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How FFA PvP ruined the good name of sandbox mmos.
Ramonski7
Member UncommonPosts: 2,662
If you look at attempts in the past to create a sandbox mmo, you can always find that the key that binds them all is the mentality that sandbox mmos need to be PvP or worst yet FFA PvP. And each time they release these mmos with that key mindset of what sandbox mmos are about, they all seem to find themselves doing far less than stellar.
This is due to one over looking fact. Sandbox mmos were never meant to be created around this one parasitic feature. I say parasitic because the true lifeline to keeping sandbox mmos from obtaining a real grasp on the mmo crowd, namely social PvE gamers, are constantly driven out of these types of sandbox games and often with insults following closely behind. Take a look at it this way. Say your social gamers are your PvE crowd, not in the sense of dungeons and raids, but in a sense of player vs. environment. Someone who is looking to carve out a name for him or herself in the wild against nature itself. Maybe with a few friends to make a small village, maybe by themselves. They enjoys havesting, crafting and collecting. Gatherers if you will.
Then you have players who enjoy a more organic challenge from mmos. PvPers. Players that enjoy conflict over cultivation. Thrillseekers that feed on the need to either be the hunted or the hunter. You can call them the hunters of the hunter-gatherer analogy I'm using. But where developers have made their mistakes are in two places:
The first being that all hunters (PvPers) operate on the same wavelength. I can tell you that this is not true. Some PvPers are natural defenders, some are natural leaders and some are impeccable role-players. But developers have made the mistake of thinking they are all gladaitorial in nature. Gladiatorial in the sense that they eat, breathe and live only to find the next fight. So they cater their game world to reflect these views and they create their gameplay that is bound not by proactive choice but reactive.
The other mistake is that they often heavily favor the hunter nature of things in a sandbox mmo but the gatherer side is often shortchanged and often the players themselves feel letdown by the one-sided development of things. So they are left to either adapt a more hunter-like attitude or find something a little less frustrating. Both ways always lead to a breakdown of what the developers really invisioned when they set out to make a sandbox mmo.
What needs to happen is that developers have to put in place incentives to keep gatherers coming back for more. Housing, player economies driven by the backbone of builders, crafters and socializers. And when I say housing, I mean houses that can be seen by all, not these instance zones. And when I say player economies I mean the only items that drop off mobs are raw materials, not epics or better than crafted gear. Make raid bosses drop resources that benefit the entire village, not just the raiders.
We need the scales to tip back to the other side a little bit to balance things out once more for gatherers in sandbox mmos. Enough of this hunter only mentality that has been bringing down the word sandbox year after year.
But I challenge you to name one other sandbox mmo (besides UO and Second Life) that neither the devs or the players brag about the key feature being PvP or FFA PvP.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Comments
Wurm Online
Haven and Hearth
Istaria
A Tale in the Desert
EvE Online.
I know dozens of people playing it for several years, who have never been in a single PvP-fight so far, but only running missions, crafting, exploring, etc.
A good sandbox let's the players decide what to do with the given "tools".
Without all those hardcore PvE-players, EvE would actually be a very dead universe, as there wouldn't be any items for the PvP-players to play around with.
EDIT: Oh, and don't listen to the vocal majority in the forums, when word is about EvE Online, as more then 50% of the players are not PvP-players actually.
Link Realms
Asheron's Call (if you excuse the one FFA PvP server)
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
Interesting question.
However, I disagree FFA PvP is parasitic. Look at it this way: An MMO is to be designed to be populated with players who are then to be kept busy. One of the simplest and most effective ways to keep players "busy" is the interaction between player & player. Player v Player is just the most efficient and easiest to implement of this, I reckon and also for those that like it, the most satisfactory: Beats the hell out of AI on both accounts with the potential diversity of interactions possible?
I think this is the fundamental why developers wanting to make sandbox may be forced down this road, to hit population thresholds with suitable levels of being busy and stimulated significantly. Patience thresholds are probably higher for pure crafting where the results may not be as dramatic or suitably plastic and enough power in the hands of players to change the world to be as sufficiently rewarding? Hence PvP is just a ticket to balancing this problem, afterall the players interested in sandbox want as least on rails as possible, in the first place. Otherwise they would play themepark designs.
The alternative that could be implemented, is Player-driven tools to develop their own PvE content within the game: EG Building villages and towns and NPC's spawning and being put to work and patrolling etc and extending this influence of "good NPC's, kingdoms" across the world. Other players could be doing the same or be opposed and be involved in crafting extending the influence of monsters and environments that set up conflict between factions at a higher level of crafting etc. This would emphasis a goal and purpose to PvE. Again it funnels back to combat because combat is inevitable between competing entities for limited resources, regulated maybe by player run politics and guilds? Crafting is a form of power over the environment and player killing is the most extreme version of that.
Therefore imo, the REAL issue with PvP combat In SANDBOX mmos is probably that it IS implemented too casually as FFA PvP, it needs to be a special crafting (A high-end BRANCH skill) or dependent on crafting and prevailing conditions and even various laws and rules etc (Context specific) to properly integrate it into Sandbox. The massive reward of player killing must be compensated by a proportional cost: Risk (retaliation) or Cost (resources) more equally.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Very rarely do I read a post on here and think not only that I agree with the post, but I'm impressed that someone else actually gets it. Woo, nice post.
I can understand where your response is coming from because it's been embedded in the mentality of gamers for so long. PvP should have never been thought of as a way to keep players busy. It seems like it only serves as a content filler when all other means have been exhausted and no other resources are left to please non-PvP focused sandbox players.
I do agree however that more player based tools are needed to limit the social freedoms of anti-social PvPers like bounty reporting, in-game curses or a witness system of sorts, but not at the expense of PvPers of good faith or faction/guild/race based struggles.
I don't want people to get the wrong idea here either. I enjoy my fair share of PvPing, but I think some players take it way out of context and in the process, this twisted vision of what PvP means is becoming synonymous with the words sandbox mmo.
Also I want to give thanks to the people that pointed out some of the sandbox mmos that I haven't heard of, even if some of them do not offer PvP. But understand I'm not looking for a sandbox game with no PvP, just one that doesn't flaunt it as a key feature.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You should definitely check out some of the listed games. I bet one of them might just be exactly what you're looking for (hopefully)
I more or less agree with your sentiment OP.
My opinion has always been that FFA PvP is necessary in a sandbox MMORPG, BUT it needs to be HIGHLY restricted by in-game, organic mechanisms. For instance, if you "murder" someone, then you should be effectively removed from society from a time. Instant kill in ANY town, no auction house, no player trading etc. etc. This may be too extreme, but as another poster stated the risk of PvP needs to be commensurate with the massive reward that can be gained from PvP.
I also agree that some recent sandbox games (DF and MO) seem to think that UO was entirely full of gankers, and that is what their games should appeal to. As you stated, this could not be further from the truth, and I view the focus on "gank" PvP as the main failing of DF and MO.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
well, both haven and hearth and wurm (on pvp server) do have pvp (h&h have even pvp with "perma"-death
Thanks you Jimmac I'm actually in the process of researching some of those games you mentioned. Some of them seem truely appealing after reading up on them.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I noticed the perma-death feature in H&H. Also Wurm on a PvP server seems like it may work, but I'll have to do a little digging into it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
And to be honest, if one were to be honest, it is not actually about PvP. It is about the penalties resulting from a game where the PvP involves combat and loss.
The social games are full of PvP. There is competition. It may be individual PvP or group PvP, but it is still PvP all the same.
Farmville is a PvP game.
But if somebody has a better farm than you do, you do not lose your farm.
But it is still PvP...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think we have a misunderstanding here. I enjoy both hunting and gathering. If you would have read through the rest of the post made you could see that being presented. All I'm saying it that for far too long the combative nature of PvPing is shortchanging the style of sandbox mmos. It's not always about trying to kill or be killed.
But players like yourself getting riled up for a fight at the mere mention of toning down the focus of PvP being the only focal point for sandbox mmos is truth into itself of the matter at hand.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Read through the rest of the post? I quoted your entire post. Replied in parts throughout the post.
As to getting riled up? How on Earth did you miss my fighting back the laughter the whole time I was replying?
And I did not state that it should be the only focal point...
...do you normally discuss things with the special kids in the neighborhood?
You made no points in your post other than to state that you do not like combative PvP that has some form of loss involved. There was no need to go on about it as much as you did - nothing supported any other points you were trying to make, points that were subjective to begin with - yet even there you still did not support them and often contradicted yourself.
As to sandboxes not simply about trying to kill or be killed, no that is not the case. Generally speaking, it quite literally is not the case. Yet you have put forth the case that it is the problem with sandbox MMOs without providing any evidence of such.
They should be more than A. They are just A.
That is your statement.
The problem is that they are more than A and are not just A.
So beyond the point that you do not like combative PvP that results in some form of penalty or loss... you said nothing.
Perhaps you could read through and comment in one of the hundreds of threads discussing themepark versus sandbox games... you would find a wealth of complaints from the themepark folks on what is wrong with sandbox MMOs.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
dropped tems doint have to be only raw meterias. As long as the drops don't compete with crafters. For example if a bandit drops a sword it should have mimimum durability and damage and not even be able to kill un unarmoured man before it breaks. A ventuars bow should have a drawstrength stronger than a players character. You get the idea.
This makes no sense. What kind of idiot bandit is going to run around with that kind of sword?
You do bring up a good point in regard to gear drops making sense in regard to the creature that was using it. But that gets into physics, encumbrance, and all those nifty things that are generally missing from games.
As for the drops and crafters... the best gear should not come from crafters. There is no reason to believe that should ever be the case. At the same time, the best gear should not be a dime a dozen. If there is VirusDancer's Flaming Sword of Marshmallow Roasting +9000... for it to mean something, there should only be one.
WoW is such complete fail when it comes to gear in that sense. Everybody running around with Epic items... when... only one person per server should be running around with most of the items.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I assume you refer to DF and MO etc. These low budget games leaned towards ffa pvp because it requires less content. What you are saying really boils down to there should be more content with more variety. I'm sure the makers of MO would love more PVE but can't afford the extra development to do it quickly.
On second thought maybe I do need to clairfy myself to you. It seems like you still do not understand where I'm coming from. PvP in itself does not conjure up any negative thoughts from me. FFA PvP on the other hand is vilified by the attitude of the more vocal posters on these boards. And they usually attack people like myself who think that PvP does not need to be glorified no more than any other feature of a sandbox mmo.
Some sandbox mmos (DF, MO, EvE and SB) have been so tainted by the negativity associated with FFA PvP that they overshadow other sandbox mmos (Wurm, Havan & Hearth, Istaria and Saga). But not because they have taken subs or anything away, but in the sense that players tend to think sandbox mmo and FFA PvP are one in the same. And not usually in a good light. This is not what I believe sandbox mmos are all about.
I feel that PvP and further more FFA PvP need to be buzz words that the devs for sandbox mmos forget about and try to focus more on creating worlds with more balanced content like UO. But I do not wish for PvP to be removed. I enjoy PvP myself. But I don't need it thrown in my face with every discussion of sandbox mmos. Like it's the main attraction for sandbox mmos or it's the one feature that made past sandbox mmos great. It is not in either case for me.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
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This makes no sense. What kind of idiot bandit is going to run around with that kind of sword?
You do bring up a good point in regard to gear drops making sense in regard to the creature that was using it. But that gets into physics, encumbrance, and all those nifty things that are generally missing from games.
As for the drops and crafters... the best gear should not come from crafters. There is no reason to believe that should ever be the case. At the same time, the best gear should not be a dime a dozen. If there is VirusDancer's Flaming Sword of Marshmallow Roasting +9000... for it to mean something, there should only be one.
WoW is such complete fail when it comes to gear in that sense. Everybody running around with Epic items... when... only one person per server should be running around with most of the items.
[/b][/quote]
Thats not really my point. My point is that drops shoulnt be able to compete with crafters. It was just an example in how it could be implemented. If you want reasons than its just that I feel that crafting should be viable as a playstyle. And if you can get swors by fighting for free than a fighter would cut out the costly crafter.
The best gear doenst have to come from crafters if it doesnt cut the crafters income. As long as the best is extremely rare than I would have no argument agains it. Though I would prefer it if everything is crafted by crafters or is completely useless it desnt have to be.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I would say that the majority of common gear should come from drops and crafters. The majority of superior gear should come from crafters...with some better drops out their suited to partictular mobs where it makes sense. The best gear should be beyond the capabilities of current crafters... but at the same time it should be extremely rare (along the lines of there being perhaps a single item in the game world).
Of course, I would also say there is entirely too much variance in gear in many games. I prefer the method that DDO has compared to what WoW has.
If I have a game where a character can go 100 levels, it would be entirely possible that at level 100 the character may still be using the same sword they had in their 20s...or the same type of sword. I cannot stand how WoW handles it (literally, there are 80 levels worth of stats between the gear a fresh 80 sports compared to one that is raiding). And that, is after the mess of the gear up to that point.
Yes, common items should have durability issues that are not easily repaired. Magical items would be sturdier, and possibly even indestructibel to normal wear. Yet the average person is not going to be completely outfitted with magical gear. Thus, there will be reasons for crafters for all the various items in the game.
I do not think crafting should be a secondary skill either. If that is your job, that is your job.
Could go on with my thoughts on this, but it is going off a bit too far from the original topic.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
The FFA PVPers even love fighting in forums, apparently.
The OP's core argument that FFA PVP ruined the name of sandbox MMOs is pretty accurate. Are there alternatives? Sure (see Jimmac's suggestions,) but that doesn't really change the fact that one of the fundamental reasons for sandboxes flopping was developers letting half their playerbase ruin the other half's fun through poor PVP mechanics.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I disagree with this. It is not a fundamental reason. Does it occur? Yes. But a fundamental reason? No.
The fundamental reason that sandboxes flop is from the general player's lack of goals, direction, and motivation.
Does that mean that many players end up taking to PvP? Yes, it does. Is PvP the problem? No.
Does this mean that the sandbox is the problem for not providing goals, direction, and motivation? No.
The fundamental reason that sandboxes flop is the players.
The average player does not want a sandbox. They want a themepark. They want goals, direction, and motivation.
Beyond that, you would finally get into the players that are upset at the lack of options in the sandbox.
Is this were it is PvP's fault? Nope.
This is where it is the fault of the sandbox. We have already removed the players that should not have downloaded the game in the first place, and now we are at the people that want to be there. They have goals, direction, and motivation. They are ready to rock and roll.
But the game is poorly designed, does not offer them an inkling of the freedom they might have envisioned.
Again though, it has nothing to do with PvP.
All in all, PvP is the least of concerns for sandbox MMOs. Does it get the blame? Sure it does.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%