Uhm, I guess you have not been keeping up with the news. Any post you make on the forum, will be made with your realID.
The irony is strong in this one.
Well, not anymore. This is officially a moot point, as Blizzard has come to their senses and scrapped REALID (at least for posting your real names on the forums)
I think the irony is definitely still there, he is asking if people are keeping up with the news. Well, now that the change is not going ahead and there will be no realID on the forums, I do find that post ironic.
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Just like in my duaghter's 2nd grade class, everyone has a name and they are not "pwnsauce" or "megatron" or "Gankurface"
These WoW kids need to show their name, so they can be held accountable for causing trouble for others and a headache for moderators
What do you mean held accountable?
I ask this every time someone claims a real name provides an avenue of accountability and no one has explained what they imagine this form of accountability to take that involves the person's real name.
Accountability in the sense that if you piss some one off they can track you down by yout name and beat you senseless for lacking etiquette?
Accountability in the sense that everything you say is stuck to your name for the world to see, and there's no alias to take the blame should you desire a different one after taking too much flak?
I can certainly understand what and why some one might have wanted to implement something such as this. I do think however that, as has been recently proven sadly, such a thing is a little too mature (and as consequence risky) for the internet, where people ruin lives for fun.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Originally posted by Hrica Just like in my duaghter's 2nd grade class, everyone has a name and they are not "pwnsauce" or "megatron" or "Gankurface" These WoW kids need to show their name, so they can be held accountable for causing trouble for others and a headache for moderators
What do you mean held accountable?
I ask this every time someone claims a real name provides an avenue of accountability and no one has explained what they imagine this form of accountability to take that involves the person's real name.
Accountability in the sense that if you piss some one off they can track you down by yout name and beat you senseless for lacking etiquette?
Accountability in the sense that everything you say is stuck to your name for the world to see, and there's no alias to take the blame should you desire a different one after taking too much flak?
This is my point.
Having everything you say stuck to your name? Most trolls aren't going to give a damn. No one irl will ever know or care that they are an ass on the internet. Social stigma as accountability does not exist for this.
The only accountability I can perceive as a result of real names is being tracked down and beat up or reverse trolling - posting on their girlfriend's facebook that he's cheating on her, calling his boss and telling them he's stealing from the company. Does this sound *sane* to you? It's vigilante justice we're talking about. No one even decides how much harassment is justified to punish the troll or how many get to participate. It's too easy to *become* a troll by trying to counter trolling this way.
And that is why I ask. I don't think people are thinking through what accountability is actually attached to a real name. It's either useless, or insane. Moderation is the answer, *not* giving out real information for the community to act on however they deem worthy.
Just like in my duaghter's 2nd grade class, everyone has a name and they are not "pwnsauce" or "megatron" or "Gankurface"
These WoW kids need to show their name, so they can be held accountable for causing trouble for others and a headache for moderators
What do you mean held accountable?
I ask this every time someone claims a real name provides an avenue of accountability and no one has explained what they imagine this form of accountability to take that involves the person's real name.
Accountability in the sense that if you piss some one off they can track you down by yout name and beat you senseless for lacking etiquette?
Accountability in the sense that everything you say is stuck to your name for the world to see, and there's no alias to take the blame should you desire a different one after taking too much flak?
This is my point.
Having everything you say stuck to your name? Most trolls aren't going to give a damn. Lose their job at the grocery store? Not gonna happen. Lose their girlfriend? If he even has one she doesn't care what he's posting on the internets. Mom and Dad going to get mad? They don't even know what he's doing. Call the cops? And tell them what? No, social stigma as accountability does not exist for this.
The only accountability I can perceive as a result of real names is being tracked down and beat up or reverse trolling - posting on their girlfriend's facebook that he's cheating on her, calling his boss and telling them he's stealing from the company. Does this sound *sane* to you? It's vigilante justice we're talking about. No one even decides how much harassment is justified to punish the troll or how many get to participate.
And that is why I ask. I don't think people are thinking through what accountability is actually attached to a real name. It's either useless, or insane. Moderation is the answer, *not* giving out real information for the community to act on however they deem worthy.
And that might actually be a point I consider as good for it.
People troll enough to get hated? If they live by the rule of anything goes on the internet, then they can also die by it. Goes right back to my comment on etiquette. It exists in the first place so people don't ring eachother's necks figuratively and/or literally.
And since my second comment seemed to pass by somewhat misunderstood. When someone trolls hard enough to get such ire, they have no fallback in such a case. They can't roll a new account name up each time people damn them to hell hard enough to get them banned or otherwise, because their name will be proudly standing there immediately declaring they're the same person as before.
Now I'm sure there's many that might try circumventing that by making up names for their ID, but in the case of WoW where you need a subscription, verifying ID through your card by at least blood relation, last name, or approved spouse/maiden name, etc then you aren't left with much capacity to bullshit your audience.
'Desperate times calls for desperate measures.' If some one is trolling hard enough to piss some one off that much that they feel the wrath elsewhere, then they probably deserve it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
'Desperate times calls for desperate measures.' If some one is trolling hard enough to piss some one off that much that they feel the wrath elsewhere, then they probably deserve it.
So escalation is the answer I guess. But it's protecting you from not doing something stupid by not knowing their real name as much as it protects them, imo. I think it's better to keep them sequestered from the rest of your life and having a mod ban them out of existence. Most people are or should be tied to a unique IP address that can be used for this purpose. I've little problem with a unique private ID being using to moderate an individual by responsible parties.
'Desperate times calls for desperate measures.' If some one is trolling hard enough to piss some one off that much that they feel the wrath elsewhere, then they probably deserve it.
So escalation is the answer I guess. But it's protecting you from not doing something stupid by not knowing their real name as much as it protects them, imo. I think it's better to keep them sequestered from the rest of your life and having a mod ban them out of existence. Most people are or should be tied to a unique IP address that can be used for this purpose. I've little problem with a unique private ID being using to moderate an individual by responsible parties.
Sure, that can happen so long as it's handled by a good enough team of enforcement with enough time and body count to deal with the people theyre regulating.
Which in the case of Blizzard is...how many players again? How many moderators would it take to properly sift through all the posts to make sure all the little things stop falling through the cracks?
At best their current capacity is to silence and remove things that are particularly damaging to themselves and inciteful enough to others to cause miniature riots. A lot of the trolling still rools on past reulations though. There's simply no way for it to be managed better by the moderators because even as a full time job they can only sift through so many posts themselfes and deal with only so many flagged comments, and only process so many reports in a day.
Your solution is only effective if BLizzard hires an army. While one is fond of screaming bloody murder at the idea of the real ID stuff, that people will go overboard and what not, it's also a blatant disregard for repeated comments I and others have made. As hence proven by the twice cherry picked quotes you've railed on now.
We can not self regulate, and deferring regulatory authority to another is as big of a limit and mistake as anything else. Communal regulation, while offering the possibility of harsh punishment and abuse, is also relatively commonly prone to a balance. Hell, that's part of how society works in the first place. Social etiquette, something that lacks big time on the internet because it's always been a harsh environment full of cut throat anons. Social etiquette, the set of conventions each cunture developed over time to unify and regulate people as a populace. My argument to this point is it's the groundwork necessary to develop a balance. Shying away from anything that can have an extreme effect is to shy away from the things that must be done to actually attain real progress.
You can have your stunted system with the rampant brats and trolls. I'd rather wade through the trials and tribulations of making something better.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Just like in my duaghter's 2nd grade class, everyone has a name and they are not "pwnsauce" or "megatron" or "Gankurface"
These WoW kids need to show their name, so they can be held accountable for causing trouble for others and a headache for moderators
What do you mean held accountable?
I ask this every time someone claims a real name provides an avenue of accountability and no one has explained what they imagine this form of accountability to take that involves the person's real name.
EXACTLY.. what are you going to do with a real name vs a character name? Call them at home and harrass them? Go beat them up? Cause trouble for them at work? Post all kinds of comments and whatnots on the net attacking them in cyber space? Sounds to me the only "accountablity" is EXACTLY the reason why any form of real ID is dangerous..
One poster said it perfectly.. This was Blizzard promoting "vigilante" justice giving out real names to police the forums.. That was wrong on so many levels and should be proof enough to the wrecklessness of Blizzard
Just like in my duaghter's 2nd grade class, everyone has a name and they are not "pwnsauce" or "megatron" or "Gankurface"
These WoW kids need to show their name, so they can be held accountable for causing trouble for others and a headache for moderators
What do you mean held accountable?
I ask this every time someone claims a real name provides an avenue of accountability and no one has explained what they imagine this form of accountability to take that involves the person's real name.
EXACTLY.. what are you going to do with a real name vs a character name? Call them at home and harrass them? Go beat them up? Cause trouble for them at work? Post all kinds of comments and whatnots on the net attacking them in cyber space? Sounds to me the only "accountablity" is EXACTLY the reason why any form of real ID is dangerous..
One poster said it perfectly.. This was Blizzard promoting "vigilante" justice giving out real names to police the forums.. That was wrong on so many levels and should be proof enough to the wrecklessness of Blizzard
This summarizes it perfectly
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Sure, that can happen so long as it's handled by a good enough team of enforcement with enough time and body count to deal with the people theyre regulating.
Which in the case of Blizzard is...how many players again? How many moderators would it take to properly sift through all the posts to make sure all the little things stop falling through the cracks?
At best their current capacity is to silence and remove things that are particularly damaging to themselves and inciteful enough to others to cause miniature riots. A lot of the trolling still rools on past reulations though. There's simply no way for it to be managed better by the moderators because even as a full time job they can only sift through so many posts themselfes and deal with only so many flagged comments, and only process so many reports in a day.
Your solution is only effective if BLizzard hires an army. While one is fond of screaming bloody murder at the idea of the real ID stuff, that people will go overboard and what not, it's also a blatant disregard for repeated comments I and others have made. As hence proven by the twice cherry picked quotes you've railed on now.
There's much larger forums than Blizzard's (Rank #1390), theirs isn't even the largest forum devoted to Blizzard's own games and the others have no problem moderating them without real names. Most of them don't even have the advantage of having a membership fee. Blizzard's forums have both ad revenue and are tied into the $15 monthly fee, if they aren't paying moderators it's because they don't value the quality of their forums.
I apologize for cherry picking arguments. I didn't want to make posts become unmanageably large, and it's difficult for me to keep things short Anything I didn't directly respond to I either didn't have a strong enough argument to use space up on with or thought it would be covered in the other points I made. I understand your position and it does hold some merit, so anything I skip you can take as a win for you
We can not self regulate, and deferring regulatory authority to another is as big of a limit and mistake as anything else. Communal regulation, while offering the possibility of harsh punishment and abuse, is also relatively commonly prone to a balance. Hell, that's part of how society works in the first place. Social etiquette, something that lacks big time on the internet because it's always been a harsh environment full of cut throat anons. Social etiquette, the set of conventions each cunture developed over time to unify and regulate people as a populace. My argument to this point is it's the groundwork necessary to develop a balance. Shying away from anything that can have an extreme effect is to shy away from the things that must be done to actually attain real progress.
You can have your stunted system with the rampant brats and trolls. I'd rather wade through the trials and tribulations of making something better.
Why can't communal regulation be directly managed through the forum software? Such as making everyone a mod through a ranking system. Someone trolls they get voted down and their posts don't show, and also get flagged to the moderators so they know to check the person out and see if they need banning. Community can do the work to help the mods without taking it outside the forums where things can get stupid.
Like I said there are many much larger and well regulated forums that don't use real names, and most of them just use a system like this to help manage it, and also have very strict and active moderators. Most bans on Blizz forums are just 3 hour or 3 day variety. No trolls care because they just go play WoW till they can post again.
I think we just aren't being clever enough if we think we need to beat people up over this shit.
You have to be rather deceptively misinformed to believe that... Namely, look at the top forums. You'll notice they're all troll centrals. You don't see people bitching about them because every one on them does it. That's the opposite of having good regulation, that's having none. And you can easily see the level of maturity disseminated form those places is non-existant as a result.
Communal regulation can certainly hep out a lot, and I will concede it may manage to solve enough of the issues that trolls die down without resorting to more drastic measures. But as I've said multiple times, this is hardy moving anything forward for etiquette on the internet.
Communal regulation also has it's pitfalls. Enough trolls running the place and suddenly it's 'wrong' to be anything but a brat. Remember youtube forums at all? You had to introduce yourself in as offensive a way as possible so the community wouldn't bury you alive. Can't cay if it's the same way since Goggle took over, but yeah, that idea is just as much a double edged sword as any other you're willing to promote instead of true ID.
As for larger forums being able to successfully regulateu sing such methods, that likely means they meet some very important prior criteria.
1. When they started, they squashed the problems before they could grow.
2. The community as a result was developed with a more fair minded mentality, thereby allowing the effective use of looser control methods.
3. As it grew, the regulatory mechanics weren't compromised by any kinda influx of trolling.
Blizzard did not meet these criteria. As a result, the simple options just aren't going to be enough, period. They will be abused just as much or more than they will benefit the users upon inception under current standing, and without any higher degree of accountability, they will simply become the next best tools to troll with.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Add to that blizzard couldn't care less about trolling. Obvious troll posts don't get locked, obvious trolls get ignored by MVP's , well no on WoW EU i see forum mods do something: reply with angry posts on trolls . And that's it . Does any green/blue even bother locking or banning obvious trolls? no . If they'd care there would be more locking and banning and surely a decrease in trolling but they just don't care.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I think it's great, simply by looking at the responses people have to this. Offcourse people are going to cry a river; they won't be able to forum-grief anymore while hiding behind their "p0wnzo0rz" alias.
I'm for it, simply because I have nothing to hide.
Btw: Blizzard isn't going to magically go bankrupt over this either. Who are people trying to kid?
I think bizkitNL hit this nail on the head. I cant stand reading the forums over at wow forums let alone post there god forbid. If I was given a choice of to have to read the wow forums in there current form or eat shit as a profession I would take the latter. Im compleatly 100% behind what blizzard did and I can only hope and pray that they will revert back to the realid system.
To any one Iv offended Im sorry but Im very passionet about this. I first thought of ways that would make using the wow forums better when Wow first came out. I never posted there once though, because it was down right cruel forum policy even for the hardest of individuals. People can post about how they enjoy the game and some how things will get twisted into rasicism,hate,discrimination and people end up geting hurt. This happens in just about every damn discussion there Iv ever read and most the time all I get out of it is a wopping migrane leaving me pondering who is god. Seriously something needs to be done over there! Theres no justification in prosecuting blzzards realid system by saying that your just not going to post any more cause boo hoo I dont like there policy now. I think the backlash seen by the community from blizzards realid system is an indication of how scared people are. Instead of worrying about the wow forums, maybee some of those trolls could put there energy into importand discussion such as the thousands of miles of ruined beaches and millions of displaced people in are own nation. You wana talk about privacy, how about having companys controll peoples lives by destroying billions of dollars worth of economic function in are own economy and people not even glancing at it, but god forbid blizzard changes a small function of there forums and north america goes into a shit frenzy fight. I think peoples interest are better served in other areas of thought instead of there own greedy nature.
I support the idea of blizzards realid system cause In my mind I helped them with it. I always thought there had to be a better way to get the players involved with world of warcraft. The players that attempt to troll with war hate tatics by saying there privacy is being breached,they wont ever buy another game by blizzard or the best one god forbid they just wont post any more gee golly(theres litterly hundreads of millions of people that have played world of warcraft, Im sure some one of them can make up for your forum posting) I think this diminishes what makes world of warcraft great. These people are a small minority of the player base that even gets to post on the wow forums in the first place cause who wants to post on a troll infested flame hate racist forum any way, ill tell you who I DONT! And alot of people that play wow dont. Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming.
I think it's great, simply by looking at the responses people have to this. Offcourse people are going to cry a river; they won't be able to forum-grief anymore while hiding behind their "p0wnzo0rz" alias.
I'm for it, simply because I have nothing to hide.
Btw: Blizzard isn't going to magically go bankrupt over this either. Who are people trying to kid?
I think bizkitNL hit this nail on the head. I cant stand reading the forums over at wow forums let alone post there god forbid. If I was given a choice of to have to read the wow forums in there current form or eat shit as a profession I would take the latter. Im compleatly 100% behind what blizzard did and I can only hope and pray that they will revert back to the realid system.
Yeah but see, that's the problem.
The proposed RealID changes to the forums had absolutely nothing to do with preventing forum trolls, nor would it do anything to prevent the real trolls from continuing. The true trolls really don't care if their real names are displayed, because they aren't in a position where having their real names displayed is an issue.
If Blizzard was truly serious about dealing with trolling, they would have been banning trolls rather than simply locking or deleting posts/threads from them, for the past 5 plus years.
The sad truth of it all is that it's the regular innocent forum users that are needlessly having their names presented to the world for what amounts to absolutely no truly valid reason*.
*The only sensible reason why Blizzard was trying to push this joke of a system on customers is the facebook integration they're planning on. Even so, terrible reason to force such a thing on everyone, with no way to reasonably opt out of it.
"Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming."
Personally i saw totally the opposite:(on wow EU forums)
-Players in favor: It will prevent trolling !!111
-Players against:
It won't prevent trolling that much , hardcore trolls would either give false names or they don't care anyway (one of the posters even provided an example of the most infamous troll of the Karazan realm forum who gave his name away and tbh its not the honest poster who'd use someone's name for god knows what) .
It would create risks , while maybe not a lot still some , as some trolls or any other kind of unstable person could use your name to track you and use it for all kinds of bad things (stalking , going at your home , etc...)
It could hurt some people's job carreers , not every boss is keen about seeing someone's name come up 50x on the wow forums when googled.
If allowed blizzard might take it even further , like in game Real ID , better stop a fire when it starts than waiting until the whole forest is burning. (and in game Real ID IS dangerous , i've met quite some disturbing persons in game and there are quite a lot of things that could frustrate unstable persons in game enough to get to you, like losing a roll and such) .
So if you ask me , i think the side with the most and best arguementation is quite clear. And it's not the one in favor of Real ID.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) regarding the policy recently announced by Blizzard Entertainment which would have required participants in its official forums to post comments using their real first and last names, and for expressing your concerns regarding potential privacy implications.
It is our understanding that Blizzard has provided an update announcing that it will not be implementing the above-referenced policy with respect to its forums, and users will not be required to post using their real names. You can read Blizzard’s announcement regarding this most recent development at http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968987278&sid=1&pageNo=1.
Separately, if you have questions regarding Blizzard’s implementation of its Real ID option -- which by our understanding is unrelated to Blizzard's plans for its forums -- and/or the new capabilities this option offers, they will likely be answered by reviewing the information posted at http://www.battle.net/realid/.
ESRB, through its Privacy Online program, helps companies develop practices to safeguard users’ personal information online while still providing a safe and enjoyable video game experience for all. We appreciate your taking the time to contact us with your concerns, and please feel free to direct any future inquiries you may have regarding online privacy to our attention.
"Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming."
Personally i saw totally the opposite:(on wow EU forums)
-Players in favor: It will prevent trolling !!111
-Players against:
It won't prevent trolling that much , hardcore trolls would either give false names or they don't care anyway (one of the posters even provided an example of the most infamous troll of the Karazan realm forum who gave his name away and tbh its not the honest poster who'd use someone's name for god knows what) .
It would create risks , while maybe not a lot still some , as some trolls or any other kind of unstable person could use your name to track you and use it for all kinds of bad things (stalking , going at your home , etc...)
It could hurt some people's job carreers , not every boss is keen about seeing someone's name come up 50x on the wow forums when googled.
If allowed blizzard might take it even further , like in game Real ID , better stop a fire when it starts than waiting until the whole forest is burning. (and in game Real ID IS dangerous , i've met quite some disturbing persons in game and there are quite a lot of things that could frustrate unstable persons in game enough to get to you, like losing a roll and such) .
So if you ask me , i think the side with the most and best arguementation is quite clear. And it's not the one in favor of Real ID.
I just read the start of the Northamerican realid threads but they were terrible reads and it was the same stuff being posted after only 3 pages. I didnt visit EU though so I suppose things could be better over there. Go read the north american threads if you havent yet. You seem adiment though in your opinion. Dont you think there might be some good with it. Its already being used and has been tested. This isnt the NGE! ITs a simple change in how the forums work...
"Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming."
Personally i saw totally the opposite:(on wow EU forums)
-Players in favor: It will prevent trolling !!111
-Players against:
It won't prevent trolling that much , hardcore trolls would either give false names or they don't care anyway (one of the posters even provided an example of the most infamous troll of the Karazan realm forum who gave his name away and tbh its not the honest poster who'd use someone's name for god knows what) .
It would create risks , while maybe not a lot still some , as some trolls or any other kind of unstable person could use your name to track you and use it for all kinds of bad things (stalking , going at your home , etc...)
It could hurt some people's job carreers , not every boss is keen about seeing someone's name come up 50x on the wow forums when googled.
If allowed blizzard might take it even further , like in game Real ID , better stop a fire when it starts than waiting until the whole forest is burning. (and in game Real ID IS dangerous , i've met quite some disturbing persons in game and there are quite a lot of things that could frustrate unstable persons in game enough to get to you, like losing a roll and such) .
So if you ask me , i think the side with the most and best arguementation is quite clear. And it's not the one in favor of Real ID.
I just read the start of the Northamerican realid threads but they were terrible reads and it was the same stuff being posted after only 3 pages. I didnt visit EU though so I suppose things could be better over there. Go read the north american threads if you havent yet. You seem adiment though in your opinion. Dont you think there might be some good with it. Its already being used and has been tested. This isnt the NGE! ITs a simple change in how the forums work...
Well there was useless spam as well on the EU forums , but when taking all the arguementation together it seemed the "contra-Real ID" side had more content on their side so to speak. But from what i've heard the US forums are much worse than EU as it seems there is simply no moderation there (on the EU forum there is a little bit of it , tho its far from being decent if you ask me).
And this reminds me an other point they brought up:
There are other options that would contain less risks like increasing the moderation or harsher measures taken against trolls (longer bans or even in-game bans). These would definately help without causing the privacy risks Real ID could cause.
Now i must admit at first i wasn't totally against Real ID but that was until i thought about all the potential risks, sure the chances it will harm you are minimal but unlike many think: it doesnt only happen to the others.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Well there was useless spam as well on the EU forums , but when taking all the arguementation together it seemed the "contra-Real ID" side had more content on their side so to speak. But from what i've heard the US forums are much worse than EU as it seems there is simply no moderation there (on the EU forum there is a little bit of it , tho its far from being decent if you ask me).
I used to browse the US boards now and then, but mostly gave up because everytime there was an interesting thread, it was deleted while I was reading it... On the whole I'd say the quality of the US forum is higher, as it gets real dev attention and lots of real answers from the blues. The euro-forum gets sod all from the blues, so people are much more frustrated there.
Well there was useless spam as well on the EU forums , but when taking all the arguementation together it seemed the "contra-Real ID" side had more content on their side so to speak. But from what i've heard the US forums are much worse than EU as it seems there is simply no moderation there (on the EU forum there is a little bit of it , tho its far from being decent if you ask me).
I used to browse the US boards now and then, but mostly gave up because everytime there was an interesting thread, it was deleted while I was reading it... On the whole I'd say the quality of the US forum is higher, as it gets real dev attention and lots of real answers from the blues. The euro-forum gets sod all from the blues, so people are much more frustrated there.
Well that's why i said: from what i heard Never visited those myself so i wouldn't know. Well actually i did visit it during the Real ID raging and it seemed there was no moderation , while on the EU side a lot of spam topics were locked.
But the new green moderators seem to be garbage on the EU forum. No offense meant but when you post in a topic filled with trolling and you don't find anything better than making an aggressive post towards a troll instead of deleting his posts and/or banning him you fail at moderating
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Well that's why i said: from what i heard Never visited those myself so i wouldn't know. Well actually i did visit it during the Real ID raging and it seemed there was no moderation , while on the EU side a lot of spam topics were locked.
But the new green moderators seem to be garbage on the EU forum. No offense meant but when you post in a topic filled with trolling and you don't find anything better than making an aggressive post towards a troll instead of deleting his posts and/or banning him you fail at moderating
Whether or not you lock offshoot topics during a craze like the realID thing is a matter of taste, I guess. During the days it lasted, it was the only thing worth discussing in general anyway. On the whole, I'd say it takes more for a thread to be locked/deleted in euro than in us.
But don't get med started on the green guys (MVPs) They don't have any powers to delete, so their only weapon is annoying you with fanboyism. The earlier MVPs may have had some weight within the community (talking euro-forum now), but with the current crop I've no idea if anyone's listening.
Well that's why i said: from what i heard Never visited those myself so i wouldn't know. Well actually i did visit it during the Real ID raging and it seemed there was no moderation , while on the EU side a lot of spam topics were locked.
But the new green moderators seem to be garbage on the EU forum. No offense meant but when you post in a topic filled with trolling and you don't find anything better than making an aggressive post towards a troll instead of deleting his posts and/or banning him you fail at moderating
Whether or not you lock offshoot topics during a craze like the realID thing is a matter of taste, I guess. During the days it lasted, it was the only thing worth discussing in general anyway. On the whole, I'd say it takes more for a thread to be locked/deleted in euro than in us.
But don't get med started on the green guys (MVPs) They don't have any powers to delete, so their only weapon is annoying you with fanboyism. The earlier MVPs may have had some weight within the community (talking euro-forum now), but with the current crop I've no idea if anyone's listening.
Nope , i've even seen some get bashed by players lol
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Well that's why i said: from what i heard Never visited those myself so i wouldn't know. Well actually i did visit it during the Real ID raging and it seemed there was no moderation , while on the EU side a lot of spam topics were locked.
But the new green moderators seem to be garbage on the EU forum. No offense meant but when you post in a topic filled with trolling and you don't find anything better than making an aggressive post towards a troll instead of deleting his posts and/or banning him you fail at moderating
Whether or not you lock offshoot topics during a craze like the realID thing is a matter of taste, I guess. During the days it lasted, it was the only thing worth discussing in general anyway. On the whole, I'd say it takes more for a thread to be locked/deleted in euro than in us.
But don't get med started on the green guys (MVPs) They don't have any powers to delete, so their only weapon is annoying you with fanboyism. The earlier MVPs may have had some weight within the community (talking euro-forum now), but with the current crop I've no idea if anyone's listening.
Well, on the US forums, there were a couple MVPs that were outspoken against Real ID, so it's not all fanboyism.
Incidentally, and off topic, there was another thread about Real ID that I was participating in that got locked and redirected here. In it, I made a post using an analogy by exaggeration illustrating my opinion on the Real ID system as a whole and Blizzard's apparant attitude. In the next to the last post, some precious snowflake told me "Its never cool to kid about violent crimes. Please edit your post." I want to address you specifically, but I won't your name: No. Don't presume to tell me to censor myself because you're too frakking stupid to get the point.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I've read through a lot of this massive thread (but by no means as big as the one Blizzard had, lol), and noticed two major trolls nicknamed Munki and Treekodar that always vociferously advocated real names on Blizzard's forums. Yet they never once volunteered their real names in their postings. I even looked up their user information that the link on their forum nickname so conveniently provided and everything there was locked down, too. Oh my, oh gosh, what have they to hide?? Even their friends lists are listed as private!
/end sarcasm
Now, Munki and Treekodar, back up those mouths of yours, Expose just merely your real names on this forum and then the rest of us might sit up and take you seriously. I mean... it's ok, you have nothing to hide, privacy is useless and all that, amiright?
P.S. Voting ballots in societies where they actually vote for their leaders are anonymous for a reason. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
P.S.S. And what about people that are in Witness Protection programs? Should they have to reveal their real names on forums, too?
Blizzards Forums Blizzards Rules get over it. Oh your thread got locked or Oh this is a flame war here and all the mods are doing is jumping in... Blizzards Forums if you don't like them don't go to them there are plenty of other forums, that probly fit your wants and needs better, some people like those forums but they are BLIZZARDS FORUMS not your playground.
Yes, Serenes, and when Ford first made Model T's he only made them in the color black. When people complained, he replied,"You have a choice: buy them in the color black or don't buy them at all!" The rest is history. Now we can have cars in any model and any color we want. Yes, Blizzard can walk down this dark path, but they do so at their own peril. I can assure you that the vast majority of paying customers, once they get wind of what Blizzard wants to do will leave for other games or just leave altogether. I rest my case.
Comments
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
Mne eto nado kak zuby v zadnitse.
Accountability in the sense that if you piss some one off they can track you down by yout name and beat you senseless for lacking etiquette?
Accountability in the sense that everything you say is stuck to your name for the world to see, and there's no alias to take the blame should you desire a different one after taking too much flak?
I can certainly understand what and why some one might have wanted to implement something such as this. I do think however that, as has been recently proven sadly, such a thing is a little too mature (and as consequence risky) for the internet, where people ruin lives for fun.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Having everything you say stuck to your name? Most trolls aren't going to give a damn. No one irl will ever know or care that they are an ass on the internet. Social stigma as accountability does not exist for this.
The only accountability I can perceive as a result of real names is being tracked down and beat up or reverse trolling - posting on their girlfriend's facebook that he's cheating on her, calling his boss and telling them he's stealing from the company. Does this sound *sane* to you? It's vigilante justice we're talking about. No one even decides how much harassment is justified to punish the troll or how many get to participate. It's too easy to *become* a troll by trying to counter trolling this way.
And that is why I ask. I don't think people are thinking through what accountability is actually attached to a real name. It's either useless, or insane. Moderation is the answer, *not* giving out real information for the community to act on however they deem worthy.
And that might actually be a point I consider as good for it.
People troll enough to get hated? If they live by the rule of anything goes on the internet, then they can also die by it. Goes right back to my comment on etiquette. It exists in the first place so people don't ring eachother's necks figuratively and/or literally.
And since my second comment seemed to pass by somewhat misunderstood. When someone trolls hard enough to get such ire, they have no fallback in such a case. They can't roll a new account name up each time people damn them to hell hard enough to get them banned or otherwise, because their name will be proudly standing there immediately declaring they're the same person as before.
Now I'm sure there's many that might try circumventing that by making up names for their ID, but in the case of WoW where you need a subscription, verifying ID through your card by at least blood relation, last name, or approved spouse/maiden name, etc then you aren't left with much capacity to bullshit your audience.
'Desperate times calls for desperate measures.' If some one is trolling hard enough to piss some one off that much that they feel the wrath elsewhere, then they probably deserve it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So escalation is the answer I guess. But it's protecting you from not doing something stupid by not knowing their real name as much as it protects them, imo. I think it's better to keep them sequestered from the rest of your life and having a mod ban them out of existence. Most people are or should be tied to a unique IP address that can be used for this purpose. I've little problem with a unique private ID being using to moderate an individual by responsible parties.
Sure, that can happen so long as it's handled by a good enough team of enforcement with enough time and body count to deal with the people theyre regulating.
Which in the case of Blizzard is...how many players again? How many moderators would it take to properly sift through all the posts to make sure all the little things stop falling through the cracks?
At best their current capacity is to silence and remove things that are particularly damaging to themselves and inciteful enough to others to cause miniature riots. A lot of the trolling still rools on past reulations though. There's simply no way for it to be managed better by the moderators because even as a full time job they can only sift through so many posts themselfes and deal with only so many flagged comments, and only process so many reports in a day.
Your solution is only effective if BLizzard hires an army. While one is fond of screaming bloody murder at the idea of the real ID stuff, that people will go overboard and what not, it's also a blatant disregard for repeated comments I and others have made. As hence proven by the twice cherry picked quotes you've railed on now.
We can not self regulate, and deferring regulatory authority to another is as big of a limit and mistake as anything else. Communal regulation, while offering the possibility of harsh punishment and abuse, is also relatively commonly prone to a balance. Hell, that's part of how society works in the first place. Social etiquette, something that lacks big time on the internet because it's always been a harsh environment full of cut throat anons. Social etiquette, the set of conventions each cunture developed over time to unify and regulate people as a populace. My argument to this point is it's the groundwork necessary to develop a balance. Shying away from anything that can have an extreme effect is to shy away from the things that must be done to actually attain real progress.
You can have your stunted system with the rampant brats and trolls. I'd rather wade through the trials and tribulations of making something better.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
EXACTLY.. what are you going to do with a real name vs a character name? Call them at home and harrass them? Go beat them up? Cause trouble for them at work? Post all kinds of comments and whatnots on the net attacking them in cyber space? Sounds to me the only "accountablity" is EXACTLY the reason why any form of real ID is dangerous..
One poster said it perfectly.. This was Blizzard promoting "vigilante" justice giving out real names to police the forums.. That was wrong on so many levels and should be proof enough to the wrecklessness of Blizzard
This summarizes it perfectly
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
There's much larger forums than Blizzard's (Rank #1390), theirs isn't even the largest forum devoted to Blizzard's own games and the others have no problem moderating them without real names. Most of them don't even have the advantage of having a membership fee. Blizzard's forums have both ad revenue and are tied into the $15 monthly fee, if they aren't paying moderators it's because they don't value the quality of their forums.
I apologize for cherry picking arguments. I didn't want to make posts become unmanageably large, and it's difficult for me to keep things short
Why can't communal regulation be directly managed through the forum software? Such as making everyone a mod through a ranking system. Someone trolls they get voted down and their posts don't show, and also get flagged to the moderators so they know to check the person out and see if they need banning. Community can do the work to help the mods without taking it outside the forums where things can get stupid.Like I said there are many much larger and well regulated forums that don't use real names, and most of them just use a system like this to help manage it, and also have very strict and active moderators. Most bans on Blizz forums are just 3 hour or 3 day variety. No trolls care because they just go play WoW till they can post again.
I think we just aren't being clever enough if we think we need to beat people up over this shit.
You have to be rather deceptively misinformed to believe that... Namely, look at the top forums. You'll notice they're all troll centrals. You don't see people bitching about them because every one on them does it. That's the opposite of having good regulation, that's having none. And you can easily see the level of maturity disseminated form those places is non-existant as a result.
Communal regulation can certainly hep out a lot, and I will concede it may manage to solve enough of the issues that trolls die down without resorting to more drastic measures. But as I've said multiple times, this is hardy moving anything forward for etiquette on the internet.
Communal regulation also has it's pitfalls. Enough trolls running the place and suddenly it's 'wrong' to be anything but a brat. Remember youtube forums at all? You had to introduce yourself in as offensive a way as possible so the community wouldn't bury you alive. Can't cay if it's the same way since Goggle took over, but yeah, that idea is just as much a double edged sword as any other you're willing to promote instead of true ID.
As for larger forums being able to successfully regulateu sing such methods, that likely means they meet some very important prior criteria.
1. When they started, they squashed the problems before they could grow.
2. The community as a result was developed with a more fair minded mentality, thereby allowing the effective use of looser control methods.
3. As it grew, the regulatory mechanics weren't compromised by any kinda influx of trolling.
Blizzard did not meet these criteria. As a result, the simple options just aren't going to be enough, period. They will be abused just as much or more than they will benefit the users upon inception under current standing, and without any higher degree of accountability, they will simply become the next best tools to troll with.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Add to that blizzard couldn't care less about trolling. Obvious troll posts don't get locked, obvious trolls get ignored by MVP's , well no on WoW EU i see forum mods do something: reply with angry posts on trolls . And that's it . Does any green/blue even bother locking or banning obvious trolls? no . If they'd care there would be more locking and banning and surely a decrease in trolling but they just don't care.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
I think bizkitNL hit this nail on the head. I cant stand reading the forums over at wow forums let alone post there god forbid. If I was given a choice of to have to read the wow forums in there current form or eat shit as a profession I would take the latter. Im compleatly 100% behind what blizzard did and I can only hope and pray that they will revert back to the realid system.
To any one Iv offended Im sorry but Im very passionet about this. I first thought of ways that would make using the wow forums better when Wow first came out. I never posted there once though, because it was down right cruel forum policy even for the hardest of individuals. People can post about how they enjoy the game and some how things will get twisted into rasicism,hate,discrimination and people end up geting hurt. This happens in just about every damn discussion there Iv ever read and most the time all I get out of it is a wopping migrane leaving me pondering who is god. Seriously something needs to be done over there! Theres no justification in prosecuting blzzards realid system by saying that your just not going to post any more cause boo hoo I dont like there policy now. I think the backlash seen by the community from blizzards realid system is an indication of how scared people are. Instead of worrying about the wow forums, maybee some of those trolls could put there energy into importand discussion such as the thousands of miles of ruined beaches and millions of displaced people in are own nation. You wana talk about privacy, how about having companys controll peoples lives by destroying billions of dollars worth of economic function in are own economy and people not even glancing at it, but god forbid blizzard changes a small function of there forums and north america goes into a shit frenzy fight. I think peoples interest are better served in other areas of thought instead of there own greedy nature.
I support the idea of blizzards realid system cause In my mind I helped them with it. I always thought there had to be a better way to get the players involved with world of warcraft. The players that attempt to troll with war hate tatics by saying there privacy is being breached,they wont ever buy another game by blizzard or the best one god forbid they just wont post any more gee golly(theres litterly hundreads of millions of people that have played world of warcraft, Im sure some one of them can make up for your forum posting) I think this diminishes what makes world of warcraft great. These people are a small minority of the player base that even gets to post on the wow forums in the first place cause who wants to post on a troll infested flame hate racist forum any way, ill tell you who I DONT! And alot of people that play wow dont. Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming.
Yeah but see, that's the problem.
The proposed RealID changes to the forums had absolutely nothing to do with preventing forum trolls, nor would it do anything to prevent the real trolls from continuing. The true trolls really don't care if their real names are displayed, because they aren't in a position where having their real names displayed is an issue.
If Blizzard was truly serious about dealing with trolling, they would have been banning trolls rather than simply locking or deleting posts/threads from them, for the past 5 plus years.
The sad truth of it all is that it's the regular innocent forum users that are needlessly having their names presented to the world for what amounts to absolutely no truly valid reason*.
*The only sensible reason why Blizzard was trying to push this joke of a system on customers is the facebook integration they're planning on. Even so, terrible reason to force such a thing on everyone, with no way to reasonably opt out of it.
"Even just reading the threads made for the realid system of at wowforums, the only logical responces I read were from people that suported the system. The rest were just spamming."
Personally i saw totally the opposite:(on wow EU forums)
-Players in favor: It will prevent trolling !!111
-Players against:
It won't prevent trolling that much , hardcore trolls would either give false names or they don't care anyway (one of the posters even provided an example of the most infamous troll of the Karazan realm forum who gave his name away and tbh its not the honest poster who'd use someone's name for god knows what) .
It would create risks , while maybe not a lot still some , as some trolls or any other kind of unstable person could use your name to track you and use it for all kinds of bad things (stalking , going at your home , etc...)
It could hurt some people's job carreers , not every boss is keen about seeing someone's name come up 50x on the wow forums when googled.
If allowed blizzard might take it even further , like in game Real ID , better stop a fire when it starts than waiting until the whole forest is burning. (and in game Real ID IS dangerous , i've met quite some disturbing persons in game and there are quite a lot of things that could frustrate unstable persons in game enough to get to you, like losing a roll and such) .
So if you ask me , i think the side with the most and best arguementation is quite clear. And it's not the one in favor of Real ID.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) regarding the policy recently announced by Blizzard Entertainment which would have required participants in its official forums to post comments using their real first and last names, and for expressing your concerns regarding potential privacy implications.
It is our understanding that Blizzard has provided an update announcing that it will not be implementing the above-referenced policy with respect to its forums, and users will not be required to post using their real names. You can read Blizzard’s announcement regarding this most recent development at http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=25968987278&sid=1&pageNo=1.
Separately, if you have questions regarding Blizzard’s implementation of its Real ID option -- which by our understanding is unrelated to Blizzard's plans for its forums -- and/or the new capabilities this option offers, they will likely be answered by reviewing the information posted at http://www.battle.net/realid/.
ESRB, through its Privacy Online program, helps companies develop practices to safeguard users’ personal information online while still providing a safe and enjoyable video game experience for all. We appreciate your taking the time to contact us with your concerns, and please feel free to direct any future inquiries you may have regarding online privacy to our attention.
Regards,
Entertainment Software Rating Board
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I just read the start of the Northamerican realid threads but they were terrible reads and it was the same stuff being posted after only 3 pages. I didnt visit EU though so I suppose things could be better over there. Go read the north american threads if you havent yet. You seem adiment though in your opinion. Dont you think there might be some good with it. Its already being used and has been tested. This isnt the NGE! ITs a simple change in how the forums work...
Well there was useless spam as well on the EU forums , but when taking all the arguementation together it seemed the "contra-Real ID" side had more content on their side so to speak. But from what i've heard the US forums are much worse than EU as it seems there is simply no moderation there (on the EU forum there is a little bit of it , tho its far from being decent if you ask me).
And this reminds me an other point they brought up:
There are other options that would contain less risks like increasing the moderation or harsher measures taken against trolls (longer bans or even in-game bans). These would definately help without causing the privacy risks Real ID could cause.
Now i must admit at first i wasn't totally against Real ID but that was until i thought about all the potential risks, sure the chances it will harm you are minimal but unlike many think: it doesnt only happen to the others.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Well that's why i said: from what i heard
Never visited those myself so i wouldn't know. Well actually i did visit it during the Real ID raging and it seemed there was no moderation , while on the EU side a lot of spam topics were locked.
But the new green moderators seem to be garbage on the EU forum. No offense meant but when you post in a topic filled with trolling and you don't find anything better than making an aggressive post towards a troll instead of deleting his posts and/or banning him you fail at moderating
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Whether or not you lock offshoot topics during a craze like the realID thing is a matter of taste, I guess. During the days it lasted, it was the only thing worth discussing in general anyway. On the whole, I'd say it takes more for a thread to be locked/deleted in euro than in us.
But don't get med started on the green guys (MVPs)
They don't have any powers to delete, so their only weapon is annoying you with fanboyism. The earlier MVPs may have had some weight within the community (talking euro-forum now), but with the current crop I've no idea if anyone's listening.
Nope , i've even seen some get bashed by players lol
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Well, on the US forums, there were a couple MVPs that were outspoken against Real ID, so it's not all fanboyism.
Incidentally, and off topic, there was another thread about Real ID that I was participating in that got locked and redirected here. In it, I made a post using an analogy by exaggeration illustrating my opinion on the Real ID system as a whole and Blizzard's apparant attitude. In the next to the last post, some precious snowflake told me "Its never cool to kid about violent crimes. Please edit your post." I want to address you specifically, but I won't your name: No. Don't presume to tell me to censor myself because you're too frakking stupid to get the point.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
I've read through a lot of this massive thread (but by no means as big as the one Blizzard had, lol), and noticed two major trolls nicknamed Munki and Treekodar that always vociferously advocated real names on Blizzard's forums. Yet they never once volunteered their real names in their postings. I even looked up their user information that the link on their forum nickname so conveniently provided and everything there was locked down, too. Oh my, oh gosh, what have they to hide?? Even their friends lists are listed as private!
/end sarcasm
Now, Munki and Treekodar, back up those mouths of yours, Expose just merely your real names on this forum and then the rest of us might sit up and take you seriously. I mean... it's ok, you have nothing to hide, privacy is useless and all that, amiright?
P.S. Voting ballots in societies where they actually vote for their leaders are anonymous for a reason. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
P.S.S. And what about people that are in Witness Protection programs? Should they have to reveal their real names on forums, too?
Blizzards Forums Blizzards Rules get over it. Oh your thread got locked or Oh this is a flame war here and all the mods are doing is jumping in... Blizzards Forums if you don't like them don't go to them there are plenty of other forums, that probly fit your wants and needs better, some people like those forums but they are BLIZZARDS FORUMS not your playground.
Yes, Serenes, and when Ford first made Model T's he only made them in the color black. When people complained, he replied,"You have a choice: buy them in the color black or don't buy them at all!" The rest is history. Now we can have cars in any model and any color we want. Yes, Blizzard can walk down this dark path, but they do so at their own peril. I can assure you that the vast majority of paying customers, once they get wind of what Blizzard wants to do will leave for other games or just leave altogether. I rest my case.