What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
I don't understand the logic. A book is a single player experience. It has a beginning, middle, and an end. There is not deviation.
I also don't understand why players can only imagine what's in front of them. Take SWTOR for example, do the story and level your toon, but RP that toon however you want. Why feel so restricted by the story that Bioware is creating?
My 2 cents, I don't want to feel average. I don't care if thousands of other players are going through the same story and classes. I care about my experiences in playing only. That's why I play. If I play with friends its fun, if I play solo, its fun. But during that short time I want to feel like I'm doing something heroic.
I could care less about chopping down trees or diging in the dirt. I want bust some skulls and look cool doing it because it is something I cannot do in real life. If I wanted complexity I would just keep working my real job as I get enough of that working with developers, managers, system engineers, testers, and users.
In the end it boils down to each person's opinion in what they find fun and no one should be forced to play something they don't want to. If you don't like the game or don't like what a future game will be then don't bother with it. The chances of it completely flipping it's design are close to nil.
Well it's the same reason why most people stop real cooking and make pizza instead. It gets the result faster.
In a sandbox you can just be as heroic, but it isn't delivered to you on a platter. I mean, I don't want UO or EQ era gaming either, but at a certain point it is no longer me. I need to identify to feel the role matters and the more narrowed down the less likely it is. It's this "if you can't imagine to date Leia, you prolly can't play SWTOR" mentality which I just rebel against. A heroic story does mean nothing to me, when it's somebody else's dream. I understand your desire to do heroic deeds. I want to do that too, really. But not all the time. Sometimes I just want to craft a chair or do some stuff. I want much to chose from and much to do. I don't want to play a preset story like in some theatre rehearsal.
And yes, I can roleplay a totally different background in TOR and ignore the story, but thats like pretending a movie ended well, when it just didn't. I fail to see the point of then watching the movie altogether.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
I wouldn't call some guy griefing & camping your corpse "player driven content". If so, that kind of content sucks and i much prefer professional produced content.
Limitless does not equal to GOOD. I would much rather have good content for a month, then switch to another game than playing shitting content for a year.
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
I wouldn't call some guy griefing & camping your corpse "player driven content". If so, that kind of content sucks and i much prefer professional produced content.
Limitless does not equal to GOOD. I would much rather have good content for a month, then switch to another game than playing shitting content for a year.
Your post is full of baseless assumptions, sir. Are you enraged?
Originally posted by Sroek Originally posted by Horusra Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
I really wouldn't count PvP or gathering/crafting limitless.
Wrong answer, because in themeparks you are not a hero, you just grind. The truth is people like grinding on a set path because people are conditioned not to be free.
Think about school, what is it really, it is preparing you for the money grind. In school you basically do repetative tasks, either take tests, write papers, or work on projects that the teacher either pre-plans or aproves of. You basically just do this over, and over, and over, and over again for 13-17 years until this is all you know.
Then there is work, basically work is a money grind. You do the same repetative BS over, and over, and over, and over again until you die.
I mean there are even levels in this system, 1'st grade, 2'nd grade, 3'rd grade or in work intern, associate, assistant manager, etc...
Themeparks work because they replicate our lives, we are such regimented people that freedom without the direction of the goal grind confuses us. MMORPGs do not help us fulfill any fantasies, because we are really too conditioned to have any real fantasies, let alone pursue them. The MMORPG is a social distraction and nothing more. It is facebook and a replication of the real world grind fest.
Sandbox MMORPGs fail because they are made by artists who lack this conditioning. Look at Raph Koster, all into writing poetry and music and creative crap. He is not a normal human being! Normal human beings don't create, we watch our programs on TV by time slot, we fix our lives so we always go out on the weekends and drink at a bar with people we can't even stand to be around but do it because it is part of our established pattern.
We don't want freedom, we want routine. That is why Sandboxes fail, they don't guide us into a preset routine.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Too bad this logic is lost to him.
Yes, but it's not an illusion.
If you effect the way other people play, where's the illusion?
Axehilt, I believe you play EVE right? Go into 0.0 space that isn't owned by blues. There is no illusion, you'll die if you stay there long enough, without a question. You cannot dock at their stations and if your group of people wanted to, you could take that 0.0 space and dock at their stations, build JBs in their spots, etc. etc.
It's not illusion when you directly effect other people's gameplay by actions you take in the game. I'm not talking about annoying other players, because in EVE those are actual game mechanics you're using to effect the other person's gameplay. Those who you annoy in a game like WoW or any other game that's the same with a different name, those people can log off and you'll forget about them, the person who's annoying will eventually go away. Log off in the wrong 0.0 and you're still in the same danger as when you log back on.
Unless you consider the whole game itself an illusion, on some off the planet Plato Philosophical type crap. lol
Well my post was about Themeparks and Good Fiction Books. Both are illusions, yet the illusions matter because they're real experiences at the same time.
And yeah, the other guy had a good point too that control in a World PVP game is the same illusion of control but on a different scale of permanency.
As for the Unnecessarily Philosophical take on things, there are basically two viewpoints:
Cynic: No actions in MMOs (themepark or sandbox) matter, they're all illusions and disconnected from reality, and none of it matters.
Optimist: Every experience is real, and can evoke real emotions/responses, so why nitpick the specifics of the experience (be it sandbox, themepark, or real life)?
Personally I think the Cynical take very easily slides off a cliff into complete nihilism, but I suppose there's a bit of truth to both views.
But yeah, unnecessarily philosophical
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Has very little to do with it. 99.9% of sandbox games are not high quality productions. Eve is a high-quallity production sandbox game, and is very popular as a result.
If someone like Bioware, Blizzard, or Bethesda made a sandbox MMO it would be very popular.
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
Well it's not limitless, but it helps. I mean there's a finite number of ways players can express themselves within games, at least in ways which have a significant gameplay impact.
Also sandbox games don't have the monopoly on it -- getting a different party playing different classes each run was why I re-ran WOW dungeons so much. So themeparks have that player dynamic and content. Sandboxes have more player dynamic (slightly) and considerably less content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
Well it's not limitless, but it helps. I mean there's a finite number of ways players can express themselves within games, at least in ways which have a significant gameplay impact.
Also sandbox games don't have the monopoly on it -- getting a different party playing different classes each run was why I re-ran WOW dungeons so much. So themeparks have that player dynamic and content. Sandboxes have more player dynamic (slightly) and considerably less content.
Different classes - same content: is still the same content. That is not the same as what Sroek was stating.
Sandboxes run the problem of not holding the hand. In general, people are sheep - they want to be shephered along with the rest of the herd.
Themeparks combine the repetitiveness of themepark rides and carnival games. If all the loot dropped for everybody on the first run...guess what?
The problem you will run into with sandboxes outside of the lack of hand-holding would be dominance. Group A arises. Takes power. This limits the options for other groups.
Just like we can never hav an actual completely free market - we cannot have a pure sandbox.
Games need more sandbox elements while retaining some themepark elements. Sandboxes suck. Themeparks suck.
Why people keep arguing for one or the other is beyond me...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Besides second life there are no other sandbox mmorpgs. They are all themed. Forgetting to add npcs & quests to a mmo with otherwise deep appealing gameplay is lazyness, not sandbox. Its as if I would throw my weekend D&D group a notepad and a core rulebook, tell them to do what they want and go play a video game with occasional checking if they are all right.
Besides second life there are no other sandbox mmorpgs. They are all themed. Forgetting to add npcs & quests to a mmo with otherwise deep appealing gameplay is lazyness, not sandbox. Its as if I would throw my weekend D&D group a notepad and a core rulebook, tell them to do what they want and go play a video game with occasional checking if they are all right.
In pointing out an issue in regard to sandboxes, you have also pointed out a couple of issues in regard to themeparks: rails and repetition.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Besides second life there are no other sandbox mmorpgs. They are all themed. Forgetting to add npcs & quests to a mmo with otherwise deep appealing gameplay is lazyness, not sandbox. Its as if I would throw my weekend D&D group a notepad and a core rulebook, tell them to do what they want and go play a video game with occasional checking if they are all right.
In pointing out an issue in regard to sandboxes, you have also pointed out a couple of issues in regard to themeparks: rails and repetition.
*nod*
There is just too much quantity on the mmo market. The sad thing is that most of them just lacks the little something the next one has to keep me staying. Very personal opinion of course.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
Hopefully this will be clearer:
Bad Fiction: A book that reads, "He saved the world. He saved the world again."
Bad Fiction: A game where you save the world again and again, back to back.
The quality of the fiction (the "illusion") determines the quality of the participant's experience. Therefore the illusion matters.
The contrast between your accomplishments already exists in any themepark I can recall playing. That's one of the many factors of fiction quality, in fact!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The biggest problem i have with sandbox games is the following:
The world itself seems rather dead: yes i know i can make up my own stories but it still has to be in this world and it will be the same thing. I went and kill this creature, i went into this cave and killed that creature. I got a very good imagination i think. But the world itself feels more empty to me then one with alot of npcs and stories that are "on the rails".
It feels like i'm placed in this world where the npc walk around and sell stuff but nothing really happens. I can't walk over and start building a house. I have to fight creatures (i'm taking MO as a reference.)
Theres no real army to fight for if i want to. I"m just one guy or girl in a world fighting monsters.
Most combat oriented MMO do tend to fall into either ganking or one side wins. It's not balanced to me.
Besides most people like to be entertained by a good story and not have to make everything up on their own. I make up stories all the time in my head but for some reason when i start a game i can't be bothered and 'im bored within 5 mins. Yeah i'm not giving the game the chance it needs. But thats because the game isn't hooking me into it's game play.
I think one of my teachers said once that you need to "grab" your audience in the first few lines or you lose a lot of potential readers.
I think thats the problem why sandbox games can't get people. You are dropped into the world and told make your own adventure. Theres no hook line or sinker.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
The closest I personally came to playing a samebox game was UO. It's not about being a hero, it's not about lofty ambitions to rule over anything. It's about carving out a place in the world and being able to lose yourself in it for a while. If you hit a wall, it won't be long because tools are in place to over come it. Most mmos looking to label themselves sandbox games are trying too hard to look into petty things.
I've played EvE and it's NOT sandbox. I was there for the beta and I can tell you. I would never consider a cold, lifeless void like EvE a sandbox. I cannot connect with something so inorganic. Your skills are set it and forget it, your shell is interchangable and frequently replaced. It holds no real value for the players themselves and there for can never form a true bond between user and player. I want to see my character interact with his environment. I want to show a reflection of my personality through my character's physical appearance as well as his mental persona. No, EvE is a player-driven, graphically enhanced, online free market experience with PvP added so players can "vent out" their frustrations from time to time. Astroids + chat room + AH = EvE.
Those things dont stop EVE being a "sandbox", they just make it a game you personally dont much like. EVE is fairly (although not completely) sandboxy by any reasonable measure.
PS EVE has changed quite a bit since Beta, and next summer it will change even more. Will it suddenly become a sandbox in your eyes when it acquires Avatars?
With respect to the posters above, they have a point. What people generally want from a game is to be made to feel that they are doing something difficult and/or dangerous, but at the same time, they want to pretty much always succeed and never really lose anything of consequence. To make a very wide generalisation, in "theme park" games, we're constantly told that we're heroic and special, but never do anything really heroic or special, whereas in "sandpark" games, no one gives a damb about us unless we really do something special, and also the "difficult and dangerous" things are actually hard and we will frequently fail, because other players are trying their best to make them so.
In short, most people want to be told a story in their relaxation time. They want to be entertained. Rather fewer want to make their own story. And as I've said frequently before, there's nothing wrong with either choice. It's not a moral decision. It's not "basement dweller" vs "lazy gamer". It's not "new school" vs "old school". It's not "playground bully" vs "cowardly carebear". It's purely a case of personal preference, and the OP might do well to remember that.
Sandboxes don't appeal to the masses because the masses are unimaginative people who need to have their hands held as they are guided through a rigidly structured gaming experience. Add to that the fact that the majority of the current crop of gamers are risk averse and anti competition and it becomes glaringly obvious why most steer away from sandbox mmo's.
The biggest factor though is time, most casuals (which make up most of the consumer base) do not want to spend umpteen hours/weeks/days/months developing a character towards a specific goal within a player community. They want to jump in from day one and pwn npcs to get shiny things.
Picking up on some earlier comments: Yes EVE is a sandbox, that it is not specifically your cup of tea does not change what the game is. Yes sandboxes have plenty of content, if all you see them as is big empty worlds then you're doing it wrong and should stick to themeparks.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Sandboxes don't appeal to the masses because the masses are unimaginative people who need to have their hands held as they are guided through a rigidly structured gaming experience. Add to that the fact that the majority of the current crop of gamers are risk averse and anti competition and it becomes glaringly obvious why most steer away from sandbox mmo's.
Its not that most people aren't and are incapable of being imaginative, its that society is telling us to stop being imaginative, stop taking risk, and stop being competitive. I can't count how many times I've seen people I thought were dumb or uncreative pop up with some awesome question, or idea.
I don't know about other countries, but look at what people teach US kids nowadays ( I'm not that old, so I literally saw the changes right before my eyes): "Kids everyones a winner." "Your drawing is the most beutiful in the world, (you 10 year old who can handle being told that you are bad at something)."
It was one thing when everybody got a ribbon, but everyone got different ribbons saying number 1,2, 3, etc...now everyone gets the same stupid ribbon for simply participating. This destroys the desire to be competitive.
Then when they are teenagers in High School some kid shows he sucks at math or something, and unlike before when you tried to improve your math ability, they basically tell you "Hey you will never be good at math, so take this easy version of Algebra etc..." and then make all the kids have lower requirements to graduate. People wonder why the County I graduated from with the strong requirements (and became stronger after I left), has the best success rate in the state. Adding to that, society also tells average people or non-experts to not research thing on there own. By the time I was in High School the only kids that got special help, or were encouraged to become better were "special" or "Gifted" kids. All these things make people not take risk, not improve, just be what they are and thats it. Sorry I'm ranting, but it pisses me off!
Themeparks aren't made for stupid people, they were just games with a basic story already implemented, nothing wrong with that. I kind of got a tone from you that people that enjoy themeparks are stupid, not true. I mean look at EQ and WoW, when they first started they weren't for stupid people, however over time, they have been dumbed down and made stupidly easier (especially WoW, ugh WoTLK sickens me).
Its not that most people aren't and are incapable of being imaginative, its that society is telling us to stop being imaginative, stop taking risk, and stop being competitive.
???
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Its not that most people aren't and are incapable of being imaginative, its that society is telling us to stop being imaginative, stop taking risk, and stop being competitive.
???
You disagree with that? Sports days are being cut out of UK schools in order that people who don't win don't get upset.
More and more health warnings are getting placed on more and more obvious things, christ in a few years time no one will be allowed to use a fork without filling out a certificate of some kind.
Lack of imagination.. harder to prove but if what constitutes as entertainment indicates anything, then the fact that TV is full of fucking Big Brother and other totally shit reality TV shows full of nobodies, then yes I'd say that's at least a creative, if not imaginative dumbing down.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Bah well in a sandbox you are the same hero as everyone else. .you don't do anything anyone else does. In a sandbox you can do things you want. . you can affect the social structure of the game world etc. .. I humbly disagree . . completely.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
That sounds like more of a challenging game than a theme park game to me. You all start equal, you make your own legacy and live it.
Why wouldn't you want to play something like that?
Comments
Well it's the same reason why most people stop real cooking and make pizza instead. It gets the result faster.
In a sandbox you can just be as heroic, but it isn't delivered to you on a platter. I mean, I don't want UO or EQ era gaming either, but at a certain point it is no longer me. I need to identify to feel the role matters and the more narrowed down the less likely it is. It's this "if you can't imagine to date Leia, you prolly can't play SWTOR" mentality which I just rebel against. A heroic story does mean nothing to me, when it's somebody else's dream. I understand your desire to do heroic deeds. I want to do that too, really. But not all the time. Sometimes I just want to craft a chair or do some stuff. I want much to chose from and much to do. I don't want to play a preset story like in some theatre rehearsal.
And yes, I can roleplay a totally different background in TOR and ignore the story, but thats like pretending a movie ended well, when it just didn't. I fail to see the point of then watching the movie altogether.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I wouldn't call some guy griefing & camping your corpse "player driven content". If so, that kind of content sucks and i much prefer professional produced content.
Limitless does not equal to GOOD. I would much rather have good content for a month, then switch to another game than playing shitting content for a year.
Your post is full of baseless assumptions, sir. Are you enraged?
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
I really wouldn't count PvP or gathering/crafting limitless.
Wrong answer, because in themeparks you are not a hero, you just grind. The truth is people like grinding on a set path because people are conditioned not to be free.
Think about school, what is it really, it is preparing you for the money grind. In school you basically do repetative tasks, either take tests, write papers, or work on projects that the teacher either pre-plans or aproves of. You basically just do this over, and over, and over, and over again for 13-17 years until this is all you know.
Then there is work, basically work is a money grind. You do the same repetative BS over, and over, and over, and over again until you die.
I mean there are even levels in this system, 1'st grade, 2'nd grade, 3'rd grade or in work intern, associate, assistant manager, etc...
Themeparks work because they replicate our lives, we are such regimented people that freedom without the direction of the goal grind confuses us. MMORPGs do not help us fulfill any fantasies, because we are really too conditioned to have any real fantasies, let alone pursue them. The MMORPG is a social distraction and nothing more. It is facebook and a replication of the real world grind fest.
Sandbox MMORPGs fail because they are made by artists who lack this conditioning. Look at Raph Koster, all into writing poetry and music and creative crap. He is not a normal human being! Normal human beings don't create, we watch our programs on TV by time slot, we fix our lives so we always go out on the weekends and drink at a bar with people we can't even stand to be around but do it because it is part of our established pattern.
We don't want freedom, we want routine. That is why Sandboxes fail, they don't guide us into a preset routine.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Well my post was about Themeparks and Good Fiction Books. Both are illusions, yet the illusions matter because they're real experiences at the same time.
And yeah, the other guy had a good point too that control in a World PVP game is the same illusion of control but on a different scale of permanency.
As for the Unnecessarily Philosophical take on things, there are basically two viewpoints:
Cynic: No actions in MMOs (themepark or sandbox) matter, they're all illusions and disconnected from reality, and none of it matters.
Optimist: Every experience is real, and can evoke real emotions/responses, so why nitpick the specifics of the experience (be it sandbox, themepark, or real life)?
Personally I think the Cynical take very easily slides off a cliff into complete nihilism, but I suppose there's a bit of truth to both views.
But yeah, unnecessarily philosophical
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
lolololololol this has to be the funniest thing I have read in a long time....
I don't consider GTA a sandbox game (game I love btw, gamerswise) , but do consider it a open-world game.
OP there are more reasons, one of them is also not being handheld in a sandbox game which makes it unappealing to many.
Has very little to do with it. 99.9% of sandbox games are not high quality productions. Eve is a high-quallity production sandbox game, and is very popular as a result.
If someone like Bioware, Blizzard, or Bethesda made a sandbox MMO it would be very popular.
Well it's not limitless, but it helps. I mean there's a finite number of ways players can express themselves within games, at least in ways which have a significant gameplay impact.
Also sandbox games don't have the monopoly on it -- getting a different party playing different classes each run was why I re-ran WOW dungeons so much. So themeparks have that player dynamic and content. Sandboxes have more player dynamic (slightly) and considerably less content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Different classes - same content: is still the same content. That is not the same as what Sroek was stating.
Sandboxes run the problem of not holding the hand. In general, people are sheep - they want to be shephered along with the rest of the herd.
Themeparks combine the repetitiveness of themepark rides and carnival games. If all the loot dropped for everybody on the first run...guess what?
The problem you will run into with sandboxes outside of the lack of hand-holding would be dominance. Group A arises. Takes power. This limits the options for other groups.
Just like we can never hav an actual completely free market - we cannot have a pure sandbox.
Games need more sandbox elements while retaining some themepark elements. Sandboxes suck. Themeparks suck.
Why people keep arguing for one or the other is beyond me...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Besides second life there are no other sandbox mmorpgs. They are all themed. Forgetting to add npcs & quests to a mmo with otherwise deep appealing gameplay is lazyness, not sandbox. Its as if I would throw my weekend D&D group a notepad and a core rulebook, tell them to do what they want and go play a video game with occasional checking if they are all right.
Damn I tell ya.
If I were the lead Designer of more MMORPGs, we would have a vast amount of great MMORPGs. Even better than WoW.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In pointing out an issue in regard to sandboxes, you have also pointed out a couple of issues in regard to themeparks: rails and repetition.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
*nod*
There is just too much quantity on the mmo market. The sad thing is that most of them just lacks the little something the next one has to keep me staying. Very personal opinion of course.
Hopefully this will be clearer:
Bad Fiction: A book that reads, "He saved the world. He saved the world again."
Bad Fiction: A game where you save the world again and again, back to back.
The quality of the fiction (the "illusion") determines the quality of the participant's experience. Therefore the illusion matters.
The contrast between your accomplishments already exists in any themepark I can recall playing. That's one of the many factors of fiction quality, in fact!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The biggest problem i have with sandbox games is the following:
The world itself seems rather dead: yes i know i can make up my own stories but it still has to be in this world and it will be the same thing. I went and kill this creature, i went into this cave and killed that creature. I got a very good imagination i think. But the world itself feels more empty to me then one with alot of npcs and stories that are "on the rails".
It feels like i'm placed in this world where the npc walk around and sell stuff but nothing really happens. I can't walk over and start building a house. I have to fight creatures (i'm taking MO as a reference.)
Theres no real army to fight for if i want to. I"m just one guy or girl in a world fighting monsters.
Most combat oriented MMO do tend to fall into either ganking or one side wins. It's not balanced to me.
Besides most people like to be entertained by a good story and not have to make everything up on their own. I make up stories all the time in my head but for some reason when i start a game i can't be bothered and 'im bored within 5 mins. Yeah i'm not giving the game the chance it needs. But thats because the game isn't hooking me into it's game play.
I think one of my teachers said once that you need to "grab" your audience in the first few lines or you lose a lot of potential readers.
I think thats the problem why sandbox games can't get people. You are dropped into the world and told make your own adventure. Theres no hook line or sinker.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Those things dont stop EVE being a "sandbox", they just make it a game you personally dont much like. EVE is fairly (although not completely) sandboxy by any reasonable measure.
PS EVE has changed quite a bit since Beta, and next summer it will change even more. Will it suddenly become a sandbox in your eyes when it acquires Avatars?
With respect to the posters above, they have a point. What people generally want from a game is to be made to feel that they are doing something difficult and/or dangerous, but at the same time, they want to pretty much always succeed and never really lose anything of consequence. To make a very wide generalisation, in "theme park" games, we're constantly told that we're heroic and special, but never do anything really heroic or special, whereas in "sandpark" games, no one gives a damb about us unless we really do something special, and also the "difficult and dangerous" things are actually hard and we will frequently fail, because other players are trying their best to make them so.
In short, most people want to be told a story in their relaxation time. They want to be entertained. Rather fewer want to make their own story. And as I've said frequently before, there's nothing wrong with either choice. It's not a moral decision. It's not "basement dweller" vs "lazy gamer". It's not "new school" vs "old school". It's not "playground bully" vs "cowardly carebear". It's purely a case of personal preference, and the OP might do well to remember that.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Sandboxes don't appeal to the masses because the masses are unimaginative people who need to have their hands held as they are guided through a rigidly structured gaming experience. Add to that the fact that the majority of the current crop of gamers are risk averse and anti competition and it becomes glaringly obvious why most steer away from sandbox mmo's.
The biggest factor though is time, most casuals (which make up most of the consumer base) do not want to spend umpteen hours/weeks/days/months developing a character towards a specific goal within a player community. They want to jump in from day one and pwn npcs to get shiny things.
Picking up on some earlier comments: Yes EVE is a sandbox, that it is not specifically your cup of tea does not change what the game is. Yes sandboxes have plenty of content, if all you see them as is big empty worlds then you're doing it wrong and should stick to themeparks.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Its not that most people aren't and are incapable of being imaginative, its that society is telling us to stop being imaginative, stop taking risk, and stop being competitive. I can't count how many times I've seen people I thought were dumb or uncreative pop up with some awesome question, or idea.
I don't know about other countries, but look at what people teach US kids nowadays ( I'm not that old, so I literally saw the changes right before my eyes): "Kids everyones a winner." "Your drawing is the most beutiful in the world, (you 10 year old who can handle being told that you are bad at something)."
It was one thing when everybody got a ribbon, but everyone got different ribbons saying number 1,2, 3, etc...now everyone gets the same stupid ribbon for simply participating. This destroys the desire to be competitive.
Then when they are teenagers in High School some kid shows he sucks at math or something, and unlike before when you tried to improve your math ability, they basically tell you "Hey you will never be good at math, so take this easy version of Algebra etc..." and then make all the kids have lower requirements to graduate. People wonder why the County I graduated from with the strong requirements (and became stronger after I left
), has the best success rate in the state.
Adding to that, society also tells average people or non-experts to not research thing on there own. By the time I was in High School the only kids that got special help, or were encouraged to become better were "special" or "Gifted" kids. All these things make people not take risk, not improve, just be what they are and thats it. Sorry I'm ranting, but it pisses me off!
Themeparks aren't made for stupid people, they were just games with a basic story already implemented, nothing wrong with that. I kind of got a tone from you that people that enjoy themeparks are stupid, not true. I mean look at EQ and WoW, when they first started they weren't for stupid people, however over time, they have been dumbed down and made stupidly easier (especially WoW, ugh WoTLK sickens me).
-I want a Platformer MMO
Ask yourself this:
As a child, which do you think you would get bored with first:
Going to the same themepark every day...
Taking all your toys into the sandbox...
For many folks, have to ask - what changed?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
???
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You disagree with that? Sports days are being cut out of UK schools in order that people who don't win don't get upset.
More and more health warnings are getting placed on more and more obvious things, christ in a few years time no one will be allowed to use a fork without filling out a certificate of some kind.
Lack of imagination.. harder to prove but if what constitutes as entertainment indicates anything, then the fact that TV is full of fucking Big Brother and other totally shit reality TV shows full of nobodies, then yes I'd say that's at least a creative, if not imaginative dumbing down.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Bah well in a sandbox you are the same hero as everyone else. .you don't do anything anyone else does. In a sandbox you can do things you want. . you can affect the social structure of the game world etc. .. I humbly disagree . . completely.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
That sounds like more of a challenging game than a theme park game to me. You all start equal, you make your own legacy and live it.
Why wouldn't you want to play something like that?