Originally posted by demonic87 Yep, Bioware are masters of story making! ME1=KOTOR1, looking for beacons or /coughstarmaps. ME2=Dragon Age, go around collecting buddies (races in dragon ages case), then banding together for some final fight. They rehash the same formula for everything but jade empire and kotor 2. Don't BS yourself.
True that the base formula is the same (just like every action movie in existence) the story is what makes it different. If you complain about same patterns, what do you want to say too all the other games out there.
The game's fighting style looks about on par with every other MMORPG out... they quickened the cooldowns so things go faster and are more intense to some extent, but they've never pretended to be reinventing the genre in this aspect. So I don't really know what you're expecting.
I assume that since you are on MMORPG.com you have played plenty of MMORPG's. Under this assumption, I also can predict that you've played more than enough of the genre's offerings to know that 90 percent of PVE combat is you standing in one place unless you are a dynamic ranged class who has to kite their enemies to death. However, the gameplay becomes a lot more rigorous and movement-based in PVP. It always does, because you can't rely on the enemy AI to just stand toe to toe with you. The player enemies move out of your line of sight, they try to get behind you for more damage, they have abilities in their own arsenal that rival your own instead of the NPC's simple lineup of abilities.
At some point, you lost the connection between KOTOR and SWTOR, thinking that the "TOR" part was a coincidence and it would take nothing away from it's predecessors... instead if would take from the Mass Effect "Viceral Combat" experience because it sold so many units?
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
I don't understand it. They show people standing there during the demos using their abilities. How is that different then any other MMO? They showed videos of pvp, and people were moving around non stop, while using abilities.
Are you saying, you wish to spam attacks with no global cooldown or anything? Do you want FPS like combat in this game?
It seems to me, after seeing the short pvp videos, that they mostly have people staying still just to show off what's going on. Do I expect to be able to move around while casting? No. But I expect once I start attacking, or shooting, I can move freely. And that was shown. How is that different then any other MMO themepark game? Outside of no auto attack that casters do not get most of the time.
For some inexplicable reason, certain individuals are expecting SWTOR to be vastly "innovative" and radically different in everything it does, and then complain when it isn't. I've yet to see where Bioware actually implied this. Yes, they "big up" their game just like any other MMO developer. They admitted that there are similarities between SWTOR and other MMO's. I personally don't have a problem with this. That doesn't mean that SWTOR will be exactly the same or a "clone" of WoW. However what it obviously is doing is taking the tried and tested concepts used in other games and refining them. Personally, I think that's the best way.
The way how certain individuals in these forums scrutinise every video down to the atomic level, is quite laughable. Especially considering how long there is to go until launch. No, I'm not implying that SWTOR at launch will be vastly different to what we're seeing now, but that doesn't mean that certain elements of the game won't get "tweaked" between now and then.
Certain people need to get a little perspective on all this. Yes parts of the game will seem a little "raw", no one is disputing that. But seriously, these people need to try to look at the bigger picture.
Its like people complaining about the "coverage" or "hiding" mechanic and how it mitigates SOME damage but doesn't completely block it. The actual amount of damage mitigation is irrelevant right now. The fact is that the hiding mechanic IS in the game, and it IS proving to work, in principle. Which is more than whats in other MMO's. The same goes for the combat. Yes, a player character stands in the open in those videos, but doesn't mean that they HAVE to in all combat situations? Not necessarily.
Bioware were NOT showing a launch-ready game at E3. They never implied otherwise. And yet, it appears that some people are thinking they were. What some people need to understand is that the combat is in the game and has been proven to be functioning. If Bioware felt that the game was ready for launch, they would launch it. But obviously they don't. So you have to take the E3 videos at face value and not read into them much.
Sadly it's not only the combat that looks like crap, it's also the char models, animations and pretty much everything else.
I can only find a single feature that I consider fun in this "MMO" and that's the cover system and that's only if it works like in ME2, which I doubt too.
There is no excuse for making such a mediocre "seen it done it for a decade, no fun at all anymore" crap of a game.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Sadly it's not only the combat that looks like crap, it's also the char models, animations and pretty much everything else.
I can only find a single feature that I consider fun in this "MMO" and that's the cover system and that's only if it works like in ME2, which I doubt too.
There is no excuse for making such a mediocre "seen it done it for a decade, no fun at all anymore" crap of a game.
Ok, we get it. You don't like the game. Weren't you the one saying you could smell schills then started advertising GW2? Wouldn't you be more well suited posting over in GW2 forums instead of coming in here harping your old broken record?
Sadly it's not only the combat that looks like crap, it's also the char models, animations and pretty much everything else.
I can only find a single feature that I consider fun in this "MMO" and that's the cover system and that's only if it works like in ME2, which I doubt too.
There is no excuse for making such a mediocre "seen it done it for a decade, no fun at all anymore" crap of a game.
Ok, we get it. You don't like the game. Weren't you the one saying you could smell schills then started advertising GW2? Wouldn't you be more well suited posting over in GW2 forums instead of coming in here harping your old broken record?
Sadly it's not only the combat that looks like crap, it's also the char models, animations and pretty much everything else.
I can only find a single feature that I consider fun in this "MMO" and that's the cover system and that's only if it works like in ME2, which I doubt too.
There is no excuse for making such a mediocre "seen it done it for a decade, no fun at all anymore" crap of a game.
Ok, we get it. You don't like the game. Weren't you the one saying you could smell schills then started advertising GW2? Wouldn't you be more well suited posting over in GW2 forums instead of coming in here harping your old broken record?
Why would he say such a thing?
Haha! In your sig. He gets to see that whenever you post. Talk about haunting.
It's kinda funny... every time I see some whiner complaining about this game, it just makes me feel better about it. Why? Because it just highlights the kind of person I will not have to deal with in-game.
Whine and cry all you want, but know this: We're going to have a blast without you. Go waste your time elsewhere.
Atleast these people have a opinion based on data and footage they have analysed, you are baseing teh fact that the game is gona be awsome and full of amazing people you want to play with based on what? a unfinished game that you havent played.....clever.
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
I'd have to disagree. 9 Months out from release and they've shown us a number of PvP videos, spoke about PvP numerous times, and have spoken in particular on portions of the game directed towards PvP. I don't think they are hiding their PvP content at all. If you were to use this same standard on anything else, you could say that the PvE is tacked on, or the Story is tacked on. We don't have a clear focus on lots of the main, core aspects of gameplay, but people tend to take anything we have seen as everything we will see.
Balancing classes in most MMOs is impossible... and most of the time, you can't balance classes correctly, or -- even if you do manage to get some form of balance, it gets shredded by the community.
All in all, I don't think that TOR will have great class balance, mainly because I don't think that all classes are supposed to be balanced. If you go through the synopsis of each class, most of them are straight DPS/Tank builds, each with their own set of stuns and heals. Some of course have more heals and crowd control abilities, but for the most part, the game seems factored around combat and damage dealing, with a lesser focus on support. Thats how I see it, even in the PvP videos I've seen, the action packed combat wasn't split into a big group dynamic.
Is that all there is? No. But I know what the classes are and what they're supposed to do. How this will transfer to a PvP setting on release has yet to be seen, but theres a very good chance the PvP will be very engaging.
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
I'd have to disagree. 9 Months out from release and they've shown us a number of PvP videos, spoke about PvP numerous times, and have spoken in particular on portions of the game directed towards PvP. I don't think they are hiding their PvP content at all. If you were to use this same standard on anything else, you could say that the PvE is tacked on, or the Story is tacked on. We don't have a clear focus on lots of the main, core aspects of gameplay, but people tend to take anything we have seen as everything we will see.
Balancing classes in most MMOs is impossible... and most of the time, you can't balance classes correctly, or -- even if you do manage to get some form of balance, it gets shredded by the community.
All in all, I don't think that TOR will have great class balance, mainly because I don't think that all classes are supposed to be balanced. If you go through the synopsis of each class, most of them are straight DPS/Tank builds, each with their own set of stuns and heals. Some of course have more heals and crowd control abilities, but for the most part, the game seems factored around combat and damage dealing, with a lesser focus on support. Thats how I see it, even in the PvP videos I've seen, the action packed combat wasn't split into a big group dynamic.
Is that all there is? No. But I know what the classes are and what they're supposed to do. How this will transfer to a PvP setting on release has yet to be seen, but theres a very good chance the PvP will be very engaging.
All of the begining part of your post is disregarded by the fact they themselves have said that they have only just started testing pvp hence why they can't describe any pvp features since it will all be based on this testing and are still deciding game types. You can't avoid this fact no amount of generic pvp footage will imply that they have lied.
On the point of balance not being possible gw1 prophecies pvp on release was and probably is still currently the most balanced mmo arena pvp. Gear had no factor and balanced builds were by far the most effective so team were not a factor the only real factor was the skill of the team. On the whole up until the release of factions which intrioduced 2 more professions it had a very balanced pvp for an mmo and remained that way even with the community looking for overpowered builds. So you can't say it isn't possible.
The fact is that is was possible because of my point, all the classes were designed specifically around the game types and fine tuned due through a lot of testing which is how any mmo that wants to have reasonable balanced pvp should do.
Anyway no you can't say that you could use my arguement to say story was tacked on because my argument hints directly otherwise. Story line choices affect light side and dark side points which affect the skills you acquire, the entire game was designed around the story. These things are intergral to the gameplay, the gameplay is built around these things not the pvp. The pvp is clearly built around the already established gameplay hence their current testing method and hence why I consider it to be tacked on.
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
I'd have to disagree. 9 Months out from release and they've shown us a number of PvP videos, spoke about PvP numerous times, and have spoken in particular on portions of the game directed towards PvP. I don't think they are hiding their PvP content at all. If you were to use this same standard on anything else, you could say that the PvE is tacked on, or the Story is tacked on. We don't have a clear focus on lots of the main, core aspects of gameplay, but people tend to take anything we have seen as everything we will see.
Balancing classes in most MMOs is impossible... and most of the time, you can't balance classes correctly, or -- even if you do manage to get some form of balance, it gets shredded by the community.
All in all, I don't think that TOR will have great class balance, mainly because I don't think that all classes are supposed to be balanced. If you go through the synopsis of each class, most of them are straight DPS/Tank builds, each with their own set of stuns and heals. Some of course have more heals and crowd control abilities, but for the most part, the game seems factored around combat and damage dealing, with a lesser focus on support. Thats how I see it, even in the PvP videos I've seen, the action packed combat wasn't split into a big group dynamic.
Is that all there is? No. But I know what the classes are and what they're supposed to do. How this will transfer to a PvP setting on release has yet to be seen, but theres a very good chance the PvP will be very engaging.
All of the begining part of your post is disregarded by the fact they themselves have said that they have only just started testing pvp hence why they can't describe any pvp features since it will all be based on this testing and are still deciding game types. You can't avoid this fact no amount of generic pvp footage will imply that they have lied.
On the point of balance not being possible gw1 prophecies pvp on release was and probably is still currently the most balanced mmo arena pvp. Gear had no factor and balanced builds were by far the most effective so team were not a factor the only real factor was the skill of the team. On the whole up until the release of factions which intrioduced 2 more professions it had a very balanced pvp for an mmo and remained that way even with the community looking for overpowered builds. So you can't say it isn't possible.
The fact is that is was possible because of my point, all the classes were designed specifically around the game types and fine tuned due through a lot of testing which is how any mmo that wants to have reasonable balanced pvp should do.
Anyway no you can't say that you could use my arguement to say story was tacked on because my argument hints directly otherwise. Story line choices affect light side and dark side points which affect the skills you acquire, the entire game was designed around the story. These things are intergral to the gameplay, the gameplay is built around these things not the pvp. The pvp is clearly built around the already established gameplay hence their current testing method and hence why I consider it to be tacked on.
Links on "only just started testing PvP" and where in that comment would that imply "only just tacked on PvP" and what part of "tacked on PvP" would even remotely denounce that PvP couldn't be polished in a year with all major systems in place, which they said they've already done. Not to mention if they are testing PvP now, that means its already been developed. Thats a fallacy.
Prophecies wasn't balanced, but more balanced than most. Its a 5v5 arena game, if you can't balance that, then you can't balance anything. Prophecies still had bug fixes related to imbalanced abilities.
From the beginning they've stated that their classes have been balanced around PvP, but does that mean each class will be "balanced" not really. It all depends on what you're balancing against, is it strictly 1 v 1, or is it a team balance? All that goes into balancing classes.
I'd have to see the quote you're hanging your whole stand on. Its already been said that there is limited player testing, if thats what they were referring to for PvP that would make sense, however, its already been shown in a video of players testing the PvP. Actual players, actually testing, the actual PvP. That video has been out for months as well, so to think that they are just tacking it on now is based on assumptions.
Why have they shown so much pve content but very little of the pvp content ?
Is it not ready. Is it lacking in some way that they are not ready to show it off. They hardly talk about this aspect of the game.
They need to show more of the pvp system to calm the masses of there fears IMO.
I get the impression that isn't one of their main focus points with this game. I'm not trying to bash the game or downplay it just from all I have seen I think the reason you're not seeing it discussed much is because when it is all said and done PvP will be in the game but certanly not to the level that those that enjoy that aspect will be real happy with.
I get the feeling it is going to be more arena based and done in scenario type situations. So in essence while it won't be an absolute afterthought like it is in some like LotR it won't be a major focus or selling point. More something you could enjoy in small increments but not a solid reason you would want to buy the game for.
Granted this game is still a long ways out so who knows. They could just be waiting until things are closer to launch and as with other things they are simply waiting until they are certain what they will incorporate before they go into detail about it.
No absolutes here but intentional or not that is the impression I have.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
I'd have to disagree. 9 Months out from release and they've shown us a number of PvP videos, spoke about PvP numerous times, and have spoken in particular on portions of the game directed towards PvP. I don't think they are hiding their PvP content at all. If you were to use this same standard on anything else, you could say that the PvE is tacked on, or the Story is tacked on. We don't have a clear focus on lots of the main, core aspects of gameplay, but people tend to take anything we have seen as everything we will see.
Balancing classes in most MMOs is impossible... and most of the time, you can't balance classes correctly, or -- even if you do manage to get some form of balance, it gets shredded by the community.
All in all, I don't think that TOR will have great class balance, mainly because I don't think that all classes are supposed to be balanced. If you go through the synopsis of each class, most of them are straight DPS/Tank builds, each with their own set of stuns and heals. Some of course have more heals and crowd control abilities, but for the most part, the game seems factored around combat and damage dealing, with a lesser focus on support. Thats how I see it, even in the PvP videos I've seen, the action packed combat wasn't split into a big group dynamic.
Is that all there is? No. But I know what the classes are and what they're supposed to do. How this will transfer to a PvP setting on release has yet to be seen, but theres a very good chance the PvP will be very engaging.
All of the begining part of your post is disregarded by the fact they themselves have said that they have only just started testing pvp hence why they can't describe any pvp features since it will all be based on this testing and are still deciding game types. You can't avoid this fact no amount of generic pvp footage will imply that they have lied.
On the point of balance not being possible gw1 prophecies pvp on release was and probably is still currently the most balanced mmo arena pvp. Gear had no factor and balanced builds were by far the most effective so team were not a factor the only real factor was the skill of the team. On the whole up until the release of factions which intrioduced 2 more professions it had a very balanced pvp for an mmo and remained that way even with the community looking for overpowered builds. So you can't say it isn't possible.
The fact is that is was possible because of my point, all the classes were designed specifically around the game types and fine tuned due through a lot of testing which is how any mmo that wants to have reasonable balanced pvp should do.
Anyway no you can't say that you could use my arguement to say story was tacked on because my argument hints directly otherwise. Story line choices affect light side and dark side points which affect the skills you acquire, the entire game was designed around the story. These things are intergral to the gameplay, the gameplay is built around these things not the pvp. The pvp is clearly built around the already established gameplay hence their current testing method and hence why I consider it to be tacked on.
Links on "only just started testing PvP" and where in that comment would that imply "only just tacked on PvP" and what part of "tacked on PvP" would even remotely denounce that PvP couldn't be polished in a year with all major systems in place, which they said they've already done. Not to mention if they are testing PvP now, that means its already been developed. Thats a fallacy.
Prophecies wasn't balanced, but more balanced than most. Its a 5v5 arena game, if you can't balance that, then you can't balance anything. Prophecies still had bug fixes related to imbalanced abilities.
From the beginning they've stated that their classes have been balanced around PvP, but does that mean each class will be "balanced" not really. It all depends on what you're balancing against, is it strictly 1 v 1, or is it a team balance? All that goes into balancing classes.
I'd have to see the quote you're hanging your whole stand on. Its already been said that there is limited player testing, if thats what they were referring to for PvP that would make sense, however, its already been shown in a video of players testing the PvP. Actual players, actually testing, the actual PvP. That video has been out for months as well, so to think that they are just tacking it on now is based on assumptions.
5v5? lol did you even play prophecies or better yet did you even play GvG? On the second part of your post your reinforcing my point you need to know what game types your pvp has to balance mechanics and class interaction around them it's not something which you create mechanics first then decide type of pvp suits it unless you want to land into some major balance issues.
On my source It's all in the Darth hater interview at e3
Check 5.54 onwards about them stating that there still deciding on pvp game types and also how they'll use player testing to help choose which game types to implement. Overall it's a very inciteful interview I'd recommend watching all of it.
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
Rose tinted glasses any one?
You might find it boring, but others don't.
Have you ever considered the fact that just because someone enjoys something, doesn't mean that they are blind or stupid? EQ1 is approximately 11 years old, care to tell their players that the gameplay is old and that they are looking through rose tinted glasses?
Don't like it? Don't play it.
Have an opinion? Fine. Just don't pass judgement on others just because their opinions differ to yours.
Rather than go on about how old something is, how about offering a suggestion for an alternative?
Or are you one of these people who twitter on about "innovation" but don't have a clue as to what you would actually find innovative?
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
Rose tinted glasses any one?
Not interested in Darkfall type game play, or Mortal Online, or anything copying those models. What else you got?
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
Rose tinted glasses any one?
YEA!!! Because everyone knows that WoW was the first game to ever use that kind of game play.
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
Rose tinted glasses any one?
YEA!!! Because everyone knows that WoW was the first game to ever use that kind of game play.
I say we go back to text based MUDS!!!!!
That would be interesting, then haters would complain about the Font of text as opposed to the 'graphics sucks' or the need to think instead of "there is no skill.'
I had my doubts about TOR but the videos i've seen latly have been getting me interested. Combat looks great imo. Light armor range have to duck and cover. Heavy armor range stand there and blast away (isnt the whole point of heavy armor to take a hit) Saw the trooper video and the way they explained the class makes sense on why he just stands in the open firing. Light saber fights(aka sword fights) are the best ive seen in the genre, no more will melee combat feel like a dance compitition, sometimes i feel like my character says you got served after i win in pvp.
Had my doubts about group combat but after seeing they use the Holy Trinity im actualy pro TOR now. Played a few games without the trinity and it turns into a dps game with no group mechanics (SWG comes to mind, liked the game but group combat sucked).
It's kinda funny... every time I see some whiner complaining about this game, it just makes me feel better about it. Why? Because it just highlights the kind of person I will not have to deal with in-game.
Whine and cry all you want, but know this: We're going to have a blast without you. Go waste your time elsewhere.
Are you implying that Tor will not have any of those peeps when the game launches ^^^
ah I don't think that's gonna happen. Not for any game bro.
but nice story.
It's also just like in Age of Conan. The Fanboi Patrol were flaming any negative posting (reasonable or not). Stuff like the player should just leave, they won't be missed.
Well, people did leave AoC. And their dev team sure misses them
The funny part is the TOR fans are already talking the same stuff BEFORE the game has released! Oh the comedy!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Have to agree with the OP. There is nonthing about this game that looks good at all. It is totally being sold on the names of Bioware and Star Wars.
Star Wars= Awesome IP with TONS of potential.
Bioware=Badass dev that has NEVER put out a bad game. Ever.
Sounds like a pretty safe bet.
Star Trek= Awesome IP with TONS of potential. Guess how that turned out.
Bioware= Good at writing books, bad at making compelling gameplay.
Sounds and looks like a very average MMO to me.
Bioware are bad at making compelling gameplay? Seriously? Wow, you're in a minority on that one my friend.
Well, I gotta agree with him. BW's latest games don't have the magic they used to have in the past. Story is always great, I won't argue with that, but the overall gameplay feels shallow and somehow very simple.
Comments
True that the base formula is the same (just like every action movie in existence) the story is what makes it different. If you complain about same patterns, what do you want to say too all the other games out there.
The game's fighting style looks about on par with every other MMORPG out... they quickened the cooldowns so things go faster and are more intense to some extent, but they've never pretended to be reinventing the genre in this aspect. So I don't really know what you're expecting.
I assume that since you are on MMORPG.com you have played plenty of MMORPG's. Under this assumption, I also can predict that you've played more than enough of the genre's offerings to know that 90 percent of PVE combat is you standing in one place unless you are a dynamic ranged class who has to kite their enemies to death. However, the gameplay becomes a lot more rigorous and movement-based in PVP. It always does, because you can't rely on the enemy AI to just stand toe to toe with you. The player enemies move out of your line of sight, they try to get behind you for more damage, they have abilities in their own arsenal that rival your own instead of the NPC's simple lineup of abilities.
At some point, you lost the connection between KOTOR and SWTOR, thinking that the "TOR" part was a coincidence and it would take nothing away from it's predecessors... instead if would take from the Mass Effect "Viceral Combat" experience because it sold so many units?
No offense, but that's just delerious.
Given that we're 9 months off the launch at least, its quite possible that more resources have been needed to implement PVE than PVP, therefore they only just recently started working on PVP. Hence they don't have much to show us yet about that particular element and hence all the "we aren't ready to talk about it yet" quotes.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
For some inexplicable reason, certain individuals are expecting SWTOR to be vastly "innovative" and radically different in everything it does, and then complain when it isn't. I've yet to see where Bioware actually implied this. Yes, they "big up" their game just like any other MMO developer. They admitted that there are similarities between SWTOR and other MMO's. I personally don't have a problem with this. That doesn't mean that SWTOR will be exactly the same or a "clone" of WoW. However what it obviously is doing is taking the tried and tested concepts used in other games and refining them. Personally, I think that's the best way.
The way how certain individuals in these forums scrutinise every video down to the atomic level, is quite laughable. Especially considering how long there is to go until launch. No, I'm not implying that SWTOR at launch will be vastly different to what we're seeing now, but that doesn't mean that certain elements of the game won't get "tweaked" between now and then.
Certain people need to get a little perspective on all this. Yes parts of the game will seem a little "raw", no one is disputing that. But seriously, these people need to try to look at the bigger picture.
Its like people complaining about the "coverage" or "hiding" mechanic and how it mitigates SOME damage but doesn't completely block it. The actual amount of damage mitigation is irrelevant right now. The fact is that the hiding mechanic IS in the game, and it IS proving to work, in principle. Which is more than whats in other MMO's. The same goes for the combat. Yes, a player character stands in the open in those videos, but doesn't mean that they HAVE to in all combat situations? Not necessarily.
Bioware were NOT showing a launch-ready game at E3. They never implied otherwise. And yet, it appears that some people are thinking they were. What some people need to understand is that the combat is in the game and has been proven to be functioning. If Bioware felt that the game was ready for launch, they would launch it. But obviously they don't. So you have to take the E3 videos at face value and not read into them much.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Sadly it's not only the combat that looks like crap, it's also the char models, animations and pretty much everything else.
I can only find a single feature that I consider fun in this "MMO" and that's the cover system and that's only if it works like in ME2, which I doubt too.
There is no excuse for making such a mediocre "seen it done it for a decade, no fun at all anymore" crap of a game.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Ok, we get it. You don't like the game. Weren't you the one saying you could smell schills then started advertising GW2? Wouldn't you be more well suited posting over in GW2 forums instead of coming in here harping your old broken record?
Why would he say such a thing?
Haha! In your sig. He gets to see that whenever you post. Talk about haunting.
Atleast these people have a opinion based on data and footage they have analysed, you are baseing teh fact that the game is gona be awsome and full of amazing people you want to play with based on what? a unfinished game that you havent played.....clever.
Let's be honest here any game that is still deciding it's pvp game types a year before release isn't going to be particularily balanced. Classes and combat etc should be at least partially designed with specific game types in mind for the pvp to be trully a a competitive game of skill or even just have a semblance of balance. It's pretty obvious they've made the game mostly with pve in mind and only recently started testing the PvP in depth.
This a VERY bad sign for pvp as this implies the pvp wasn't developed seriously in paralell with the PvE content. This also implies that any pvp in game will mostly be tacked on around whats already in game rather than having it influence during the development of the class which almost never works.
To show how bad this is for pvp i'll use the well known mmo Wow for reference. The pvp in that game was tacked on and was barely on any of the developers minds when they were producing the game and it really shows. That game's pvp is unbalanced I mean really really unbalanced. The sheer amount of inherently unbalanced mechanics makes sure that no amount of nerfing will solve those mechanics problems. These mechanics were designed to be cool from a PvE perspective but many just don't plain work in pvp and were never designed to work.
The result is a game with so many factors determining whether a team will win outside of skill that it's ridiculous. Class balance is a mess, gear dependency doesn't help either and the whole experience just isn't really focused on player or team skill.
At this moment with the infomation we've been given something similar seems very likely for SWTOR. Not that this is neccessarily a bad thing as PvE is generally a lot more popular than pvp and maybe Bioware were right not focus there effort much on pvp but if your seriously looking for serious balance team based pvp then swtor might not be for you. I could be wrong but i've seen this happen in many games and it seems pretty likely i'm right.
I'd have to disagree. 9 Months out from release and they've shown us a number of PvP videos, spoke about PvP numerous times, and have spoken in particular on portions of the game directed towards PvP. I don't think they are hiding their PvP content at all. If you were to use this same standard on anything else, you could say that the PvE is tacked on, or the Story is tacked on. We don't have a clear focus on lots of the main, core aspects of gameplay, but people tend to take anything we have seen as everything we will see.
Balancing classes in most MMOs is impossible... and most of the time, you can't balance classes correctly, or -- even if you do manage to get some form of balance, it gets shredded by the community.
All in all, I don't think that TOR will have great class balance, mainly because I don't think that all classes are supposed to be balanced. If you go through the synopsis of each class, most of them are straight DPS/Tank builds, each with their own set of stuns and heals. Some of course have more heals and crowd control abilities, but for the most part, the game seems factored around combat and damage dealing, with a lesser focus on support. Thats how I see it, even in the PvP videos I've seen, the action packed combat wasn't split into a big group dynamic.
Is that all there is? No. But I know what the classes are and what they're supposed to do. How this will transfer to a PvP setting on release has yet to be seen, but theres a very good chance the PvP will be very engaging.
All of the begining part of your post is disregarded by the fact they themselves have said that they have only just started testing pvp hence why they can't describe any pvp features since it will all be based on this testing and are still deciding game types. You can't avoid this fact no amount of generic pvp footage will imply that they have lied.
On the point of balance not being possible gw1 prophecies pvp on release was and probably is still currently the most balanced mmo arena pvp. Gear had no factor and balanced builds were by far the most effective so team were not a factor the only real factor was the skill of the team. On the whole up until the release of factions which intrioduced 2 more professions it had a very balanced pvp for an mmo and remained that way even with the community looking for overpowered builds. So you can't say it isn't possible.
The fact is that is was possible because of my point, all the classes were designed specifically around the game types and fine tuned due through a lot of testing which is how any mmo that wants to have reasonable balanced pvp should do.
Anyway no you can't say that you could use my arguement to say story was tacked on because my argument hints directly otherwise. Story line choices affect light side and dark side points which affect the skills you acquire, the entire game was designed around the story. These things are intergral to the gameplay, the gameplay is built around these things not the pvp. The pvp is clearly built around the already established gameplay hence their current testing method and hence why I consider it to be tacked on.
Links on "only just started testing PvP" and where in that comment would that imply "only just tacked on PvP" and what part of "tacked on PvP" would even remotely denounce that PvP couldn't be polished in a year with all major systems in place, which they said they've already done. Not to mention if they are testing PvP now, that means its already been developed. Thats a fallacy.
Prophecies wasn't balanced, but more balanced than most. Its a 5v5 arena game, if you can't balance that, then you can't balance anything. Prophecies still had bug fixes related to imbalanced abilities.
From the beginning they've stated that their classes have been balanced around PvP, but does that mean each class will be "balanced" not really. It all depends on what you're balancing against, is it strictly 1 v 1, or is it a team balance? All that goes into balancing classes.
I'd have to see the quote you're hanging your whole stand on. Its already been said that there is limited player testing, if thats what they were referring to for PvP that would make sense, however, its already been shown in a video of players testing the PvP. Actual players, actually testing, the actual PvP. That video has been out for months as well, so to think that they are just tacking it on now is based on assumptions.
5v5? lol did you even play prophecies or better yet did you even play GvG? On the second part of your post your reinforcing my point you need to know what game types your pvp has to balance mechanics and class interaction around them it's not something which you create mechanics first then decide type of pvp suits it unless you want to land into some major balance issues.
On my source It's all in the Darth hater interview at e3
http://darthhater.com/2010/06/16/e3-daniel-erickson-interview/
Check 5.54 onwards about them stating that there still deciding on pvp game types and also how they'll use player testing to help choose which game types to implement. Overall it's a very inciteful interview I'd recommend watching all of it.
So far this game is using WoW game play, come on guys this is 6 year plus old game play. If this was it 5 years ago it would be ok, but come on please!
There are other games coming out next year that will wipe the floor with this. Stop with the click/tab target and press a button combat, its OLD!!!! and very booooooooorrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnngggggg.
Rose tinted glasses any one?
You might find it boring, but others don't.
Have you ever considered the fact that just because someone enjoys something, doesn't mean that they are blind or stupid? EQ1 is approximately 11 years old, care to tell their players that the gameplay is old and that they are looking through rose tinted glasses?
Don't like it? Don't play it.
Have an opinion? Fine. Just don't pass judgement on others just because their opinions differ to yours.
Rather than go on about how old something is, how about offering a suggestion for an alternative?
Or are you one of these people who twitter on about "innovation" but don't have a clue as to what you would actually find innovative?
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Not interested in Darkfall type game play, or Mortal Online, or anything copying those models. What else you got?
YEA!!! Because everyone knows that WoW was the first game to ever use that kind of game play.
I say we go back to text based MUDS!!!!!
That would be interesting, then haters would complain about the Font of text as opposed to the 'graphics sucks' or the need to think instead of "there is no skill.'
I had my doubts about TOR but the videos i've seen latly have been getting me interested. Combat looks great imo. Light armor range have to duck and cover. Heavy armor range stand there and blast away (isnt the whole point of heavy armor to take a hit) Saw the trooper video and the way they explained the class makes sense on why he just stands in the open firing. Light saber fights(aka sword fights) are the best ive seen in the genre, no more will melee combat feel like a dance compitition, sometimes i feel like my character says you got served after i win in pvp.
Had my doubts about group combat but after seeing they use the Holy Trinity im actualy pro TOR now. Played a few games without the trinity and it turns into a dps game with no group mechanics (SWG comes to mind, liked the game but group combat sucked).
Imo TOR is shaping up nicely.
Star Trek= Awesome IP with TONS of potential. Guess how that turned out.
Bioware= Good at writing books, bad at making compelling gameplay.
Sounds and looks like a very average MMO to me.
It's also just like in Age of Conan. The Fanboi Patrol were flaming any negative posting (reasonable or not). Stuff like the player should just leave, they won't be missed.
Well, people did leave AoC. And their dev team sure misses them
The funny part is the TOR fans are already talking the same stuff BEFORE the game has released! Oh the comedy!
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Bioware are bad at making compelling gameplay? Seriously? Wow, you're in a minority on that one my friend.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
It amazes me the lengths some people will go to hate on anything thats popular.
Come on you have to be insane to think Bioware doesnt create a compelling gameplay experience. the dudes dont make bad games!!!!!!
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Well, I gotta agree with him. BW's latest games don't have the magic they used to have in the past. Story is always great, I won't argue with that, but the overall gameplay feels shallow and somehow very simple.