if it doesn't have a jump button. To the contrary, there are myriad examples - such as the above-listed games, and then some - that proves the exact opposite.
You, Jet, and a couple others have said how it's "a weak argument" to use exploiting terrain as a reason not to have it. However, I've yet to see one reason given that isn't entirely personal preference to prove why the game would be at all lacking without it that's any stronger.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal preference. But in terms of the feasibility of a game being fun and doing well without the ability to hop around at will, there is simply too many examples proving that, no, it is not necessary to have a jump button, nor is it "lazy" not to implement it.
People want FFXIV to have a jump button simply because they want a jump button. There is no profound and meaningful reason for it, any more than there is any profound or meaningful reason for not wanting it.
It's a design decision SE made based on how they want their game to be played. Period. End of discussion.
If it bothers someone *so* much not being able to jump over boulders or fences or whatevever - in a game that otherwise never requires you to jump *at all* (outside of jump attacks during battle, etc) to play it - then all I can say is... Don't play it! That *is* an option!
Frankly, if "not being able to jump when I feel like it" in a game that never requires you to is a game breaker for someone who would otherwise want to play it... all I can say is, it seems there's definitely something to the "ADD" theory many people express about some MMO players.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
It bothers me than fans of Final Fantasy XIV need to insult people who think that wether or not a game has a jump feature matters.
You even go so far as to insult peoples possible medical conditions that they have no control over.
The real issue here is how can you design a supposed "next gen mmo" without a "Z" axis?
And the next issue is how selfish you fan boys really are. In fact your happy it doesn't have a jump feature because then you might have to deal with real intelligent people playing the game other than you two dollar fan boy's.
To me I could care less about this immature game, what bothers me is to what extent you "fanboys" will go to defend this game, and insult your fellow members of the mmo community in order to preserve the pride of some foreign companies poor excuse for an attempt at making a next gen mmo. Where is the solidarity?
I think I have an idea as to what is really going on.
I worked with a 30 year old guy who played final fantasy XI. Alot can be said of the types of personalities that enjoy this game based on simple observations of this individual.
No social skills. In fact the guy is extremely sensitive, you cant even joke with him without him crying about it @30 nonetheless
Lost his virginity at 28 to a prostitute, like I said no social skills and terrified of women unless he was role playing at Final Fantasy.
Mediocre worker at best.
Whats funny is at the time a few of us were playing WOW together, and here we are at break and lunch talking mmo's and all he liked was final fantasy...a 30 year old fan boy.
This is why there are 53 + pages to this argument, because this is all that makes fan boys feel normal, this dumb game, without you have to face your inadequate realities.
This is why you would defend the lack of a jump feature as being positive to your last breath, because you wont have to socialize with regular gamers, who would in a heartbeat sense your awkwardness and call you out as it is.
This is fine with me, enjoy your simple little mmo in your own fanboy world, just dont think you have some right to insult peoples medical conditions.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
So it bothers you when 'fanboys' insult people like you, but then you go and do the exact same thing?
Oh the hypocrisy.
Really, thats all you got?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insult
Your insults were said to degrade and ridicule, also they lacked validity.
What I said, was based on actual facts from my life, not assumptions. These were not insults, these were facts.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
Why is this always the consistent whine of the spaz monkies?
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
If what you say is 'a fact' (we're fanboys, in-fact we're selfish fanboys, two dollar fanboys even) and not just a baseless insult, you did poor job of convincing anyone of it.
What I'm seeing is someone looking down on a group of people who disagree with him. I'm sure your life is full of 'facts' where you're better than everyone else, haha
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I wasn't insulting anyone. Do you see me directly insulting anyone with ADD?
No, you don't.
I was referring to the posts where people regard some others as having ADD in the figurative sense, because they need to be constantly stimulated - often including having to jump around constantly for absolutely no reason. There's not a boulder nor fence in sight, but they're jumping around like rabbits on Red-Bull.
Members of my own family have ADD and they wouldn't be insulted if that were said to them. They'd know exactly what I meant. So, you'll have to excuse me if I don't take personal outrage from someone on the internet over a purely referential statement too much to heart.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I remember when saga of ryzom was for short while free 2 play many (ex)wow players also try it and shouted in general chat in caps THIS GAME SUCKS I CANT JUMP, i saw this constantly realy sad:(
Do i need to say more about most of todays generation of gamers:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Now that's the proper use of the word! I don't see why you hate filled posters can't just move on and just tell yourselves you won't play the game. I'm not even a fanboy but even I can see the vileness thrown at them because of a stupid argument...and what argument?! Not putting a jump feature?!
Come on, how does it actually affect those of you that won't even touch FFXIV or even those of you who 'might' have tried?
It was explained by the devs, and supported by many here, and still you go on? I didn't take sides but now I feel like maybe the ones 'defending' the no jumping feature might be justified in doing so. Let it go.