Originally posted by SuperXero89 Originally posted by Drachasor
If daily quests are remotely good end-game content, then we need end-game content like we need a hole in the head. Daily quests are an extremely stupid grind, barely more interesting than just grinding mobs. Honestly, WoW's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. The game dissolves into a very repetitive grind in general, but Daily Quests are definitely the worst "end-game" grind in the game. Soloing in a multiplayer game is a contradiction in terms. You can do it, and in modern MMORPGs, you can do it quite efficiently. but player interaction should always be encouraged over solo play. The minute solo play becomes an efficient and fun way to progress through the endgame is the minute that pretty much all forms of group based content pretty much dies. Story quests are a different beast entirely. Sure, I have no problem with that sort of thing being solo oriented but the problem is most players won't consider that the "endgame" unless it provides them the fastest route to the best gear possible. Again, if solo quests allow players to obtain the best gear, group play will die.
If you are looking for the fastest route to the best gear (or anything, really), then you are not playing the game in the sense of play. In the sense of doing it for enjoyment. I do not understand people that rush through a game, or try to min-max. I know people want to perform well, but if being the fastest to the best gear is your goal, you have, in my opinion, a very warped opinion of fun.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
They have end game. They can grind boars. That is what they were doing the whole time. Oh they want it to be quest? Here, have dailies. No more boar grind. Now you grind boar tails!
So what was your issue again?
Endgame is when player power is normalized and you can make well tuned encounters. Boar grinders do not want challenge, they never faced challenge, there is nothing positive in endgame for them. They just want purple candy dispenser.
Want solo endgame with a purpose, play eternal level grinders.
They have end game. They can grind boars. That is what they were doing the whole time. Oh they want it to be quest? Here, have dailies. No more boar grind. Now you grind boar tails!
So what was your issue again?
Endgame is when player power is normalized and you can make well tuned encounters. Boar grinders do not want challenge, they never faced challenge, there is nothing positive in endgame for them. They just want purple candy dispenser.
Want solo endgame with a purpose, play eternal level grinders.
Type "eternal level grinders" into Google and be proud that you are number 1.
I wouldn't mind seeing some solo end game, personal instances or some such, class dependant of course. Would be sort of neat. As of now it usually is a reapeatable daily or some such crap.
Is it even possible to make a sustainable endgame for solo players? A raid can sometimes take weeks to learn a single boss and even then they have to farm the encounter over and over again. Single players would chew through their content much faster and I don't see how you can make it into the same kind of timesink without making it highly repetitive, eg daily quests.
Unless you think 'endgame' is simply repeating the same high level dungeon over and over again and are thus asking for more soloable pve instances, then it is understandable that the majority of actual endgame content caters to groups of players rather than the individual.
If all people are asking for is a more solo dungeons then that is more of a basic content issue then anything to do with the quasi-mythical 'endgame'. If it is more than simply having extra pve content, then what exactly are people asking for?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The idea that solo play is not a viable play style within an mmo is asinine, and only an idiot could suggest otherwise. Interaction in a mmorpg can take many forms, no approach is more correct or viable than any other, and while everyone pays the same fees to buy the game and subscribe, no style of play should suffer just to appease or cater to another. Would you idiots argue role-play should carry more weight than not engaging in active role-play, I doubt it, as most of you cannot be bothered with it.
To suggest there can be no challenge for solo play is even more moronic. Group players are able to balance skill sets to cover everything from dps, through crowd control, to healing and more by using different members within the group. Very few mmos allow solo play to cover everything needed; more often than not solo play requires a far greater understanding of one's class and skill set and greater resourcefulness to approach a problem than group play. Most "solo" players usually enjoy a multitude of approaches, including grouping and group content, and understand their class far better than someone who only ever relies on others for their enjoyment and taking up the slack.
However, solo play is just one approach and cannot cover everything, and is no more or less viable or correct than group play. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is a prat and not someone I would wish to group with, as it's clear this type of player would rather hide in the herd and allow others to make up for their short comings, than stand on their own merits and think and act for themselves.
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
The idea that solo play is not a viable play style within an mmo is asinine, and only an idiot could suggest otherwise. Interaction in a mmorpg can take many forms, no approach is more correct or viable than any other, and while everyone pays the same fees to buy the game and subscribe, no style of play should suffer just to appease or cater to another. Would you idiots argue role-play should carry more weight than not engaging in active role-play, I doubt it, as most of you cannot be bothered with it.
To suggest there can be no challenge for solo play is even more moronic. Group players are able to balance skill sets to cover everything from dps, through crowd control, to healing and more by using different members within the group. Very few mmos allow solo play to cover everything needed; more often than not solo play requires a far greater understanding of one's class and skill set and greater resourcefulness to approach a problem than group play. Most "solo" players usually enjoy a multitude of approaches, including grouping and group content, and understand their class far better than someone who only ever relies on others for their enjoyment and taking up the slack.
However, solo play is just one approach and cannot cover everything, and is no more or less viable or correct than group play. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is a prat and not someone I would wish to group with, as it's clear this type of player would rather hide in the herd and allow others to make up for their short comings, than stand on their own merits and think and act for themselves.
This is part of the problem with the thread, no one really seems to know what the argument is as the OP was so vague. Your post has merits and puts across some points which I fully agree with. But even saying that, I fail to see how it addresses any issue with regards to 'endgame'.
Developers add 'high level raids' and the like geared towards groups simply because it allows them to throw in ever tougher bosses and more elaborate encounters, things which simply would not be the same if geared towards a solo player. It's not a case of group play being more 'important' than solo play, it's simply a case that when designing a system around a group you have more scope for what you can do due to the fact a group can achieve more than a single player can.
The most obvious form of endgame for many is pvp, now a solo player can quite happily pvp on his own and 'progress', but he/she will never be able to dominate like a group will be able to. This does not mean that the group players are 'doing it right' it just means that by grouping they are (understandably) able to achieve more (or at least more rapidly).
Personally I find the whole idea of 'solo' and 'group' players an anathema, there are simply people who decide when they fancy grouping and when they fancy doing something on their own. I have lead pvp guilds in the past and even then I often found myself logging in an just wanting to do something solo from time to time. However it is clear to me why groups can achieve more than solo players can.
Again I think few would deny solo players more content in the form of dungeons etc, but then that is really only a content issue and not so much anything to do with 'endgame'.
Endgame for me is when you have set yourself up within a game and you start to make a name on your server and in your particular gaming community, be it through any means: crafting, pvp, social aspect, guild wars/zone domination, whatever. An individual can excel in this, but someone (a true solo player) who restricts themselves to themselves will not be able to.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The entire premise of this thread is foolish, like solo lpayers in MMO's are somehow second class citizens. In the end, the game companies don't care. A solo player's money spends the same as a perennial grouper. And they want both players money. Just like all the other so-called "divisions" in MMO's: PvE vs PvP, sandbox vs themepark, casual vs hardcore, etc, game companies try and find a mix of these various aspects that will yield the highest overall number of customers. MMO's are now mainstream and big business. No large company and most small companies are not going to make niche game that deliberately excludes potential customers. That means no PvE only, no forced grouping only, etc. The genre now has too many fans (or in game company terms; "resource nodes 'O cash") in each of these interest groups to ignore.
That wasnt my intention.
In my opinion I feel a soloist should have some type of progression path at cap.
In my opinion I consider both types of players equal.
As an example good content for a soloist at cap are More quests hubs (obviously), Solo dungeons leading to tiered advancement , Master crafts, Reputation advancement, For pvp it could be solo queueing for instanced pvp or just a world pvp token system for the soloist to work on. Things like Hardmodes of existing quest hubs, an Achievements type mechanic with titles,
Thats what i consider an endgame to a person that prefers not to group all the time.
Honestly a lot of that stuff is in mmorps already their just kind of shallow at the moment.
When my kids were born it became quite hard to dedicate fixed hours in the week to raiding, so I quit. I do tend to group, but I am always cautious in engaging in ingame commitments that I may have to breach, hence why I often solo (though I prefer grouping) or revert to non-time restraint activities like PvP. An issue (not a problem) with typical MMO's is that you can't jump in and out of group content at will without hurting other people's experience.
Excuse me, but shouldn't solo players play single player games? That seems pretty obvious - MMOs for players that like to play together, single player games for players that want to play solo.
It is fine and ok rather that solo players can actually play some of MMO experience, but they shouldn't demand anything - they want to have solo centered experience, they should play single player games instead of stealing dev time that in MMOs should be devoted mainly to multiplayer features.
This is part of the problem with the thread, no one really seems to know what the argument is as the OP was so vague.
This my friend was intended.
Usually the best threads are the ones where the OP gives a nibble and lets the community run with in.
The thread is 140 posts long with interesting back and forth.
Hmm, whilst I can see where you are coming from with that, looking back over the thread 90% of those 140 posts seem to be rehashing the same point over and over again. Perhaps with slightly more clearly defined parameters there would be a touch more 'progression' to the whole thing.
Eitherway, given that for some 'endgame' is about development within a games specific community and not some arbitrary increase to a specfic stat or renown score. I can't really see how adding extra solo dungeons and the like (although more general content is always welcome) would increase a pure soloists endgame experience.
Endgame is about being the most renowned crafter, it's about guild wars and dominating parts of the map, it's about having an effect on the community. These are the things that you 'develop' once you have hit maxed level, not simply running yet another instanced raid or getting your gear score up.
The reason oldschool mmos and sandboxes have such a hook on people is due to the very nature of 'endgame', they allow for people to develop in complex ways within the community. That the term has become bastardized to simply mean 'high level content' is coupled with the fact that many modern mmos have limited ability to retain their playerbases as all there is to do is grind more points, grind more gear and rinse and repeat the grind. This is one of the major flaws with non open world themepark games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Originally posted by skeaser Originally posted by vajrav There shouldn't be endgame at all, neither for solo nor for group players. The game should go on forever.
This is the game that never ends, some people starting playing it not knowing exactly what it was....
Charlie the Horse FTW! but it would be more like:
this is the game that doesn't end yes it goes on and on, my friend. some people started playing it not knowing what it was but they'll continue playing it forever just because...
this is the game that doesn't end yes it goes on and on, my friend. some people started playing it not knowing what it was but they'll continue playing it forever just because...
As a quite experienced MMO player I have a little different opinion than most on this I see.
I play MMORPGs because of a love for immersive and expansive fantastical worlds, in any setting. What adds to the experience of an MMO is the ability to see other living characters (pc's) in the game world and do things with them. Be it grouping and taking on challenges together, or just hanging out around the city hubs and socializing. The addition of real players to a massive role playing game world adds to the general experience, whether as a solo player or as an avid grouper. Even if you don't do anything at all with other players, and focus on your own thing in the game world, having other players walking around doing their thing just makes the game world much more alive.
I enjoy the leveling experience because of my love for exploring. The nature of leveling is to go to a place, find some things to do and progress, then move on and find another place with things to do, which really suits my gaming preference. I just login when I want and play for as long as I enjoy playing, log out and continue when I feel like it.
The long-term goal of playing an MMO however is always to reach the high-level content, which is usually more interesting and challenging. As soon as I reach the cap the game, the same trend goes on: I log in when I want or am able to and play for the fun of it.
At cap this usually means doing some PVP, helping other people or just strolling around the massive world, sometimes joining a group for a high-level dungeon.
I would describe myself as a mostly solo-player, but I do know I enjoy the grouping content a hell of a lot more because of the player interaction. It's in every sense much more satisfying to me. Raiding is ultimate in terms of the actual gaming experience, it's just so damn impressive (in places where it actually requires interesting tactics and team work). Gear means nothing to me. I solo most of the time because I have a busy life, get up early in the mornings so I am not available at the night times that most people do raids or dungeons. Besides that, I am not up for playing any game that require me to schedule it into my calendar. This is a matter of personal taste, but no, I don't cross that line.
That means that in many cases at the level cap theres tons of content that's quite simply unavailable to me. Other than that, in PVP environments this also means that I am continuously up against players much more powerful (in raid-gear f.i.). These things combined turn me off so much I usually don't stay subbed too long after hitting the cap.
Expansions upping the cap helps in some instances. Other than providing more leveling content this means that "used-to-be-endgame" becomes available to the more casual players. After hitting the cap in WoW TBC I started doing small group raids (5-15) on old endgame content (onyxia, MC, etc) to much enjoyment. It's all about experiencing the content and challenge and not about what ends up on the corpse's loot bag or chest.
Being able to do these things with smaller groups and even pugs makes it enjoyable and reachable for so much more players. So I'd think scalable dungeons (scaled on group size and possibily even total stats (gear included)) to provide challenging environments and most content to as much players as possible. If you ask me, the ultimate loot should only be available to the ultimate crew, raiding at full capacity. The loot would act as the incentive to still raid full-on.
Add to this the possibility of cross-realm grouping and I'm sure there'd always be enough players online to fill any group for your preferred dungeon.
Depends on the target audience of the game doesn't it? The question should be, how much more solo content do you feel you must have to feel equal to the grouping and raiding crowd?
Looking at everyones favorite MMO, the soloer already has more content than both groupers and raiders combined.
I don't think it's so much being equal to the grouper. It's just having something to do that doesn't bore you to death and make you reroll. I remember soloing I'n games like Wow and wishing blizzard updated oldr quest hubs. Kinda like making them age and continuing the story of even playing through a prequel of the main storyline. I know there's tons of solo friendly leveling content but I feel it's a bit limited at max level.
Well, when WOW first came out I'll agree it was a bit of a bait and switch, where you could more or less solo to cap then suddenly found the end game content all group based (5 mans and up).
I think they improved upon it quite a bit in subsequent releases, but I'll agree someone could probably do a better job of adding solo content to end games rather than have it all be so group oriented, especially from a PVE perspective.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Excuse me, but shouldn't solo players play single player games?
That seems pretty obvious - MMOs for players that like to play together, single player games for players that want to play solo.
It is fine and ok rather that solo players can actually play some of MMO experience, but they shouldn't demand anything - they want to have solo centered experience, they should play single player games instead of stealing dev time that in MMOs should be devoted mainly to multiplayer features.
There is no reason whatsoever that solo players " should play " single player games, I don't think the definition of MMO's is about grouping or being required to group. The ability to play one's game the way they choose be it solo or with groups is their choice.
Solo players still benefit from the social aspect of MMO's, as well as the economic aspect ( for example if i don't want to make potions, I can still get them on the market because someone else made them ). even though I mostly play solo these days( used to be hardcore ) I still find the interaction/chat/markets/seeing other people moving and knowing i am not in a world alone important for a solid experience in gaming.
I would hazard a guess that an extremely large percentage of MMORPG players these days are more solo oriented with occasional grouping than vice versa. That being said my personal opinion is that running raid dungeons over and over and over again does not constitute an end game either.
Again this is my opinion MMO's are also for people who enjoy playing their game simutaneously to other's not necessarily with other's
Is it even possible to make a sustainable endgame for solo players? A raid can sometimes take weeks to learn a single boss and even then they have to farm the encounter over and over again. Single players would chew through their content much faster and I don't see how you can make it into the same kind of timesink without making it highly repetitive, eg daily quests.
It would be easier to make a more random spawn single player instance. But yeah, raids are only hard because you have to herd 25-40 people and that is the only challenge of a raid.
Er what is 'endgame' exactly? It cant be quests as you've already mentioned that as part of the solo players remit.
I think it is when you are at max level with the best gear possible and have seen all there is to see.
I don't however think that there really is a endgame in an MMORPG but I guess that it's hard for the counterstrikers to wrap their heads around that.
Actually, the FPS players seem to have a much better grasp on it than the MMO gamers.
But the true humor here is how much the same people that feel the platform is stale and pumping out copycat games are the first ones to rebuke and denounce any MMO that deviates from the dacades-old DikuMUD formula.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I do like this forum for threads like this. Though I do think the question is maybe wrong- endgame as it suggests is a game when you've come to the end of your path. Where path is usually perhaps a solo route.
Comments
Dont wanna group ..then your playing in the wrong genre!
Solo is fine for getting to max level..but endgame should always be about Teamwork.
just my 2 cents!
If you are looking for the fastest route to the best gear (or anything, really), then you are not playing the game in the sense of play. In the sense of doing it for enjoyment. I do not understand people that rush through a game, or try to min-max. I know people want to perform well, but if being the fastest to the best gear is your goal, you have, in my opinion, a very warped opinion of fun.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
They have end game. They can grind boars. That is what they were doing the whole time. Oh they want it to be quest? Here, have dailies. No more boar grind. Now you grind boar tails!
So what was your issue again?
Endgame is when player power is normalized and you can make well tuned encounters. Boar grinders do not want challenge, they never faced challenge, there is nothing positive in endgame for them. They just want purple candy dispenser.
Want solo endgame with a purpose, play eternal level grinders.
No they should be rounded up and forced to group.
Type "eternal level grinders" into Google and be proud that you are number 1.
I wouldn't mind seeing some solo end game, personal instances or some such, class dependant of course. Would be sort of neat. As of now it usually is a reapeatable daily or some such crap.
are you guys saying solo players should run in instances alone? That sounds as fun as playing an mmo without other players.
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
Is it even possible to make a sustainable endgame for solo players? A raid can sometimes take weeks to learn a single boss and even then they have to farm the encounter over and over again. Single players would chew through their content much faster and I don't see how you can make it into the same kind of timesink without making it highly repetitive, eg daily quests.
Unless you think 'endgame' is simply repeating the same high level dungeon over and over again and are thus asking for more soloable pve instances, then it is understandable that the majority of actual endgame content caters to groups of players rather than the individual.
If all people are asking for is a more solo dungeons then that is more of a basic content issue then anything to do with the quasi-mythical 'endgame'. If it is more than simply having extra pve content, then what exactly are people asking for?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
The idea that solo play is not a viable play style within an mmo is asinine, and only an idiot could suggest otherwise. Interaction in a mmorpg can take many forms, no approach is more correct or viable than any other, and while everyone pays the same fees to buy the game and subscribe, no style of play should suffer just to appease or cater to another. Would you idiots argue role-play should carry more weight than not engaging in active role-play, I doubt it, as most of you cannot be bothered with it.
To suggest there can be no challenge for solo play is even more moronic. Group players are able to balance skill sets to cover everything from dps, through crowd control, to healing and more by using different members within the group. Very few mmos allow solo play to cover everything needed; more often than not solo play requires a far greater understanding of one's class and skill set and greater resourcefulness to approach a problem than group play. Most "solo" players usually enjoy a multitude of approaches, including grouping and group content, and understand their class far better than someone who only ever relies on others for their enjoyment and taking up the slack.
However, solo play is just one approach and cannot cover everything, and is no more or less viable or correct than group play. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is a prat and not someone I would wish to group with, as it's clear this type of player would rather hide in the herd and allow others to make up for their short comings, than stand on their own merits and think and act for themselves.
My Colour Is Vomit green, I puke on the tards with stupid colour sigs. My symbol is ,,!, O ,!,, My enemies are any prat with a colour sig, a meaningless personality test, or a pointless list of games and classes.
Regards Hexcaliber
There shouldn't be endgame at all, neither for solo nor for group players.
The game should go on forever.
This is part of the problem with the thread, no one really seems to know what the argument is as the OP was so vague. Your post has merits and puts across some points which I fully agree with. But even saying that, I fail to see how it addresses any issue with regards to 'endgame'.
Developers add 'high level raids' and the like geared towards groups simply because it allows them to throw in ever tougher bosses and more elaborate encounters, things which simply would not be the same if geared towards a solo player. It's not a case of group play being more 'important' than solo play, it's simply a case that when designing a system around a group you have more scope for what you can do due to the fact a group can achieve more than a single player can.
The most obvious form of endgame for many is pvp, now a solo player can quite happily pvp on his own and 'progress', but he/she will never be able to dominate like a group will be able to. This does not mean that the group players are 'doing it right' it just means that by grouping they are (understandably) able to achieve more (or at least more rapidly).
Personally I find the whole idea of 'solo' and 'group' players an anathema, there are simply people who decide when they fancy grouping and when they fancy doing something on their own. I have lead pvp guilds in the past and even then I often found myself logging in an just wanting to do something solo from time to time. However it is clear to me why groups can achieve more than solo players can.
Again I think few would deny solo players more content in the form of dungeons etc, but then that is really only a content issue and not so much anything to do with 'endgame'.
Endgame for me is when you have set yourself up within a game and you start to make a name on your server and in your particular gaming community, be it through any means: crafting, pvp, social aspect, guild wars/zone domination, whatever. An individual can excel in this, but someone (a true solo player) who restricts themselves to themselves will not be able to.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
That wasnt my intention.
In my opinion I feel a soloist should have some type of progression path at cap.
In my opinion I consider both types of players equal.
As an example good content for a soloist at cap are More quests hubs (obviously), Solo dungeons leading to tiered advancement , Master crafts, Reputation advancement, For pvp it could be solo queueing for instanced pvp or just a world pvp token system for the soloist to work on. Things like Hardmodes of existing quest hubs, an Achievements type mechanic with titles,
Thats what i consider an endgame to a person that prefers not to group all the time.
Honestly a lot of that stuff is in mmorps already their just kind of shallow at the moment.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This my friend was intended.
Usually the best threads are the ones where the OP gives a nibble and lets the community run with in.
The thread is 140 posts long with interesting back and forth.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
This is the game that never ends, some people starting playing it not knowing exactly what it was....
When my kids were born it became quite hard to dedicate fixed hours in the week to raiding, so I quit. I do tend to group, but I am always cautious in engaging in ingame commitments that I may have to breach, hence why I often solo (though I prefer grouping) or revert to non-time restraint activities like PvP. An issue (not a problem) with typical MMO's is that you can't jump in and out of group content at will without hurting other people's experience.
Excuse me, but shouldn't solo players play single player games?
That seems pretty obvious - MMOs for players that like to play together, single player games for players that want to play solo.
It is fine and ok rather that solo players can actually play some of MMO experience, but they shouldn't demand anything - they want to have solo centered experience, they should play single player games instead of stealing dev time that in MMOs should be devoted mainly to multiplayer features.
http://www.teraonline.info.pl Polski Poradnik Gry Tera Online
Hmm, whilst I can see where you are coming from with that, looking back over the thread 90% of those 140 posts seem to be rehashing the same point over and over again. Perhaps with slightly more clearly defined parameters there would be a touch more 'progression' to the whole thing.
Eitherway, given that for some 'endgame' is about development within a games specific community and not some arbitrary increase to a specfic stat or renown score. I can't really see how adding extra solo dungeons and the like (although more general content is always welcome) would increase a pure soloists endgame experience.
Endgame is about being the most renowned crafter, it's about guild wars and dominating parts of the map, it's about having an effect on the community. These are the things that you 'develop' once you have hit maxed level, not simply running yet another instanced raid or getting your gear score up.
The reason oldschool mmos and sandboxes have such a hook on people is due to the very nature of 'endgame', they allow for people to develop in complex ways within the community. That the term has become bastardized to simply mean 'high level content' is coupled with the fact that many modern mmos have limited ability to retain their playerbases as all there is to do is grind more points, grind more gear and rinse and repeat the grind. This is one of the major flaws with non open world themepark games.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Charlie the Horse FTW!
but it would be more like:
this is the game that doesn't end
yes it goes on and on, my friend.
some people started playing it
not knowing what it was
but they'll continue playing it
forever just because...
this is the game that doesn't end
yes it goes on and on, my friend.
some people started playing it
not knowing what it was
but they'll continue playing it
forever just because...
http://www.teraonline.info.pl Polski Poradnik Gry Tera Online
As a quite experienced MMO player I have a little different opinion than most on this I see.
I play MMORPGs because of a love for immersive and expansive fantastical worlds, in any setting. What adds to the experience of an MMO is the ability to see other living characters (pc's) in the game world and do things with them. Be it grouping and taking on challenges together, or just hanging out around the city hubs and socializing. The addition of real players to a massive role playing game world adds to the general experience, whether as a solo player or as an avid grouper. Even if you don't do anything at all with other players, and focus on your own thing in the game world, having other players walking around doing their thing just makes the game world much more alive.
I enjoy the leveling experience because of my love for exploring. The nature of leveling is to go to a place, find some things to do and progress, then move on and find another place with things to do, which really suits my gaming preference. I just login when I want and play for as long as I enjoy playing, log out and continue when I feel like it.
The long-term goal of playing an MMO however is always to reach the high-level content, which is usually more interesting and challenging. As soon as I reach the cap the game, the same trend goes on: I log in when I want or am able to and play for the fun of it.
At cap this usually means doing some PVP, helping other people or just strolling around the massive world, sometimes joining a group for a high-level dungeon.
I would describe myself as a mostly solo-player, but I do know I enjoy the grouping content a hell of a lot more because of the player interaction. It's in every sense much more satisfying to me. Raiding is ultimate in terms of the actual gaming experience, it's just so damn impressive (in places where it actually requires interesting tactics and team work). Gear means nothing to me. I solo most of the time because I have a busy life, get up early in the mornings so I am not available at the night times that most people do raids or dungeons. Besides that, I am not up for playing any game that require me to schedule it into my calendar. This is a matter of personal taste, but no, I don't cross that line.
That means that in many cases at the level cap theres tons of content that's quite simply unavailable to me. Other than that, in PVP environments this also means that I am continuously up against players much more powerful (in raid-gear f.i.). These things combined turn me off so much I usually don't stay subbed too long after hitting the cap.
Expansions upping the cap helps in some instances. Other than providing more leveling content this means that "used-to-be-endgame" becomes available to the more casual players. After hitting the cap in WoW TBC I started doing small group raids (5-15) on old endgame content (onyxia, MC, etc) to much enjoyment. It's all about experiencing the content and challenge and not about what ends up on the corpse's loot bag or chest.
Being able to do these things with smaller groups and even pugs makes it enjoyable and reachable for so much more players. So I'd think scalable dungeons (scaled on group size and possibily even total stats (gear included)) to provide challenging environments and most content to as much players as possible. If you ask me, the ultimate loot should only be available to the ultimate crew, raiding at full capacity. The loot would act as the incentive to still raid full-on.
Add to this the possibility of cross-realm grouping and I'm sure there'd always be enough players online to fill any group for your preferred dungeon.
Well, when WOW first came out I'll agree it was a bit of a bait and switch, where you could more or less solo to cap then suddenly found the end game content all group based (5 mans and up).
I think they improved upon it quite a bit in subsequent releases, but I'll agree someone could probably do a better job of adding solo content to end games rather than have it all be so group oriented, especially from a PVE perspective.
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It would be easier to make a more random spawn single player instance. But yeah, raids are only hard because you have to herd 25-40 people and that is the only challenge of a raid.
Actually, the FPS players seem to have a much better grasp on it than the MMO gamers.
But the true humor here is how much the same people that feel the platform is stale and pumping out copycat games are the first ones to rebuke and denounce any MMO that deviates from the dacades-old DikuMUD formula.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
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I do like this forum for threads like this. Though I do think the question is maybe wrong- endgame as it suggests is a game when you've come to the end of your path. Where path is usually perhaps a solo route.