Three... LotrO, WAR and Aion. Not something surprising or strange there. CAN'T wait for Guild Wars 2 - even if it turns out to be not That great, it's B2P, so if you buy it you always got it.
As a matter of fact I think there has only been three MMO's that Ive sub'd longer than six months- EVE, WAR, WoW.
What are your thoughts on WAR? Many others ditched it. What did you like about it enough to stay?
There was a lot to like about the game, but sadly it was overwhelmed by shallow class/combat design (a cardinal sin of PVP-heavy games) and even shallower crowd control design. Personally I quit after the first month then came back for a 3-5 month burst -- long enough to realize that they weren't interested in addressing the main problems.
Wow, I have to say I kind of flabbergasted on the whole "shallow class/combat design"
portion of your post.
I'd have to say that the class/combat system is one of their stongest points and weakest at the same time. (ohh Catch-22)
They have 24 unique classes. No two are the same. Meaning you have so much diversity and different play styles, that it becomes almost impossible to balance fairly. Yet it rewards a smart and vigilant player, at the same time it punishes the lazy one. (meh, not quit a Catch-22). You have to learn your classes strengths and weakneses against 12 (36 technicaly) other enemy classes.
Now the combat system I found just as in-depth, and even more so. Although it has (had) way to much crowd crontrol, way, way to f'n much crowd control.
First game I ever played that had a "Morale System" (or anything close to it), that the longer you are in combat the better the morale that you can unleash.
And the Renown Point System was a change from other MMO's Ive played. Loved how you could build your character as a pure offensive or pure defensive or a mix of the two.
And thats not even getting into the Career Paths (think talent trees) that buffs a set of six base ability/spells/attacks, while unlocking new ones (and Morales) the further up the tree you go.
Oh, and I shouldnt forget the Tacitcs Bar either that gave you four Career Tactic buffs, at rank 40, (and big ones too) that were customizable/changeable on the fly. And the two Renown Tactic slots, and the one Tomb Tactic slot.
All this is a very, very simplified break down of the combat system. Truth is I didnt do it justice on just how many Career options and Abilities and Tactics and Morales there are to choose from.
Yeah, so your idea of shallow is way different than mine. *shrug*
In the end its all just opinions, everyone is entilted to their own.
You're listing complexities, not depth.
Having many systems doesn't make a game deep. Also, having complex systems doesn't make a game deep. Game depth comes from whether or not the player is constantly faced with interesting decisions. (While a certain amount of complexity may be required to achieve a certain amount of depth, the better the "depth per complexity" ratio, the better the game.)
Game Depth is whether a game remains strategically interesting after experts have studied play for years.
An example: Chess is deep. The rules are quite simple, yet the decisions are deep.
WAR was very "facroll"-heavy. My characters often felt like DPS Hoses where my only true decision was who to point the hose at. (or spam the AOE at; or spam the heals at.) Much of the problem stemmed from a lack of abilities that had the paper-rock-scissors interplay necessary to a good game -- a good game rewards you for reacting smartly to your opponent; with WAR, there was almost no way to react apart from continue to spam your repetitive DPS rotation.
The lack of reactive elements, and the repetitive DPS rotations are exactly why the game doesn't remain strategically interesting very long.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Complexity does add depth to the decisions that you can make.
Take your example. Chess has depth because of the of the the way the pieces can move and the rules involved, which adds complexity. Castleing (or rooking, Ive heard) "pawn in passing" and so on.
Now take checkers. That is simplicty because the pieces move only 2 ways, and thats why its a shallow game comapired to chess.
Both games are played on the same board, both games have the same number of pieces, both require thinking. But one requires complex strategy, and forethough sometimes 10+ moves in advance. And its not because of the name "chess", its because of the complexity of the rules and the pieces.
I would say in your faceroll example has more to do with bad class desgine than it does with shallow game play. I can promiss you on my Sorceress I didnt spam the same three or four or even five abilitys regardless of what the class I was facing. I fought a Slayer different than I fought a WP, than I fought a BW, than I fought a KotBS. And if it was a WH I didnt have a chance to fight, I just died. Unless I rebuilt my class specificly just to kill melee, but especially Witch Hunters. And then I won about 2/3 - 3/4 of the time.
It almost sounds to me you played the stunbomb easy train. Lets see if I can remember- 2WP's, 2 (aoe) BW's, and 1 KotBS. That setup could literally face-fuck two to three times their numbers of Destro players, with little to no game playing effort or skill. All one had to do was spam aoe damage, stuns and snares.
As a matter of fact it was that lack of proper balance (not depth) that temporarily drove me away from WAR.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
I guess I played all I bought at least for two months or so.
Of the ones I bought (EVE, WAR, AoC, WoW, FE, TR) I played only two for a longer time (WoW and FE). The others I stopped pretty quickly. I also tried quite a few betas or F2P MMORPGs, but played none of those for longer.
Everquest 2. I liked the trial but after purchasing the game it lost it's charm. =P
WoW. I even purchased Burning Crusade later on to play with friends.. stayed 1 week and was bored to death. Scarry thing is I'm tempted to buy Cata to check new races but I know I will be bored within 1 week again.
I like some f2p mmos so I usually don't waste money on clients. =]
Interesting thread . For me I've never brought an mmo upon release after Vanguard . I did nt subscribe to Warhammer directly after the first free month or Age of Conan but I did go back to War for a month about 6 months later and have also since played Age of Conan when i can get cheap time cards on ebay . I did'nt play Tabula Rasa or City of heroes after the initial free month either but like all the short played mmos I went back of free welcome back offers . All these mmos apart from Vanguard I waited untill I saw the game on sale and usually at a very low price and never paid more than 5 pounds for them . Am currently enoying my second welcome back offer in the last 5 months in Warhammer . I wont subscribe to it though .
I've been that way with far too many mmo's, and not all of them were brad new, only brand new game I plan on buying now is GW2 since I won't have to pay a sub, all mmo's from now on are on a not until they offer a free trial basis with me. cause that means they got enough to be confident in at least there opening area.
A simple question when a mmo releases they sell clients at around 49.99 to 19.99. They offer a free month to go with that. How many mmos were you suckered into buying only to not sub after the free month In the last five years?
I believe mine was around four, Lotro, TR, WAR and Aion I'n the last five years...
Vanguard, AOC, DFO APB. Aion was my primary MMO for a year so I don't count that.
Also DFO, I only played one day during beta, I never subbed, but I consider this because I had been following it for several years. Much less than the ones following it for a decade ahaahahhaahahhahaaa.
I didn't once buy into the WAR hype, the moment MMORPG.com started getting the very first screenshots, I said... WoW, gonna fail. Looks bland.
I actually liked most of them but i had always recently quit another MMO before playing these and missing my old community is usually what made me quit. Thats the same reason i currently end up back on WoW constantly!
This made me think i have bought just about all the big MMO releases apart from Age of Conan and Warhammer.
Complexity does add depth to the decisions that you can make.
Take your example. Chess has depth because of the of the the way the pieces can move and the rules involved, which adds complexity. Castleing (or rooking, Ive heard) "pawn in passing" and so on.
Now take checkers. That is simplicty because the pieces move only 2 ways, and thats why its a shallow game comapired to chess.
Both games are played on the same board, both games have the same number of pieces, both require thinking. But one requires complex strategy, and forethough sometimes 10+ moves in advance. And its not because of the name "chess", its because of the complexity of the rules and the pieces.
I would say in your faceroll example has more to do with bad class desgine than it does with shallow game play. I can promiss you on my Sorceress I didnt spam the same three or four or even five abilitys regardless of what the class I was facing. I fought a Slayer different than I fought a WP, than I fought a BW, than I fought a KotBS. And if it was a WH I didnt have a chance to fight, I just died. Unless I rebuilt my class specificly just to kill melee, but especially Witch Hunters. And then I won about 2/3 - 3/4 of the time.
It almost sounds to me you played the stunbomb easy train. Lets see if I can remember- 2WP's, 2 (aoe) BW's, and 1 KotBS. That setup could literally face-fuck two to three times their numbers of Destro players, with little to no game playing effort or skill. All one had to do was spam aoe damage, stuns and snares.
As a matter of fact it was that lack of proper balance (not depth) that temporarily drove me away from WAR.
Well don't take my word for it. Read any decent book on design. Doesn't even have to be game design. Design by its nature seeks the simplest (least complex) ways of achieving the desired function (game depth being one desired function of games.)
I mean all I can do is point out that you can type out Chess' rules on a single sheet of paper. That's pretty frickin' simple! :P Is a certain amount of complexity required to turn Checkers (simple, but low depth) into Chess (mostly simple, but high depth)? Sure. But with a game like WAR you have a lot of complexity added without efficient payouts in game depth.
Bad class design was my exact criticism of WAR. But bad class design results in shallow gameplay. Your class is what you're playing. Your class is the game. If it's shallow, the game is shallow.
On my Bright Wizard I had two priority-rotations: max AOE rotation or max single target rotation. Having played a Sorc a bit, I know the two aren't really that different from one another.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Aion, Allods (t)hough that was free), probably now GW (though its a free trial I'm in), and I can't remember if I was in Vanguard for more or less then 1 month but it wasn't very long. I think it actually held me for 2 months :-).
I learned my lesson from EQ2 and AC2. Both I quit within a week.
The only MMO I bought before it was properly reviewed in the past 5 years has been WAR. Technically, I stayed subbed for 3 months, but I only played for 2.
I'm thinking of buying GW2 before its reviewed also.
DAOC - I didnt like the way the game played. I had heard so many good things about it, so after i quit FFXI I bought it.
Everquest 2 - I actually enjoyed myself the first couple weeks. But the game felt grindy to me. And the end game seemed to be full of elitist. That and the class that i was enjoying so much didnt have much to be desired in endgame raiding. I ended up leaving during my third week playing after encountering to many asshats
SWG - The game just kinda sucks. I didnt play pre nge mind you. But what i expected out of it wasnt what it was. I guess KOTOR spoiled me when it came to playing a Star Wars game.
After these three i rarely jump in a mmo anymore without doing plenty of reading up on game play, getting a good sense of the community.
1 - Anarchy Online -The classic game is great, but I hated the Shadowlands. It's a betrayal of AO's cyberpunk origins and the AFK powerlevelling is mindnumbing, but you can't avoid if you want to keep up with your orgmates in order to be able to keep teaming up with them, which was my case.
2 - EvE Online - It's currently the most interesting MMO for me in terms of features, but I just couldn't get past the fact that you can't control your avatar, and neither the fact that space looks the same everywhere, so it turned out tedious after a while.
FFXI-- Just didn't get into it, and I didn't really meet anyone else to play with during my first month.
SWG -- Not because of the game, but because it gave me headaches and motion sickness. Fiddling with the graphics didn't help much. It just happens for me with some 3D games. (Morrowind was another offender in this category, but I stuck with it for a while anyway. I tortured myself with that game.)
EQ2... sort of. I have played it multiple times, but only for about a month at a time.
I gave up buying games at launch after VG, but will purchase TOR at launch.
IN my life time, I have bought at launch, and not made it past 30 days...
DAoC
WoW
EQ2
CoH....made it about 5.5 weeks or so
Vanguard
That lead me to not give CO/STO a chance at launch. If i was new to MMOs, I might of tried them. SWG I would of tried at launch, but it was being torn apart due to bugs. I waited until CU to try, and still didnt like it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
Three... LotrO, WAR and Aion. Not something surprising or strange there. CAN'T wait for Guild Wars 2 - even if it turns out to be not That great, it's B2P, so if you buy it you always got it.
All it takes is one bad day.
You're listing complexities, not depth.
Having many systems doesn't make a game deep. Also, having complex systems doesn't make a game deep. Game depth comes from whether or not the player is constantly faced with interesting decisions. (While a certain amount of complexity may be required to achieve a certain amount of depth, the better the "depth per complexity" ratio, the better the game.)
Game Depth is whether a game remains strategically interesting after experts have studied play for years.
An example: Chess is deep. The rules are quite simple, yet the decisions are deep.
WAR was very "facroll"-heavy. My characters often felt like DPS Hoses where my only true decision was who to point the hose at. (or spam the AOE at; or spam the heals at.) Much of the problem stemmed from a lack of abilities that had the paper-rock-scissors interplay necessary to a good game -- a good game rewards you for reacting smartly to your opponent; with WAR, there was almost no way to react apart from continue to spam your repetitive DPS rotation.
The lack of reactive elements, and the repetitive DPS rotations are exactly why the game doesn't remain strategically interesting very long.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Warhammer (sort of, I bought a month a few months later) I don't feel I was suckered into either though.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
I have to disagree with you again Axehilt.
Complexity does add depth to the decisions that you can make.
Take your example. Chess has depth because of the of the the way the pieces can move and the rules involved, which adds complexity. Castleing (or rooking, Ive heard) "pawn in passing" and so on.
Now take checkers. That is simplicty because the pieces move only 2 ways, and thats why its a shallow game comapired to chess.
Both games are played on the same board, both games have the same number of pieces, both require thinking. But one requires complex strategy, and forethough sometimes 10+ moves in advance. And its not because of the name "chess", its because of the complexity of the rules and the pieces.
I would say in your faceroll example has more to do with bad class desgine than it does with shallow game play. I can promiss you on my Sorceress I didnt spam the same three or four or even five abilitys regardless of what the class I was facing. I fought a Slayer different than I fought a WP, than I fought a BW, than I fought a KotBS. And if it was a WH I didnt have a chance to fight, I just died. Unless I rebuilt my class specificly just to kill melee, but especially Witch Hunters. And then I won about 2/3 - 3/4 of the time.
It almost sounds to me you played the stunbomb easy train. Lets see if I can remember- 2WP's, 2 (aoe) BW's, and 1 KotBS. That setup could literally face-fuck two to three times their numbers of Destro players, with little to no game playing effort or skill. All one had to do was spam aoe damage, stuns and snares.
As a matter of fact it was that lack of proper balance (not depth) that temporarily drove me away from WAR.
"I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."
I guess I played all I bought at least for two months or so.
Of the ones I bought (EVE, WAR, AoC, WoW, FE, TR) I played only two for a longer time (WoW and FE). The others I stopped pretty quickly. I also tried quite a few betas or F2P MMORPGs, but played none of those for longer.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Everquest 2. I liked the trial but after purchasing the game it lost it's charm. =P
WoW. I even purchased Burning Crusade later on to play with friends.. stayed 1 week and was bored to death. Scarry thing is I'm tempted to buy Cata to check new races but I know I will be bored within 1 week again.
I like some f2p mmos so I usually don't waste money on clients. =]
0
REALITY CHECK
None, but then I don't play beta's and research a game before I buy it.
Interesting thread . For me I've never brought an mmo upon release after Vanguard . I did nt subscribe to Warhammer directly after the first free month or Age of Conan but I did go back to War for a month about 6 months later and have also since played Age of Conan when i can get cheap time cards on ebay . I did'nt play Tabula Rasa or City of heroes after the initial free month either but like all the short played mmos I went back of free welcome back offers . All these mmos apart from Vanguard I waited untill I saw the game on sale and usually at a very low price and never paid more than 5 pounds for them . Am currently enoying my second welcome back offer in the last 5 months in Warhammer . I wont subscribe to it though .
Very few mmos are really worth a sub IMO.
I've been that way with far too many mmo's, and not all of them were brad new, only brand new game I plan on buying now is GW2 since I won't have to pay a sub, all mmo's from now on are on a not until they offer a free trial basis with me. cause that means they got enough to be confident in at least there opening area.
My Thoughts on Content Locust
Vanguard
Age of conan
Warhammer online
Aion
ST online
0 but I been into some betas and didn't buy the game afterwards.
dont bother yxour wow will never dieomg
Vanguard, AOC, DFO APB. Aion was my primary MMO for a year so I don't count that.
Also DFO, I only played one day during beta, I never subbed, but I consider this because I had been following it for several years. Much less than the ones following it for a decade ahaahahhaahahhahaaa.
I didn't once buy into the WAR hype, the moment MMORPG.com started getting the very first screenshots, I said... WoW, gonna fail. Looks bland.
Zilch
Champions Online, LOTRO, City of Heroes, AION.
I actually liked most of them but i had always recently quit another MMO before playing these and missing my old community is usually what made me quit. Thats the same reason i currently end up back on WoW constantly!
This made me think i have bought just about all the big MMO releases apart from Age of Conan and Warhammer.
It takes a really horrific game to put me off.
Well don't take my word for it. Read any decent book on design. Doesn't even have to be game design. Design by its nature seeks the simplest (least complex) ways of achieving the desired function (game depth being one desired function of games.)
I mean all I can do is point out that you can type out Chess' rules on a single sheet of paper. That's pretty frickin' simple! :P Is a certain amount of complexity required to turn Checkers (simple, but low depth) into Chess (mostly simple, but high depth)? Sure. But with a game like WAR you have a lot of complexity added without efficient payouts in game depth.
Bad class design was my exact criticism of WAR. But bad class design results in shallow gameplay. Your class is what you're playing. Your class is the game. If it's shallow, the game is shallow.
On my Bright Wizard I had two priority-rotations: max AOE rotation or max single target rotation. Having played a Sorc a bit, I know the two aren't really that different from one another.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Aion, Allods (t)hough that was free), probably now GW (though its a free trial I'm in), and I can't remember if I was in Vanguard for more or less then 1 month but it wasn't very long. I think it actually held me for 2 months :-).
There Is Always Hope!
Cancelled before 30 days: AC, AO, COH, WAR
Played past 30 days: EQ and WoW
Luckily I was able to get into EQ2 and SWG beta so I didn't have a chance to waste my money.
I learned my lesson from EQ2 and AC2. Both I quit within a week.
The only MMO I bought before it was properly reviewed in the past 5 years has been WAR. Technically, I stayed subbed for 3 months, but I only played for 2.
I'm thinking of buying GW2 before its reviewed also.
Three of them!
DAOC - I didnt like the way the game played. I had heard so many good things about it, so after i quit FFXI I bought it.
Everquest 2 - I actually enjoyed myself the first couple weeks. But the game felt grindy to me. And the end game seemed to be full of elitist. That and the class that i was enjoying so much didnt have much to be desired in endgame raiding. I ended up leaving during my third week playing after encountering to many asshats
SWG - The game just kinda sucks. I didnt play pre nge mind you. But what i expected out of it wasnt what it was. I guess KOTOR spoiled me when it came to playing a Star Wars game.
After these three i rarely jump in a mmo anymore without doing plenty of reading up on game play, getting a good sense of the community.
1 - Anarchy Online -The classic game is great, but I hated the Shadowlands. It's a betrayal of AO's cyberpunk origins and the AFK powerlevelling is mindnumbing, but you can't avoid if you want to keep up with your orgmates in order to be able to keep teaming up with them, which was my case.
2 - EvE Online - It's currently the most interesting MMO for me in terms of features, but I just couldn't get past the fact that you can't control your avatar, and neither the fact that space looks the same everywhere, so it turned out tedious after a while.
FFXI-- Just didn't get into it, and I didn't really meet anyone else to play with during my first month.
SWG -- Not because of the game, but because it gave me headaches and motion sickness. Fiddling with the graphics didn't help much. It just happens for me with some 3D games. (Morrowind was another offender in this category, but I stuck with it for a while anyway. I tortured myself with that game.)
EQ2... sort of. I have played it multiple times, but only for about a month at a time.
I gave up buying games at launch after VG, but will purchase TOR at launch.
IN my life time, I have bought at launch, and not made it past 30 days...
DAoC
WoW
EQ2
CoH....made it about 5.5 weeks or so
Vanguard
That lead me to not give CO/STO a chance at launch. If i was new to MMOs, I might of tried them. SWG I would of tried at launch, but it was being torn apart due to bugs. I waited until CU to try, and still didnt like it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
in the past 3 years?
WAR
AoC
AION
in the past 6 years:
Pretty much every P2P mmo ever (and guild wars)
MMO wish list:
-Changeable worlds
-Solid non level based game
-Sharks with lasers attached to their heads