TBH I like MMOs were you can craft the gear you need instead of the treadmill, millions of players may put up with the raid grind but I don't and won't , real raiding anyways consists of FFA PVP like in Darkfall or EVE. Player economies are where their at.
You are missing an option in the poll . .. like "I have never put up with that so why would you?"
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I was wandering the other night a simple question;
How us, gamers, have let the big producers create games that you need to run the same stage (call it instance, call it raid, call it scenario), win in it and still need to run it again in order to progress in the game (= loot).
HOW can the milions of gamers around the world accept and consider it a normality, the fact that after you complete a certain stage of the game, you need to complete it over and over again to actually get something from it?
I know no single player games that after you succeed in completing the X quest you need to do EXACTLY the same quest again! Maybe its the same play-style, yes, but you NEVER need to complete the same quest again and again!
How have been missled to believe that it is normal for a game to have limited content and to overcompensate for that is to require you to repeat playing that content over and over again!?
There are so many wrong and foolish things in this post it is almost comical.
First, it is very rare to complete any difficult PvE content in one attempt. Most people need multiple attempts to kill the first boss in a raid and it may take months before they kill the last. People complain about how easy MMOs are but the fact is the toughest content needs to be run multiple times to complete. The more difficult the content more a group has to do it to complete it. For some people failing 15 times and than succeeding makes the success all the more fulfilling.
Second, as someone pointed out, doing enjoyable things over and over again is what life is actually about. We do the things we enjoy and avoid the things we do not. Just because some people enjoy things you do not does not make those actions less valuable or enjoyable to them. It is arrogant and self important to assume it does. Although this forum is filled with. I am looking at you Pavlov.
Third, MMOs by nature are about redundancy. There is never going to be enough content to keep people busy for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30,, 35, 40 ect. hours of play a week for years. If you want a completely new experience every time you initiate a game play session than MMOs are not for you.
Fourth and this is very important, you are assuming that the content is the same each time and there is no variance. Inherently, this is not true. It is why engaging content has variables set in that cause each session to play out differently.
Fifth, your poll is extremely skewed and shows just how self righteous and arrogant you are on this topic. Why even put a poll in you are going to skew it?
If repetitive game play is not your cup of tea than you should probably stay away from MMOs. Grinding is at the core of MMOs.
Have to go now but you get the idea.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Because I don't give a ... Back in the days when I played WoW I runned KARA (a dungeon) for... I don't know how many times. And I had a blast almost every time. The thing is that its not about the dungeon its about playing with other people. And thats it. That all it is.
Newsflash: If you don't like something doesn't mean others shouldn't like it too.
Repitition is so ingrained into the human condition its more surprising that people would object to repeeting the things they enjoy.
How many times have you eaten the same food and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you pleasured your SO in the same way and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you gotten drunk, talked about the same old nostalgic crap, and still enjoyed it?
The simple fact is that if you enjoy it then repitition is fine.
I think you actually make me reach a conclusion.. I remember Loving wow, from crafting to pvping (not arena), from graphics to the community, so maybe, in the end, you just need to like it, and repetition is fine after that... and i go back to the other paralel post here, where i talk about dota-type games, and they are in fact, in a big manner repetitive, but i dont even notice, because the factors that make every single game unique are overwhelming compared to the fact that you play the same stage over and over again!
Ok u cant compare single player games to mmos. ONe single player games have so many levels and once its done its done. U beat the game. U cant beat an mmo. Hers is why its a persisitent world. Developers have to have something to keep there player base playing. Weather its end game pvp or pve. To achievements and rep. To replayablity thats fun and exciting enough that the player base wants to create alts.
Whereas in kotor or any other single player rpg when u finish it the geme just ends. If u wanna go back and play it over u do end up doing the same quests over and over. If mmos just ended at max level they wouldnt keep a player base. People would leave. Ud have to increase the level cap every month to keep your playerbase. Raids and pvp and dungeons give players another way to keep playing.
Having multple areas the same level for leveling means players can go back and level in diff zones each time they level. Comparing a single player rpg to an mmo doesnt really make any senes to me they are 2 diffrent animals so of course the way they play out is gonna be diffrent. Mmos have to continue on and give players new things to do. If they dont they die. Once u are done a single player rpg u are done period. Whereas with an mmo u are never really done with it unless u choose to be.
I have never played diablo and the origional warcraft games i do play wow. I have tried other mmos. That said i was thinking of single player rpgs more in line with console based ones. That when u hit the end of it its just over. At least i assumed thats what the origional guy was comparing to as most console rpgs u quest till the end of the story and then its done.
Repitition is so ingrained into the human condition its more surprising that people would object to repeeting the things they enjoy.
How many times have you eaten the same food and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you pleasured your SO in the same way and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you gotten drunk, talked about the same old nostalgic crap, and still enjoyed it?
The simple fact is that if you enjoy it then repitition is fine.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Oh i didnt actually answer his question in any of my posts lol . The reason i put up with it is i love to raid. From naxx to kara to icc i have a blast. Wipes dont bother me at all. EVen if i didnt get great gear id run raids at end game because i love to do it. U know the reason most gamers put up with stuff isnt because devs put one over on us its because we enjoy it.
The reason people like to do end game pvp and pve is they find it fun. Im sure there are those that do it to say im better then u i got it frist and there are those that do it for gear. I like getting new gear but i run 10 man icc even though my shammy only needs 25 man gear because i enjoy it. If players didnt enjoy it and have fun most wouldnt do it and the mmo would fail
so i guess the best answer is we find it fun and enjoyable part of the game. I know the gear doestn matter much cause come nest raid tier or next expac im gonna just replace it so to me gear isnt as important as do i have fun running the content and as far as raids and dungeons the answer is yes i do.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
Agreed. Repetition is fine if you only play a day or 2 each week but if you play more the games should offer alternatives to regular combat.
I would love a dungeon with traps and puzzles instead of monsters to solo when you are bored. Player created tournaments, gambling... Stuff like that which you can do if you don't feel to grind an evening.
There are so many wrong and foolish things in this post it is almost comical.
First, it is very rare to complete any difficult PvE content in one attempt. Most people need multiple attempts to kill the first boss in a raid and it may take months before they kill the last. People complain about how easy MMOs are but the fact is the toughest content needs to be run multiple times to complete. The more difficult the content more a group has to do it to complete it. For some people failing 15 times and than succeeding makes the success all the more fulfilling.
Second, as someone pointed out, doing enjoyable things over and over again is what life is actually about. We do the things we enjoy and avoid the things we do not. Just because some people enjoy things you do not does not make those actions less valuable or enjoyable to them. It is arrogant and self important to assume it does. Although this forum is filled with. I am looking at you Pavlov.
Third, MMOs by nature are about redundancy. There is never going to be enough content to keep people busy for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30,, 35, 40 ect. hours of play a week for years. If you want a completely new experience every time you initiate a game play session than MMOs are not for you.
Fourth and this is very important, you are assuming that the content is the same each time and there is no variance. Inherently, this is not true. It is why engaging content has variables set in that cause each session to play out differently.
Fifth, your poll is extremely skewed and shows just how self righteous and arrogant you are on this topic. Why even put a poll in you are going to skew it?
If repetitive game play is not your cup of tea than you should probably stay away from MMOs. Grinding is at the core of MMOs.
Have to go now but you get the idea.
I really cba now to answer to someone who definately hasn't read what i have written, or at least missinterpreted them, just for the sake of the conversation, i will put down my answers:
First, i never said why would players try again and again in order to complete an instance/raid, im saying that it is strange that when game developers ask us to "win" the same instance more than one time, we consider it to be a normality.
Second, and i quote "people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder"
Third, most probably, i never said the opposite.
Fourth, i have never been a witness to an instance/raid/scenario with variables that change, in case i am wrong, please refer to this game and i will sure give it a try.
Fifth, I never said i work in a poll company and nor you should judge my character so fast, apparently, the poll is just one section of the post, the rest is free for anyone to write whatever he feels like.
Finaly, your post is invalid, for only one reason, you say "Grinding is at the core of MMOs.". When this IS *MY* hypothesis all along, my question is why we let it be like this!?
Repitition is so ingrained into the human condition its more surprising that people would object to repeeting the things they enjoy.
How many times have you eaten the same food and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you pleasured your SO in the same way and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you gotten drunk, talked about the same old nostalgic crap, and still enjoyed it?
The simple fact is that if you enjoy it then repitition is fine.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
I disagree. I think many if not most people do eat the same foods on a daily basis - the same cereal, the same chicken and broccoli, steak and potatoes... I think it happens a lot. I think most people do things they enjoy repetitively. There may be small variations but in essence it is the same activity - same game, same type of model, same type of painting and it has nothing to do with OCD but rather what they are comfortable with and feel they are skilled with.
Some even do watch the same movie repetitively. But we definately watch the same type of movies repetitively.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Repitition is so ingrained into the human condition its more surprising that people would object to repeeting the things they enjoy.
How many times have you eaten the same food and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you pleasured your SO in the same way and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you gotten drunk, talked about the same old nostalgic crap, and still enjoyed it?
The simple fact is that if you enjoy it then repitition is fine.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
I disagree. I think many if not most people do eat the same foods on a daily basis - the same cereal, the same chicken and broccoli, steak and potatoes... I think it happens a lot. I think most people do things they enjoy repetitively. There may be small variations but in essence it is the same activity - same game, same type of model, same type of painting and it has nothing to do with OCD but rather what they are comfortable with and feel they are skilled with.
Some even do watch the same movie repetitively. But we definately watch the same type of movies repetitively.
Venge Sunsoar
Chicken, steak and all the rest of the ingredients can be combined to make up different meals and different eating experiences. Eating them is also part of living, it's a necessity. Running the same raid over and over is not the same. Personally I don't repeat the same entertainment experience over and over again on a daily basis, reading a different book is tantamount to playing a different game each night, not to playing a slightly different dungeon in the same game every night.
Watching the same movie over and over again is odd, we may watch the same types of movies but even then I for one don't watch, for instance, action films every night of the week.
Two things spring to mind; variety is the spice of life and eating fruit every day is nothing like running the same mmo raid every day..
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Heres my take on this issue, and the mindset behind it.
You dont want to do something over and over and over again...right?
The problem is, that instead of playing the game (dare i say this) as intended, you probably wouldnt be.
The OP made it sound like the developers were holding a gun to his head, saying "you must grind this raid or these mobs because you must obtain this level or item".....
Reality is, you dont NEED that item, time an time again i see people under equipped and playing like they are overpowerd.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you must be the single greatest player in terms of equipment, yes even if your one of those self proclaimed "im the best at everything i do it just comes naturally" type of narcissist.
See the frame of mind, is that this is a job, just because you CAN make it a job.
Play the damn game to enjoy it, when you get bored, move on. You can always pick up where you left off right? When did it become fact that a game must keep you entertained for 5-10 years?
There are plenty of games that change what you must repeate to advance, many mentioned in this thread somewhere.
Now if this is a WoW related thread, thats a bit diffrent, that game has its own unique set of issues that only arise in a game that is extremely old AND has retained a huge portion of its population over that time. There you might actually need the best gear, seeing as a huge % of your server is on that level. However in my short stint in wow, i was both doing "WTF damage" and "WTF are you doing noob, thats not how you play a mage, get back and spam blizzard" and i was less that well equipped. That game has your destiny preplanned, due to years and years of parsed fights.
All im trying to do is, just slightly, open the eyes of the mmorpg sheep (no offense). You dont HAVE to powerlevel to endgame, then equipment grind, in the shortest amount of time (not really being able to enjoy any the trip there) then quit after 1 year, bitching how there is nothing to do it that it is boring.
Most (emphasis on most not all) mmorpgs are designed to be both a book with a story you can control slightly, an explorable world, a social enviroment, and an action game. People want to play as an action game only, and miss the point.
I feel that a lot of people are so obsessed with being known in game as a great pvp'er that they completely miss the point of why they are playing (to have fun).
If you can only have fun dominating the pvp scene, then i hate to break it to you, your not going to enjoy most mmorpgs.
So quit the job of competative gaming for a while and start up some gaming for enjoyment. Funny thing about it, is that those who just play to enjoy the experience, usually play longer (they dont burn though 2 years of content in 4 weeks) and are the better (non cheating) pvpers in the end, it just takes longer than most want to spend (as intended)
...back to your flame war why everyone is wrong but you
Because it takes a team of developers 2 years to develop enough content for players to burn through in three months (or less).
Been there, done that... have a T-Shirt.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
What game is not rinse and repeat content? Have yet to play one that does not have some sort of grind...be it instances, quests, mining, killing npc's, killing other players. All of them are about repeating the same actions over and over and over. Different people find different things fun.
Better question is...Who are you to tell people what is fun to them?
...back to your flame war why everyone is wrong but you
Irony.
Im not flaming anyone, im just saying to try and look at games in a diffrent light, if your currently having trouble enjoying any mmorpg. It that doesnt work, surely there are other ways to spend your entertainment dollars.
I wonder how those elite creeps can even put up a fight especially the ones that only drop coin...
Are they naked?
Are they suffering from a loot/gear depression?
I for one never fell for it, I did one raid dungeon during Vanilla WoW, and that was it. The one flaw I had with the entire system was the allowing of a master looter. No way was I going to play a game that mimicked a workplace scenario with the same type of drama only virtually. Games are suppose to be fun, but there comes a point where I draw the line and it had been crossed. And some of you will say that is nothing compared to EQ raid times... and to that I just laugh and I cry inside alittle for the people who were duped into that scene as well. If you love the fantasy that Blizzard creates buy into it another way, purchase some stock. Don't keep giving them a monthly subscription that they are literally begging for when you reach this raid point so that you can burn off more time in your life for nothing...
Players want it - sort of - at least some of them do.
Or rather what they don't want is to be lower level than anyone else because - i don't know why. So they race to max level and then they don't want to have worse gear than anyone else so they storm through all the max level stuff and then they're bored and complain. So the games try and add more max level stuff and the player go through that very fast and complain some more and round and round it goes. The only way the games have to stop them being bored is ration out the loot through drop rate and repitition.
I don't think the games drive this process i think a segment of the players do.
Personally i think the games are wasting their time trying to feed the insatiable max level beast and instead should be using their dev time on hobbit gardening, dwarf barrel racing, human jousting and elf free running minigames that distract people instead.
To focus on such a small part of what's going on is just ignorant.
People play MMO's to spend time with other people be it friends, family, or strangers who share their interest. When you've found a group of people you enjoy playing and spending time with, the fun comes more from the time spent with them than the actual activity (at least for most), and of course the feeling of accomplishment when defeating a certain thing, or finishing a task is satisfying. There are those, however, that take it to a different level of obsession and whose only reward is the next piece of loot - you know, the "world first!" folks whose only goal is personal accomplishment and self-gratification be it either through the rewards of loot, recognition for leading such a group, or some sense of feeling "special" for having accomplished something before everyone else.
At any rate, I do agree to some extent that games need more randomness or ways to evolve beyond repeating the same routine to accomplish such tasks. That really points towards enemy AI, scripted events, etc.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
Repitition is so ingrained into the human condition its more surprising that people would object to repeeting the things they enjoy.
How many times have you eaten the same food and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you pleasured your SO in the same way and still enjoyed it?
How many times have you gotten drunk, talked about the same old nostalgic crap, and still enjoyed it?
The simple fact is that if you enjoy it then repitition is fine.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
I disagree. I think many if not most people do eat the same foods on a daily basis - the same cereal, the same chicken and broccoli, steak and potatoes... I think it happens a lot. I think most people do things they enjoy repetitively. There may be small variations but in essence it is the same activity - same game, same type of model, same type of painting and it has nothing to do with OCD but rather what they are comfortable with and feel they are skilled with.
Some even do watch the same movie repetitively. But we definately watch the same type of movies repetitively.
Venge Sunsoar
Chicken, steak and all the rest of the ingredients can be combined to make up different meals and different eating experiences. Eating them is also part of living, it's a necessity. Running the same raid over and over is not the same. Personally I don't repeat the same entertainment experience over and over again on a daily basis, reading a different book is tantamount to playing a different game each night, not to playing a slightly different dungeon in the same game every night.
Watching the same movie over and over again is odd, we may watch the same types of movies but even then I for one don't watch, for instance, action films every night of the week.
Two things spring to mind; variety is the spice of life and eating fruit every day is nothing like running the same mmo raid every day..
Ok, but you are not claiming to speak for everyone right?
Because there ARE many people who will enjoy the same thign over and over again because they enjoy it.
I eat the same foods each time I go to a restaurant because I know what I like and don't feel compelled to try something new unless the mood hits me.
When I was in high school I listened to the same recording of Prokofiev's 3rd piano concerto so many times that I had to buy the record three times.
Not everyone is seeking a new thrill, not everyone wants variety all the time. Sometimes people actually do know what they want and unless they feel compelled to be adventurous, have no problem enjoy the things they like as much as they want to enjoy them.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Repetiveness is the sole deterrent to bring in subscriptions. This thread is essentially the age ole dicussion of the "grind." It's not the design you have to blame, rather the philosophy behind the design. For instance, you can have a dungeon with a quest, (instanced or not instanced) that gives tells you what the reward is prior of completion. The mindset for the playerbase will to try and trek through that content as fast as they can to get the rewards. They will keep on doing the same dungeon or different dungeons and have the same result. The focus is the end not the journey. Once that is implemented into the playerbase by that philosophy it echos through the design to make it repetive.
Wow is the perfect example of this. You rush through content to get a badge for a dungeon for loot. No journey what so ever. Everyone wants to take the shortest path to get to the last boss to retreave their reward. To me, that makes the grind more of a job. It doesn't become fun anymore. I think it's very linear gameplay. Wow is not the only mmo that is modeled after that either.
For me as a designer, it's the philosophy behind the design which can negate this linear grind. Whether a player likes it or not, there will always be a grind. Its merely how a developer illudes it to the playerbase. I think the best way to mitigate this linear grind is to simply have adaptability within gameplay. A group of players may trigger an event within that dungeon to make those factions(s) more passive or aggressive to your group and new adventurers to this dungeon. There can be multiple intentions for a group to have purpose in a dungeon, to explore, sent there via quest, meeting place, nice farming place ect. Overtime, the AI should adapt to the players actions. If there are multple ways to enter this dungeon and the majority of players enter it throught one way, the next time you go there it may be more heavily guarded. There may be a named mob there. So in a small way that dungeon changed. Everytime you come back to a dungeon it will be changed in some way; the throne room may have been moved, more or less heavily guarded, blocked off halls that was easy access to different rooms ect. It still keeps the same theme, style and of the dungeon, however, the fluidity of exploration may change or how mobs react to you may change. Essentially this creates replayability. Because when those change the objective changes in most cases.
I was wandering the other night a simple question;
How us, gamers, have let the big producers create games that you need to run the same stage (call it instance, call it raid, call it scenario), win in it and still need to run it again in order to progress in the game (= loot).
HOW can the milions of gamers around the world accept and consider it a normality, the fact that after you complete a certain stage of the game, you need to complete it over and over again to actually get something from it?
I know no single player games that after you succeed in completing the X quest you need to do EXACTLY the same quest again! Maybe its the same play-style, yes, but you NEVER need to complete the same quest again and again!
How have been missled to believe that it is normal for a game to have limited content and to overcompensate for that is to require you to repeat playing that content over and over again!?
It's based on life. I know countless people who get up every saturday morning at 6am get in the same car, drive down the same road and fish in the same river for the same 4 hours. Or that get up every sunday morning, take the same glove and the same bat and go play softball with the same teammates at the same field.
They do it because it's fun or because it's habit or because they like the company of the people they're doing it with. Or because maybe today they'll hit a homerun or catch a bigger fish.
People have been playing the same counterstrike map for what, 10 years now?
Also, every game has LIMITED content. Sure, you can have the monster's name be auto-generated to create a bit more uniqueness, but more or less, it's the same. Even if it were possible to make a game with unlimited content, it would not be anywhere near financially viable.
So those are the answers to your question. I'm guessing you didn't really want answers. You just want to bitch about something you don't like. No problem, we all like different things. If you want to wait for a game with unlimited content, more power to ya. I'll gladly play it when it comes out, until then, i'll enjoy the existing games.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Comments
You are missing an option in the poll . .. like "I have never put up with that so why would you?"
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There are so many wrong and foolish things in this post it is almost comical.
First, it is very rare to complete any difficult PvE content in one attempt. Most people need multiple attempts to kill the first boss in a raid and it may take months before they kill the last. People complain about how easy MMOs are but the fact is the toughest content needs to be run multiple times to complete. The more difficult the content more a group has to do it to complete it. For some people failing 15 times and than succeeding makes the success all the more fulfilling.
Second, as someone pointed out, doing enjoyable things over and over again is what life is actually about. We do the things we enjoy and avoid the things we do not. Just because some people enjoy things you do not does not make those actions less valuable or enjoyable to them. It is arrogant and self important to assume it does. Although this forum is filled with. I am looking at you Pavlov.
Third, MMOs by nature are about redundancy. There is never going to be enough content to keep people busy for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30,, 35, 40 ect. hours of play a week for years. If you want a completely new experience every time you initiate a game play session than MMOs are not for you.
Fourth and this is very important, you are assuming that the content is the same each time and there is no variance. Inherently, this is not true. It is why engaging content has variables set in that cause each session to play out differently.
Fifth, your poll is extremely skewed and shows just how self righteous and arrogant you are on this topic. Why even put a poll in you are going to skew it?
If repetitive game play is not your cup of tea than you should probably stay away from MMOs. Grinding is at the core of MMOs.
Have to go now but you get the idea.
--John Ruskin
Because I don't give a ... Back in the days when I played WoW I runned KARA (a dungeon) for... I don't know how many times. And I had a blast almost every time. The thing is that its not about the dungeon its about playing with other people. And thats it. That all it is.
Newsflash: If you don't like something doesn't mean others shouldn't like it too.
I think you actually make me reach a conclusion.. I remember Loving wow, from crafting to pvping (not arena), from graphics to the community, so maybe, in the end, you just need to like it, and repetition is fine after that... and i go back to the other paralel post here, where i talk about dota-type games, and they are in fact, in a big manner repetitive, but i dont even notice, because the factors that make every single game unique are overwhelming compared to the fact that you play the same stage over and over again!
Ok u cant compare single player games to mmos. ONe single player games have so many levels and once its done its done. U beat the game. U cant beat an mmo. Hers is why its a persisitent world. Developers have to have something to keep there player base playing. Weather its end game pvp or pve. To achievements and rep. To replayablity thats fun and exciting enough that the player base wants to create alts.
Whereas in kotor or any other single player rpg when u finish it the geme just ends. If u wanna go back and play it over u do end up doing the same quests over and over. If mmos just ended at max level they wouldnt keep a player base. People would leave. Ud have to increase the level cap every month to keep your playerbase. Raids and pvp and dungeons give players another way to keep playing.
Having multple areas the same level for leveling means players can go back and level in diff zones each time they level. Comparing a single player rpg to an mmo doesnt really make any senes to me they are 2 diffrent animals so of course the way they play out is gonna be diffrent. Mmos have to continue on and give players new things to do. If they dont they die. Once u are done a single player rpg u are done period. Whereas with an mmo u are never really done with it unless u choose to be.
I have never played diablo and the origional warcraft games i do play wow. I have tried other mmos. That said i was thinking of single player rpgs more in line with console based ones. That when u hit the end of it its just over. At least i assumed thats what the origional guy was comparing to as most console rpgs u quest till the end of the story and then its done.
Playing devils advocate here, people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder.
How many times have you watched the same film in a row, night after night after night?
If you are playing an mmo for an hour or so once every week then fair enough, but methinks many here are playing them far more then that, and as such the repetition involved becomes far more acute then in the examples you have cited.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Oh i didnt actually answer his question in any of my posts lol . The reason i put up with it is i love to raid. From naxx to kara to icc i have a blast. Wipes dont bother me at all. EVen if i didnt get great gear id run raids at end game because i love to do it. U know the reason most gamers put up with stuff isnt because devs put one over on us its because we enjoy it.
The reason people like to do end game pvp and pve is they find it fun. Im sure there are those that do it to say im better then u i got it frist and there are those that do it for gear. I like getting new gear but i run 10 man icc even though my shammy only needs 25 man gear because i enjoy it. If players didnt enjoy it and have fun most wouldnt do it and the mmo would fail
so i guess the best answer is we find it fun and enjoyable part of the game. I know the gear doestn matter much cause come nest raid tier or next expac im gonna just replace it so to me gear isnt as important as do i have fun running the content and as far as raids and dungeons the answer is yes i do.
Really good point.
Agreed. Repetition is fine if you only play a day or 2 each week but if you play more the games should offer alternatives to regular combat.
I would love a dungeon with traps and puzzles instead of monsters to solo when you are bored. Player created tournaments, gambling... Stuff like that which you can do if you don't feel to grind an evening.
I really cba now to answer to someone who definately hasn't read what i have written, or at least missinterpreted them, just for the sake of the conversation, i will put down my answers:
First, i never said why would players try again and again in order to complete an instance/raid, im saying that it is strange that when game developers ask us to "win" the same instance more than one time, we consider it to be a normality.
Second, and i quote "people tend to play mmo's on a daily basis. People don't eat the same food on a daily basis, they don't in general do anything entertainment/enjoyment wise repetitvely on a daily basis unless they have some form of obsessive compulsive disorder"
Third, most probably, i never said the opposite.
Fourth, i have never been a witness to an instance/raid/scenario with variables that change, in case i am wrong, please refer to this game and i will sure give it a try.
Fifth, I never said i work in a poll company and nor you should judge my character so fast, apparently, the poll is just one section of the post, the rest is free for anyone to write whatever he feels like.
Finaly, your post is invalid, for only one reason, you say "Grinding is at the core of MMOs.". When this IS *MY* hypothesis all along, my question is why we let it be like this!?
I disagree. I think many if not most people do eat the same foods on a daily basis - the same cereal, the same chicken and broccoli, steak and potatoes... I think it happens a lot. I think most people do things they enjoy repetitively. There may be small variations but in essence it is the same activity - same game, same type of model, same type of painting and it has nothing to do with OCD but rather what they are comfortable with and feel they are skilled with.
Some even do watch the same movie repetitively. But we definately watch the same type of movies repetitively.
Venge Sunsoar
Chicken, steak and all the rest of the ingredients can be combined to make up different meals and different eating experiences. Eating them is also part of living, it's a necessity. Running the same raid over and over is not the same. Personally I don't repeat the same entertainment experience over and over again on a daily basis, reading a different book is tantamount to playing a different game each night, not to playing a slightly different dungeon in the same game every night.
Watching the same movie over and over again is odd, we may watch the same types of movies but even then I for one don't watch, for instance, action films every night of the week.
Two things spring to mind; variety is the spice of life and eating fruit every day is nothing like running the same mmo raid every day..
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Heres my take on this issue, and the mindset behind it.
You dont want to do something over and over and over again...right?
The problem is, that instead of playing the game (dare i say this) as intended, you probably wouldnt be.
The OP made it sound like the developers were holding a gun to his head, saying "you must grind this raid or these mobs because you must obtain this level or item".....
Reality is, you dont NEED that item, time an time again i see people under equipped and playing like they are overpowerd.
Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you must be the single greatest player in terms of equipment, yes even if your one of those self proclaimed "im the best at everything i do it just comes naturally" type of narcissist.
See the frame of mind, is that this is a job, just because you CAN make it a job.
Play the damn game to enjoy it, when you get bored, move on. You can always pick up where you left off right? When did it become fact that a game must keep you entertained for 5-10 years?
There are plenty of games that change what you must repeate to advance, many mentioned in this thread somewhere.
Now if this is a WoW related thread, thats a bit diffrent, that game has its own unique set of issues that only arise in a game that is extremely old AND has retained a huge portion of its population over that time. There you might actually need the best gear, seeing as a huge % of your server is on that level. However in my short stint in wow, i was both doing "WTF damage" and "WTF are you doing noob, thats not how you play a mage, get back and spam blizzard" and i was less that well equipped. That game has your destiny preplanned, due to years and years of parsed fights.
All im trying to do is, just slightly, open the eyes of the mmorpg sheep (no offense). You dont HAVE to powerlevel to endgame, then equipment grind, in the shortest amount of time (not really being able to enjoy any the trip there) then quit after 1 year, bitching how there is nothing to do it that it is boring.
Most (emphasis on most not all) mmorpgs are designed to be both a book with a story you can control slightly, an explorable world, a social enviroment, and an action game. People want to play as an action game only, and miss the point.
I feel that a lot of people are so obsessed with being known in game as a great pvp'er that they completely miss the point of why they are playing (to have fun).
If you can only have fun dominating the pvp scene, then i hate to break it to you, your not going to enjoy most mmorpgs.
So quit the job of competative gaming for a while and start up some gaming for enjoyment. Funny thing about it, is that those who just play to enjoy the experience, usually play longer (they dont burn though 2 years of content in 4 weeks) and are the better (non cheating) pvpers in the end, it just takes longer than most want to spend (as intended)
...back to your flame war why everyone is wrong but you
Because it takes a team of developers 2 years to develop enough content for players to burn through in three months (or less).
Been there, done that... have a T-Shirt.
Irony.
What game is not rinse and repeat content? Have yet to play one that does not have some sort of grind...be it instances, quests, mining, killing npc's, killing other players. All of them are about repeating the same actions over and over and over. Different people find different things fun.
Better question is...Who are you to tell people what is fun to them?
Im not flaming anyone, im just saying to try and look at games in a diffrent light, if your currently having trouble enjoying any mmorpg. It that doesnt work, surely there are other ways to spend your entertainment dollars.
I wonder how those elite creeps can even put up a fight especially the ones that only drop coin...
Are they naked?
Are they suffering from a loot/gear depression?
I for one never fell for it, I did one raid dungeon during Vanilla WoW, and that was it. The one flaw I had with the entire system was the allowing of a master looter. No way was I going to play a game that mimicked a workplace scenario with the same type of drama only virtually. Games are suppose to be fun, but there comes a point where I draw the line and it had been crossed. And some of you will say that is nothing compared to EQ raid times... and to that I just laugh and I cry inside alittle for the people who were duped into that scene as well. If you love the fantasy that Blizzard creates buy into it another way, purchase some stock. Don't keep giving them a monthly subscription that they are literally begging for when you reach this raid point so that you can burn off more time in your life for nothing...
Players want it - sort of - at least some of them do.
Or rather what they don't want is to be lower level than anyone else because - i don't know why. So they race to max level and then they don't want to have worse gear than anyone else so they storm through all the max level stuff and then they're bored and complain. So the games try and add more max level stuff and the player go through that very fast and complain some more and round and round it goes. The only way the games have to stop them being bored is ration out the loot through drop rate and repitition.
I don't think the games drive this process i think a segment of the players do.
Personally i think the games are wasting their time trying to feed the insatiable max level beast and instead should be using their dev time on hobbit gardening, dwarf barrel racing, human jousting and elf free running minigames that distract people instead.
To focus on such a small part of what's going on is just ignorant.
People play MMO's to spend time with other people be it friends, family, or strangers who share their interest. When you've found a group of people you enjoy playing and spending time with, the fun comes more from the time spent with them than the actual activity (at least for most), and of course the feeling of accomplishment when defeating a certain thing, or finishing a task is satisfying. There are those, however, that take it to a different level of obsession and whose only reward is the next piece of loot - you know, the "world first!" folks whose only goal is personal accomplishment and self-gratification be it either through the rewards of loot, recognition for leading such a group, or some sense of feeling "special" for having accomplished something before everyone else.
At any rate, I do agree to some extent that games need more randomness or ways to evolve beyond repeating the same routine to accomplish such tasks. That really points towards enemy AI, scripted events, etc.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Looking around for the "Like" button here....
Ok, but you are not claiming to speak for everyone right?
Because there ARE many people who will enjoy the same thign over and over again because they enjoy it.
I eat the same foods each time I go to a restaurant because I know what I like and don't feel compelled to try something new unless the mood hits me.
When I was in high school I listened to the same recording of Prokofiev's 3rd piano concerto so many times that I had to buy the record three times.
Not everyone is seeking a new thrill, not everyone wants variety all the time. Sometimes people actually do know what they want and unless they feel compelled to be adventurous, have no problem enjoy the things they like as much as they want to enjoy them.
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Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Repetiveness is the sole deterrent to bring in subscriptions. This thread is essentially the age ole dicussion of the "grind." It's not the design you have to blame, rather the philosophy behind the design. For instance, you can have a dungeon with a quest, (instanced or not instanced) that gives tells you what the reward is prior of completion. The mindset for the playerbase will to try and trek through that content as fast as they can to get the rewards. They will keep on doing the same dungeon or different dungeons and have the same result. The focus is the end not the journey. Once that is implemented into the playerbase by that philosophy it echos through the design to make it repetive.
Wow is the perfect example of this. You rush through content to get a badge for a dungeon for loot. No journey what so ever. Everyone wants to take the shortest path to get to the last boss to retreave their reward. To me, that makes the grind more of a job. It doesn't become fun anymore. I think it's very linear gameplay. Wow is not the only mmo that is modeled after that either.
For me as a designer, it's the philosophy behind the design which can negate this linear grind. Whether a player likes it or not, there will always be a grind. Its merely how a developer illudes it to the playerbase. I think the best way to mitigate this linear grind is to simply have adaptability within gameplay. A group of players may trigger an event within that dungeon to make those factions(s) more passive or aggressive to your group and new adventurers to this dungeon. There can be multiple intentions for a group to have purpose in a dungeon, to explore, sent there via quest, meeting place, nice farming place ect. Overtime, the AI should adapt to the players actions. If there are multple ways to enter this dungeon and the majority of players enter it throught one way, the next time you go there it may be more heavily guarded. There may be a named mob there. So in a small way that dungeon changed. Everytime you come back to a dungeon it will be changed in some way; the throne room may have been moved, more or less heavily guarded, blocked off halls that was easy access to different rooms ect. It still keeps the same theme, style and of the dungeon, however, the fluidity of exploration may change or how mobs react to you may change. Essentially this creates replayability. Because when those change the objective changes in most cases.
It's based on life. I know countless people who get up every saturday morning at 6am get in the same car, drive down the same road and fish in the same river for the same 4 hours. Or that get up every sunday morning, take the same glove and the same bat and go play softball with the same teammates at the same field.
They do it because it's fun or because it's habit or because they like the company of the people they're doing it with. Or because maybe today they'll hit a homerun or catch a bigger fish.
People have been playing the same counterstrike map for what, 10 years now?
Also, every game has LIMITED content. Sure, you can have the monster's name be auto-generated to create a bit more uniqueness, but more or less, it's the same. Even if it were possible to make a game with unlimited content, it would not be anywhere near financially viable.
So those are the answers to your question. I'm guessing you didn't really want answers. You just want to bitch about something you don't like. No problem, we all like different things. If you want to wait for a game with unlimited content, more power to ya. I'll gladly play it when it comes out, until then, i'll enjoy the existing games.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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