Permadeath is already in every game, just create a new character, bank or mail your gold and belongings to it, then delete your dead character and start over. Simple.
Yeah, that's what I tell the folks clamoring for space travel time in TOR. After choosing your destination, just walk away from the computer for several hours, play a game of Chess with your dog, then come back and hit the travel button.
Those asshats who think mana systems are useful, too. Why not just stop casting spells when you think you should have run out of mana? What's the difference?
Obviously, the point of wanting characters to actually die is that we'd enjoy losing them, and not because it would form an integral foundation for the entirety of the gameplay. Tacking on (or simulating via manual character deletion) permanent death to a game in which you're intended, by design, to die frequently, is definitely the same as building a game around the fact that death is a permanent disability. You hit it right on the nose.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
I would never play a permadeath-enforced MMO or any other game for that matter. Even in the old MUD days, the majority of successful MUDs were not permadeath systems. Those tended to be tiny niche systems and since they weren't expensive to make or maintain and were usually offered free-to-play, there were always new people coming in to offset the old people going out. Today, MMOs cost millions of dollars and years of development time to make, so they have to keep growing and bringing in more people, by several orders of magnitude, than the people leaving. There just aren't enough people interested in permadeath to make it a game worth producing.
Besides, if you want to play permadeath, if you die, DELETE YOUR OWN CHARACTER! Stop acting like everyone else has to do it just because you want to. You already have options. You don't have a right to force those options on anyone else.
I would never play a permadeath-enforced MMO or any other game for that matter. Even in the old MUD days, the majority of successful MUDs were not permadeath systems. Those tended to be tiny niche systems and since they weren't expensive to make or maintain and were usually offered free-to-play, there were always new people coming in to offset the old people going out. Today, MMOs cost millions of dollars and years of development time to make, so they have to keep growing and bringing in more people, by several orders of magnitude, than the people leaving. There just aren't enough people interested in permadeath to make it a game worth producing.
Besides, if you want to play permadeath, if you die, DELETE YOUR OWN CHARACTER! Stop acting like everyone else has to do it just because you want to. You already have options. You don't have a right to force those options on anyone else.
Whether or not _you_ would play the game is not what the OP is about. Surely you can realize that a game in which permanent death is a fundamental game mechanic, would by necessity be a completely different type of game than a game where permanent death was an option (eg. "just delete your own character). That's what the OP is about. Taking a modern MMO and slapping on permadeath is not the idea.
Money and funding for additional servers aside, I think if a separate server allowed such hardcore elements i would infact be very interested, Having my staple character safe on its, pvp/pve (etc) server, then having a different character on a hardcore server with players who chose to participate on it, full knowing the penalties that would apply after their death.
Ofcourse this does not solve issues resulting in lag or abusing certain mechanics within the game, it would be at the players own risk to play on the specific sever.
my 2 cents anyway.
Making so much noise you dont know when to listen.
I used to play Basic D&D and kept well on the borderlands.. I still get Bigby's +3 backscratcher jokes.. I had an Amoeba in Gamma World.. Yet now I have kids, wife and job and no time for permadeath. You may say that permadaeth keeps players honest but hey some folks would argure the same for ERP (/shudder). EQ1 IMHO had it about right, death penalties and a slow leveling system which kept folks socialable and formed (in-part) the base of many good fiendships.
In MUDs, perma-death was a very popular model. For whatever reason - and we can debate it until we're blue in the face - perma death never really translated into the graphical side of the genre. Why would text-based MMOs lend themselves to such harsh game worlds, while graphical MMOs have scarcely seen it at all? The reason can be summed up in one word: art.
Very simple. You are wrong in saying that perma-death was a very popular model. Text muds are never "very popular", compared to modern MMOs. We are talking about may be hundreds of users. Tell me a text muds that have more than 100k players? Even that is no where close to "very popular" in today MMO world.
So essentially the reason why you have a perception of perma-death being more popular is because old text muds are played by a niched audience anyway.
In A, X is true.
B is greater than A.
Therefore: in A, X is false.
What the fuck is that?
logic failure in third line, it should be;
Therefore: in B, X is false.
A is a small sample set which cant be generalized. Mostly RP people, whom when their character die create a bard and make song about it.
X is permadeath
true/false is being/not being popular as in %of gamers.
B is a big sample set which has different age groups, monetary, social, ethnic status.
No thanks. I find permadeath in any form be it old age or just dying in the game to be a MASSIVE waste of my time. Why would I put all that work and time into something that "dies" permanently?
I would never play a permadeath MMO until ALL instances of lag, crashes, etc. could be eliminated completely. I remember how mind-blowingly frustrating it was to lose even a relatively new hardcore character in D2 to a sudden lag spike. I couldn't imagine losing one that I'd spent hundreds of hours on in a similar fashion.
Unfortunately, I think such technical errors will always exist in some form or another.
But a item centric mmo would never see a permandeath ever as you said people would kill themselfs if they lose items they have grind for months to get them so permadeath would not work in such games.
Permadeath would only work if items dont have huge part in this game.
I dont think many will choose such games there just to emotional and attached to there avatar to lose it on permadeath.
Maybe as fast fun for some multiplayer game where you can easely jump again and have not bond with your character but i dont see it happen in a mmorpg.
If permadeath it prolly only happen in sandbox becouse themeparkers would never go for such harsh experience they would cry wholeday:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
No thanks. I find permadeath in any form be it old age or just dying in the game to be a MASSIVE waste of my time. Why would I put all that work and time into something that "dies" permanently?
To enjoy it while it "lives", and to make its "passing" an actual notable event in the game world?
Perma-death is a remenant of the old PnP game days, which was why it was so common in MUDs, because they were one of the early conversions of the classic RPG into the PC realm.
The thing is, perma death makes sense in a PnP RPG. The games are more focused around the adventure, about creating a story through your character, rather than about advancing your character like it is in today's MMOs. The death of the character had a place within that story, and typically if it did occur there were avenues to mitigate the loss, depending on the particular campaign you're playing. A good dungeon master gives options to players to avoid death, and should it happen, players can usually bring in a new character that is boosted up to the level of the rest of the party so they can continue the adventure.
MMOs however, are very much not like this. It's mostly hard coded and set to the whims of technology that sometimes behaves like voodoo. If you lose your connection, or have a bad bout of lag and and die, your character would be gone to no fault of your own. There's no 'options' or 'clever solutions' to tough situations that even the DM might not have expected. In the case of an MMO, the developers are the DM, and because everything is coded, there's very little dynamics to it all and it's all detatched and impersonal.
That is why perma-death games are simply flawed in the current architecture of MMOs.
No thanks. I find permadeath in any form be it old age or just dying in the game to be a MASSIVE waste of my time. Why would I put all that work and time into something that "dies" permanently?
To enjoy it while it "lives", and to make its "passing" an actual notable event in the game world?
that could work in old MUDs and pnp where u played in extremly tight communities (and in pnp, only you your 2 or 3 friends and the DM)
that doesnt fly in MMOs, noone will give a damn that someone on the other side of the continent died figthing bravely against 3 manbearpigs, when there are thousands more around you.
and to enjoy it while it lives? sure, but will you enjoy your second char the same? and your third? and your fourth?
permadeath adds wear out value to games, and the industry is based on adding as lil of this as possible...
Everybody is allowed to have one character on it to go with the countless toons you have on regular servers. If you feel like it you can go play on the permadeath server to change things up. You'll always have your main's / alts on the other servers.
I don't think this would be a horrible idea, might actually spice things up.
No thanks. I find permadeath in any form be it old age or just dying in the game to be a MASSIVE waste of my time. Why would I put all that work and time into something that "dies" permanently?
To enjoy it while it "lives", and to make its "passing" an actual notable event in the game world?
that could work in old MUDs and pnp where u played in extremly tight communities (and in pnp, only you your 2 or 3 friends and the DM)
that doesnt fly in MMOs, noone will give a damn that someone on the other side of the continent died figthing bravely against 3 manbearpigs, when there are thousands more around you.
and to enjoy it while it lives? sure, but will you enjoy your second char the same? and your third? and your fourth?
permadeath adds wear out value to games, and the industry is based on adding as lil of this as possible...
But why is someone fighting 3 manbearpigs? Is there a reason? Saving a village? Rescuing the princess? etc, etc . Of course not every death needs to or should be notable on a world scale, but the fact that a character was slain by the wild manbearpigs should have _some_ impact on the world. Will the manbearpigs now have free reign over the village? etc, etc. Permadeath and static world don't mix. There would need to be some kind of persistent consequence, a branch in the "story", upon a character's death.
Whether or not _you_ would play the game is not what the OP is about. [...]
The OP suggests that games *should* be like what he described - have permadeath. The guy you quoted and most people here, instead of directly opposing the OP's suggestion by saying he is wrong and such a thing shouldn't happen, instead go peacefully and just kindly respond that they wouldn't play such a game.
At the end of day, all these people - including me - that responded that they wouldn't play such a game, just don't care i think. If you find some developer that is willing to make such a game i won't try to stop anyone. We just wouldn't play it - you maybe don't care either, but developers care a lot.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
A is a small sample set which cant be generalized. Mostly RP people, whom when their character die create a bard and make song about it.
X is permadeath
true/false is being/not being popular as in %of gamers.
B is a big sample set which has different age groups, monetary, social, ethnic status.
To be fair, nariusseldon was the one that said "In A, X is false," because he said that permadeath wasn't popular in MUDs, and therefore it isn't popular in modern games.
Whatever the case, this should be in there somewhere:
A != B
Which I think is what you are saying? Even so, it doesn't necessarily follow that In B, X is false. It could be, but that can't be concluded from anything previously postulated.
Whether or not _you_ would play the game is not what the OP is about. Surely you can realize that a game in which permanent death is a fundamental game mechanic, would by necessity be a completely different type of game than a game where permanent death was an option (eg. "just delete your own character). That's what the OP is about. Taking a modern MMO and slapping on permadeath is not the idea.
Sure, but the fact remains that if you try to do that, you kill the game. There just aren't enough people interested in a forced permadeath game to make it financially viable. Like so many people who want extreme niche games, it's just not going to happen because it doesn't appeal to a wide enough audience.
You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
manners please
What difference does that make? You have no right whatsoever to force anyone else to play the game your way, period. If you want permadeath, kill your own character. If you have to have everyone else play like you do, you're a control freak.
You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
manners please
Of course they will if they subscribe to the same 'permadeath' playstyle as he does. Or are you suggesting that he would want to 'permakill' characters belonging to players who do not want to play by 'permadeath rules'? The would be immoral.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
Comments
Yeah, that's what I tell the folks clamoring for space travel time in TOR. After choosing your destination, just walk away from the computer for several hours, play a game of Chess with your dog, then come back and hit the travel button.
Those asshats who think mana systems are useful, too. Why not just stop casting spells when you think you should have run out of mana? What's the difference?
Obviously, the point of wanting characters to actually die is that we'd enjoy losing them, and not because it would form an integral foundation for the entirety of the gameplay. Tacking on (or simulating via manual character deletion) permanent death to a game in which you're intended, by design, to die frequently, is definitely the same as building a game around the fact that death is a permanent disability. You hit it right on the nose.
I would never play a permadeath-enforced MMO or any other game for that matter. Even in the old MUD days, the majority of successful MUDs were not permadeath systems. Those tended to be tiny niche systems and since they weren't expensive to make or maintain and were usually offered free-to-play, there were always new people coming in to offset the old people going out. Today, MMOs cost millions of dollars and years of development time to make, so they have to keep growing and bringing in more people, by several orders of magnitude, than the people leaving. There just aren't enough people interested in permadeath to make it a game worth producing.
Besides, if you want to play permadeath, if you die, DELETE YOUR OWN CHARACTER! Stop acting like everyone else has to do it just because you want to. You already have options. You don't have a right to force those options on anyone else.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Whether or not _you_ would play the game is not what the OP is about. Surely you can realize that a game in which permanent death is a fundamental game mechanic, would by necessity be a completely different type of game than a game where permanent death was an option (eg. "just delete your own character). That's what the OP is about. Taking a modern MMO and slapping on permadeath is not the idea.
Money and funding for additional servers aside, I think if a separate server allowed such hardcore elements i would infact be very interested, Having my staple character safe on its, pvp/pve (etc) server, then having a different character on a hardcore server with players who chose to participate on it, full knowing the penalties that would apply after their death.
Ofcourse this does not solve issues resulting in lag or abusing certain mechanics within the game, it would be at the players own risk to play on the specific sever.
my 2 cents anyway.
Making so much noise you dont know when to listen.
I used to play Basic D&D and kept well on the borderlands.. I still get Bigby's +3 backscratcher jokes.. I had an Amoeba in Gamma World.. Yet now I have kids, wife and job and no time for permadeath. You may say that permadaeth keeps players honest but hey some folks would argure the same for ERP (/shudder). EQ1 IMHO had it about right, death penalties and a slow leveling system which kept folks socialable and formed (in-part) the base of many good fiendships.
logic failure in third line, it should be;
Therefore: in B, X is false.
A is a small sample set which cant be generalized. Mostly RP people, whom when their character die create a bard and make song about it.
X is permadeath
true/false is being/not being popular as in %of gamers.
B is a big sample set which has different age groups, monetary, social, ethnic status.
I need more vespene gas.
You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
manners please
I need more vespene gas.
Perma death would be alright if you had a child to carry on the legacy passing on the skills etc. So, you don't lose anything.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Permadeath implies consequences. If you don't lose something then there is no point.
Seriously? Did you even read the OP? The OP is about permadeath as an integral part of the game, not "just delete your character, lolduh"
No thanks. I find permadeath in any form be it old age or just dying in the game to be a MASSIVE waste of my time. Why would I put all that work and time into something that "dies" permanently?
But a item centric mmo would never see a permandeath ever as you said people would kill themselfs if they lose items they have grind for months to get them so permadeath would not work in such games.
Permadeath would only work if items dont have huge part in this game.
I dont think many will choose such games there just to emotional and attached to there avatar to lose it on permadeath.
Maybe as fast fun for some multiplayer game where you can easely jump again and have not bond with your character but i dont see it happen in a mmorpg.
If permadeath it prolly only happen in sandbox becouse themeparkers would never go for such harsh experience they would cry wholeday:P
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
To enjoy it while it "lives", and to make its "passing" an actual notable event in the game world?
Perma-death is a remenant of the old PnP game days, which was why it was so common in MUDs, because they were one of the early conversions of the classic RPG into the PC realm.
The thing is, perma death makes sense in a PnP RPG. The games are more focused around the adventure, about creating a story through your character, rather than about advancing your character like it is in today's MMOs. The death of the character had a place within that story, and typically if it did occur there were avenues to mitigate the loss, depending on the particular campaign you're playing. A good dungeon master gives options to players to avoid death, and should it happen, players can usually bring in a new character that is boosted up to the level of the rest of the party so they can continue the adventure.
MMOs however, are very much not like this. It's mostly hard coded and set to the whims of technology that sometimes behaves like voodoo. If you lose your connection, or have a bad bout of lag and and die, your character would be gone to no fault of your own. There's no 'options' or 'clever solutions' to tough situations that even the DM might not have expected. In the case of an MMO, the developers are the DM, and because everything is coded, there's very little dynamics to it all and it's all detatched and impersonal.
That is why perma-death games are simply flawed in the current architecture of MMOs.
that could work in old MUDs and pnp where u played in extremly tight communities (and in pnp, only you your 2 or 3 friends and the DM)
that doesnt fly in MMOs, noone will give a damn that someone on the other side of the continent died figthing bravely against 3 manbearpigs, when there are thousands more around you.
and to enjoy it while it lives? sure, but will you enjoy your second char the same? and your third? and your fourth?
permadeath adds wear out value to games, and the industry is based on adding as lil of this as possible...
What about a permadeath server?
Everybody is allowed to have one character on it to go with the countless toons you have on regular servers. If you feel like it you can go play on the permadeath server to change things up. You'll always have your main's / alts on the other servers.
I don't think this would be a horrible idea, might actually spice things up.
But why is someone fighting 3 manbearpigs? Is there a reason? Saving a village? Rescuing the princess? etc, etc . Of course not every death needs to or should be notable on a world scale, but the fact that a character was slain by the wild manbearpigs should have _some_ impact on the world. Will the manbearpigs now have free reign over the village? etc, etc. Permadeath and static world don't mix. There would need to be some kind of persistent consequence, a branch in the "story", upon a character's death.
The OP suggests that games *should* be like what he described - have permadeath. The guy you quoted and most people here, instead of directly opposing the OP's suggestion by saying he is wrong and such a thing shouldn't happen, instead go peacefully and just kindly respond that they wouldn't play such a game.
At the end of day, all these people - including me - that responded that they wouldn't play such a game, just don't care i think. If you find some developer that is willing to make such a game i won't try to stop anyone. We just wouldn't play it - you maybe don't care either, but developers care a lot.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
To be fair, nariusseldon was the one that said "In A, X is false," because he said that permadeath wasn't popular in MUDs, and therefore it isn't popular in modern games.
Whatever the case, this should be in there somewhere:
A != B
Which I think is what you are saying? Even so, it doesn't necessarily follow that In B, X is false. It could be, but that can't be concluded from anything previously postulated.
Sure, but the fact remains that if you try to do that, you kill the game. There just aren't enough people interested in a forced permadeath game to make it financially viable. Like so many people who want extreme niche games, it's just not going to happen because it doesn't appeal to a wide enough audience.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
What difference does that make? You have no right whatsoever to force anyone else to play the game your way, period. If you want permadeath, kill your own character. If you have to have everyone else play like you do, you're a control freak.
Get over it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Of course they will if they subscribe to the same 'permadeath' playstyle as he does. Or are you suggesting that he would want to 'permakill' characters belonging to players who do not want to play by 'permadeath rules'? The would be immoral.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
==================================================
Happy! Happy! Joy! Joy!
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).