I would have done things significantly differently, firstly I would have still had classes but not had "factional" classes based off of whether your allegiences were with the Empire , the Republic, the criminal underworld or whoever.
If BioWare are so good at storytelling why could they not have the starting point for the story being the choices that led up to your joining one of the factions in the game? The way things are now you start out being already ensconced in one organisation or the other based on rather arbitary choices, why not start off just as a nobody & then develop as a player & build your class & decide your factional allegience as you go along, even so far as to choosing whether or not you will be a force-sensitive player or not in the course of the game.
With a more open ended system like that you would feel much more that the character on screen was truly your creation & that it reflected your decisions & choices in a much more tangible way than choosing a class right off the bat, of course in the context of a 100 million dollar plus investment there could be a restriction of this "storytold" character creation made through the game's tutorial though it wouldn;t be presented as a tutorial rather as an introduction to your character, would that not be even more cinematic?
Moving onto race choices, well here I have a huge problem with BioWare's psuedo-intellectual bullshit about not being able to storyboard for races that are not very-human, because I think their argument is full of holes, I think it had more to do with the voiceover process and the desire for each character to be voiced within the game than any inability to convey story from the perspective of a race that is very different to humans. So race choices I'd have had a more distinct variety.
That's certainly not what i meant. There are lots of stories to be told. But the stories are of the more down-to-earth type like: "i was smuggling some stuff for a gangster and had to dump it when imperials show up. now the gangster wants to send a bounty hunter after me..." as opposed to "i am the phophesized saviour of the universe destined to defeat my father in a supernatural battle" type.
My point wasn't to avoid plot, drama and character developments. My point was that it should focus on the kind of drama, plot and development that a million different people could be involved in. The universe had countless boba fetts and han solos and jabbas. They are what make the star wars universe that makes the setting for Luke's battle with Vader. That battle would ocme and go, but the universe would remain. At least to me. Making an MMO isn't the same as making a movie, focus has to be different.
Ah, I thought you were talking about the difference of story between sandbox oriented MMO's where story is more of a meta-created development, more a RP/OOC thing in contrast to the dev provided story by quests and such.
But when it comes to MMORPG's: you'll hardly see stories in MMO's like that you are 'the one and only savior', but you're certainly one of the many heroes that make a difference. SW:TOR won't be an exception in this. MMORPG's certainly in quests and such focus on the high life, not as much as you and your character being a farmer in a backward village where days pass by and nothing much ever happens, besides you living your life.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I would make it so the entire game takes place inside of a cardboard box, because I actually have enough of an imagination to create my own content and don't need devs to spoonfeed me with some pre-defined character advancement path.
From what I have gathered so far, BioWare are not envisioning a Star Wars universe at all, let alone trying to create one - they are making an MMORPG game based on Star Wars lore which is supposed to make you feel like you are playing a character in one of the old movies. In a sense, whenever you are logged in, you should feel like you have the camera on you.
^ This: too much of a movie, not enough freeness.
The 4th pillar, story, made it so everything is set on rails. Even class species seems to be limited to humanoid ones as players aren't felt as being able to relate to strange aliens.
From what I have gathered so far, BioWare are not envisioning a Star Wars universe at all, let alone trying to create one - they are making an MMORPG game based on Star Wars lore which is supposed to make you feel like you are playing a character in one of the old movies. In a sense, whenever you are logged in, you should feel like you have the camera on you.
^ This: too much of a movie, not enough freeness.
The 4th pillar, story, made it so everything is set on rails. Even class species seems to be limited to humanoid ones as players aren't felt as being able to relate to strange aliens.
They made a Star Wars universe its called the old republic era.
Basically - the Fanboys don't need to read after that - a virtual open world with Star Wars like space combat and freedom, instead of an interactive Bioware movie.
I. Character
Instead of classes I would have gone the skill route. After you have created your character you could spent points on intelligence, strenth, dexterity, vitality, agility aso --->leading to a very unique "naked" character. Since there are no classes you then have to decide what direction you would like to go and then push your skills by actually using them. This means complete freedom in the way how you're designing your alter-ego.
II. Open world
There wouldn't be quests handholding you and guiding you through a linear part of the world. Now this is where Bioware's story philosophy takes place. Instead of using instances, phasing to guide you through a written part I'd use phasing for dynamic events like Anet is doing it. Events in a form that you have to make decissions (whom to help/kill, participate, infiltrate aso.) nothing like "good answer, bad answer or neutral answer" and then watching a boring 1 minute conversation, your actions do matter immediately. The world would be huge and full of danger.
III. Group Play
Since this is going to be a MMORPG I would encourage grouping with nice mechanics. Like in Aion there would be group areas giving you the best exp ratio and also increasing your skills the fastest way. By teaming up with others dynamic events would alos take place in the group areas (see above).
IV. Combat
SKilling hordes of braindead AI enemies isn't heroic its stupid so instead of hack n slay I'd go reaction based like Vanguard till Beta 3. Meaning every enemy would have some abilities that needs to be countered the right way otherwise chances are you going to die real fast.
V. Deep housing STAR WARS
I would make sure that space combat actually feels like Star Wars and not like Moorhuhn in space, therefore including it with an addon focusing on real Star Wars like space combat.
I don't think Swtor is fully the vision Bioware has for it looks mor like they wanted to create Kotor 4,5 and 6 instead of an MMO but EA is pressuring them so they can squeeze out a monthly fee AND on top of that selling stories-quests with dlc.
to sum it up:
My and Bioware's vision are differing in freedom cause linear handholding gameplay is not Star Wars.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Basically - the Fanboys don't need to read after that - a virtual open world with Star Wars like space combat and freedom, instead of an interactive Bioware movie.
I. Character
Instead of classes I would have gone the skill route. After you have created your character you could spent points on intelligence, strenth, dexterity, vitality, agility aso --->leading to a very unique "naked" character. Since there are no classes you then have to decide what direction you would like to go and then push your skills by actually using them. This means complete freedom in the way how you're designing your alter-ego.
II. Open world
There wouldn't be quests handholding you and guiding you through a linear part of the world. Now this is where Bioware's story philosophy takes place. Instead of using instances, phasing to guide you through a written part I'd use phasing for dynamic events like Anet is doing it. Events in a form that you have to make decissions (whom to help/kill, participate, infiltrate aso.) nothing like "good answer, bad answer or neutral answer" and then watching a boring 1 minute conversation, your actions do matter immediately. The world would be huge and full of danger.
III. Group Play
Since this is going to be a MMORPG I would encourage grouping with nice mechanics. Like in Aion there would be group areas giving you the best exp ratio and also increasing your skills the fastest way. By teaming up with others dynamic events would alos take place in the group areas (see above).
IV. Combat
SKilling hordes of braindead AI enemies isn't heroic its stupid so instead of hack n slay I'd go reaction based like Vanguard till Beta 3. Meaning every enemy would have some abilities that needs to be countered the right way otherwise chances are you going to die real fast.
V. Deep housing STAR WARS
I would make sure that space combat actually feels like Star Wars and not like Moorhuhn in space, therefore including it with an addon focusing on real Star Wars like space combat.
I don't think Swtor is fully the vision Bioware has for it looks mor like they wanted to create Kotor 4,5 and 6 instead of an MMO but EA is pressuring them so they can squeeze out a monthly fee AND on top of that selling stories-quests with dlc.
to sum it up:
My and Bioware's vision are differing in freedom cause linear handholding gameplay is not Star Wars.
Why is Star Wars not linear? Its a series of movies. You go from point A to B in movies. SWG vet much?
No support for Sith as an open player character. The player can play Jedi - which secretly might be Sith, but you cant tell from the outside.
Jedi would be rare. Meaning every player is able to create a Jedi character, but if you travel to a planet without a group, you are very likely the only Jedi on the planet, unless its one of the special "core" planets with Jedi gathering places.
I would support dynamic server switch. I.e. if you travel to another part of the galaxy, you will end up on a different server. That way everyone will really play on the same virtual world, albeit not on the same server.
Jedi would be able to sense other Jedi on the same planet, or when they are in close proximity in space. They wont be able to tell if the other Jedi is a Sith, though.
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Putting aside combat mechanics and class progression and that kind of thing, SWG, in its initial incarnation (+space) was pretty much exactly what I envisioned Star Wars universe to feel like to inhabit :
- Worlds, planets, small and large cities, farmers, scoundrels, entertainers, traders and bounty hunters all going on about their business in their own small way and interacting when their paths or interests cross.
- The civil war somewhere in the distance - available for joining but not necessarily in your face everywhere.
- Foreboding and dangerous places our there for the adventurer, rare materials and riches out there for the explorer or tinikerer. Bars and taverns for all of the above to come together.
- Jedi nothing but a rare and distant myth.
- Space as much a part of life as sand and earth.
That's my idea of what it feels like to live in the star wars universe. I've read a lot of books though and while the books and movies focus on the heroes, I understand the the galaxy isn't populated entirely by them. And it doesn't make sense to populate a game with them.
To me, the best source material for creating a star wars MMO are the some of the short story books like Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, Tales from Jabba's Palace or Tales of the Bounty Hunters. These tells the stories of all the OTHER people that were present in these places and what they were doing. This is the universe of star wars. Luke fighting Vader is totally awesome, but that's just 2 people in a world of billions. You can't create a world of a million Lukes and Vaders.
There are other ways to structure a good star wars MMO. You can have one that entirely war-based. Either clone wars or galactic civil war or whatever. You pick your side and you fight the other side. Either rebel or empire, you get appropriate weapons, appropriate ships, etc. It's based around planetary battles and space battles. No exploration, building, civilization or any of that junk. It's a representation of war, something akin to Tabula Rasa + X-Wing.
Where the game is set in the timeline doesn't matter for the way I'd want to approach it. Jedi shouldn't ever be playable unless ALL player-characters are Jedi / force-sensitive. There are plenty of creative ways to incorporate Jedi into the game without having to play them. You can even add game parts where you take control of a jedi as you help them on a mission or something. But otherwise it just creates way to much of a rift between players. To be done properly jedi must be vastly more powerful than players, which would make it difficult for a combat-based game.
Yes! Very well said. I mean, I can imagine doing a bit a different drift, but essentially, SWG was in its essence as I imagine the Star Wars universe as well.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I wish there'd be more sandbox elements in it, personally I think that the best possible kind of MMORPG is one where themepark and sandbox elements are blended successfully, so that you can follow questlines and higher quality plots and storylines if you want to, but also do something totally off the beaten path and also have a great time. I heard you can go fully gatherer/crafter in FFXIV, even up to level cap without ever having killed a mob, that sounds great. In a sense, a perfect sandbox/themepark hybrid MMO would be where you can find all the MMO 'lifestyles' and there's enough to do for each type of lifestyle, whether you go questing, crafting, building, exploring, whatever you like.
It seems that exploration will be more possible though in SW:TOR and a bigger deal than in the other MMORPG's, I hope it'll work out. I miss the sense of exploration that I got in EQ, I also liked it how it was possible to discover hidden villages and other hub spots when you strayed away from the guided paths.
And for combat, I wish there would be some option where space combat and land combat combine in a large scale and where they effect each other, sort of like in Return of the Jedi, where simultaneously in space and on land the battle was going on. It could even be done in multiple linked Warzones and scenarios with a number of objectives to accomplish and positions to hold and defend. When done right, it could be as epic as in the movies.
Originally posted by Elikal
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
Good point.
I agree, a dessert isn't the full course, and neither is the main dish. It's all in the combination of all the courses, all the components and how they complement eachother.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint.
Chiss and Twileks would take offense to such a statement. Each to their own of course though, I prefer humans personally.
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
You won't be, if what the developers have said is true. I see no reason at this point to think what they've said is a lie.
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
To me this is more a matter of player perspective and approach. You're in a galaxy full of war, and you're serving a side. That doesn't make you the lone savior of the galaxy, or a hero of epic proportions.
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
This is a L.A. backed product, those characters will always be at the forefront of any Jedi related design.
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
The false thinking of our time (IMO) is more along the lines of, since something isn't exactly how a person wants it to be, it isn't possible for it to be an enjoyable experience for them.
Don't take my response wrong, you're free to feel how you want, your opinion is your own. The above are simply the thoughts that came to mind after reading your opinions.
-edit, sorry forgot to add to the OP, damn only having 6hrs of sleep in two days sucks..
Personally I would have preferred a post ROTJ time period. That will always be the Star Warsy time period to me. While this old republic stuff has some interesting aspects to it, it doesn't spark the same emotions Star wars usually does in me.
I like the dirty approach they took in the orginal Star Wars personally. I'll still most likely pick this game up, simply because it's a continuation of KOTOR and I did like that game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
You do know in numerous interviews that you CAN walk away from the story and do your own thing right?
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
Thought you didn't have any interest in TOR?
Oh yes! I forgot... ^^
Well, I am a SW fan for 25 years... go figure. I still think Bioware needs a strong wake up kick in some departments.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
I agree. In my opinion, at the moment TOR seems to be taking the AOC route when it comes to being based off an IP i.e. it's a superfiscial lightweight representation of the Star Wars universe. They haven't yet captured the "feel" of what it should be like to be actively engaged in a "virtual world" based on the Star Wars IP. I'm not strictly talking about making it "sandbox". I'm referring to the fact that according to BW, EVERYTHING has to be based around the story, leaving no room for anything else to expand.
In short it looks like a guided tour of the KOTOR era that doesn't allow the player much freedom to actively partake in it much unless its part of the story. Of course, all good themepark MMO's need a good story. But a good story is only part of the equation, not the entirety of it. I believe that good gameplay should always take prescedence over a good story.
Putting aside combat mechanics and class progression and that kind of thing, SWG, in its initial incarnation (+space) was pretty much exactly what I envisioned Star Wars universe to feel like to inhabit :
- Worlds, planets, small and large cities, farmers, scoundrels, entertainers, traders and bounty hunters all going on about their business in their own small way and interacting when their paths or interests cross.
- The civil war somewhere in the distance - available for joining but not necessarily in your face everywhere.
- Foreboding and dangerous places our there for the adventurer, rare materials and riches out there for the explorer or tinikerer. Bars and taverns for all of the above to come together.
- Jedi nothing but a rare and distant myth.
- Space as much a part of life as sand and earth.
That's my idea of what it feels like to live in the star wars universe. I've read a lot of books though and while the books and movies focus on the heroes, I understand the the galaxy isn't populated entirely by them. And it doesn't make sense to populate a game with them.
To me, the best source material for creating a star wars MMO are the some of the short story books like Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina, Tales from Jabba's Palace or Tales of the Bounty Hunters. These tells the stories of all the OTHER people that were present in these places and what they were doing. This is the universe of star wars. Luke fighting Vader is totally awesome, but that's just 2 people in a world of billions. You can't create a world of a million Lukes and Vaders.
There are other ways to structure a good star wars MMO. You can have one that entirely war-based. Either clone wars or galactic civil war or whatever. You pick your side and you fight the other side. Either rebel or empire, you get appropriate weapons, appropriate ships, etc. It's based around planetary battles and space battles. No exploration, building, civilization or any of that junk. It's a representation of war, something akin to Tabula Rasa + X-Wing.
Where the game is set in the timeline doesn't matter for the way I'd want to approach it. Jedi shouldn't ever be playable unless ALL player-characters are Jedi / force-sensitive. There are plenty of creative ways to incorporate Jedi into the game without having to play them. You can even add game parts where you take control of a jedi as you help them on a mission or something. But otherwise it just creates way to much of a rift between players. To be done properly jedi must be vastly more powerful than players, which would make it difficult for a combat-based game.
Spot on the money - couldn't have said it better myself.
Why is Star Wars not linear? Its a series of movies. You go from point A to B in movies.
100% Correct. You go from A to B in the Star Wars movies. Except, we're not talking about making a movie, we're talking about making an MMORPG. That's why the difference.
We're also not talking adapting any particular movie into a game, but taking the universe featured the movies and letting people have their own adventures there. Adapting a movie directly would make a badass single-player game - which i'm pretty sure has been done already.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Why is Star Wars not linear? Its a series of movies. You go from point A to B in movies.
100% Correct. You go from A to B in the Star Wars movies. Except, we're not talking about making a movie, we're talking about making an MMORPG. That's why the difference.
We're also not talking adapting any particular movie into a game, but taking the universe featured the movies and letting people have their own adventures there. Adapting a movie directly would make a badass single-player game - which i'm pretty sure has been done already.
Agreed. Films are not MMO's and therefore MMO's should not try to emulate films right down to the finite level of linearity found in a film script.
MMO's are not like those single player games that are based on films which turn out to be nothing but interactive versions of the film script. MMO's are meant to be so much more than that.
Why is Star Wars not linear? Its a series of movies. You go from point A to B in movies.
100% Correct. You go from A to B in the Star Wars movies. Except, we're not talking about making a movie, we're talking about making an MMORPG. That's why the difference.
We're also not talking adapting any particular movie into a game, but taking the universe featured the movies and letting people have their own adventures there. Adapting a movie directly would make a badass single-player game - which i'm pretty sure has been done already.
The text I bolded is what I'm responding to, specifically, and I think it's where the major difference in opinion is originating: Bioware isn't trying to make a Star Wars universe MMORPG. What they're making is a Star Wars movie game, like any of the other movie related Star Wars products that have been released. After I read that post in particular, it made me start looking at TOR in the light of any other movie licensed titles, and while I haven't played it or seen it in person, the evidence is pointing in this direction. Great for them, holding to their vision, but it's not the way I'd want the game developed if my opinion actually mattered.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Agreed. Films are not MMO's and therefore MMO's should not try to emulate films right down to the finite level of linearity found in a film script.
MMO's are not like those single player games that are based on films which turn out to be nothing but interactive versions of the film script. MMO's are meant to be so much more than that.
Fair enough at least for your own personal preference, I beg to differ though. I am for any adaption in an MMORPG as long as it remains an RPG as well as a Massively Multiplayer experience. I'm also for any game that is fun, if it at least has fun elements any game can be anything its makers want it to be IMO.
I have to disagree completely here, old school MMO's sure, that makes sense. New MMO's? They're all shooting for a single player experience in one form or another.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Bioware isn't trying to make a Star Wars universe MMORPG. What they're making is a Star Wars movie game, like any of the other movie related Star Wars products that have been released. After I read that post in particular, it made me start looking at TOR in the light of any other movie licensed titles, and while I haven't played it or seen it in person, the evidence is pointing in this direction. Great for them, holding to their vision, but it's not the way I'd want the game developed if my opinion actually mattered.
Precisely. Personally, I just think it's a terrible idea to try and create a movie with 1,000,000 (or even 50,000) protagonists that all require equal attention and awareness of each other. I just don't think the single-player design works for this.
But they're just doing waht the market dictates, apparently people that didn't like SWG, wanted "the star wars movie experience", so TOR is giving it to them. I just don't quite see the benefit in doing what they are via an MMO as opposed to a single/multi player game.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Precisely. Personally, I just think it's a terrible idea to try and create a movie with 1,000,000 (or even 50,000) protagonists that all require equal attention and awareness of each other. I just don't think the single-player design works for this.
But they're just doing waht the market dictates, apparently people that didn't like SWG, wanted "the star wars movie experience", so TOR is giving it to them. I just don't quite see the benefit in doing what they are via an MMO as opposed to a single/multi player game.
I have to disagree here. Bioware is merely building further upon what's already there, the quest mechanics, but making it so that it is more engaging and less like questgrinding with trivial skip-prone questtext like you see in other MMORPG's these days.
But in SW:TOR you're still the same as in those other MMORPG's, where your character is one of the heroes in quests, helping out and making a difference. Your character being one of the protagonist in quests is nothing new: sure, you might have slain Lord Nagafen or Arthas in those other MMORPG's, but that didn't mean that your group was the only one that did so.
Basically, SW:TOR is enhancing the quest system: so if you dislike your character being the protagonist in quests, then you actually dislike quests in MMORPG's, only SW:TOR makes that dislike more apparent.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
But they're just doing waht the market dictates, apparently people that didn't like SWG, wanted "the star wars movie experience", so TOR is giving it to them. I just don't quite see the benefit in doing what they are via an MMO as opposed to a single/multi player game.
Pre-cu SWG is my favorite MMO of all time, yet I welcome what Bioware is doing.
Lets look at a few points about MMO game play and those who play them.
1- Most players tend to solo during the leveling process, even in SWG most players I met formed what were named solo groups. People only grouped to get better missions from terminals. Then they went their own way.
2- The static NPC"s in most MMO's are stationary, lifeless as well as flat out lacking in any character what so ever.
3- At end game in most MMO's, the only thing to do is:
A: PVP
B: Raid
C: Dungeons
Reroll (playing through the same content everytime)
4- MMORPG's tend to lack one of the most meaningful aspects of a videogame RPG. Compelling story as a backdrop to your adventures. Meaning they lose a lot of what an RPG is.
Now lets look at TOR in comparison.
Tor: As I see it....
1: You can take part in an actual rpg while leveling your character, while not losing the most important aspect of an MMO, other players.
2: NPC's with character in an MMO? Definitely something new there. A welcome change IMO.
3: A: Check
B: Check
C: Check
Check ( you can actually expereince new content, until you've played all the classes.)
E: World Story content.
4: Not this time.
This is not to say I think TOR is a sure-fire hit, or any good. This is my opinion based on the info thus far.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
From what I have gathered so far, BioWare are not envisioning a Star Wars universe at all, let alone trying to create one - they are making an MMORPG game based on Star Wars lore which is supposed to make you feel like you are playing a character in one of the old movies. In a sense, whenever you are logged in, you should feel like you have the camera on you.
^ This: too much of a movie, not enough freeness.
The 4th pillar, story, made it so everything is set on rails. Even class species seems to be limited to humanoid ones as players aren't felt as being able to relate to strange aliens.
They made a Star Wars universe its called the old republic era.
Wow, the people on this website.....
A universe is an era? I fully do not understand what you are trying to say. Neither do you make any sense by talking on the people on this website. My point explained in other words is that BioWare are not creating a SW universe, similarly to the original movies did not have the entire sw universe in them. Only glimpses of that universe, here and there, that the beholder was taken to in timely scenes. They are not trying to simulate a universe; but of course there are environments in the game.
Comments
I would have done things significantly differently, firstly I would have still had classes but not had "factional" classes based off of whether your allegiences were with the Empire , the Republic, the criminal underworld or whoever.
If BioWare are so good at storytelling why could they not have the starting point for the story being the choices that led up to your joining one of the factions in the game? The way things are now you start out being already ensconced in one organisation or the other based on rather arbitary choices, why not start off just as a nobody & then develop as a player & build your class & decide your factional allegience as you go along, even so far as to choosing whether or not you will be a force-sensitive player or not in the course of the game.
With a more open ended system like that you would feel much more that the character on screen was truly your creation & that it reflected your decisions & choices in a much more tangible way than choosing a class right off the bat, of course in the context of a 100 million dollar plus investment there could be a restriction of this "storytold" character creation made through the game's tutorial though it wouldn;t be presented as a tutorial rather as an introduction to your character, would that not be even more cinematic?
Moving onto race choices, well here I have a huge problem with BioWare's psuedo-intellectual bullshit about not being able to storyboard for races that are not very-human, because I think their argument is full of holes, I think it had more to do with the voiceover process and the desire for each character to be voiced within the game than any inability to convey story from the perspective of a race that is very different to humans. So race choices I'd have had a more distinct variety.
Ah, I thought you were talking about the difference of story between sandbox oriented MMO's where story is more of a meta-created development, more a RP/OOC thing in contrast to the dev provided story by quests and such.
But when it comes to MMORPG's: you'll hardly see stories in MMO's like that you are 'the one and only savior', but you're certainly one of the many heroes that make a difference. SW:TOR won't be an exception in this. MMORPG's certainly in quests and such focus on the high life, not as much as you and your character being a farmer in a backward village where days pass by and nothing much ever happens, besides you living your life.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I would make it so the entire game takes place inside of a cardboard box, because I actually have enough of an imagination to create my own content and don't need devs to spoonfeed me with some pre-defined character advancement path.
^ This: too much of a movie, not enough freeness.
The 4th pillar, story, made it so everything is set on rails. Even class species seems to be limited to humanoid ones as players aren't felt as being able to relate to strange aliens.
They made a Star Wars universe its called the old republic era.
Wow, the people on this website.....
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Basically - the Fanboys don't need to read after that - a virtual open world with Star Wars like space combat and freedom, instead of an interactive Bioware movie.
I. Character
Instead of classes I would have gone the skill route. After you have created your character you could spent points on intelligence, strenth, dexterity, vitality, agility aso --->leading to a very unique "naked" character. Since there are no classes you then have to decide what direction you would like to go and then push your skills by actually using them. This means complete freedom in the way how you're designing your alter-ego.
II. Open world
There wouldn't be quests handholding you and guiding you through a linear part of the world. Now this is where Bioware's story philosophy takes place. Instead of using instances, phasing to guide you through a written part I'd use phasing for dynamic events like Anet is doing it. Events in a form that you have to make decissions (whom to help/kill, participate, infiltrate aso.) nothing like "good answer, bad answer or neutral answer" and then watching a boring 1 minute conversation, your actions do matter immediately. The world would be huge and full of danger.
III. Group Play
Since this is going to be a MMORPG I would encourage grouping with nice mechanics. Like in Aion there would be group areas giving you the best exp ratio and also increasing your skills the fastest way. By teaming up with others dynamic events would alos take place in the group areas (see above).
IV. Combat
SKilling hordes of braindead AI enemies isn't heroic its stupid so instead of hack n slay I'd go reaction based like Vanguard till Beta 3. Meaning every enemy would have some abilities that needs to be countered the right way otherwise chances are you going to die real fast.
V. Deep housing STAR WARS
I would make sure that space combat actually feels like Star Wars and not like Moorhuhn in space, therefore including it with an addon focusing on real Star Wars like space combat.
I don't think Swtor is fully the vision Bioware has for it looks mor like they wanted to create Kotor 4,5 and 6 instead of an MMO but EA is pressuring them so they can squeeze out a monthly fee AND on top of that selling stories-quests with dlc.
to sum it up:
My and Bioware's vision are differing in freedom cause linear handholding gameplay is not Star Wars.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Why is Star Wars not linear? Its a series of movies. You go from point A to B in movies. SWG vet much?
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Definitely no oversized lightsabers.
Space combat a lot more sophisticated.
No support for Sith as an open player character. The player can play Jedi - which secretly might be Sith, but you cant tell from the outside.
Jedi would be rare. Meaning every player is able to create a Jedi character, but if you travel to a planet without a group, you are very likely the only Jedi on the planet, unless its one of the special "core" planets with Jedi gathering places.
I would support dynamic server switch. I.e. if you travel to another part of the galaxy, you will end up on a different server. That way everyone will really play on the same virtual world, albeit not on the same server.
Jedi would be able to sense other Jedi on the same planet, or when they are in close proximity in space. They wont be able to tell if the other Jedi is a Sith, though.
This is based on what I *expect* AT THIS MOMENT, based on the current info. If that changes, fine.
- Playable exotic races; I can be human for free all day and I desire to be something odd not just human with other face paint
- free world with quests in the manner of EQ, WOW, LOTRO asf. as equally large part of the game ADDITIONAL to the story part; I don't want to be confined all the time by story story story, sometimes I just want to meet pals and hunt some stuff
- I want to be Uncle Owen at least some times, or any bloke in the SW world; being heroic sometimes is cool, but it loses it's speciality when everyone is hero all the time. How can that be memorable?
- less rigid thinking from Bioware, like making all Jedi into Obi-Wan or Anakin, all Sith into Palpatine or Vader
- open space game
- really complex crafting like in EQ2, SWG or Vanguard
You know the issue with story is: story is great. Like chocolate. But it is the false thinking of our time to assume that when something is good, getting more of something is automatically better. It isn't. Ice cream is good because you DON'T have it all the time. It gets worthy because you eat is rarely, you celebrate it as something. Otherwise you'll just ruin your stomach. Same goes with heroic story. Being a hero always and in a story railroad every time just is dumb.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Yes! Very well said. I mean, I can imagine doing a bit a different drift, but essentially, SWG was in its essence as I imagine the Star Wars universe as well.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I wish there'd be more sandbox elements in it, personally I think that the best possible kind of MMORPG is one where themepark and sandbox elements are blended successfully, so that you can follow questlines and higher quality plots and storylines if you want to, but also do something totally off the beaten path and also have a great time. I heard you can go fully gatherer/crafter in FFXIV, even up to level cap without ever having killed a mob, that sounds great. In a sense, a perfect sandbox/themepark hybrid MMO would be where you can find all the MMO 'lifestyles' and there's enough to do for each type of lifestyle, whether you go questing, crafting, building, exploring, whatever you like.
It seems that exploration will be more possible though in SW:TOR and a bigger deal than in the other MMORPG's, I hope it'll work out. I miss the sense of exploration that I got in EQ, I also liked it how it was possible to discover hidden villages and other hub spots when you strayed away from the guided paths.
And for combat, I wish there would be some option where space combat and land combat combine in a large scale and where they effect each other, sort of like in Return of the Jedi, where simultaneously in space and on land the battle was going on. It could even be done in multiple linked Warzones and scenarios with a number of objectives to accomplish and positions to hold and defend. When done right, it could be as epic as in the movies.
Good point.
I agree, a dessert isn't the full course, and neither is the main dish. It's all in the combination of all the courses, all the components and how they complement eachother.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Thought you didn't have any interest in TOR?
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Don't take my response wrong, you're free to feel how you want, your opinion is your own. The above are simply the thoughts that came to mind after reading your opinions.
-edit, sorry forgot to add to the OP, damn only having 6hrs of sleep in two days sucks..
Personally I would have preferred a post ROTJ time period. That will always be the Star Warsy time period to me. While this old republic stuff has some interesting aspects to it, it doesn't spark the same emotions Star wars usually does in me.
I like the dirty approach they took in the orginal Star Wars personally. I'll still most likely pick this game up, simply because it's a continuation of KOTOR and I did like that game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You do know in numerous interviews that you CAN walk away from the story and do your own thing right?
Oh yes! I forgot... ^^
Well, I am a SW fan for 25 years... go figure. I still think Bioware needs a strong wake up kick in some departments.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I agree. In my opinion, at the moment TOR seems to be taking the AOC route when it comes to being based off an IP i.e. it's a superfiscial lightweight representation of the Star Wars universe. They haven't yet captured the "feel" of what it should be like to be actively engaged in a "virtual world" based on the Star Wars IP. I'm not strictly talking about making it "sandbox". I'm referring to the fact that according to BW, EVERYTHING has to be based around the story, leaving no room for anything else to expand.
In short it looks like a guided tour of the KOTOR era that doesn't allow the player much freedom to actively partake in it much unless its part of the story. Of course, all good themepark MMO's need a good story. But a good story is only part of the equation, not the entirety of it. I believe that good gameplay should always take prescedence over a good story.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Spot on the money - couldn't have said it better myself.
100% Correct. You go from A to B in the Star Wars movies. Except, we're not talking about making a movie, we're talking about making an MMORPG. That's why the difference.
We're also not talking adapting any particular movie into a game, but taking the universe featured the movies and letting people have their own adventures there. Adapting a movie directly would make a badass single-player game - which i'm pretty sure has been done already.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
Agreed. Films are not MMO's and therefore MMO's should not try to emulate films right down to the finite level of linearity found in a film script.
MMO's are not like those single player games that are based on films which turn out to be nothing but interactive versions of the film script. MMO's are meant to be so much more than that.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The text I bolded is what I'm responding to, specifically, and I think it's where the major difference in opinion is originating: Bioware isn't trying to make a Star Wars universe MMORPG. What they're making is a Star Wars movie game, like any of the other movie related Star Wars products that have been released. After I read that post in particular, it made me start looking at TOR in the light of any other movie licensed titles, and while I haven't played it or seen it in person, the evidence is pointing in this direction. Great for them, holding to their vision, but it's not the way I'd want the game developed if my opinion actually mattered.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Fair enough at least for your own personal preference, I beg to differ though. I am for any adaption in an MMORPG as long as it remains an RPG as well as a Massively Multiplayer experience. I'm also for any game that is fun, if it at least has fun elements any game can be anything its makers want it to be IMO.
I have to disagree completely here, old school MMO's sure, that makes sense. New MMO's? They're all shooting for a single player experience in one form or another.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Precisely. Personally, I just think it's a terrible idea to try and create a movie with 1,000,000 (or even 50,000) protagonists that all require equal attention and awareness of each other. I just don't think the single-player design works for this.
But they're just doing waht the market dictates, apparently people that didn't like SWG, wanted "the star wars movie experience", so TOR is giving it to them. I just don't quite see the benefit in doing what they are via an MMO as opposed to a single/multi player game.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
I have to disagree here. Bioware is merely building further upon what's already there, the quest mechanics, but making it so that it is more engaging and less like questgrinding with trivial skip-prone questtext like you see in other MMORPG's these days.
But in SW:TOR you're still the same as in those other MMORPG's, where your character is one of the heroes in quests, helping out and making a difference. Your character being one of the protagonist in quests is nothing new: sure, you might have slain Lord Nagafen or Arthas in those other MMORPG's, but that didn't mean that your group was the only one that did so.
Basically, SW:TOR is enhancing the quest system: so if you dislike your character being the protagonist in quests, then you actually dislike quests in MMORPG's, only SW:TOR makes that dislike more apparent.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Pre-cu SWG is my favorite MMO of all time, yet I welcome what Bioware is doing.
Lets look at a few points about MMO game play and those who play them.
1- Most players tend to solo during the leveling process, even in SWG most players I met formed what were named solo groups. People only grouped to get better missions from terminals. Then they went their own way.
2- The static NPC"s in most MMO's are stationary, lifeless as well as flat out lacking in any character what so ever.
3- At end game in most MMO's, the only thing to do is:
A: PVP
B: Raid
C: Dungeons
4- MMORPG's tend to lack one of the most meaningful aspects of a videogame RPG. Compelling story as a backdrop to your adventures. Meaning they lose a lot of what an RPG is.
Now lets look at TOR in comparison.
Tor: As I see it....
1: You can take part in an actual rpg while leveling your character, while not losing the most important aspect of an MMO, other players.
2: NPC's with character in an MMO? Definitely something new there. A welcome change IMO.
3: A: Check
B: Check
C: Check
E: World Story content.
4: Not this time.
This is not to say I think TOR is a sure-fire hit, or any good. This is my opinion based on the info thus far.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A universe is an era? I fully do not understand what you are trying to say. Neither do you make any sense by talking on the people on this website. My point explained in other words is that BioWare are not creating a SW universe, similarly to the original movies did not have the entire sw universe in them. Only glimpses of that universe, here and there, that the beholder was taken to in timely scenes. They are not trying to simulate a universe; but of course there are environments in the game.