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Looking for Strategy and not grind...
bletsonius
Member UncommonPosts: 53
My name is John, I have been a player since the age of 8, when my father bought his first computer and I remember him playing Civilization and Railroad Tycoon. I was no genius, I had no idea what the word “militia” meant but still every time I found the computer unoccupied I would storm to play a game of civilization or any of the old Apogee games. I was playing wow for 2 years and have been playing DotA for five or six, I can’t really tell, and now its clone-improvement Heroes of Newerth.
I want to talk about what, in my humble opinion, is the major flaw in all mmos; interesting, challenging, innovative gameplay. “So what?”, you will say, “just another poster who says the same things that all new game developers say that they will include in their release. Maybe.
I was playing Warhammer online for one year and now I started it again, and truthfully I find it extremely boring. It’s not the typical instance/raid farming game, no, it is the typical PvP farming game. You don’t farm creeps, you farm players, but again it’s the same farming over and over again, without any hint of strategy in your killings, just stay behind (as a bright wizard – glass cannon) and press the buttons on the player that the group is focusing.
On the exact opposite side, we have the DotA style games, where:
There are no specific roles, in one game you can be the tank, in the other game the support, and even during one game you can change your role.
Strategy and team play is the win or loose factor by 100%, you can turn the tide even if you focus your team for 10 minutes and do a proper gang.
You play and enjoy the game from the first minute. Ok, maybe after 5 minutes because you need to join/create a game. But from that moment on, you enjoy the full length of the game. No downtime, no wandering around thinking what you need to do, no grinding.
You have equal chances of winning and losing. Gear is build during the game; no one is more favorable to win because he has won fifty games before. In fact some of the best players are players with a personal score of about 1200 (out of 1500 average), only because they have played many games before, even if they lost 54% of them!
Edit: I was also wandering the other night a simple question; how us, gamers, have let the big producers create games that you need to run the same stage (call it instance, call it raid, call it scenario), win in it and still need to run it again in order to progress in the game (= loot). HOW can the milions of gamers around the world accept and consider it a normality, the fact that after you complete a certain stage of the game, you need to complete it over and over again to actually get something from it?
I know no single player games that after you succeed in completing the X quest you need to do EXACTLY the same quest again! Maybe its the same play-style, yes, but you NEVER need to complete the same quest again and again!
How have been missled to believe that it is normal for a game to have limited content and to overcompensate for that is to require you to repeat playing that content over and over again!?
I would really like a suggestion for a game that has an actual pvp strategy element.
Comments
Arn't we all?
I don't think there are ANY mmorpg's that have completely balanced pvp. There are a few that are all about PvP. Daoc, Warhammer Online, Guild Wars, and I think (not sure) Aion. None are perfectly balanced, and I don't think they ever will be. I usually hear good things about DAoC, the only bad thing I heard, and experienced, are the graphics.
You missunderstand me. I dont want balanced PvP, i want PvP that has actuall strategic elements than set dots and wait to kill, go from behind and spam the buttons after you break from invisibility, im talking about ANYTHING that represents some kind of strategy and not gear-check kills, not 1000 players hitting a door, not running the same instance 10 times to get the gear you need...
You want to run in an 8 man group in daoc. You can fight other 8 mans or fight zergs. It is both highly strategic and tactical. Strategy in the planning of what type of group to be (all casters? or a tank group?), and tactical in the millions of split second decisions required in a fight. These types of fights are hugely dependent on skill.
And gear and experience points. But skill too.
Well john, I agree with you, a game like the one you described would be awesome. But I really think you're looking in the wrong genre to be honest. It's like looking in the beer section for something that tastes more like...brandy or something. Aside from the grinding type of games (which I, like many people, enjoy) I can't come up with a system that would work for the persistant world type game. The company has to keep players busy for such a long time, until new content comes out. A game where gear and level doesn't matter is in most cases not in the mmo genre anymore. Without those elements it's just a deathmatch type of game like dota, where before and after doesn't matter.
I don't wanna bring you down, but games don't have to be mmo's to be great. Starcraft 2, CIV 5 comming soon...mmmm...CIV 5...
Oh and yeah, (IMO) so I don't get flamed.
Oh and yeah, *flame* *flame* *flame* *flame* *flame* *flame* *flame* *flame*.... -.-
Oh and I should add that in daoc, getting to the point where you can 8 man is going to be something of a long journey if you've never played the game before.
First you have to get to level 50, then get decked out in gear and stuff, then learn how to pvp (which you'd be doing against mostly veterans who won't want to bother teaching a noob), then get enough pvp experience points to where a dedicated 8 man group would consider accepting you into their guild, and then you have to actually find a dedicated 8 man group to accept you.
It is a very time consuming process from A to Z.
I think that there could be mechanics implemented in the games that promote strategy...
First of all, although mass-scale PVP looks awesome (and it is a fact that the first time that i saw a siege in Warhammer i was in an awe {not aoe}) but it is indeed imposible to make strategy in such way. The person who would lead effectively 1000 players in an mmo, would definately be the next president of the USA (or maybe just Greece... we usually tend to fail at picking politicians).
So, we need a setting where 5-6 or even 10 people would have to use first strategy, and THEN gear to overpower 10 enemies in a fashion close to deathmatch games.... i dont find it impossible to be honest... PLUS, its 2:13, i am NOT a game developer and i DON'T consider myself a genious (ok, maybe a liitle bit) and if i had the recipie, i would sell it!
SO, if there is a problem, there is a solution, maybe we just need to buy Blizzard stocks and wait for a miracle...
I gave up on PVP in MMO's a long long time ago. The only game that got it right in terms of fun strategic play was Atlantica Online, but unfortunately their cash shop is ridiculous, and it's impossible to be competitive unless you played since release. I really enjoy PVP, but MMO PVP just doesn't suit my tastes. Honestly, I'm not even playing MMO's right now because I'm so bored with them. It's the same thing year after year -- a bunch of hype, one or two "awesome new features," and updated graphics. I just can't stomach it anymore. It's probably less of a problem with the games and more of a problem with me; I've been playing these games for over a decade, and I feel like I've played the same game over and over again for the last five or so years. Maybe I'll revisit the genre in a few years to see if they've "figured it out" yet.
I bought Starcraft 2, and even being my first RTS, I am having an absolute blast laddering in multiplayer.
I guess maybe you are right, maybe the problem is with me as well, or maybe if i just enjoyed advancing my character and building up gear more, id also put up with the grind..
As for the fact that you never played an RTS before... well.. shame on you! :P
WoW arenas probably the most competitive and strategy intensive pvp aspect of any MMO.
Don't let people who bad mouth this game fool you, arenas force players to have equal playing numbers where strategy is a must if you want to win. It's not one of those things where someone who plays 8+ hours a day is guaranteed to beat you. Its 100% dependent on skill and coordination.
I'm sure someone will come on here and talk about some OP team, but 100% every team has a counter.
Granted i'm not a fan of the fact that you will have to "grind" battlegrounds to obtain must needed filler pvp gear spots, but can't get everything.
Basically my point is, if you are looking for strategy and competitive pvp in an mmo with FAIR equal playing grounds than WoW arenas is for you.
League of Legends!!!! Every game you start off at 'lvl 1'. Every game players start with the same ammount of gold as you. gold is earnt as the game goes on, or when you kill minions/players. There are different characters you can choose from, each having different skills, but the keys always stay the same (Q,W,E, and R for your ultamit skill gained at lv 6.) It's 100% stratagy, and it might just be the game you're looking for.