So, what happens in the majority of MMOs is this; both playstyle players go along, gradually improving their respective characters in the manner they enjoy. Then BAM, the soloers hit a wall the groupers don't. The game says "switch over to this playstyle or give up progressing that character". That is what is wrong.
To clarify:
Soloers want to have gear equal to raiders.
Raiders want to have gear superior to soloers.
Can you see why this upsets soloers? They are asking for equality, not superiority.
I am not asking for a free lunch, or easy content. I'm perfectly happy with it taking longer for me to get the gear compared to a raid, I just want it to be possible.
I'm not a raider, but I do like to group a lot. However, this distinction has always irked me. Raid content is pretty much universally more difficult than solo content. Why should someone receive comparable rewards for completing easier content?
I wanted to touch on this point because progroupers often bring this up. I've never seen an MMO that had "group gear" or "raid gear". Gear is gear unless it is bound to where it came from. Raid gear could only accurately be called raid gear if it was confined to the raid. That means, it cannot be worn, used or taken out of the raid. Since this applies to no MMO I'm aware of, it's just "better gear".
Now to the question of need. Players want to progress their characters as far as they can. I won't say it's true for all, but for many that's part of the joy of gaming; to see your character grow in power and abilities. Once you get to the top level, gear is one of the few appreciable ways of doing this.
So, what happens in the majority of MMOs is this; both playstyle players go along, gradually improving their respective characters in the manner they enjoy. Then BAM, the soloers hit a wall the groupers don't. The game says "switch over to this playstyle or give up progressing that character". That is what is wrong.
To clarify:
Soloers want to have gear equal to raiders.
Raiders want to have gear superior to soloers.
Can you see why this upsets soloers? They are asking for equality, not superiority.
I am not asking for a free lunch, or easy content. I'm perfectly happy with it taking longer for me to get the gear compared to a raid, I just want it to be possible.
Every MMO I have ever played had different tiers of gear. Some are acquired soloing, some thru grouping, others from raiding. Using WoW as an example, as of right now, it would be impossible for any solo class to entire Heroic Halls of Reflection and kill a boss for loot. As a minimum, you would need a couple of other players, you know...a group, to be successful. The game will not allow you to enter 5 man instances as a raid and you can't solo them, it seems pretty clear to me that the rewards from this type instance would be considered "group gear". The same applies for what everyone calls raid gear.
Can you see why this upsets soloers? They are asking for equality, not superiority.
I am not asking for a free lunch, or easy content. I'm perfectly happy with it taking longer for me to get the gear compared to a raid, I just want it to be possible.
Sorry I meant to respond to this in the first post but got busy at work.
You aren't asking for equality. You are asking for equal rewards for different effort or accomplishments.
Can you see why this upsets soloers? They are asking for equality, not superiority.
I am not asking for a free lunch, or easy content. I'm perfectly happy with it taking longer for me to get the gear compared to a raid, I just want it to be possible.
Sorry I meant to respond to this in the first post but got busy at work.
You aren't asking for equality. You are asking for equal rewards for different effort or accomplishments.
You make your stance very clear ,,, If you don't Party Raid you don't get Party Gear.
What Solo players are asking for is to be able to obtain the Same Raid Gear but with a much longer gruelling/consuming time to get that Gear.
If they have to work 10x or 30x or whatever to get that Gear that isn't aquired EQUALY comparded to Raid Group and NOT in the same location.
And yes this has been stated in many posts and party players in general are not receptive to solo players.
Question IS, what's the BIG deal? Party Players and Solo Players don't play together for the most part other than possible Guild instances.
"Equal Rewards" are not Equal if Solo players have to spend 20x, 30x or 100x more to get that gear....
Besides, who cares that much? It's a freeking GAME!!!
So, what happens in the majority of MMOs is this; both playstyle players go along, gradually improving their respective characters in the manner they enjoy. Then BAM, the soloers hit a wall the groupers don't. The game says "switch over to this playstyle or give up progressing that character". That is what is wrong.
To clarify:
Soloers want to have gear equal to raiders.
Raiders want to have gear superior to soloers.
Can you see why this upsets soloers? They are asking for equality, not superiority.
Seriously, if you want a game where you get everything you can out of that game, every inch of content, while playing it alone the entire time, then why the hell are you playing MMO's? Did the whole 'multiplayer' aspect just confuse you? And don't even go there with the whole, "MMO isn't MMGrouping.", or, "The multiplayer is trading and crafting.", every MMO has a group ability built into it. What? You thought that was there for an extra chat channel or something?
Why on earth would there be equality between soloers and raiders? That baffles me. You want to be awarded the same gear for fighting a single mob as a team of 20 were for fighting a Dragon that could kill most of them in one hit? My mind just boggles at what would cause a person to think this was somehow fair or 'equal'. My head's gone just thinking about it, I'm so confused I'll have to end this post!
Just so happens endgames now typically favor only giving groupers gear progression and progressively harder mobs to match and not soloers.
What the soloer seems to be asking for is the ability to do everything and get everything on their own. What they need to realize is that they signed up to a multiplayer game with an inbuilt mechanic allowing people to group, and content that was inevitably going to include challenges for that section of the player base. Why get upset about it when you obviously knew it was going to happen? Was the ability to solo through the levelling game not enough for you? These aren't single player games, with a few rare exceptions they will never have purely solo content. If you don't like that idea then just move on, stop trying to change a genre that's already hurting due to the increase of soloability. The argument has strayed away from 'Is Solo or Grouping Better' to 'Should Developers Make Solo-Centric MMO's'. I say no. MMO's of the past were all about community, grouping to face challenges, teamwork and interaction. With the introduction of the solo player the games have changed to a point where those things are becoming a shadow of their former selves. Take it any further and this genre will be dead.
We've been through this before, multiplayer, does not by definition mean, formal grouping. You know it, I know it. There are other ways to interact with other players besides pve combat grouping. Those ways are what attract soloers.
Secondly, I'm not upset. If anything you seem upset that we do not share the same mentality, as if those who feel the way I feel will snuff out the existence of new games that cater to your mmo playstyle? Do you really believe I have the power to singly handedly change the genre by posting my personal preference? I promise you I'm not going to take your games away.
It's okay for you to say "no" to devs making solo-centric mmos. You are just like me. You are just one person with your one view. If your posts are of any prophetic value then all I have to do is sit back and smile knowing the mmorpg genre as you know it and love it, is on it's deathbed. Upon death, it will be replaced by solo-centic mmorpgs that cater to my brethren. Guild Wars 2 is the first step in that general direction.
We've been through this before, multiplayer, does not by definition mean, formal grouping. You know it, I know it. There are other ways to interact with other players besides pve combat grouping. Those ways are what attract soloers.
Let the soloers be attracked, great for them, however I refuse to go down that road of 'multiplayer doesn't mean grouping', that's just BS. Every MMO has a grouping mechanic, if it wasn't there I would 100% agree with you, but we all know for a fact that once that is in place then the developers are going to make content to challenge multiple players (multiplayer anyone?), and then they take that a step further and let multiple groups get together to create raids.
Are you seriously telling me that MMO's aren't about grouping when this happens in just about every MMO out there? The only ones I can think of that this doesn't happen in are games made by Cryptic, but we all know how bad a developer they are.
Originally posted by z80paranoia
Secondly, I'm not upset. If anything you seem upset that we do not share the same mentality, as if those who feel the way I feel will snuff out the existence of new games that cater to your mmo playstyle? Do you really believe I have the power to singly handedly change the genre by posting my personal preference? I promise you I'm not going to take your games away.
Not single handedly, no, but ever since the arrival of World of Warcraft and the casual gamer into the genre, soloing in MMO's has become the way everyone now advances in levels. Joining a group while levelling is rarely, if ever, needed in modern MMO's. If enough of these casual gamers, who really should have stayed with their single player console games, make enough noise, sooner or later the developers are going to try and capture that player base with solo games and the genre will be one step closer to death.
Originally posted by z80paranoia
It's okay for you to say "no" to devs making solo-centric mmos. You are just like me. You are just one person with your one view. If your posts are of any prophetic value then all I have to do is sit back and smile knowing the mmorpg genre as you know it and love it, is on it's deathbed. Upon death, it will be replaced by solo-centic mmorpgs that cater to my brethren. Guild Wars 2 is the first step in that general direction.
I would expect no other reaction from a soloer, as to be a soloer, joining a multiplayer game to play it alone while wanting everything the game has to offer, you need to be inherently selfish. Either that or a sociopath. Or maybe both..? So smile when it comes, I'm guessing Guild Wars 2 and SW:TOR will take the genre so far from its roots that they'll end up being the final nail.
Originally posted by Gdemami Originally posted by z80paranoiaYes. This is my school of thought.
So you rather spent 2x 50M USD to make 2 games instead of solving the problem on design level?
Right...
What we have here is a misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting that an mmo publisher simultaneously develop different versions of every title they produce. I'm suggesting that some games be made from concept to creation as group centric and some be made to be solo centric.
Originally posted by z80paranoiaWhat we have here is a misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting that an mmo publisher simultaneously develop different versions of every title they produce. I'm suggesting that some games be made from concept to creation as group centric and some be made to be solo centric.
That is the same thing.
I, as a developer, wants to get in as many people as I can, take the largest share of the market.
I say, make my players more happy.
You say, produce a new game for those that are not happy with my game.
Also, what I say does not exclude group not solo play. I see no reason why those two play style could not co-exist next to each other. If the problem or part of the problem is the diversity in gear, the suggested fix would be viable.
Question IS, what's the BIG deal? Party Players and Solo Players don't play together for the most part other than possible Guild instances.
"Equal Rewards" are not Equal if Solo players have to spend 20x, 30x or 100x more to get that gear....
Besides, who cares that much? It's a freeking GAME!!!
I've been asking the same question. If you are a soloer and do not have any desire to do group or raid content, what is the big desire to have group or raid gear? The only explanation I can come up with, is competition. For some reason you view gear as some form of status symbol and don't feel as cool as someone who got gear doing something you choose not to do.
So what is the BIG deal about getting gear that you do not need?
What we have here is a misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting that an mmo publisher simultaneously develop different versions of every title they produce. I'm suggesting that some games be made from concept to creation as group centric and some be made to be solo centric.
That is the same thing.
I, as a developer, wants to get in as many people as I can, take the largest share of the market.
I say, make my players more happy.
You say, produce a new game for those that are not happy with my game.
Also, what I say does not exclude group not solo play. I see no reason why those two play style could not co-exist next to each other. If the problem or part of the problem is the diversity in gear, the suggested fix would be viable.
Bear in mind, some devs or publishers plan multigame publishing anyway (like Ncsoft for example or even the much maligned Cryptic). So, if it's already in the cards for them to publish multiple games over time, making one of those inevitable multiple games into a solo centric mmo wouldn't necessarily be a financial hardship. They were planing (read: budgeting for) multiple titles anyway.
You speak as if a publisher making multiple titles over time is unheard of. even Blizzard said it is making another mmo game. You may not agree with my school of thought(which I'm ok with) but, it's not incompatible with the way business has already been done.
Originally posted by z80paranoia Bear in mind, some devs or publishers plan multigame publishing anyway (like Ncsoft for example or even the much maligned Cryptic). So, if it's already in the cards for them to publish multiple games over time, making one of those inevitable multiple games into a solo centric mmo wouldn't necessarily be a financial hardship. They were planing (read: budgeting for) multiple titles anyway.You speak as if a publisher making multiple titles over time is unheard of. even Blizzard said it is making another mmo game. You may not agree with my school of thought(which I'm ok with) but, it's not incompatible with the way business has already been done.
I see your point.
It is a matter of business model though, not a general rule.
When you have 50M USD for investement, you can produce 20 low budget games like Zynga is producing or you spend the money on single project - in that case you rather make sure the game is appealing to as many people as possible.
#2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
In other words, it would be not much different from the initial soloable (or at least in some cases 5 man pugable) leveling up process. But instead of gaining levels, you gain gear. You know, some classes level better than others but they don't make 10 or however many different versions of each quest during the leveling process. They just accept that some classes will solo better than others. But that's when you do the lfg or get your guildies to help you out (exactly like when leveling up).
From everything I've been reading about Guild Wars 2, it seems to be the go to game for solo players in the near future. Their Dynamic Event System is an example of the kind of scaleable content that raiders have been claiming is too time consuming for devs to create on a useable level on boards like this for years.
That Dynamic Event System will allow solo players to jump in without being subjected to the whims of others, since no formal grouping is required. All players who deal damage to the mobs in the event will be rewarded for their efforts by the AI, thereby removing dkp pyramid schemes from the equation.
Some events will be as difficult as dungeons, and will yeild similar rewards, therefore solo players will for the first time be fully rewarded for their efforts in an MMO. Even the dungeons will be limited to 5 person groups, so the small group lovers who have been thrown to the curb by the 10 and 25 person obsessed WoW devs will also finally be rewarded for their efforts as well.
#2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.
There is solo content in WoW that is infinately more difficult than anything raiders can encounter. Solo players can and do engage mobs against which their mathematical chance of success is 0%.
A more important question to answer is why do raiders need gear that's more effective against mobs that can be engaged solo than players who actually specialize in the solo playstyle?
The problem is in most mmos is that grouping garners you less exp then soloing. Back when I played everquest 1 we would group with the same people over and over and grind for hours. Whenever I was leveling in WOW my friends would never want to group because you actually got less exp for kills in groups.
Some games give a good bonus for grouping.
Also since games have so many quests in them now , most of the time you join a group only to find they did the quests you need so there is no point in grouping.
Solo should give decent experience and group grind should give greater exp. Problem is most games don't do both at the same time.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
Originally posted by Murashu Originally posted by z80paranoia
#2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.
I get what you are saying about raid instance group makeups now. I hope you reread what I've said to you and understand I was not talking about solo raid instances. That would be incredibly boring. I've played other games where I was alone in instanced content and totally strictly soloed through them and it was not very fun.
If I was speaking of solo raid instances you would have a point about needing to make one or more per class. But I was not. What I am talking about is the same kind of content one experiences during the leveling process but with gear progression instead of level progression. This way players could reach the level cap and still continue to play and progress the way they did while leveling up. During leveling up, there were no separate zones for healers and warriors etc, there were just zones. If your level was high enough you did fine. Some classes were inherently easier than others, but that was fine.
The "big" issue with WoW and similarly designed games is the only means of PvE progression is by raiding. Progression for solo PvE play simply vanishes. I'm telling you that the better gear would not be trivial if there was the same kind of soloable progression offered at the cap as during leveling but with gear as the reward instead of levels. What I am not claiming is that this be instanced like raids but with just one player doing everything. My point still stands that they would only need a one size fits all (exactly like with the zones you progress through while leveling up) solution. Not every mob would literally be soloable, some would require 2 or 5 people, just like when leveling. I hope explained it well enough this time.
Do you get what I'm saying now? "Public" content with zones and all that replicates the leveling process but with loot (that is on par with raid gear) as the reward instead of levels. This would allow the loot to not trivialize the content. Obviously the progression would have to be slower than normal leveling since endgame is designed to slow things down until the expansion comes out.
Realistically, I don't expect games with raid-centric PvE endgames to do this. I respect that these games are designed to expel soloers in their endgames and that we are basically expected to simply quit the game at that point. I'm ok with that. I get to the end and cancel my sub. No problem. I am simply telling you how they could keep my subscription from getting canceled and probably many others. I don't think there's any harm in saying what I like though, you never know, somebody might make a good mmo that will keep me and those like me subbing for many years.
Guild Wars 2 is shaping to be a soloers, "alone-together-ists" wet dream. There is no one way to get the best loot stats. Dungeon loot just looks better. So basically, if you don't mind looking a bit unfashionable, you don't have to do instance runs. Even then, their instances, reportedly, will be 5 player, which I enjoy a lot. It really feels like they read my mind and are making a game based on what they saw inside of it so I'm happy.
Originally posted by Beartosser From everything I've been reading about Guild Wars 2, it seems to be the go to game for solo players in the near future. Their Dynamic Event System is an example of the kind of scaleable content that raiders have been claiming is too time consuming for devs to create on a useable level on boards like this for years. That Dynamic Event System will allow solo players to jump in without being subjected to the whims of others, since no formal grouping is required. All players who deal damage to the mobs in the event will be rewarded for their efforts by the AI, thereby removing dkp pyramid schemes from the equation. Some events will be as difficult as dungeons, and will yeild similar rewards, therefore solo players will for the first time be fully rewarded for their efforts in an MMO. Even the dungeons will be limited to 5 person groups, so the small group lovers who have been thrown to the curb by the 10 and 25 person obsessed WoW devs will also finally be rewarded for their efforts as well.
Exactly. This is why I am so geeked about this game. A loot-drama free system that rewards stat gains equally across play-styles.
#2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.
I get what you are saying about raid instance group makeups now. I hope you reread what I've said to you and understand I was not talking about solo raid instances. That would be incredibly boring. I've played other games where I was alone in instanced content and totally strictly soloed through them and it was not very fun.
If I was speaking of solo raid instances you would have a point about needing to make one or more per class. But I was not. What I am talking about is the same kind of content one experiences during the leveling process but with gear progression instead of level progression. This way players could reach the level cap and still continue to play and progress the way they did while leveling up. During leveling up, there were no separate zones for healers and warriors etc, there were just zones. If your level was high enough you did fine. Some classes were inherently easier than others, but that was fine.
The "big" issue with WoW and similarly designed games is the only means of PvE progression is by raiding. Progression for solo PvE play simply vanishes. I'm telling you that the better gear would not be trivial if there was the same kind of soloable progression offered at the cap as during leveling but with gear as the reward instead of levels. What I am not claiming is that this be instanced like raids but with just one player doing everything. My point still stands that they would only need a one size fits all (exactly like with the zones you progress through while leveling up) solution. Not every mob would literally be soloable, some would require 2 or 5 people, just like when leveling. I hope explained it well enough this time.
Do you get what I'm saying now? "Public" content with zones and all that replicates the leveling process but with loot (that is on par with raid gear) as the reward instead of levels. This would allow the loot to not trivialize the content. Obviously the progression would have to be slower than normal leveling since endgame is designed to slow things down until the expansion comes out.
Realistically, I don't expect games with raid-centric PvE endgames to do this. I respect that these games are designed to expel soloers in their endgames and that we are basically expected to simply quit the game at that point. I'm ok with that. I get to the end and cancel my sub. No problem. I am simply telling you how they could keep my subscription from getting canceled and probably many others. I don't think there's any harm in saying what I like though, you never know, somebody might make a good mmo that will keep me and those like me subbing for many years.
Guild Wars 2 is shaping to be a soloers, "alone-together-ists" wet dream. There is no one way to get the best loot stats. Dungeon loot just looks better. So basically, if you don't mind looking a bit unfashionable, you don't have to do instance runs. Even then, their instances, reportedly, will be 5 player, which I enjoy a lot. It really feels like they read my mind and are making a game based on what they saw inside of it so I'm happy.
I enjoyed reading your post because it sums up my thinking with mmorpgs I really enjoy playing solo, I'm not saying that this is better than grouping just that as those who prefer grouping can point out things that bother them about soloing I can say that those things don't bother me and I actually find fault with things that unfortunately come mostly from grouping.
I have often been in the same boat as you I've played quite a few mmorpgs and have really liked a few of them but once I reach end game they simply lose my sub money because the prospect of any solo progression just vanishes. Luckily right now I'm playing LOTRO which has alleviated this some with the legendary weapon system but much of what passes for endgame content works the exact same for that game as others like WOW.
I feel you in that I'm not here complain about it I feel I have gotten my money's worth from games where this happened to me but hopefully more devs will look at other things like the legendary weapon system employed by LOTRO and other things that can ensure that folks who prefer to solo will stick around like the raiders do. And generally I don't think of my self as an exclusionist and am not advocating that raid content should be discountinued just that more devs should think of adding systems in place that will only help them and group players in the long run by keeping more revenue coming in.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Comments
For me, as an outside observer, this is a failed design.
Why should both groups want the same gear?
Give raiders gear that will help them raiding.
Give soloers gear that will help them soloing.
Sems like very simple fix, imo...
Isn't the easier fix to make a different game for each playstyle?
I'm not a raider, but I do like to group a lot. However, this distinction has always irked me. Raid content is pretty much universally more difficult than solo content. Why should someone receive comparable rewards for completing easier content?
Every MMO I have ever played had different tiers of gear. Some are acquired soloing, some thru grouping, others from raiding. Using WoW as an example, as of right now, it would be impossible for any solo class to entire Heroic Halls of Reflection and kill a boss for loot. As a minimum, you would need a couple of other players, you know...a group, to be successful. The game will not allow you to enter 5 man instances as a raid and you can't solo them, it seems pretty clear to me that the rewards from this type instance would be considered "group gear". The same applies for what everyone calls raid gear.
No..?
Sorry I meant to respond to this in the first post but got busy at work.
You aren't asking for equality. You are asking for equal rewards for different effort or accomplishments.
You make your stance very clear ,,, If you don't Party Raid you don't get Party Gear.
What Solo players are asking for is to be able to obtain the Same Raid Gear but with a much longer gruelling/consuming time to get that Gear.
If they have to work 10x or 30x or whatever to get that Gear that isn't aquired EQUALY comparded to Raid Group and NOT in the same location.
And yes this has been stated in many posts and party players in general are not receptive to solo players.
Question IS, what's the BIG deal? Party Players and Solo Players don't play together for the most part other than possible Guild instances.
"Equal Rewards" are not Equal if Solo players have to spend 20x, 30x or 100x more to get that gear....
Besides, who cares that much? It's a freeking GAME!!!
Seriously, if you want a game where you get everything you can out of that game, every inch of content, while playing it alone the entire time, then why the hell are you playing MMO's? Did the whole 'multiplayer' aspect just confuse you? And don't even go there with the whole, "MMO isn't MMGrouping.", or, "The multiplayer is trading and crafting.", every MMO has a group ability built into it. What? You thought that was there for an extra chat channel or something?
Why on earth would there be equality between soloers and raiders? That baffles me. You want to be awarded the same gear for fighting a single mob as a team of 20 were for fighting a Dragon that could kill most of them in one hit? My mind just boggles at what would cause a person to think this was somehow fair or 'equal'. My head's gone just thinking about it, I'm so confused I'll have to end this post!
We've been through this before, multiplayer, does not by definition mean, formal grouping. You know it, I know it. There are other ways to interact with other players besides pve combat grouping. Those ways are what attract soloers.
Secondly, I'm not upset. If anything you seem upset that we do not share the same mentality, as if those who feel the way I feel will snuff out the existence of new games that cater to your mmo playstyle? Do you really believe I have the power to singly handedly change the genre by posting my personal preference? I promise you I'm not going to take your games away.
It's okay for you to say "no" to devs making solo-centric mmos. You are just like me. You are just one person with your one view. If your posts are of any prophetic value then all I have to do is sit back and smile knowing the mmorpg genre as you know it and love it, is on it's deathbed. Upon death, it will be replaced by solo-centic mmorpgs that cater to my brethren. Guild Wars 2 is the first step in that general direction.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
For me, as an outside observer, this is a failed design.
Why should both groups want the same gear?
Give raiders gear that will help them raiding.
Give soloers gear that will help them soloing.
Sems like very simple fix, imo...
Isn't the easier fix to make a different game for each playstyle?
Yes. This is my school of thought.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
So you rather spent 2x 50M USD to make 2 games instead of solving the problem on design level?
Right...
Let the soloers be attracked, great for them, however I refuse to go down that road of 'multiplayer doesn't mean grouping', that's just BS. Every MMO has a grouping mechanic, if it wasn't there I would 100% agree with you, but we all know for a fact that once that is in place then the developers are going to make content to challenge multiple players (multiplayer anyone?), and then they take that a step further and let multiple groups get together to create raids.
Are you seriously telling me that MMO's aren't about grouping when this happens in just about every MMO out there? The only ones I can think of that this doesn't happen in are games made by Cryptic, but we all know how bad a developer they are.
Not single handedly, no, but ever since the arrival of World of Warcraft and the casual gamer into the genre, soloing in MMO's has become the way everyone now advances in levels. Joining a group while levelling is rarely, if ever, needed in modern MMO's. If enough of these casual gamers, who really should have stayed with their single player console games, make enough noise, sooner or later the developers are going to try and capture that player base with solo games and the genre will be one step closer to death.
I would expect no other reaction from a soloer, as to be a soloer, joining a multiplayer game to play it alone while wanting everything the game has to offer, you need to be inherently selfish. Either that or a sociopath. Or maybe both..? So smile when it comes, I'm guessing Guild Wars 2 and SW:TOR will take the genre so far from its roots that they'll end up being the final nail.
So you rather spent 2x 50M USD to make 2 games instead of solving the problem on design level?
Right...
What we have here is a misunderstanding. I'm not suggesting that an mmo publisher simultaneously develop different versions of every title they produce. I'm suggesting that some games be made from concept to creation as group centric and some be made to be solo centric.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
That is the same thing.
I, as a developer, wants to get in as many people as I can, take the largest share of the market.
I say, make my players more happy.
You say, produce a new game for those that are not happy with my game.
Also, what I say does not exclude group not solo play. I see no reason why those two play style could not co-exist next to each other. If the problem or part of the problem is the diversity in gear, the suggested fix would be viable.
I've been asking the same question. If you are a soloer and do not have any desire to do group or raid content, what is the big desire to have group or raid gear? The only explanation I can come up with, is competition. For some reason you view gear as some form of status symbol and don't feel as cool as someone who got gear doing something you choose not to do.
So what is the BIG deal about getting gear that you do not need?
Bear in mind, some devs or publishers plan multigame publishing anyway (like Ncsoft for example or even the much maligned Cryptic). So, if it's already in the cards for them to publish multiple games over time, making one of those inevitable multiple games into a solo centric mmo wouldn't necessarily be a financial hardship. They were planing (read: budgeting for) multiple titles anyway.
You speak as if a publisher making multiple titles over time is unheard of. even Blizzard said it is making another mmo game. You may not agree with my school of thought(which I'm ok with) but, it's not incompatible with the way business has already been done.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I see your point.
It is a matter of business model though, not a general rule.
When you have 50M USD for investement, you can produce 20 low budget games like Zynga is producing or you spend the money on single project - in that case you rather make sure the game is appealing to as many people as possible.
#1. I see your point on number one.
#2. Using WoW, No, they would only need to make one set of challenges for each set of rewards. Not 30. not even 1 per class. Some challenges would simply be easier for some classes than others (which is no different than raid content which will be easier for some group class combinations than others). Should they make separate raid instances for each of the dozens of possible class combinations too? No. They do groups content in a one size fits all fashion (aside from the 10 and 25 size variations). If some group combos have it easier than others, oh well. Same logic would be applied for soloable challenges, if some classes excel at some of the challenges better than others, oh well.
In other words, it would be not much different from the initial soloable (or at least in some cases 5 man pugable) leveling up process. But instead of gaining levels, you gain gear. You know, some classes level better than others but they don't make 10 or however many different versions of each quest during the leveling process. They just accept that some classes will solo better than others. But that's when you do the lfg or get your guildies to help you out (exactly like when leveling up).
#3. I see your point here as well.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
From everything I've been reading about Guild Wars 2, it seems to be the go to game for solo players in the near future. Their Dynamic Event System is an example of the kind of scaleable content that raiders have been claiming is too time consuming for devs to create on a useable level on boards like this for years.
That Dynamic Event System will allow solo players to jump in without being subjected to the whims of others, since no formal grouping is required. All players who deal damage to the mobs in the event will be rewarded for their efforts by the AI, thereby removing dkp pyramid schemes from the equation.
Some events will be as difficult as dungeons, and will yeild similar rewards, therefore solo players will for the first time be fully rewarded for their efforts in an MMO. Even the dungeons will be limited to 5 person groups, so the small group lovers who have been thrown to the curb by the 10 and 25 person obsessed WoW devs will also finally be rewarded for their efforts as well.
WoW raids are balanced around a set number of tanks, healers, and DPSers. They are not balanced around 10 tanks or 10 healers or even 10 DPSers so yes they do have a specific balance in mind when they are made. Minor variances can me made, but EVERY raid in WoW is based on the tank/healer/dps concept. Although WoW raids aren't as challenging as other MMOs, they still require more effort from each individual than any solo content in game. If solo "raid" content was tuned up in challenge like current raid content, it would become impossible for some classes and still too easy for other classes, unless specifically designed per class/subclass. I would really love to see a rogue solo the Lady Dreamwalker encounter in ICC.
There is solo content in WoW that is infinately more difficult than anything raiders can encounter. Solo players can and do engage mobs against which their mathematical chance of success is 0%.
A more important question to answer is why do raiders need gear that's more effective against mobs that can be engaged solo than players who actually specialize in the solo playstyle?
I like to solo in mmos and I like to group.
The problem is in most mmos is that grouping garners you less exp then soloing. Back when I played everquest 1 we would group with the same people over and over and grind for hours. Whenever I was leveling in WOW my friends would never want to group because you actually got less exp for kills in groups.
Some games give a good bonus for grouping.
Also since games have so many quests in them now , most of the time you join a group only to find they did the quests you need so there is no point in grouping.
Solo should give decent experience and group grind should give greater exp. Problem is most games don't do both at the same time.
The Stranger: It's what people know about themselves inside that makes 'em afraid.
I get what you are saying about raid instance group makeups now. I hope you reread what I've said to you and understand I was not talking about solo raid instances. That would be incredibly boring. I've played other games where I was alone in instanced content and totally strictly soloed through them and it was not very fun.
If I was speaking of solo raid instances you would have a point about needing to make one or more per class. But I was not. What I am talking about is the same kind of content one experiences during the leveling process but with gear progression instead of level progression. This way players could reach the level cap and still continue to play and progress the way they did while leveling up. During leveling up, there were no separate zones for healers and warriors etc, there were just zones. If your level was high enough you did fine. Some classes were inherently easier than others, but that was fine.
The "big" issue with WoW and similarly designed games is the only means of PvE progression is by raiding. Progression for solo PvE play simply vanishes. I'm telling you that the better gear would not be trivial if there was the same kind of soloable progression offered at the cap as during leveling but with gear as the reward instead of levels. What I am not claiming is that this be instanced like raids but with just one player doing everything. My point still stands that they would only need a one size fits all (exactly like with the zones you progress through while leveling up) solution. Not every mob would literally be soloable, some would require 2 or 5 people, just like when leveling. I hope explained it well enough this time.
Do you get what I'm saying now? "Public" content with zones and all that replicates the leveling process but with loot (that is on par with raid gear) as the reward instead of levels. This would allow the loot to not trivialize the content. Obviously the progression would have to be slower than normal leveling since endgame is designed to slow things down until the expansion comes out.
Realistically, I don't expect games with raid-centric PvE endgames to do this. I respect that these games are designed to expel soloers in their endgames and that we are basically expected to simply quit the game at that point. I'm ok with that. I get to the end and cancel my sub. No problem. I am simply telling you how they could keep my subscription from getting canceled and probably many others. I don't think there's any harm in saying what I like though, you never know, somebody might make a good mmo that will keep me and those like me subbing for many years.
Guild Wars 2 is shaping to be a soloers, "alone-together-ists" wet dream. There is no one way to get the best loot stats. Dungeon loot just looks better. So basically, if you don't mind looking a bit unfashionable, you don't have to do instance runs. Even then, their instances, reportedly, will be 5 player, which I enjoy a lot. It really feels like they read my mind and are making a game based on what they saw inside of it so I'm happy.
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I enjoyed reading your post because it sums up my thinking with mmorpgs I really enjoy playing solo, I'm not saying that this is better than grouping just that as those who prefer grouping can point out things that bother them about soloing I can say that those things don't bother me and I actually find fault with things that unfortunately come mostly from grouping.
I have often been in the same boat as you I've played quite a few mmorpgs and have really liked a few of them but once I reach end game they simply lose my sub money because the prospect of any solo progression just vanishes. Luckily right now I'm playing LOTRO which has alleviated this some with the legendary weapon system but much of what passes for endgame content works the exact same for that game as others like WOW.
I feel you in that I'm not here complain about it I feel I have gotten my money's worth from games where this happened to me but hopefully more devs will look at other things like the legendary weapon system employed by LOTRO and other things that can ensure that folks who prefer to solo will stick around like the raiders do. And generally I don't think of my self as an exclusionist and am not advocating that raid content should be discountinued just that more devs should think of adding systems in place that will only help them and group players in the long run by keeping more revenue coming in.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....