Ten years ago, crafting tended to be designed for and performed by crafters. It was an alternative way to play the game that didn't (necessarily) involving slaughtering thousands of mobs. And crafting was powerful -- in UO, if you wanted a good weapon, you asked someone to make it for you.
The trend recently is to dumb down crafting, to make it quick, cheap, and unsatisfying -- something everyone dabbles in and no one specializes in. And crafted items are, at best, on par with the best quest rewards. We don't make anything for ourselves anymore. We queue up at amusement park rides that hand us what we want when we reach the end.
Couldn't be more true. I played a dedicated crafter in UO...
It's been 13 years.. I still play UO almost exclusively for the crafting. I don't even have a vendor. The RP community is the other reason.
Scary part? UO crafting is, in my opinion, getting BETTER. Many would argue that Imbuing was a mistake for the game, however, the fact that I can make items SO CLOSE to the best ones in the game by collecting the resources by whatever means I deem appropriate (Buy them off another vendor, hunt for them myself) is awesome. The best thing is, given UO's customizability, it's now possible that a crafter can actually craft the best item for THAT CHARACTER, even if it isn't technically the most powerful in the game just adds another layer on top.
The cherry on top? The items a player crafts won't last forever. Eventually they WILL need to be replaced. So if you got a suit crafted to fit your character PERFECTLY, one day, you'll need another one. Granted it may be a long time, but it will happen. Nothing like a reason for crafters to always be available.
And don't even get me started on depth. Look up how to make new stains for UO. The complexity of growing plants, tending to them, cross pollinating, questing and hunting for materials (If you don't want to just buy them)... I defy you to find a more complex and rewarding process.
If older game design was so much better than current, then why aren't older games still thriving? Why are newer games that try to catch the older game feel with updated graphics (Vanguard/Darkfall) barely surviving? If there were enough old school gamers out there who would play a newer version of those games, then I am surprised no companies have jumped on that market. I just don't think there are enough gamers out there to support a major investment into a game that feels like games from almost ten years ago. Change can be difficult to deal with, but it is also inevitable.
Because now it's all about accessiblity. Better doesn't always appeal to the masses because of value (Time or cost).
Why would you ever go to a McDonald's when you could go to a fine, 5 star resturant? Time and accessibility. You can show up at McDonald's in your PJ's and still get a hamburger that does the job for a buck. At the resturant, you may have to wear nice cloths and pay something for it, maybe even have to make a reservation.
The problem with this is, some people appreciate the EXPERIENCE of going to a nice resturant, the environment, the detail, care, and quality of the food. Others just want to fill their stomachs and get on with their day. Either approach is, quite frankly, fine. There's nothing wrong with either. It's just no one is making any more nice resturants, so newer players will never have the opportunity to appreciate a fine dining experience who may have greatly enjoyed it, and older players fondly remember.
Most people like things cheap, fast, and uncomplicated. Hence, the new generation is the most profitable.
Ten years ago, crafting tended to be designed for and performed by crafters. It was an alternative way to play the game that didn't (necessarily) involving slaughtering thousands of mobs. And crafting was powerful -- in UO, if you wanted a good weapon, you asked someone to make it for you.
The trend recently is to dumb down crafting, to make it quick, cheap, and unsatisfying -- something everyone dabbles in and no one specializes in. And crafted items are, at best, on par with the best quest rewards. We don't make anything for ourselves anymore. We queue up at amusement park rides that hand us what we want when we reach the end.
Couldn't be more true. I played a dedicated crafter in UO...
It's been 13 years.. I still play UO almost exclusively for the crafting. I don't even have a vendor. The RP community is the other reason.
Scary part? UO crafting is, in my opinion, getting BETTER. Many would argue that Imbuing was a mistake for the game, however, the fact that I can make items SO CLOSE to the best ones in the game by collecting the resources by whatever means I deem appropriate (Buy them off another vendor, hunt for them myself) is awesome. The best thing is, given UO's customizability, it's now possible that a crafter can actually craft the best item for THAT CHARACTER, even if it isn't technically the most powerful in the game just adds another layer on top.
The cherry on top? The items a player crafts won't last forever. Eventually they WILL need to be replaced. So if you got a suit crafted to fit your character PERFECTLY, one day, you'll need another one. Granted it may be a long time, but it will happen. Nothing like a reason for crafters to always be available.
I'm assuming your talking about the official servers, which I'm a bit out of touch with these days. I'd agree that crafting continues to get better, as well, though my perspective is taken directly from the player ran shards I've been logging into for the past few years. I'm a role player, so I generally choose RP designated free shards to play on, but all of that aside, the custom tools and crafting roles that are still being created to this day are staggering. The shard in particular I'm playing on uses a feat system, and a specialization system for crafting, with the ability to pump out nameable items with a certain percentage that have customizable variables for the different situations they can be used for. Safe to say, on this free shard alone the crafting is better than the experience I've had with WoW and its offspring, or even the MMO's that have tried to closely resemble UO in the recent years, like DFO and MO.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
While I may disagree with a few points made so far, I am enjoying the articles. I find them entertaining and they do actually make me feel a bit nostolgic for older MMO's. They are a nice change from the same old "top 5"'s and other worn out articles here and I can't wait to see more of these.
If older game design was so much better than current, then why aren't older games still thriving? Why are newer games that try to catch the older game feel with updated graphics (Vanguard/Darkfall) barely surviving? If there were enough old school gamers out there who would play a newer version of those games, then I am surprised no companies have jumped on that market. I just don't think there are enough gamers out there to support a major investment into a game that feels like games from almost ten years ago. Change can be difficult to deal with, but it is also inevitable.
Vanguard and Darkfall both have some of the features that were in older games, but both were released in terrible condition. VG is coming up on 4 years old in January and is still the buggiest MMO Ive ever played since 1999. VG design also changed a few months before release from targeting the older core gamer crowd to targeting the larger casual gamer crowd and ended up being something very few players could tolerate.
There aren't any newer MMOs on the market that have even attempted recreating a game with similar features as UO or EQ with updated graphics and game play.
Incredibly biased article that has little to no objectivity.
Also, it almost looks like the guy is comparing only WoW to all old MMORPGs. There are a lot of new, interesting MMORPGs out there. Many of which have more subscriptions than EQ or UO ever had. They have different playstyles and mechanics and offer a multitude of options.
Just because you're in a guild of 500 in WoW that has little to no communication, it does not mean there aren't also excellent guilds that do things together often including raiding, helping each other out, etc. I think EQ2 had one of the best guild systems ever and what, you just ignore it completely?
I don't have the patience to keep listing things, but this was terrible.
This article is within itself pointless. What have we learnt from all this? Oh, that there's another person who wishes it was the year 2000 and UO/EQ is the rage because of course this forum needs more people like that /sarcasm off
You do realise a lot of those so wonderful things you remember, (through rose tinted spectacles), were at times game breakingly boring stuff that noone wants to endure again. People got somewhere in certain games despite the game mechanics. Those things changed, the market became more accessible, and other games became a reality because investors saw opportunity in the market. I can guarantee that the OP is looking forward to at least one MMO soon which may never have become a reality if the industry hadn't evolved.
Yes you may not like things in newer MMO's, (there are things especially in the community side I don't like), but to put a cut off point on something and say, 'XYZ was only good before this point', is very short sighted.
Incredibly biased article that has little to no objectivity.
Also, it almost looks like the guy is comparing only WoW to all old MMORPGs. There are a lot of new, interesting MMORPGs out there. Many of which have more subscriptions than EQ or UO ever had. They have different playstyles and mechanics and offer a multitude of options.
Just because you're in a guild of 500 in WoW that has little to no communication, it does not mean there aren't also excellent guilds that do things together often including raiding, helping each other out, etc. I think EQ2 had one of the best guild systems ever and what, you just ignore it completely?
I don't have the patience to keep listing things, but this was terrible.
More players than EQ or UO ever had? What kind of shitty argument is that. There's a shitload more gamers now then there were back then, it's a growing industry... it's kind of normal they have more subscribers.
You're just being butthurt. He is actually giving new MMO's a rather good score, higher than they deserve.
Back in the real old days of UO, it wasn't about killing big bosses or anything. Free roaming ogres, trolls, liches, skeleton knights, etc all had a random chance of dropping items with good bonuses.
But when you wanted to PvP and couldn't afford those magical gear. Crafting was the next best thing, and it was at an affordable price as well. When you die and lose everything, you could get ressurected in the wilderness and kill some ratman or orcs for some gold and just run around looking for houses with vendors that sold crafted gear, and you were all set.
I had a house that was on the borderline of the town guard's protection. All I can say is, the was cash was flowing in quite nicely from people PvPing nearby. The GM made katanas, war forks, and plated armor sets sold within the day. It even got to the point where people left journal books on my front door steps saying for me to supply more.
Magical items only had a small advantage during PvP fights, but crafted gear was just as good, and besides, are you willing to risk losing all your stuff in a 10-30 second fight?
Now days, everything is colored with insane stats, and the ONLY REAL equivalent crafted gear compared to raid gear is from raiding anyways, just to get the materials needed to craft the items. I'd say thats even worse then raiding for gear already as it is harder to come by collecting tons of materials.
Newer games of the genre are fun for all the family, possibly we will see Wii-motion add-ons: Grandma and that kooky Aunt of yours, stepping up in the living room to play tennis with a goblin. People want to just have fun right? No working or any of that horrible grind required. Perhaps Age of Conan will introduce a dance-mat aspect to proceedings, to hit left simply “boogie on down” that way, to execute a special move, just “throw your hands up in the air like you just don’t care” as they say.
Have to argue with your implication that this is the easy, fun-for-the-whole-family way to play an MMO. From the comments I've seen on this forum, very few of us want to get our asses out of our chairs to play an MMO. I've read comments like, too hard, too long a timeframe to work out in, I'm tired when I get home from work, and I want to relax.
Me, I'm still waiting on my first exercise-induced MMO heart attack, but it seems I'm in the minority. Maybe me and Grandma can team up and beat that tennis goblin.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Ceridith Scoring was fine... up until crafting.
This writer proves that nagging paranoid fear I have had for quite some time now concerning this website... that's it's integrity has been compromised and the staff members (paid and volunteer) of mmorpg.com are required to make it seem that the newer MMOs trump the old ones even if they have to distort the truth to do it. This isn't the first time I have seen articles published here with "Scores" that to me appeared to have been weighted to allow the Newer MMOs look better than they really are.
Money talks and Advertising revenue is king unfortunately, even here. This is the number one reason the MMO genre is so lackluster and bland now in 2010.
Originally posted by Ceridith The crafting in newer games is absolutely horrible compared to that of older MMOs. The absolute best crafting of any MMO to date, is Star Wars Galaxies, and that falls under the "older" generation of MMOs. Second place for crafting goes to Ultima Online. There are other older MMOs like Ryzom and such that others mentioned that were also good. The majority of other older MMOs had crafting that was on par or slightly better than today's myriad of shallow crafting systems. Crafting was by no means amazing in every older MMO, but it was better than than pretty much every single recent MMO. Older MMOs also had UO and SWG which are the undesputable champions of MMO crafting systems. At best, the scores should be reversed. At worst, they should at least be equal because old MMO crafting wasn't any worse than today's shallow and bland crafting. Seriously, fix your scoring.
I also get the impression that the Writer believes it is good and right that a MMO Publisher fully document it's Crafting System and not rely on fansites for the info. I as a crafter know that Crafting knowledge is to be guarded since part of the "Crafting Adventure" is in the discovery of what works and what doesn't. When a Crafter finally figures out the best way to create something they have the reward of exclusive knowledge, and for a MMO Publisher to just openly document how everything should be done for best effect would also remove a significant portion of the entertainment value of the older Crafting systems. Part of the Crafting Game is the search for crafting knowledge and it is obvious to me that this writer has almost no concept of this part of the crafting game.
One of many reasons why I believe crafting systems are so poor in newer MMOs is because there is only one way to do things and there is no mystery left for the Crafter Player to solve, thus part of the reward a Crafter received in older MMOs has been removed.
The Writer instead of realizing this almost applaudes the MMO Publishers for telling everyone how to do it instead of letting us figure it out on our own and reap the rewards for doing so. This is to me the saddest part of the whole article... that the Writer has completely missed the "big picture" of crafting in older MMOs and has basically rubber stamped "the Easy Path".
(fixed a botched edit)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Old school crafting like uo and swg are so far ahead of current mmorpgs its sad. Crafting in those games wasn't a sidenote, it carried the same weight if not more than combat. Hell swg even had bio engineers, a class that could buff other crafting classes' abilities. Crafting,economy,and exploring all used to have equal footing with combat in an mmorpg. That's not the case in most games today and that's definitely not a step in the right direction IMHO.
Wow!!!! I'm going to disagree big time with you when it comes to crafting in older mmos.
Crafting was everything, the older games basically revolved around crafting.
Crafting in todays games are a side mini game while in older games crafting was the life blood!
I honestly think the OP did that on purpose for a reaction even the old school mmo haters know how important crafting was in those games.
After reading that I've honestly lost all interest in the rest of this series...
Edit: Man... I'm generally pissed at this dudes opinion. I just feel really strongly about crafting in older games. From UO to EVE crafting has been much more indepth and generally important game wide than in todays offerings. Only two games could make a case for half decent crafting. Vanguard & Fallen Earth other than that crafting has been worthless imo.
I agree with you.
I used to love crafting in EQ2 back when it first launched.
The game had an amazing crafting system and people needed each other to make it work.... also anyone remember the forge killing people?
Oh such good memories!
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Old school crafting like uo and swg are so far ahead of current mmorpgs its sad. Crafting in those games wasn't a sidenote, it carried the same weight if not more than combat. Hell swg even had bio engineers, a class that could buff other crafting classes' abilities. Crafting,economy,and exploring all used to have equal footing with combat in an mmorpg. That's not the case in most games today and that's definitely not a step in the right direction IMHO.
Well said.
I agree and maybe someday we will see a MMO come out that taps into this and developer's remember to push the social aspect more and not just killing mobs or running dungeons.
I have high hopes that CCP's vampire(Whitewolf) MMO World of Darkness will not have these limitations and problems.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Originally posted by Foomerang Old school crafting like uo and swg are so far ahead of current mmorpgs its sad. Crafting in those games wasn't a sidenote, it carried the same weight if not more than combat. Hell swg even had bio engineers, a class that could buff other crafting classes' abilities. Crafting,economy,and exploring all used to have equal footing with combat in an mmorpg. That's not the case in most games today and that's definitely not a step in the right direction IMHO.
Oh yes I agree completely. MMOs are now so focused on the "Killer" component of content that the other types of interaction in MMOs (social, exploration, achievement, and even crafting as a separate form distinct in it's own right)have faded away and are considered "unprofitable" at best by the MMO Publishers. So much for "streamlining" MMO game design.
Everything in a MMO must be balanced as far as combat, social, exploration, crafting, and overall achievement or the scales are going to tip in not just a particular MMO but also the whole genre since every Publisher is just copy and pasting someone else's ideas for the most part... and that is what has happened in the last 5 years or so.... the scales have tipped and there is very little balance in content at all. The result is a big mess. It is a balanced MIX that makes a great MMO and this balance cannot not be achieved in a MMO by "streamlining" or budget cuts.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Incredibly biased article that has little to no objectivity.
Also, it almost looks like the guy is comparing only WoW to all old MMORPGs. There are a lot of new, interesting MMORPGs out there. Many of which have more subscriptions than EQ or UO ever had. They have different playstyles and mechanics and offer a multitude of options.
Just because you're in a guild of 500 in WoW that has little to no communication, it does not mean there aren't also excellent guilds that do things together often including raiding, helping each other out, etc. I think EQ2 had one of the best guild systems ever and what, you just ignore it completely?
I don't have the patience to keep listing things, but this was terrible.
More players than EQ or UO ever had? What kind of shitty argument is that. There's a shitload more gamers now then there were back then, it's a growing industry... it's kind of normal they have more subscribers.
You're just being butthurt. He is actually giving new MMO's a rather good score, higher than they deserve.
More players does not equal better game. But the multitude of titles out right now with similar subscription numbers as the original games shows that yes, there is a market for the newer MMORPGs. And it's thriving.
But this article doesn't address any of the issues properly. The poster makes it quite clear that they have played a very limited number of MMORPGs extensively. With such limited experience in the various "new games" that are out, I find his observations in an overall sense laughable at best.
My most played "old school" game was DaoC. And I agree somewhat with the author with respect to this game, because with the original crafting in DaoC many people would use macros to craft because it was so tedious. You did a lot of repetitve crafting in DaoC and it took time (or macros) and a lot of gold. Someone being the best crafter usually meant that they macro'd crafting. No, the macros were technically not "legal" in game, but no one really cared since most people didn't want to spend the time leveling their crafting skill manually and yes, there was a demand for crafted goods.
If old school crafting pushed people to use macros to become the best at crafting, then was the old school crafting really that good? (Maybe this only applies to DaoC.) I suppose the fact that you could craft decent items is still better than many games today, but the fact that few people wanted to level crafting manually was not a plus. Crafting still has room for innovation today that would make it better than "old school" games.
Since I didn't play EQ, I have no idea if it was the same for this or other older games.
I have enjoyed this series. I got a laugh out of this one where it talked about Grandma busting out the Wii to get some gobby tennis in. It may sound silly but it's not too far fetched. People complain because they don't want to spend time in a game for whatever reason and we end up with easy mode trash. Under all the bullshit that is spewed as a reason, the bottom line is that people want to see faster progression for less gameplay. Don't have time to play very often? Speed up the combat and leveling curve so I don't have to. That way I can do as little as possible in as little time as possible and still feel like I am..."L337 wtf bbq sauce."
I prefer a CoD or Ghost Recon game over a Wii shooter any day.
Guild description in the article was dead on. Although we have better tools to manage the guilds and more fluffy stuff to go with them such as guild halls and achievements, guilds themselves have gone into the shitter for the most part.
Crafting imo is a double edged sword here. While crafting does mean a good deal less now than it used to the interface to craft in the newer games is more entertaining to me (Vanguard, EQ2, or FFXIV).
easily best overall crafting was in horizons but i thought some of the things in swg were very good.
as to the games ive played virtually all of the genre and easily the game i loved the most was old eq. ppl today want everything handed to them on a platter. they want to brag about being 1st to the cap. they want to start with the god slaying sword and not have to work for it.
well i used to enjoy seeing ppl with the unique gear. i knew they had to have done something special to have gotten it. yes it took work to do things in eq but you knew ppl actually had to earn it as it wasnt just given to them. when you died you could lose your lvl and gear if you didnt get your corpse back soon enuf. corpse runs were honestly fun for me and believe me i died many times helping others get theirs back. as it is daoc started the downturn when they made it so you couldnt lose your lvl when you died. i knew that was the beginning of the end and its been proven out. i agree with the author completely with the fact that guilds were overall much better old school. travel was a huge part of the game. today its click a book or some such. you actually had to learn the game and where things were. today ppl just want to get ported there and kill things.
all the problems in mmos are directly taken from real life in that everybody wants something for nothing and doesnt want to have to put any work into anything.
Originally posted by Tinea My most played "old school" game was DaoC. And I agree somewhat with the author with respect to this game, because with the original crafting in DaoC many people would use macros to craft because it was so tedious. You did a lot of repetitve crafting in DaoC and it took time (or macros) and a lot of gold. Someone being the best crafter usually meant that they macro'd crafting. No, the macros were technically not "legal" in game, but no one really cared since most people didn't want to spend the time leveling their crafting skill manually and yes, there was a demand for crafted goods. If old school crafting pushed people to use macros to become the best at crafting, then was the old school crafting really that good? (Maybe this only applies to DaoC.) I suppose the fact that you could craft decent items is still better than many games today, but the fact that few people wanted to level crafting manually was not a plus. Crafting still has room for innovation today that would make it better than "old school" games. Since I didn't play EQ, I have no idea if it was the same for this or other older games.
I think you answered your own query. Your example really only applies to daoc. See the other references to uo and swg.
The point made about the guilds of old is spot on. The best guild I was ever a member of was Black Watch <BW> in SWG way back in the game's first year of existence. I was able to learn the basics(and not so basics) of that game from BW. Guilds have always been important to not only the individual player but for the game's success. Being part of a "good" guild just might be the difference between a player quitting a deep and complex MMO(such as SWG at launch or current Eve Online) and becoming a "lifer":)
This article series is seriously hurting my old school gamer pride. I'm dead serious.
I know all this thing about "old school pride" sounds silly, but the late mmo market is so crappy , its not funny.
The scores should be 100-10 to the old games, and the 10 points for thew new ones are just for the graphics.
Playing: Starcraft II. Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft. Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
Not to totally disagree with those that disagree with the OP on the matter of crafting... old school crafting did serve a purpose in early games... he cites UO, but I also remember in DAOC crafting allowed you to make some great gear, well before Mythic screwed the whole game with TOA. I took from him that new MMO have better developed crafting systems then their old school predecessors - but like many of you I see no point as the stuff players can make often is useless for endgame.
if you haven't played lineage2 with a banch of friends, conquering some castoles an protecting them in a net cafe after having some whiskey's, then you haven't got enough fun with mmorpg's
Comments
It's been 13 years.. I still play UO almost exclusively for the crafting. I don't even have a vendor. The RP community is the other reason.
Scary part? UO crafting is, in my opinion, getting BETTER. Many would argue that Imbuing was a mistake for the game, however, the fact that I can make items SO CLOSE to the best ones in the game by collecting the resources by whatever means I deem appropriate (Buy them off another vendor, hunt for them myself) is awesome. The best thing is, given UO's customizability, it's now possible that a crafter can actually craft the best item for THAT CHARACTER, even if it isn't technically the most powerful in the game just adds another layer on top.
The cherry on top? The items a player crafts won't last forever. Eventually they WILL need to be replaced. So if you got a suit crafted to fit your character PERFECTLY, one day, you'll need another one. Granted it may be a long time, but it will happen. Nothing like a reason for crafters to always be available.
And don't even get me started on depth. Look up how to make new stains for UO. The complexity of growing plants, tending to them, cross pollinating, questing and hunting for materials (If you don't want to just buy them)... I defy you to find a more complex and rewarding process.
Because now it's all about accessiblity. Better doesn't always appeal to the masses because of value (Time or cost).
Why would you ever go to a McDonald's when you could go to a fine, 5 star resturant? Time and accessibility. You can show up at McDonald's in your PJ's and still get a hamburger that does the job for a buck. At the resturant, you may have to wear nice cloths and pay something for it, maybe even have to make a reservation.
The problem with this is, some people appreciate the EXPERIENCE of going to a nice resturant, the environment, the detail, care, and quality of the food. Others just want to fill their stomachs and get on with their day. Either approach is, quite frankly, fine. There's nothing wrong with either. It's just no one is making any more nice resturants, so newer players will never have the opportunity to appreciate a fine dining experience who may have greatly enjoyed it, and older players fondly remember.
Most people like things cheap, fast, and uncomplicated. Hence, the new generation is the most profitable.
I'm assuming your talking about the official servers, which I'm a bit out of touch with these days. I'd agree that crafting continues to get better, as well, though my perspective is taken directly from the player ran shards I've been logging into for the past few years. I'm a role player, so I generally choose RP designated free shards to play on, but all of that aside, the custom tools and crafting roles that are still being created to this day are staggering. The shard in particular I'm playing on uses a feat system, and a specialization system for crafting, with the ability to pump out nameable items with a certain percentage that have customizable variables for the different situations they can be used for. Safe to say, on this free shard alone the crafting is better than the experience I've had with WoW and its offspring, or even the MMO's that have tried to closely resemble UO in the recent years, like DFO and MO.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
While I may disagree with a few points made so far, I am enjoying the articles. I find them entertaining and they do actually make me feel a bit nostolgic for older MMO's. They are a nice change from the same old "top 5"'s and other worn out articles here and I can't wait to see more of these.
Vanguard and Darkfall both have some of the features that were in older games, but both were released in terrible condition. VG is coming up on 4 years old in January and is still the buggiest MMO Ive ever played since 1999. VG design also changed a few months before release from targeting the older core gamer crowd to targeting the larger casual gamer crowd and ended up being something very few players could tolerate.
There aren't any newer MMOs on the market that have even attempted recreating a game with similar features as UO or EQ with updated graphics and game play.
Incredibly biased article that has little to no objectivity.
Also, it almost looks like the guy is comparing only WoW to all old MMORPGs. There are a lot of new, interesting MMORPGs out there. Many of which have more subscriptions than EQ or UO ever had. They have different playstyles and mechanics and offer a multitude of options.
Just because you're in a guild of 500 in WoW that has little to no communication, it does not mean there aren't also excellent guilds that do things together often including raiding, helping each other out, etc. I think EQ2 had one of the best guild systems ever and what, you just ignore it completely?
I don't have the patience to keep listing things, but this was terrible.
This article is within itself pointless. What have we learnt from all this? Oh, that there's another person who wishes it was the year 2000 and UO/EQ is the rage because of course this forum needs more people like that /sarcasm off
You do realise a lot of those so wonderful things you remember, (through rose tinted spectacles), were at times game breakingly boring stuff that noone wants to endure again. People got somewhere in certain games despite the game mechanics. Those things changed, the market became more accessible, and other games became a reality because investors saw opportunity in the market. I can guarantee that the OP is looking forward to at least one MMO soon which may never have become a reality if the industry hadn't evolved.
Yes you may not like things in newer MMO's, (there are things especially in the community side I don't like), but to put a cut off point on something and say, 'XYZ was only good before this point', is very short sighted.
Never played it, so no comment.
More players than EQ or UO ever had? What kind of shitty argument is that. There's a shitload more gamers now then there were back then, it's a growing industry... it's kind of normal they have more subscribers.
You're just being butthurt. He is actually giving new MMO's a rather good score, higher than they deserve.
Yeah, about the crafting part...
Back in the real old days of UO, it wasn't about killing big bosses or anything. Free roaming ogres, trolls, liches, skeleton knights, etc all had a random chance of dropping items with good bonuses.
But when you wanted to PvP and couldn't afford those magical gear. Crafting was the next best thing, and it was at an affordable price as well. When you die and lose everything, you could get ressurected in the wilderness and kill some ratman or orcs for some gold and just run around looking for houses with vendors that sold crafted gear, and you were all set.
I had a house that was on the borderline of the town guard's protection. All I can say is, the was cash was flowing in quite nicely from people PvPing nearby. The GM made katanas, war forks, and plated armor sets sold within the day. It even got to the point where people left journal books on my front door steps saying for me to supply more.
Magical items only had a small advantage during PvP fights, but crafted gear was just as good, and besides, are you willing to risk losing all your stuff in a 10-30 second fight?
Now days, everything is colored with insane stats, and the ONLY REAL equivalent crafted gear compared to raid gear is from raiding anyways, just to get the materials needed to craft the items. I'd say thats even worse then raiding for gear already as it is harder to come by collecting tons of materials.
Newer games of the genre are fun for all the family, possibly we will see Wii-motion add-ons: Grandma and that kooky Aunt of yours, stepping up in the living room to play tennis with a goblin. People want to just have fun right? No working or any of that horrible grind required. Perhaps Age of Conan will introduce a dance-mat aspect to proceedings, to hit left simply “boogie on down” that way, to execute a special move, just “throw your hands up in the air like you just don’t care” as they say.
Have to argue with your implication that this is the easy, fun-for-the-whole-family way to play an MMO. From the comments I've seen on this forum, very few of us want to get our asses out of our chairs to play an MMO. I've read comments like, too hard, too long a timeframe to work out in, I'm tired when I get home from work, and I want to relax.
Me, I'm still waiting on my first exercise-induced MMO heart attack, but it seems I'm in the minority. Maybe me and Grandma can team up and beat that tennis goblin.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
This writer proves that nagging paranoid fear I have had for quite some time now concerning this website... that's it's integrity has been compromised and the staff members (paid and volunteer) of mmorpg.com are required to make it seem that the newer MMOs trump the old ones even if they have to distort the truth to do it. This isn't the first time I have seen articles published here with "Scores" that to me appeared to have been weighted to allow the Newer MMOs look better than they really are.
Money talks and Advertising revenue is king unfortunately, even here. This is the number one reason the MMO genre is so lackluster and bland now in 2010.
I also get the impression that the Writer believes it is good and right that a MMO Publisher fully document it's Crafting System and not rely on fansites for the info. I as a crafter know that Crafting knowledge is to be guarded since part of the "Crafting Adventure" is in the discovery of what works and what doesn't. When a Crafter finally figures out the best way to create something they have the reward of exclusive knowledge, and for a MMO Publisher to just openly document how everything should be done for best effect would also remove a significant portion of the entertainment value of the older Crafting systems. Part of the Crafting Game is the search for crafting knowledge and it is obvious to me that this writer has almost no concept of this part of the crafting game.
One of many reasons why I believe crafting systems are so poor in newer MMOs is because there is only one way to do things and there is no mystery left for the Crafter Player to solve, thus part of the reward a Crafter received in older MMOs has been removed.
The Writer instead of realizing this almost applaudes the MMO Publishers for telling everyone how to do it instead of letting us figure it out on our own and reap the rewards for doing so. This is to me the saddest part of the whole article... that the Writer has completely missed the "big picture" of crafting in older MMOs and has basically rubber stamped "the Easy Path".
(fixed a botched edit)
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Old school crafting like uo and swg are so far ahead of current mmorpgs its sad. Crafting in those games wasn't a sidenote, it carried the same weight if not more than combat. Hell swg even had bio engineers, a class that could buff other crafting classes' abilities. Crafting,economy,and exploring all used to have equal footing with combat in an mmorpg. That's not the case in most games today and that's definitely not a step in the right direction IMHO.
I agree with you.
I used to love crafting in EQ2 back when it first launched.
The game had an amazing crafting system and people needed each other to make it work.... also anyone remember the forge killing people?
Oh such good memories!
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Well said.
I agree and maybe someday we will see a MMO come out that taps into this and developer's remember to push the social aspect more and not just killing mobs or running dungeons.
I have high hopes that CCP's vampire(Whitewolf) MMO World of Darkness will not have these limitations and problems.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Oh yes I agree completely. MMOs are now so focused on the "Killer" component of content that the other types of interaction in MMOs (social, exploration, achievement, and even crafting as a separate form distinct in it's own right)have faded away and are considered "unprofitable" at best by the MMO Publishers. So much for "streamlining" MMO game design.
Everything in a MMO must be balanced as far as combat, social, exploration, crafting, and overall achievement or the scales are going to tip in not just a particular MMO but also the whole genre since every Publisher is just copy and pasting someone else's ideas for the most part... and that is what has happened in the last 5 years or so.... the scales have tipped and there is very little balance in content at all. The result is a big mess. It is a balanced MIX that makes a great MMO and this balance cannot not be achieved in a MMO by "streamlining" or budget cuts.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
More players does not equal better game. But the multitude of titles out right now with similar subscription numbers as the original games shows that yes, there is a market for the newer MMORPGs. And it's thriving.
But this article doesn't address any of the issues properly. The poster makes it quite clear that they have played a very limited number of MMORPGs extensively. With such limited experience in the various "new games" that are out, I find his observations in an overall sense laughable at best.
My most played "old school" game was DaoC. And I agree somewhat with the author with respect to this game, because with the original crafting in DaoC many people would use macros to craft because it was so tedious. You did a lot of repetitve crafting in DaoC and it took time (or macros) and a lot of gold. Someone being the best crafter usually meant that they macro'd crafting. No, the macros were technically not "legal" in game, but no one really cared since most people didn't want to spend the time leveling their crafting skill manually and yes, there was a demand for crafted goods.
If old school crafting pushed people to use macros to become the best at crafting, then was the old school crafting really that good? (Maybe this only applies to DaoC.) I suppose the fact that you could craft decent items is still better than many games today, but the fact that few people wanted to level crafting manually was not a plus. Crafting still has room for innovation today that would make it better than "old school" games.
Since I didn't play EQ, I have no idea if it was the same for this or other older games.
I have enjoyed this series. I got a laugh out of this one where it talked about Grandma busting out the Wii to get some gobby tennis in. It may sound silly but it's not too far fetched. People complain because they don't want to spend time in a game for whatever reason and we end up with easy mode trash. Under all the bullshit that is spewed as a reason, the bottom line is that people want to see faster progression for less gameplay. Don't have time to play very often? Speed up the combat and leveling curve so I don't have to. That way I can do as little as possible in as little time as possible and still feel like I am..."L337 wtf bbq sauce."
I prefer a CoD or Ghost Recon game over a Wii shooter any day.
Guild description in the article was dead on. Although we have better tools to manage the guilds and more fluffy stuff to go with them such as guild halls and achievements, guilds themselves have gone into the shitter for the most part.
Crafting imo is a double edged sword here. While crafting does mean a good deal less now than it used to the interface to craft in the newer games is more entertaining to me (Vanguard, EQ2, or FFXIV).
easily best overall crafting was in horizons but i thought some of the things in swg were very good.
as to the games ive played virtually all of the genre and easily the game i loved the most was old eq. ppl today want everything handed to them on a platter. they want to brag about being 1st to the cap. they want to start with the god slaying sword and not have to work for it.
well i used to enjoy seeing ppl with the unique gear. i knew they had to have done something special to have gotten it. yes it took work to do things in eq but you knew ppl actually had to earn it as it wasnt just given to them. when you died you could lose your lvl and gear if you didnt get your corpse back soon enuf. corpse runs were honestly fun for me and believe me i died many times helping others get theirs back. as it is daoc started the downturn when they made it so you couldnt lose your lvl when you died. i knew that was the beginning of the end and its been proven out. i agree with the author completely with the fact that guilds were overall much better old school. travel was a huge part of the game. today its click a book or some such. you actually had to learn the game and where things were. today ppl just want to get ported there and kill things.
all the problems in mmos are directly taken from real life in that everybody wants something for nothing and doesnt want to have to put any work into anything.
The point made about the guilds of old is spot on. The best guild I was ever a member of was Black Watch <BW> in SWG way back in the game's first year of existence. I was able to learn the basics(and not so basics) of that game from BW. Guilds have always been important to not only the individual player but for the game's success. Being part of a "good" guild just might be the difference between a player quitting a deep and complex MMO(such as SWG at launch or current Eve Online) and becoming a "lifer":)
This article series is seriously hurting my old school gamer pride. I'm dead serious.
I know all this thing about "old school pride" sounds silly, but the late mmo market is so crappy
, its not funny.
The scores should be 100-10 to the old games, and the 10 points for thew new ones are just for the graphics.
Playing: Starcraft II.
Played: Tibia, Ragnarok Online, Ultima Online, Guild Wars, World of Warcraft.
Wanna play: Guild Wars 2, SW:TOR, Final Fantasy XIV, Diablo III.
Not to totally disagree with those that disagree with the OP on the matter of crafting... old school crafting did serve a purpose in early games... he cites UO, but I also remember in DAOC crafting allowed you to make some great gear, well before Mythic screwed the whole game with TOA. I took from him that new MMO have better developed crafting systems then their old school predecessors - but like many of you I see no point as the stuff players can make often is useless for endgame.
if you haven't played lineage2 with a banch of friends, conquering some castoles an protecting them in a net cafe after having some whiskey's, then you haven't got enough fun with mmorpg's