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The problem with MMOs isn't the games themselves...
saebrin
Member Posts: 29
...but the way the player base has been playing them ever since they got over their honeymoon phase with their first MMO. You probably know what I'm talking about. That mentality that requires getting to max level the fastest and most efficient way possible, ignores the story due to inconvenience and slowing down the leveling process, and makes cookie cutter "builds" the way everyone has to play if they don't want to be completely left behind by 80% of the population in some way or another.
Not many people play these games as they would other games, where they actually enjoy the content and aren't just "grinding" through it to get somewhere else. Not many people pay attention to how interesting or compelling the NPCs are, or to the story (that is, when either of those things are present at all) which is why quests aren't well written in a lot of games. What's the point of paying people to write something great when your target audience doesn't care about it?
In short, the only thing that needs to change about MMOs is that at least 80% of the players need to quit the genre forever and never come back. Oh, and the tiny hope that those who remain and those who will come after won't just adopt the same dull approach.
Comments
Eh not a bad observation, but I think it's much too broad to be considered thesis or anything.
What about the fact that we fall in love with our first MMO. We play it, we 'beat it'. How do you beat a MMO? Well you see everything it has to offer and you become tired of it. Time is the biggest enemy and how developers choose to combat time.
There's also the 'next big thing factor' that's been around since humans could communicate I'm sure. In development MMOs hype our imaginations to incredible heights and ultimately fail to deliver. Then our expectations can't take us back to our first beloved MMO. So we have to wait for the next one, and the next one, and the next one.
Really I like how Cryptic handled City of Heroes/Villains and their current dev team under NCSoft. They're pretty upfront about their product. I think FFXIV has that factor to an extent tho' not a lot of info crosses the boarder. Guild Wars 2 has done a great job at explaining their game in layman's terms so it's hype seems about right and approachable.
We'll see the player base and the creator community become more real with the language as the genre matures. That'll fix a lot of these 'problems' posts.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Again that's why it's important to attract new players. There are enough people becoming old enough to play these games every year who have never played a mmorpg that your game could totally survive off their subscriptions alone.
Even from the start of an MMO there's going to be the player with the mentality: "I want to be powerful. I want to have it all, and show everyone that I am better." With that in mind, these initials players, instead of taking their time like the others, sprinted full force into the fray.
The ones that were left behind looked ahead and thought... Hey, they're simply running around like madmen, and they're more powerful than I! There must be a way to match their power in half the time!
And so on.
Pretty soon the entire emphasis is going to be on who can get the most power the fastest. Who can charge through the bulk of the game to get to the end content, "Because that's where the party is."
This is the problem with the grandfather leveling system... It's too oldschool, and other systems should begin to be considered. Systems that do not give the player the mentality of "I feel puny and weak, and the only way to feel like I matter in this world is to get to that level waaaaaay up there."
Bollocks.
Or the games need to be designed differently. About something else than the level grind. About a world and what happens in that world, and how the player can affect that or be affected by it.
Once upon a time....
Actually mmo's DO reflect real life a lot. What would this world be like if we gave kids the ability to "level up" to cap in a short amount of time? All that power and NO experience or wisdom in the use of that power. It would be an ideal recipe for an epic disaster. I have no problem with the "grind". It's just a grind because a bunch of little kids don't want to smell the roses along the way. They have to show off that big epeen of theirs which, by the way, no one cares about in the slightest. I've played enough mmo's now to realize that I'm in NO hurry to get to maximum level. As the original poster said, it's not the games, it's the player base that is the problem. No matter in what way you shape a game, there will always be a "leveling up" process of some sort however disguised it may be.
I'm so amused at all these players that want to show off their epeen by saying they want ffa pvp and they want have an absolute effect on their world, blah blah, and they don't have even the slightest idea of what the true consequences of their ideas would be. I could write an essay on that, but I'll save it for another time. Just slow down and try to get into the story line, people! Level cap is so ridiculously easy now that the time to get there anymore shouldn't even be an issue. Immerse yourself in the environment, the story, the world of which your character is playing and the leveling process will take care of itself without any real effort on your part.
I have vowed to myself to watch all of the cutscenes and voice acting without skipping/hurrying through on at least the first play through.
Yeah, I used to "hurry a lot and worry a lot" trying to reach level cap as fast as I could. But after playing so many of them, I decided that it just defeats the whole point of the game to always be in a hurry to cap. So nowadays, I try to do every quest in a zone that I can before I go to the next one so I can soak up the atmosphere and to explore the nooks and crannies. Leveling up happens now almost against my will and too fast.
You guys out there that enjoy this hobby as much as I do know all the usual stuff like aggro management, handling multiple mobs, traveling, skilling up, finding your way around, kiting, blah blah. Once you have all that down, then any mmo is going to sort of seem the same. If one does any sort of hobby for any great length of tme, it will ALWAYS seem a "grind" after a while. The only difference in mmo's now is the story line. Sure there is room for innovation, but ideas like perma-death or ffa-fl-pvp aren't it. But in the meantime, mmo's are doing just fine, tyvm.
Don't you freakin' dare try to remove heat off the dev teams out there, especially the incompetently done games. Badly designed and executed games are still bad. Broken, unbalanced systems. Blatantly incomplete content, factions, etc. Yes, all MMORPGs are never truly complete, they are WIPs, but there's a difference between that and something that was sold to us that is outright incomplete. Or better yet, how these developers with interviews and previews talk about this and that in their upcoming game, but when you try it when it goes live, those features are nowhere to be found. Or are so bare bones and incomplete that you're left wondering "WTF were they talking about?" Or, the system is again, broken.
And you're trying to shift away blame from incompetent devs and their bad games to the CUSTOMERS? Screw you. You probably WANT those brand new players to MMORPGs because they don't know as well how they're getting shafted by your practices. You can milk the living life out them with minimal effort and piss-poor products.
Bad products are bad products. The End.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I have noticed a change in the general community. I think it's partly because I have changed. I probably used to be the same way, but now I react differently when I see players obsessed with level cap, end game, or loot upgrades. It kind of makes me sad that I don't have as much in common with the majority of players anymore.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
It again comes down to the fact that most MMO's have become single player games. As there's no need to look around for people to group with or help with certain things, you only have yourself to play with. Some people have a lot more time than others, so it might look like they're rushing to endgame but all they're doing is spending their time playing the MMO. 8+ hours a day playing through the game is going to see them at endgame in no time, especially with how easy games have become lately.
Even the older games are starting to suffer from this, such as EverQuest - I went back there recently and with the rise of mercenaries I managed to go from level 1-50 in one days play. It's just stupid.
I agree, although I can no longer summon quite so much disdain these days.
To the point, look at how Rift: Planes of Telara is promoting "rifts" as if it's something special. All it is is a spawn. Sheesh, slap on a different name and call it special? And look how Star Wars TOR is promoting what they are doing. Cut scenes for quest givers? It's just a different presentaion of an old thing. It won't be long before players will demand the means to "cut it short" and just accept the quest, if they can't already.
Everything these new games are showing and promoting is nothing special. But the PR is in play. Hopefully these games won't be "piss-poor products". So players who like level grinds that zone and puppeteer you through the game can enjoy them.
Once upon a time....
A badly thought out waste of text.
I haven' played an MMO in quite sometime. When I was hot and heavy into them and trying out different MMO's I started to see a pattern to them. That pattern is " Crank them out to make cash". I'm one of the few players that stops and actually tries to read the storyline of the game. What I have been finding is that the strories are so shallow and uninteresting I simply click the button to get the quest and head off to start killing or gathering.
I would agree that it is a 50/50 mix of ADHD players and stories that totally suck.
On a side note I got hooked on Atlantica Online and some of the stories in that game are really well written. The Witch questline and the Oracle questline stories are fantastic. Problem with that game is its becoming a "nerf" everything to make them spend cash in the Cash Shop. It still has a player base but that player base is built on "who can stand the grind" and " I just spent 100 bucks this week in the cash shop" type of players. Not to mention the storylines at the top end of the game suck.
In the "forced grouping" debate people often complain that allowing solo play ruins the community and immersion, which is in large part true. The game is more immersive when you've got a solid group that wants to act like and play like a team.
But how often in MMO group do you actually get to "experience" the content? It's always "gogogo come on come on" and "dont kill those guys they drop crap" or "hurry up I want to get to the side room because that guy drops the item I want"
So I hear ya OP. I know Eve's not for everyone, but it doesn't seem to me to be filled with people who want to grind 24/7 to reach lvl XX so they can begin their endgame career. Cuz you *can't* grind out skills in eve. And there is no endgame per se -- any new player can be competitive in some limited role within a few days of starting (assuming you can find a corp that takes in low-skill pilots).
Though those people do show up, they just don't get what they're looking for. Just today someone ragequitted from Rookie Help chat because he was told that it would take years to fly a Titan. It's fixed in his mind that the "best" pilot has to fly the "biggest most powerful ship", when in truth with the right trainings, in a month you can fly a pretty badass frigate, do a lot of killing and make some good money pirating.
Now truth be told I'm sure I'll get bored with Eve before too long (like I have 3 times in the past...). It's got its own problems, but attitude wise the "right" type of player stays and the kind OP is complaining about just don't make it.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
PLayers can never be a problem. There is only good game design or bad game design. If you don't like the game, it's the fault of the developers. Always.
Really REALLY hope this is sarcasm...
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
No matter how good the story is written I still wont' read it. Because I just don't like reading. And no matter how well their written it's always some excuse to kill some boars, gather some stuff, etc etc.
I have alot of fun doing quests in single playing games, because they are accomplished by alot of full voiced animation and cut scenes.
I'm sure there's alot of people like me. Their never read a book no matter how well it's written. But they'll watch a good movie.
QFT.
Since I first logged in I think I read the first quest offered to me, and then just ignored them and hit accept every time. The text itself is usually dull and predictable.
But I can say for sure the first time I logged into the FFXIV beta, I was blown away to some degree. Putting my character in the cutscenes really made me feel like I mattered, even if it was instanced (I hate instancing).
people often say they do something for one reaso but then research finds out they do it for a different reason.
I wouldnt at all be surprised to learn that people do not play games for their need for a story. They play games for a sense of accomplishment in the numbers and (at least for me) emersion. I know its 100% why I play. If I want a story I will read a book or watch a movie, not play a game.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Or a way to prove the point that the community shares the blame?
The community and their bad input on what they want is a problem.
Only a moron would say players can't shoulder any responsibility. Game can be good but just because the players are assholes can always drive players away. Can be both or one.
When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?
I love how predictable this OP was. Just by seeing the tittle I could guess it was someone having some philosophical epiphany that PLAYERS are the bane of games, followed by tears and irrational ideas about how to fix things quick, like pour dirt on the game to soak up all the people who play like this OP does not.
All the statements about whether a game is good or bad is mere opinion, nothing more nothing less. All the claims about whether the storyline in any game is good or bad is, again, mere opinion, nothing more nothing less. The only reason many people say that WoW has a better or more immersive storyline is simply because of the "herd" effect. It's still known as the most popular mmo out there in terms of active subscriptions, so people think it must be "good". But whether WoW is "good" or not is, and always will be, mere opinion. By the way, has anyone noticed that WoW is not gaining any more subscriptions? I've definitely noticed it. It's getting to be a vintage game with a vintage graphics engine these days. I used to play WoW until recently, but I couldn't help but notice a lot of games out there that have just as good a storyline and very decent graphics in a general sense. So I gave up WoW to try them all out and was very pleasantly surprised especially with the F2P games. Ok, so they're WoW clones, so what? It's a very successful formula, and I, for one, am having a barrel of fun with them. But to repeat - all the statements, whether by a sophisticated game reviewer or by a complete novice, are still, at their core, mere opinion, nothing more nothing less. And we all know what the old saying about opiions is, lol.