I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
I tried to think of a nice way to put this, but this article is one of the most ridiculously juvenile and uninformed critiques of an industry that I've ever seen. It really is an embarassment.
In a world where all it matter is money the creativity is shot down by budget, a too original game may never see the light since sponsors just want another clone thinking that people its stupid and will pay for remakes... so its har to fund "creativity" from this economical perspective
A few people have argued against the merits of this article. I accept that some people are looking for clones as an alternative to p2p games such as WoW, but you can pretty much guarantee that many of these are casual players. I count myself in amongst this group, but after spending time playing the likes of RoM, I felt the need to return to WoW. Why? There is a strong community of players and game support that most f2p games lack. The fact is, that it isn't just about game style or interface but the other services provided by the game developer or provider.
What am I looking for in a game? I am looking for good stories and plenty of options that actually fit with the theme of the game. I don't care about genre so long as I am connecting with the game world. The game world and canon should be expanded upon over time. I want graphics to look better than a few polygons put together in 5 minutes. I want quick access to game support whenever it is required. I need a community because I play MMO's for the social aspect. I need my privacy protected as well. It is also essential that the game by nature forces out individuals or groups that would cause harm (physical, mental, technological or financial) to players.
Forget sharks with freaking laser beams - try a disgruntled seagull with a death ray.
I believe your lecture article is a bit pretentious and does nothing but feed the idea that there is no work involved even in the creation of "clone" titles. The point you make and advice are low hanging fruit anyone here could have written and, believe it or not, are already standard practice in most development houses. You ignore all the talent experience and skill that goes into the art, design and coding of them, even if they are based of contemporary titles.
Lastly, you seem to completely ignore the fact that most titles do not innovate because players do not want innovation. Sure, some here may say “I want innovation” yet will be the very first to complain that new game “B” does not have feature “X” of title “C” that has been out for a decade.
Proof that the majority (MMORPG.com is not the majority) do not necessarily want innovation or creativity is the simply fact that the most successful titles are slight improvement on predecessors, not radical advancements.
Case in point, when Turbine redefined the GUI for MMO’s with AC2, very few MMO’s to this day do NOT use it, even the ones that are bran new use it. Why? Its one part refinement, its also one part adaptable and comfortable by players and the expectance that a MMO GUI be counterparty in looks, use and function.
When you ask for innovation and creativity, you need to look at players an what they want first.
Currently, what they want is more DIKU clones. They want recognizable orcs elves and mages. They want to kill 10 rats.
I think I disagree with you, I do acualy welcome and beg for innovation and too assume you know us all and say we all or most of us complain after we get it is rediculous. IMHO no one has been innovative enough by far for my taste.
I simply ask you stop speaking for everyone and just speak for yourself and let us voice our own opinions.
Plenty of good and bad points were given. Innovation doesn't get the players money. The next grindfest with all the sparkly gear does. It's about reward. I see so many people complain about WoW and how so-in-so game is a clone of it but they don't sweat a nickle on playing it anyway. We take what we're fed. Check the F2P market lately and I call it a market with good foundation. Companies are making crazy money on these "free" games because of the shops. Bottom line... It's always about the cash and how to fleece you out of it. Players may color it twenty different ways but it's the money that counts more than the gameplay now. It made that turn a long time ago. Companies will come out with the most stupidest games imaginable and we're sucker enough to buy them because we're "hoping" it'll be the next best thing. Now, some may reply with the always prevelant, "I always check the sites or follow dev on such-in-such game" BS but honestly, you bought it like the rest of us. It's about the money, folks. Innovation, creativity, all pushed to the side to trim the fat off something corps want to make money on now. Look at the flooded market now. How many of those games out now are even really worth playing but we all gobble them up hoping we'll find whatever we're looking for. Innovation and creativity are emotional concepts. Corps don't want emotion, they want cash. Games nowadays feel like that old school spoof Progress Quest with cash shops to jump ya a couple lvls.
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
I tried to think of a nice way to put this, but this article is one of the most ridiculously juvenile and uninformed critiques of an industry that I've ever seen. It really is an embarassment.
I didn't read the article as a serious critique of the industry. It was more a general observation by someone who probably has tried some or many of the games we all talk about here. Their opinion is as valid to me as any professional tech or developer. The article, to me, was more a question of inspiration on both the developers and the player's part, and how creative impulses can come from anywhere, including discussions on message boards like this one.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Hmmm? What? MMOs? Oh, I gave up on those a while back.
Maybe Blizzard's next one will be nice, you know, in five years when they finally release it.
Maybe.
More likely, though, it will come out, completely dominate the market, and then go cash-shop + pay for the game + pay per month... hell, WoW's doing it right now, the whole double/triple dip into your wallet.
But whatever, not like I have to play their terrible game anyways... not until they add some sandboxish things into WoW will I step near it again.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
I mean if you have seen any concept drawings from any run of the mill MMO, then you surely should realise that those artists are way past that stage? They know what they are doing. If you let those artists come up with whatever they can think of they will easily amaze even the writer of this article.
This doesnt mean of course that a new MMO will have innovative gamedesign. That just depends on what they think that the market demands. If a studios comes up with a clone its on purpose, not because they cant do anything different.
Apart from that I agree with MrBloodworth. There are a lot of games that show innovation and creativity. It just seems that the writer didnt know of their existance.
I don't know, my goal is to keep the players imput out of my design concept.
F#(K the player.. if they don't like it they can go play something else. What truely upsets me as a player is the fact that I find alot of great ideas and concepts, that are changed or just dumbed down to fit the masses.
AoC just to state a game change... Was the idea that if you tried SpellFocusing, and failed at it.. (thats pushed the process to far) you would be sent to hell and have to do a 10-15 minute run to fight your way from hell. This was changed because people didn't like the idea of being pulled from a RAID. Well.. if you don't want to get pulled from the raid, don't be so damned stupid and push your spell that far. Know your limitations.
Its things like this, many diffrent ideas that I think would aid to games, that are removed, changed or just dumbed down because people cry so much about it.
Also, another thing about following the forums, is that forums are not the voices of your players. It's just the voices of your loudest players. If you fold to the few vocal you will lose the masses of the unheard.
But yes, as long as greed runs your company and this industry, i do believe that many many games will be cloned of what makes money.
And yes you do have to point your fingers at the players as well. It is them that truely bring down the MMO industry.
Don't worrie, the time will come where someone has the balls to tell the players that they can "Kiss MY Ass" and "I make this game for me, I'm just inviting you to play it."
The goal is 100,000 people willing to pay $15.00/month.
Will you be able to buy your own private jet, and a 15 mill dollar boat with a 10 mill dollar house. NO.. but damnit you wont starve.
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
The OP has three years MMO development experience. How many do you have?
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
She didn't mention artists at all. She's talking about designers. In MMO development, designers decide what monsters will exist in the world, and THEN artists do concepts.
The article advocates broadening your personal horizons if you have a creative design role. Trying new things to inspire new ideas. Trying new things sounds like a good idea to me.
The lack of reading comprehension on these forums, as usual, is astonishing.
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
She didn't mention artists at all. She's talking about designers. In MMO development, designers decide what monsters will exist in the world, and THEN artists do concepts.
The article advocates broadening your personal horizons if you have a creative design role. Trying new things to inspire new ideas. Trying new things sounds like a good idea to me.
The lack of reading comprehension on these forums, as usual, is astonishing.
Reading -5
I guess if you are that upset over the reading comprehension on these forums then you'll stop writing articles for money since no one reads them properly?
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
The OP has three years MMO development experience. How many do you have?
ZING!
Welcome to the dubious wonders of MMORPG article forum responses, Angie. To get acclimatized I'd recommend you also take a field trip to the zoo. The monkey house would probably give you the best idea of what kind of behavior you can expect.
As to the article, I quite liked it. I would disagree that the biggest problem in MMOs today is lack of creativity in their creative staff (with the exception of the excremental company Cryptic). The problem is higher up the food chain in management. I feel that creativity is being stifled the most by the Design Directors, Executive Producers and the Resource and Accounting Nazis.
It is the same problem the film and music industries have been facing for years. There is no lack of creative talent, just a lack of interest in the money men to finance anything but a sure thing.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Hmmm I'm not too sure about this article as I simply don't believe that creativity is lacking as much as some may have you believe. For one when I do see creativity used in mmo's we the community are the first to shoot it down and why? Because creativity doesn't automatically make a good game/feature. In a manner of speaking what Cryptic did with the design of the STO game world can be considered "creative" but we as a community roundly dismiss it (myself included) and complain that we want those same huge (mostly empty) expanses we are used to in games like EVE,SWG JTL, etc..
When it comes to the themes we are offered in gaming again I can't rally for creativity because then we begin to get mmo's that are pirate and zombie themed and I know I can't speak for everyone but I'd rather see a thousand hack and slash mmo's than half as many mmo's filled with Disney animals and the like. I don't begrudge the development of any title as in ways it only opens the genre up more but I don't really have much interest in playing things just because they are "different" from what I'm used to.
I think quite a few games are creative but the for the devs who adopt this line of thinking "buyer beware" if your nifty new feature doesn't catch on we the community will roast you for it and hence sensibly less and less devs are willing to take up the call.
I say to the devs keep on copying each other but for goodness sakes copy the things that make the "good games" good, far too often the copying seems to get lost in translation. Whether you think people read the quests or not make sure they are engaging (even if they just amount to "kill 10 rats") give your gamers an expansive world that they can marvel in just travelling, offer them alternate means of game play crafting,diplomacy, roleplay. these are generally the staple of good stable games with a healthy community.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
She didn't mention artists at all. She's talking about designers. In MMO development, designers decide what monsters will exist in the world, and THEN artists do concepts.
The article advocates broadening your personal horizons if you have a creative design role. Trying new things to inspire new ideas. Trying new things sounds like a good idea to me.
The lack of reading comprehension on these forums, as usual, is astonishing.
Reading -5
Semantics. Pure, semantics.
Art, concept, design are all creative design roles treating as if they happen alone and are all at the whim of a "Desinger" is dishonist at best, ingorant at worst.. Again, the article atempts to dismiss the work, skill and creativity in make even what some would consider a "clone" game.Then goes on to sugest things that most people in the above roles allready do. Some, are even house wide requirements.
Here is the reall issue, if its not the 5 big houses, it dosn't count. The irony is, the OP, and many desingers, and even players have a servear case of blinders on.
But it can't be that, its the lack of creativity, right?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
The OP has three years MMO development experience. How many do you have?
Does it matter? Clearly none of that time or experiences was used in this article. What role exactly did she have in those 3 years?
Meanwhile, those of us in the industry and in a creative role, call shenanigans. Now, I’m sure she’s very talented and knows her stuff where she knows it, however I disagree with her opinion, her stance, and her solutions. I also disagree with you heralding designers are the kings of the hill.
System designers are fine and dandy, game designers are nifty, but those people are no solo rock star heroes willing dragoon of storms to appear from the mists with out tempering from other departments, such as art, sound, or tech.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Though her points are all valid, I also see why some people view it as a bit pretentious / condescending. All the points she made not only apply to designers, but all creative professionals. While they are all good tips for someone trying to be more creative, or is in a creative slump, they aren't anything that an artist doesn't already know and practice.
Believe it or not, the zoo is actually not as ridiculous as it sounds. Whenever I'm trying to design a creature, I'm basically taking parts of different animals and combining them to create something new. Almost every artist I know does her own form of the same, some adding in inspiration from the mechanical / plantlife as well. However I don't think this article really gets to the heart of what's draining creativity from MMOs. It's really quite simple.
1) Being creative / overly innovative in this genre has not paid off for some time. So far every game to try and innovate has tanked, while it's competition has picked up the few good ideas and made it their own. Not a very good business model.
2) While players are very vocal about wanting innovative games, few will actually support them. These are MMOs, and need much more support than single player games to stay alive.
- Many players shout for innovation, but basically only want their 'own game' without having to go through the trouble of designing it. As soon as there's a feature they don't like, they forsake any good qualities, because they can't get over the fact that their character portrait is a square, or that they have to press the R key to target something.
I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the copy-cat syndrome we see in so many AAA MMO's has anything to do with a lack of creativity among designers. I don't work in the Entertainment vertical...but working in the Tech industry and having first hand experience with the development process, I can tell you that very few designers I know are afforded much lattitude or freedom of in thier designs.... unless they happen to be working for themselves. Typicaly most designers are designing to a particular mandate handed down to them from the executives who run the company. They are told what experience they are supposed to deliver and often provided with some very specific details about how they are supposed to deliver.... including often some very bizzare requirements ( like 50% of this screen must be sky blue..because some exec took a psych class in college and determined that blue was "soothing")... and they do thier best to deliver designs that meet the mandates thier given (or they end up unemployed)...faced with those constraints, there is only so much innovation that a designer CAN put into thier design.
The system works decently when the executives setting the mandates are experienced and knowledgeable in the subject matter of the product they are producing. Unfortunately that's actualy quite rare....and a remarkable number of executives have very little personal experience or understanding of the products that they are selling or what makes them popular with thier intended audiences. That doesn't however stop them from making design mandates to thier designers.... usualy these are based upon something they read (which may or may not apply to thier particular product) and almost always has something to do with the latest industry "buzzword" (whether or not they understand any of the real concepts behind the buzzword)...or they hire a marketing/business consultant to tell them what mandates they should give (who may or may not have any more knowledge/experience of the product then the executive....but has alot of expereience at convincing executives/owners that they do).... or most often they simply mandate you to copy another company who's product is successfull without understanding much of the details of WHY that product might be successfull. They might add in something to the effect of "but don't make it LOOK like we are copying them" to satisfy the legal/pr folks.
Furthermore business executives tend to be horribly risk averse..... which means that coming to them with anything innovative is a really hard sell...especialy if they lack the personal knowledge/experience to understand why that particular innovation might be likely to work. So pretty much you end up with some iteration of something that has already been done by 50 other companies.
This scenerio seems painfully evident in the MMO genre.... as it's pretty clear that very few of the decision makers sitting in the corner offices of the big companies are gamers themselves, have much understanding of gamers, or have much insight into what makes games fun. That becomes pretty obvious in alot of the interviews, sound-bytes they give.I'm pretty sure that most of the actual designers/developers in MMO companies have alots of creativity and innovation and would probably make thier designs very different from the ones thier companies impliment...if they were free to do so... in most cases they simply aren't.
The best executives are ones who have strong personal knowledge and experience of the products they sell, the second best ones don't but are aware of thier own limitations and allow the people with that knowledge (the designers) the freedom to use it unhindered..... unfortunately most executives at big companies don't fit into either of those categories.
What you end up with is the equivalent of some-one telling you how to design a surf-board when they..... A) Have never surfed themselves, Don't talk to or socialize with surfers, C) Don't understand the appeal of surfing or why some-one would want to surf. Substitute games for surfing and you have todays MMO industry in a nutshell (at least for the big companies).
Hmmm I'm not too sure about this article as I simply don't believe that creativity is lacking as much as some may have you believe. For one when I do see creativity used in mmo's we the community are the first to shoot it down and why? Because creativity doesn't automatically make a good game/feature. In a manner of speaking what Cryptic did with the design of the STO game world can be considered "creative" but we as a community roundly dismiss it (myself included) and complain that we want those same huge (mostly empty) expanses we are used to in games like EVE,SWG JTL, etc..
When it comes to the themes we are offered in gaming again I can't rally for creativity because then we begin to get mmo's that are pirate and zombie themed and I know I can't speak for everyone but I'd rather see a thousand hack and slash mmo's than half as many mmo's filled with Disney animals and the like. I don't begrudge the development of any title as in ways it only opens the genre up more but I don't really have much interest in playing things just because they are "different" from what I'm used to.
I think quite a few games are creative but the for the devs who adopt this line of thinking "buyer beware" if your nifty new feature doesn't catch on we the community will roast you for it and hence sensibly less and less devs are willing to take up the call.
I say to the devs keep on copying each other but for goodness sakes copy the things that make the "good games" good, far too often the copying seems to get lost in translation. Whether you think people read the quests or not make sure they are engaging (even if they just amount to "kill 10 rats") give your gamers an expansive world that they can marvel in just travelling, offer them alternate means of game play crafting,diplomacy, roleplay. these are generally the staple of good stable games with a healthy community.
If you have a big corperation and want to make mmo's, make a mmo division and get some good telent and then make sure you can fund them for 4-7 years. Other wise don't waste your time on mmo's. Let your division do what it needs to do to develope a creative game and don't force deadlines down their throats like SOE does.
I think creativity has it's down side. Like jaxsundane basically said, a new feature may not actually be fun or may not be implemented quite right to make it a fun part of the game. So the people holding the cash need plenty of cash for the time needed, and need to find those people that are really good at turning new features into fun features when testing indicates the feature is not quite living up to what was expected of it.
The first thing that needs to go are deadlines. You can have goals for segments of the design phase but to say: "hey we don't care whether it's fun or not we need to release this on time" is bloody suicide for an mmo. I'm looking at you SOE!
Some have to learn that the hard way though.
I think if you really are going for fun you need to have good testing practices in place. So yes create creative features but make sure they bring the intended effect to your game before you release it. Spending time to make a feature fun pays for it self.
Creativity does come at a price but if you have the money and think you have the right talent then don't cut the process short just before the game is fun for the sake of money. Again SOE is a bad example in this area. Creativity and the time it takes to make a game fun pays for itself. Just ask blizzard. I don't care if the game needs to change completely as long it is going to make the game fun and if you have the cash and talent you might as well do it because a game that flops isn't going to make you money.
Coming up with ideas is easier when the environment is more inspiring that is true. And so catering to this is a good plan for mmo developers. But that is half the process.
Also don't be afraid to take ideas that are good from your community. A creative person should be able to shape an idea to work in a relevant way. If you can't make it happen in the current game put in a database for the next game brain storm.
One other point mentioned is to grab features from other games and mold them to your game. This is fine. It is a type of creativity. Change the setting to something other than fantasy and you got my attention. Just make it fun and interesting some how.
One thing that is lacking is a reward system that rewards everyone in a group based on their contribution. What makes no sense to me is a reward system that encourages solo play. I don't want to participate in a raid type senario where I only get some reputation. I want enough reward to compensate me for my time or at least my repairs every time I participate. I want to be rewarded for the thing I chose to do in your game. That adds to the fun.
As a side note I have yet to see an mmo that has hardcore and softcore pvp area's on the same server. Area's where you lose everything can be complemented by area's where all you have to worry about is a repair cost. I would like to see a game that makes that work in a fun way.
Originally posted by Mrbloodworth Your eyeys are shut mis webb . . . They want recognizable orcs elves and mages. They want to kill 10 rats.
WRONG!
Her eyes just aren't looking in the same direction as seemingly everyone else. Just because you're staring at the back of her head doesn't mean she isn't still looking forward, it just means that she's got the good sense to look around; and encourages others to do the same. That's how many wondrous things have been discovered or invented
Also, define "they" for me . . . no don't, that's a waste of time. I think 'mis webb' is dead-on. MMORPG's lack originality and someone out there needs to take a chance and redesign the genre. I think the article contains many wonderful suggestions and although they may or may not be standard practice, one way or another . . . something isn't getting done.
In your own words you state that AC2 made a HUGE change (I believe that was the intention of your double-negative) even though it is no longer in the playing field. Succeed, fail, land in the middle . . . but give originality a chance. Although it would be a charity endeavor to make a game that "the masses" won't likely leave WoW or Farmville for, it would be a noble endeavor just the same and there IS a audience out there waiting for the next big thing.
I don't want clones and I don't want to ALWAYS see Orcs, Elves and Goblins. Her suggestions weren't a lonely cry in the dark either, I found her statements a wonderful, inspiring and helpful set of hints for anyone needing a bit of creative inspiration. Personally, I've been hoping to see more articles along these lines. I think it's just this sort of expression of interest in ingenuity that can make all the difference in the world.
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
The OP has three years MMO development experience. How many do you have?
ZING!
Welcome to the dubious wonders of MMORPG article forum responses, Angie. To get acclimatized I'd recommend you also take a field trip to the zoo. The monkey house would probably give you the best idea of what kind of behavior you can expect.
I lol'd
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
It may be very straight-forward like GrumpyMel2 wrote. But to my experience in various "creative places" it is often more subtle. Basically, most of the time in creative busines you need to sell your ideas to other people, your docent, your boss, your colleague, the client etc.
What happens now works more like a subtle force than abruptly, a kind of evolutionary process.
The idea is old, tested and works somewhat: it is approved out of the gate. You save time, energy, nerves. You will sleep at night and you won't get an ulcer.
The idea is fresh: it will be questioned, tested, questioned again on every step. You cannot even show it, because to convince anyone you may need resources you don't have. It's an uphill battle, even if they like the idea.
While most creative people will be passionate about their ideas and will try their best to convince and persuade others, you can't do that all the time. The old, proven, worn-out but working ideas have an evolutionary advantage. You may run a few ideas home, but the tendency in any creative endeavor is against innovation, because of this built-in mechanism.
I first observed this in Art School, where most students would soon adapt and min/max. They would create works of art that are 99% proven and working. They chose books as a form very often where they could rely on a ton of established standards. They would innovate a little bit on the content side and would also do one or two highly visible changes, like weaving a red ribbon into some books pages (in a way that they could pull a fancy explanation that would also pretend that it has something to do with the contents).
The jury would totally focus on the 1% high visible change, totally overlook all the myriads of typographical standards, from the fonts they used to the paper and general way books typically work. Someone who would do something different, like fancy folding technique would receive more scrutiny and could possibly fail more likely, because it's tested and questioned again and again and again.
I don't know if a word for this exist, but I'd term it creative conservatism.
Comments
I see the original poster ridiculing the development process, based on what she's "heard from friends". Is this for real? Do you have any professional work experience in ANY field, let alone technology or specifically video game development. Do you have any idea WHY they have these "un-creative" processes in place?
I tried to think of a nice way to put this, but this article is one of the most ridiculously juvenile and uninformed critiques of an industry that I've ever seen. It really is an embarassment.
In a world where all it matter is money the creativity is shot down by budget, a too original game may never see the light since sponsors just want another clone thinking that people its stupid and will pay for remakes... so its har to fund "creativity" from this economical perspective
If I needed creativity I'd rather read books, like those by Asimov or Harrison.
IZI MODO?! Ha-ha-ha!
A few people have argued against the merits of this article. I accept that some people are looking for clones as an alternative to p2p games such as WoW, but you can pretty much guarantee that many of these are casual players. I count myself in amongst this group, but after spending time playing the likes of RoM, I felt the need to return to WoW. Why? There is a strong community of players and game support that most f2p games lack. The fact is, that it isn't just about game style or interface but the other services provided by the game developer or provider.
What am I looking for in a game? I am looking for good stories and plenty of options that actually fit with the theme of the game. I don't care about genre so long as I am connecting with the game world. The game world and canon should be expanded upon over time. I want graphics to look better than a few polygons put together in 5 minutes. I want quick access to game support whenever it is required. I need a community because I play MMO's for the social aspect. I need my privacy protected as well. It is also essential that the game by nature forces out individuals or groups that would cause harm (physical, mental, technological or financial) to players.
Forget sharks with freaking laser beams - try a disgruntled seagull with a death ray.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, write articles about how everyone else sucks at their jobs...
Plenty of good and bad points were given. Innovation doesn't get the players money. The next grindfest with all the sparkly gear does. It's about reward. I see so many people complain about WoW and how so-in-so game is a clone of it but they don't sweat a nickle on playing it anyway. We take what we're fed. Check the F2P market lately and I call it a market with good foundation. Companies are making crazy money on these "free" games because of the shops. Bottom line... It's always about the cash and how to fleece you out of it. Players may color it twenty different ways but it's the money that counts more than the gameplay now. It made that turn a long time ago. Companies will come out with the most stupidest games imaginable and we're sucker enough to buy them because we're "hoping" it'll be the next best thing. Now, some may reply with the always prevelant, "I always check the sites or follow dev on such-in-such game" BS but honestly, you bought it like the rest of us. It's about the money, folks. Innovation, creativity, all pushed to the side to trim the fat off something corps want to make money on now. Look at the flooded market now. How many of those games out now are even really worth playing but we all gobble them up hoping we'll find whatever we're looking for. Innovation and creativity are emotional concepts. Corps don't want emotion, they want cash. Games nowadays feel like that old school spoof Progress Quest with cash shops to jump ya a couple lvls.
I didn't read the article as a serious critique of the industry. It was more a general observation by someone who probably has tried some or many of the games we all talk about here. Their opinion is as valid to me as any professional tech or developer. The article, to me, was more a question of inspiration on both the developers and the player's part, and how creative impulses can come from anywhere, including discussions on message boards like this one.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Hmmm? What? MMOs? Oh, I gave up on those a while back.
Maybe Blizzard's next one will be nice, you know, in five years when they finally release it.
Maybe.
More likely, though, it will come out, completely dominate the market, and then go cash-shop + pay for the game + pay per month... hell, WoW's doing it right now, the whole double/triple dip into your wallet.
But whatever, not like I have to play their terrible game anyways... not until they add some sandboxish things into WoW will I step near it again.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Its funny how she advises those talented artists to visit a zoo when they need inspiration for new monsters. So they can see how a bear moves etc. Is it just me, or is that quite condescending attitude coming from some blogger?
I mean if you have seen any concept drawings from any run of the mill MMO, then you surely should realise that those artists are way past that stage? They know what they are doing. If you let those artists come up with whatever they can think of they will easily amaze even the writer of this article.
This doesnt mean of course that a new MMO will have innovative gamedesign. That just depends on what they think that the market demands. If a studios comes up with a clone its on purpose, not because they cant do anything different.
Apart from that I agree with MrBloodworth. There are a lot of games that show innovation and creativity. It just seems that the writer didnt know of their existance.
People R Stupid
I don't know, my goal is to keep the players imput out of my design concept.
F#(K the player.. if they don't like it they can go play something else. What truely upsets me as a player is the fact that I find alot of great ideas and concepts, that are changed or just dumbed down to fit the masses.
AoC just to state a game change... Was the idea that if you tried SpellFocusing, and failed at it.. (thats pushed the process to far) you would be sent to hell and have to do a 10-15 minute run to fight your way from hell. This was changed because people didn't like the idea of being pulled from a RAID. Well.. if you don't want to get pulled from the raid, don't be so damned stupid and push your spell that far. Know your limitations.
Its things like this, many diffrent ideas that I think would aid to games, that are removed, changed or just dumbed down because people cry so much about it.
Also, another thing about following the forums, is that forums are not the voices of your players. It's just the voices of your loudest players. If you fold to the few vocal you will lose the masses of the unheard.
But yes, as long as greed runs your company and this industry, i do believe that many many games will be cloned of what makes money.
And yes you do have to point your fingers at the players as well. It is them that truely bring down the MMO industry.
Don't worrie, the time will come where someone has the balls to tell the players that they can "Kiss MY Ass" and "I make this game for me, I'm just inviting you to play it."
The goal is 100,000 people willing to pay $15.00/month.
Will you be able to buy your own private jet, and a 15 mill dollar boat with a 10 mill dollar house. NO.. but damnit you wont starve.
The OP has three years MMO development experience. How many do you have?
She didn't mention artists at all. She's talking about designers. In MMO development, designers decide what monsters will exist in the world, and THEN artists do concepts.
The article advocates broadening your personal horizons if you have a creative design role. Trying new things to inspire new ideas. Trying new things sounds like a good idea to me.
The lack of reading comprehension on these forums, as usual, is astonishing.
Reading -5
I guess if you are that upset over the reading comprehension on these forums then you'll stop writing articles for money since no one reads them properly?
ZING!
Welcome to the dubious wonders of MMORPG article forum responses, Angie. To get acclimatized I'd recommend you also take a field trip to the zoo. The monkey house would probably give you the best idea of what kind of behavior you can expect.
As to the article, I quite liked it. I would disagree that the biggest problem in MMOs today is lack of creativity in their creative staff (with the exception of the excremental company Cryptic). The problem is higher up the food chain in management. I feel that creativity is being stifled the most by the Design Directors, Executive Producers and the Resource and Accounting Nazis.
It is the same problem the film and music industries have been facing for years. There is no lack of creative talent, just a lack of interest in the money men to finance anything but a sure thing.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Hmmm I'm not too sure about this article as I simply don't believe that creativity is lacking as much as some may have you believe. For one when I do see creativity used in mmo's we the community are the first to shoot it down and why? Because creativity doesn't automatically make a good game/feature. In a manner of speaking what Cryptic did with the design of the STO game world can be considered "creative" but we as a community roundly dismiss it (myself included) and complain that we want those same huge (mostly empty) expanses we are used to in games like EVE,SWG JTL, etc..
When it comes to the themes we are offered in gaming again I can't rally for creativity because then we begin to get mmo's that are pirate and zombie themed and I know I can't speak for everyone but I'd rather see a thousand hack and slash mmo's than half as many mmo's filled with Disney animals and the like. I don't begrudge the development of any title as in ways it only opens the genre up more but I don't really have much interest in playing things just because they are "different" from what I'm used to.
I think quite a few games are creative but the for the devs who adopt this line of thinking "buyer beware" if your nifty new feature doesn't catch on we the community will roast you for it and hence sensibly less and less devs are willing to take up the call.
I say to the devs keep on copying each other but for goodness sakes copy the things that make the "good games" good, far too often the copying seems to get lost in translation. Whether you think people read the quests or not make sure they are engaging (even if they just amount to "kill 10 rats") give your gamers an expansive world that they can marvel in just travelling, offer them alternate means of game play crafting,diplomacy, roleplay. these are generally the staple of good stable games with a healthy community.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Semantics. Pure, semantics.
Art, concept, design are all creative design roles treating as if they happen alone and are all at the whim of a "Desinger" is dishonist at best, ingorant at worst.. Again, the article atempts to dismiss the work, skill and creativity in make even what some would consider a "clone" game.Then goes on to sugest things that most people in the above roles allready do. Some, are even house wide requirements.
Here is the reall issue, if its not the 5 big houses, it dosn't count. The irony is, the OP, and many desingers, and even players have a servear case of blinders on.
But it can't be that, its the lack of creativity, right?
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Does it matter? Clearly none of that time or experiences was used in this article. What role exactly did she have in those 3 years?
Ah, a QA, Angela Webb Software Tester
Meanwhile, those of us in the industry and in a creative role, call shenanigans. Now, I’m sure she’s very talented and knows her stuff where she knows it, however I disagree with her opinion, her stance, and her solutions. I also disagree with you heralding designers are the kings of the hill.
System designers are fine and dandy, game designers are nifty, but those people are no solo rock star heroes willing dragoon of storms to appear from the mists with out tempering from other departments, such as art, sound, or tech.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Though her points are all valid, I also see why some people view it as a bit pretentious / condescending. All the points she made not only apply to designers, but all creative professionals. While they are all good tips for someone trying to be more creative, or is in a creative slump, they aren't anything that an artist doesn't already know and practice.
Believe it or not, the zoo is actually not as ridiculous as it sounds. Whenever I'm trying to design a creature, I'm basically taking parts of different animals and combining them to create something new. Almost every artist I know does her own form of the same, some adding in inspiration from the mechanical / plantlife as well. However I don't think this article really gets to the heart of what's draining creativity from MMOs. It's really quite simple.
1) Being creative / overly innovative in this genre has not paid off for some time. So far every game to try and innovate has tanked, while it's competition has picked up the few good ideas and made it their own. Not a very good business model.
2) While players are very vocal about wanting innovative games, few will actually support them. These are MMOs, and need much more support than single player games to stay alive.
- Many players shout for innovation, but basically only want their 'own game' without having to go through the trouble of designing it. As soon as there's a feature they don't like, they forsake any good qualities, because they can't get over the fact that their character portrait is a square, or that they have to press the R key to target something.
Angie,
I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the copy-cat syndrome we see in so many AAA MMO's has anything to do with a lack of creativity among designers. I don't work in the Entertainment vertical...but working in the Tech industry and having first hand experience with the development process, I can tell you that very few designers I know are afforded much lattitude or freedom of in thier designs.... unless they happen to be working for themselves. Typicaly most designers are designing to a particular mandate handed down to them from the executives who run the company. They are told what experience they are supposed to deliver and often provided with some very specific details about how they are supposed to deliver.... including often some very bizzare requirements ( like 50% of this screen must be sky blue..because some exec took a psych class in college and determined that blue was "soothing")... and they do thier best to deliver designs that meet the mandates thier given (or they end up unemployed)...faced with those constraints, there is only so much innovation that a designer CAN put into thier design.
The system works decently when the executives setting the mandates are experienced and knowledgeable in the subject matter of the product they are producing. Unfortunately that's actualy quite rare....and a remarkable number of executives have very little personal experience or understanding of the products that they are selling or what makes them popular with thier intended audiences. That doesn't however stop them from making design mandates to thier designers.... usualy these are based upon something they read (which may or may not apply to thier particular product) and almost always has something to do with the latest industry "buzzword" (whether or not they understand any of the real concepts behind the buzzword)...or they hire a marketing/business consultant to tell them what mandates they should give (who may or may not have any more knowledge/experience of the product then the executive....but has alot of expereience at convincing executives/owners that they do).... or most often they simply mandate you to copy another company who's product is successfull without understanding much of the details of WHY that product might be successfull. They might add in something to the effect of "but don't make it LOOK like we are copying them" to satisfy the legal/pr folks.
Furthermore business executives tend to be horribly risk averse..... which means that coming to them with anything innovative is a really hard sell...especialy if they lack the personal knowledge/experience to understand why that particular innovation might be likely to work. So pretty much you end up with some iteration of something that has already been done by 50 other companies.
This scenerio seems painfully evident in the MMO genre.... as it's pretty clear that very few of the decision makers sitting in the corner offices of the big companies are gamers themselves, have much understanding of gamers, or have much insight into what makes games fun. That becomes pretty obvious in alot of the interviews, sound-bytes they give.I'm pretty sure that most of the actual designers/developers in MMO companies have alots of creativity and innovation and would probably make thier designs very different from the ones thier companies impliment...if they were free to do so... in most cases they simply aren't.
The best executives are ones who have strong personal knowledge and experience of the products they sell, the second best ones don't but are aware of thier own limitations and allow the people with that knowledge (the designers) the freedom to use it unhindered..... unfortunately most executives at big companies don't fit into either of those categories.
What you end up with is the equivalent of some-one telling you how to design a surf-board when they..... A) Have never surfed themselves,
Don't talk to or socialize with surfers, C) Don't understand the appeal of surfing or why some-one would want to surf. Substitute games for surfing and you have todays MMO industry in a nutshell (at least for the big companies).
Originally posted by jaxsundane
Hmmm I'm not too sure about this article as I simply don't believe that creativity is lacking as much as some may have you believe. For one when I do see creativity used in mmo's we the community are the first to shoot it down and why? Because creativity doesn't automatically make a good game/feature. In a manner of speaking what Cryptic did with the design of the STO game world can be considered "creative" but we as a community roundly dismiss it (myself included) and complain that we want those same huge (mostly empty) expanses we are used to in games like EVE,SWG JTL, etc..
When it comes to the themes we are offered in gaming again I can't rally for creativity because then we begin to get mmo's that are pirate and zombie themed and I know I can't speak for everyone but I'd rather see a thousand hack and slash mmo's than half as many mmo's filled with Disney animals and the like. I don't begrudge the development of any title as in ways it only opens the genre up more but I don't really have much interest in playing things just because they are "different" from what I'm used to.
I think quite a few games are creative but the for the devs who adopt this line of thinking "buyer beware" if your nifty new feature doesn't catch on we the community will roast you for it and hence sensibly less and less devs are willing to take up the call.
I say to the devs keep on copying each other but for goodness sakes copy the things that make the "good games" good, far too often the copying seems to get lost in translation. Whether you think people read the quests or not make sure they are engaging (even if they just amount to "kill 10 rats") give your gamers an expansive world that they can marvel in just travelling, offer them alternate means of game play crafting,diplomacy, roleplay. these are generally the staple of good stable games with a healthy community.
If you have a big corperation and want to make mmo's, make a mmo division and get some good telent and then make sure you can fund them for 4-7 years. Other wise don't waste your time on mmo's. Let your division do what it needs to do to develope a creative game and don't force deadlines down their throats like SOE does.
I think creativity has it's down side. Like jaxsundane basically said, a new feature may not actually be fun or may not be implemented quite right to make it a fun part of the game. So the people holding the cash need plenty of cash for the time needed, and need to find those people that are really good at turning new features into fun features when testing indicates the feature is not quite living up to what was expected of it.
The first thing that needs to go are deadlines. You can have goals for segments of the design phase but to say: "hey we don't care whether it's fun or not we need to release this on time" is bloody suicide for an mmo. I'm looking at you SOE!
Some have to learn that the hard way though.
I think if you really are going for fun you need to have good testing practices in place. So yes create creative features but make sure they bring the intended effect to your game before you release it. Spending time to make a feature fun pays for it self.
Creativity does come at a price but if you have the money and think you have the right talent then don't cut the process short just before the game is fun for the sake of money. Again SOE is a bad example in this area. Creativity and the time it takes to make a game fun pays for itself. Just ask blizzard. I don't care if the game needs to change completely as long it is going to make the game fun and if you have the cash and talent you might as well do it because a game that flops isn't going to make you money.
Coming up with ideas is easier when the environment is more inspiring that is true. And so catering to this is a good plan for mmo developers. But that is half the process.
Also don't be afraid to take ideas that are good from your community. A creative person should be able to shape an idea to work in a relevant way. If you can't make it happen in the current game put in a database for the next game brain storm.
One other point mentioned is to grab features from other games and mold them to your game. This is fine. It is a type of creativity. Change the setting to something other than fantasy and you got my attention. Just make it fun and interesting some how.
One thing that is lacking is a reward system that rewards everyone in a group based on their contribution. What makes no sense to me is a reward system that encourages solo play. I don't want to participate in a raid type senario where I only get some reputation. I want enough reward to compensate me for my time or at least my repairs every time I participate. I want to be rewarded for the thing I chose to do in your game. That adds to the fun.
As a side note I have yet to see an mmo that has hardcore and softcore pvp area's on the same server. Area's where you lose everything can be complemented by area's where all you have to worry about is a repair cost. I would like to see a game that makes that work in a fun way.
we have little innovation in mmos because players are willing to pay money for the same old garbage.
http://hardballgaming.blogspot.com/
WRONG!
Her eyes just aren't looking in the same direction as seemingly everyone else. Just because you're staring at the back of her head doesn't mean she isn't still looking forward, it just means that she's got the good sense to look around; and encourages others to do the same. That's how many wondrous things have been discovered or invented
Also, define "they" for me . . . no don't, that's a waste of time. I think 'mis webb' is dead-on. MMORPG's lack originality and someone out there needs to take a chance and redesign the genre. I think the article contains many wonderful suggestions and although they may or may not be standard practice, one way or another . . . something isn't getting done.
In your own words you state that AC2 made a HUGE change (I believe that was the intention of your double-negative) even though it is no longer in the playing field. Succeed, fail, land in the middle . . . but give originality a chance. Although it would be a charity endeavor to make a game that "the masses" won't likely leave WoW or Farmville for, it would be a noble endeavor just the same and there IS a audience out there waiting for the next big thing.
I don't want clones and I don't want to ALWAYS see Orcs, Elves and Goblins. Her suggestions weren't a lonely cry in the dark either, I found her statements a wonderful, inspiring and helpful set of hints for anyone needing a bit of creative inspiration. Personally, I've been hoping to see more articles along these lines. I think it's just this sort of expression of interest in ingenuity that can make all the difference in the world.
I lol'd
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
It may be very straight-forward like GrumpyMel2 wrote. But to my experience in various "creative places" it is often more subtle. Basically, most of the time in creative busines you need to sell your ideas to other people, your docent, your boss, your colleague, the client etc.
What happens now works more like a subtle force than abruptly, a kind of evolutionary process.
The idea is old, tested and works somewhat: it is approved out of the gate. You save time, energy, nerves. You will sleep at night and you won't get an ulcer.
The idea is fresh: it will be questioned, tested, questioned again on every step. You cannot even show it, because to convince anyone you may need resources you don't have. It's an uphill battle, even if they like the idea.
While most creative people will be passionate about their ideas and will try their best to convince and persuade others, you can't do that all the time. The old, proven, worn-out but working ideas have an evolutionary advantage. You may run a few ideas home, but the tendency in any creative endeavor is against innovation, because of this built-in mechanism.
I first observed this in Art School, where most students would soon adapt and min/max. They would create works of art that are 99% proven and working. They chose books as a form very often where they could rely on a ton of established standards. They would innovate a little bit on the content side and would also do one or two highly visible changes, like weaving a red ribbon into some books pages (in a way that they could pull a fancy explanation that would also pretend that it has something to do with the contents).
The jury would totally focus on the 1% high visible change, totally overlook all the myriads of typographical standards, from the fonts they used to the paper and general way books typically work. Someone who would do something different, like fancy folding technique would receive more scrutiny and could possibly fail more likely, because it's tested and questioned again and again and again.
I don't know if a word for this exist, but I'd term it creative conservatism.