Thanks for sharing your opinion on this subject Elikal, but as you can see it's just that, your opinion.
People will continue to do as they please with their bodies because that is what they choose, its called freedom last time i checked.
i guess you can continue with your crusade but it won't get anywhere and people will continue to do whatever makes them happy.
I can not change the world. And apparently not people. But I feel I need to speak up when something troubles my conscience. I say what I think, then people follow or disagree. But I felt it was the obligation to my code of honor to speak up, despite the expected harrasment and anger for disturbing people's complacency.
That is an honorable thing to do, and this topic is not addressed much so its a fun one to get different views from.
I disagree. When he frames it as disturbing people's complacency, he is doing a disservice not only to everyone reading or writing in the thread, but also to himself. Saying straight up that the reason people are disagreeing with him is because they are complacent is the least honorable thing he could do. Yet, here he is with all his honor and conscience claiming that what he says is the right way and because other people don't agree they are complacent.
Obviously I'm not being complacent. Obviously Devil isn't being complacent. Obviously you aren't being complacent. These are actually real issues to all of the people here.
He's not being honorable at all in my opinion.
I feel as though he is trying to force women to submit to what men deem appropriate attire based on his narrowminded point of view. Using assault on women as a justification for furthering his agenda rather than see it for what it is:
Threatening women with assault for not obeying what a man deems appropriate.
That IS what it is and I see no honor in that whatsoever.
Obey?
I explain the causualities and relations of things as I see them. You are free to deal with that as you want. Of the consequences of our actions and behavior we are, however, never free. That is no oppression from my side, is tha the natural relation of cause and effect in society.
You may define your modern liberalism. Reality alas does not always follow wishful idealism. Trust me. I know, because I tried. I was once just as liberal and trusting as you. Just that it doesn't function in reality in the long run. But I guess we (as a human civilization) will have to learn - again - the hard way.
I am neither conservative, but nor am I liberal. But what I see is a society torn between the extremes. Total nihilistic liberals vs right wing extremists. Look at our western countries! Don't you see what's going on? We are torn between nihilistic destruction and the oppression of the religious right, and there seems to be no balance or self-control, no in between. That is what I think to fight. Alas, it makes me the enemy for both. For the liberal I will be the conservative evil, for the conservative the liberlist evil. It is what is lost to us: a decend balance between liberty and ethics. And as all overly liberal and nihilistic era, ours will swing to the other extreme again and right wing extremists will gain the power. Reaction and counter reaction.
How foolish of me to try to break this circle, indeed. But how little the chances are, I feel it my obligation to duty and ethics to say my thing nonetheless and ignore all the threats of being cast as outsider and ridiculous.
Trusting? Far from it, I HAVE been assaulted by a man who is apprently one of those that think they entitled to take what they please. Yes it is about The premise that a woman should obey a man. I trust men as far as I can throw them, and since I am a petite female, that isn;t very far.
You view things from a perspective that women dress to a mans whims, where I say women dress to their own whims disregarding men. The idea that women should " hide" themselves in fear of what man would do to them is cowardly and absurd and has NO place in modern society. Think what you will when you see female flesh, men are entitled to their own thoughts, but when you act upon those thoughts that becomes a different matter all together.
It would more honorable to endorse self control, rather than " hide the women" from the men. There is a huge difference. I do not find it ethical to hide the women because the men cannot control themselves. Rather than teach women to hide and be cowards, we should teach them to defend themslves and be brave.
Maybe it's because the house I was raised in, but I subscribe to the celtic way of thinking that the woman is equal to the man. Which is funny because back then it confused the hell out of the other now ancient civilizations.
Heh, now that I think about it, my Ancestors ran around in battle naked to scare enemies.
I think they did a great job on their costumes as well.
Why would you attack a game about what female characters are wearing when it has been shown repeatedly that women LIKE the sexy female characters. The truth is we are women, we love our curves, our breasts, and wouldn;t wnat it any other way. It is men who seem to have a problem when they see breasts, not the other way around. LOL
We look at breasts every day. They are attached to us. Why men try to make them out to be a bad thing, that should be hidden is beyond me.
OOOOH! OOOOHHH!! ME TOO! MEEE TOOO!!!
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Thanks for sharing your opinion on this subject Elikal, but as you can see it's just that, your opinion.
People will continue to do as they please with their bodies because that is what they choose, its called freedom last time i checked.
i guess you can continue with your crusade but it won't get anywhere and people will continue to do whatever makes them happy.
I can not change the world. And apparently not people. But I feel I need to speak up when something troubles my conscience. I say what I think, then people follow or disagree. But I felt it was the obligation to my code of honor to speak up, despite the expected harrasment and anger for disturbing people's complacency.
That is an honorable thing to do, and this topic is not addressed much so its a fun one to get different views from.
I disagree. When he frames it as disturbing people's complacency, he is doing a disservice not only to everyone reading or writing in the thread, but also to himself. Saying straight up that the reason people are disagreeing with him is because they are complacent is the least honorable thing he could do. Yet, here he is with all his honor and conscience claiming that what he says is the right way and because other people don't agree they are complacent.
Obviously I'm not being complacent. Obviously Devil isn't being complacent. Obviously you aren't being complacent. These are actually real issues to all of the people here.
He's not being honorable at all in my opinion.
I feel as though he is trying to force women to submit to what men deem appropriate attire based on his narrowminded point of view. Using assault on women as a justification for furthering his agenda rather than see it for what it is:
Threatening women with assault for not obeying what a man deems appropriate.
That IS what it is and I see no honor in that whatsoever.
Obey?
I explain the causualities and relations of things as I see them. You are free to deal with that as you want. Of the consequences of our actions and behavior we are, however, never free. That is no oppression from my side, is tha the natural relation of cause and effect in society.
You may define your modern liberalism. Reality alas does not always follow wishful idealism. Trust me. I know, because I tried. I was once just as liberal and trusting as you. Just that it doesn't function in reality in the long run. But I guess we (as a human civilization) will have to learn - again - the hard way.
I am neither conservative, but nor am I liberal. But what I see is a society torn between the extremes. Total nihilistic liberals vs right wing extremists. Look at our western countries! Don't you see what's going on? We are torn between nihilistic destruction and the oppression of the religious right, and there seems to be no balance or self-control, no in between. That is what I think to fight. Alas, it makes me the enemy for both. For the liberal I will be the conservative evil, for the conservative the liberlist evil. It is what is lost to us: a decend balance between liberty and ethics. And as all overly liberal and nihilistic era, ours will swing to the other extreme again and right wing extremists will gain the power. Reaction and counter reaction.
How foolish of me to try to break this circle, indeed. But how little the chances are, I feel it my obligation to duty and ethics to say my thing nonetheless and ignore all the threats of being cast as outsider and ridiculous.
Trusting? Far from it, I HAVE been assaulted by a man who is apprently one of those that think they entitled to take what they please. Yes it is about The premise that a woman should obey a man. I trust men as far as I can throw them, and since I am a petite female, that isn;t very far.
You view things from a perspective that women dress to a mans whims, where I say women dress to their own whims disregarding men. The idea that women should " hide" themselves in fear of what man would do to them is cowardly and absurd and has NO place in modern society. Think what you will when you see female flesh, men are entitled to their own thoughts, but when you act upon those thoughts that becomes a different matter all together.
It would more honorable to endorse self control, rather than " hide the women" from the men. There is a huge difference. I do not find it ethical to hide the women because the men cannot control themselves. Rather than teach women to hide and be cowards, we should teach them to defend themslves and be brave.
Maybe it's because the house I was raised in, but I subscribe to the celtic way of thinking that the woman is equal to the man. Which is funny because back then it confused the hell out of the other now ancient civilizations.
Heh, now that I think about it, my Ancestors ran around in battle naked to scare enemies.
Elika probably hates my existence now. Shame.
The sad thing is that many of the Native tribes had more equality between genders than modern society, yet, they are the ones considered " heathens" LMAO!
Judaism played a major role in portraying the role of a woman to serve a man, and all the religions that stemmed from this are responsible for this existing in modern society to this day.
The sad thing is that many of the Native tribes had more equality between genders than modern society, yet, they are the ones considered " heathens" LMAO!
Judaism played a major role in portraying the role of a woman to serve a man, and all the religions that stemmed from this are responsible for this existing in modern society to this day.
No offense but you have alot of education to catch up on.
On this costume thing...I don't think the girls/women are being exploited but it does look like they're always trying to turn these shows into a beauty pageant instead of a costume competition. Both sides probably share the blame for that one.
Why dont we attack the game, that make female characters dressed like that in the first place?
Anyway,my gf did really enjoy looking at those vids here. She loved the costumes.
I think they did a great job on their costumes as well.
Why would you attack a game about what female characters are wearing when it has been shown repeatedly that women LIKE the sexy female characters. The truth is we are women, we love our curves, our breasts, and wouldn;t wnat it any other way. It is men who seem to have a problem when they see breasts, not the other way around. LOL
We look at breasts every day. They are attached to us. Why men try to make them out to be a bad thing, that should be hidden is beyond me.
I looked at the pictures and videos, I really didn't see anything "slutty"or waaay out there. Some women with more curve showed more skin than others, but that just means they want to show off their good body. Kind of like guys with a good build wearing tank tops or go around shirtless.
I don't know maybe I've been on the internet for too long, seen too many costume at gaming events/conventions, or just surfed too much porn. But I really didn't see anything even remotely close to being inappropriate in those pics. Anybody remember Firiona Vie from good 'ol EQ days back in the early 2000's? That showed more skin than most of the costumes I've seen here.
I just don't see what the big hairy deal is. People there seemed to be having a good time.
I can not help but laugh at this whole post and most of the thread...Are you trying to score points with females because you can't score points in the real world or are you actually trying to say "please don't look a X because they are wearing costumes" or "Don't look at anyone who is naked in society" I means seriously...if you watch TV at home, you are doing it in PRIVATE PROPERTY. Public relates to being outside and available... Nice Job putting the blame on anyone who "looks" and not putting the blame on the actual people who DO GO OUT SEEKING ATTENTION wearing nearly nothing.
Conclusion:
"Let's blame and punish the victim and reward or do nothing to the cause"
I can not help but laugh at this whole post and most of the thread...Are you trying to score points with females because you can't score points in the real world or are you actually trying to say "please don't look a X because they are wearing costumes" or "Don't look at anyone who is naked in society" I means seriously...if you watch TV at home, you are doing it in PRIVATE PROPERTY. Public relates to being outside and available... Nice Job putting the blame on anyone who "looks" and not putting the blame on the actual people who DO GO OUT SEEKING ATTENTION wearing nearly nothing.
Conclusion:
"Let's blame and punish the victim and reward or do nothing to the cause"
very well put, *thumbs up*
The OP likes dudes... by his own admission. I doubt this has anything to do with him tryin to "get with the females".
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I definitely don't mind looking at scantily clad women but I can see where the OP is coming from. A lot of women in America seem to be wearing less and less these days. If I was sensitive to women showing off their goods then I would be pretty outraged with how the public portrays women and how a lot of women decide to portray themselves.
The subject of blaming raped women because they dressed ...slutty is interesting. Women for the most part are the ones being pursued for relationships or other desires:
Lets go to the Running of the Bulls in Spain. Lets say that the bull is "raping mc rapist" and the people running from it are all women. The bull might rape anyone in its crosshairs but it will most likely pay more attention to a woman in the crowd that's wearing a red mini skirt with matching stilettos.
There's no excuse for a woman to be raped but how they dress might encourage unwanted attention. Don't chose to be ignorant to the dangers around you. This is why most people lock their doors in their home and keep a close eye on their children because there are boogiemen out there.
We already know we are the far superior gender. We can make men do as we please by just revealing parts of our skin. You are all doomed to be ruled by boobs FOREVER!! Mwahahah!!
Tell that the many raped women who "ruled men" with their naked skin.
By men reasoning just like you... You sicken me.
I think we have a self-righteous serial rapist/killer in the making.
I don't know who you think you are supporting but you certainly aren't supporting the girls that worked hard on those costumes and want to show them off.
Ever heard of such a thing as socialization? People believe in the chains which whom they grew up. Example: back then when slavery was normal, a lot of slaves never doubted that this was the natural way of things. Awareness of repression is something people have to learn, it does not fall from trees.
And right now you are attempting to keep women in their "chains." You want their choice to dress up in a costume and have pictures taken of them taken away from them. You are repressing them, not allowing them more freedoms.
I sometimes wonder if these posts are serious, but have to sadly conclude that they are. My goodness, where to start ... Perhaps you could ask some questions of yourself such as why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't? Where might women have got ideas that their bodies are to be sexualised as often and as publicly as they are?
Are you aware of history at all? Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures? Have you heard of patriarchy? Social conditioning?
Finally, to my mind the woman in the burkha and the women scantily dressed are two sides of the same coin: both are responding to male ideas of how women should behave. It is sad to me to see thongs for sale in supermarkets in the UK aimed at girls as young as 9 (a mother of a daughter told me this). Sexualisation of women in all contexts is now being broadened to include younger and younger girls, and, thank goodness, there are people who are beginning to question this and to point out that for a girl/woman to feel obliged to portray herself as sexual (in a narrowly, male-defined way) most of the time is not freedom, nor choice, it is constraining, reductionist and demeaning.
I don't know who you think you are supporting but you certainly aren't supporting the girls that worked hard on those costumes and want to show them off.
Ever heard of such a thing as socialization? People believe in the chains which whom they grew up. Example: back then when slavery was normal, a lot of slaves never doubted that this was the natural way of things. Awareness of repression is something people have to learn, it does not fall from trees.
And right now you are attempting to keep women in their "chains." You want their choice to dress up in a costume and have pictures taken of them taken away from them. You are repressing them, not allowing them more freedoms.
I sometimes wonder if these posts are serious, but have to sadly conclude that they are. My goodness, where to start ... Perhaps you could ask some questions of yourself such as why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't? Where might women have got ideas that their bodies are to be sexualised as often and as publicly as they are?
Are you aware of history at all? Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures? Have you heard of patriarchy? Social conditioning?
Finally, to my mind the woman in the burkha and the women scantily dressed are two sides of the same coin: both are responding to male ideas of how women should behave. It is sad to me to see thongs for sale in supermarkets in the UK aimed at girls as young as 9 (a mother of a daughter told me this). Sexualisation of women in all contexts is now being broadened to include younger and younger girls, and, thank goodness, there are people who are beginning to question this and to point out that for a girl/woman to feel obliged to portray herself as sexual (in a narrowly, male-defined way) most of the time is not freedom, nor choice, it is constraining, reductionist and demeaning.
For someone who claims to know all about cultural norms, patriarchy and social conditioning, you are certainly rather narrow-minded. You are reasoning from whatever norms and values you yourself hold. Whether you want to forbid or exclude women from making the choice to dress scantily or not, you apparently go wrong either way with feminists.
Yes, there is social conditioning and cultural norms dictating that it is okay or even, to some extent, encouraged for women to dress scantily. But you could argue this is the same for every trend, behaviour or extended phenotype for every person or social group. What makes sexualisation any different? They're okay with it. You feel they are degrading themselves. Would you dance in your underwear for $250 an hour? What about $2000? Obviously they themselves do not think it is degrading - their dignity has a price, and they are willing to sell it. Some of them have fun doing so. There are male models too - why the double standard? Why is everything women do somehow the fault of men?
It is not like women do not put sexual selection pressures on men, too. Many do everything to be rich, buff, handsome and succesful - that is the sexual selection pressures put on them by women, much like how beauty is a selection criterium for men. It has worked like that for thousands of years - this is no 'decline of civilisation'. I'm have a degree in psychology and I am a bioarchaeology student, I'm not new to either sides of this coin. In fact, you could see all of this of an extension of what happens in nature among pretty much any other vertebrata.
Stop blaming everything on 'the patriarchy' and 'men'.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
It was explained on the first page that dressing up and getting their picture taken is entirely their choice. If they want to do it, let them.
I don't see why this thread is still open.
He is upset because he does not get boy candy.
I've been wanting to say this for a while now, just never got around to it. Couldn't find the right words to say without sounding like a complete and utter asshole.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
It was explained on the first page that dressing up and getting their picture taken is entirely their choice. If they want to do it, let them.
I don't see why this thread is still open.
He is upset because he does not get boy candy.
I've been wanting to say this for a while now, just never got around to it. Couldn't find the right words to say without sounding like a complete and utter asshole.
I don't know who you think you are supporting but you certainly aren't supporting the girls that worked hard on those costumes and want to show them off.
Ever heard of such a thing as socialization? People believe in the chains which whom they grew up. Example: back then when slavery was normal, a lot of slaves never doubted that this was the natural way of things. Awareness of repression is something people have to learn, it does not fall from trees.
And right now you are attempting to keep women in their "chains." You want their choice to dress up in a costume and have pictures taken of them taken away from them. You are repressing them, not allowing them more freedoms.
I sometimes wonder if these posts are serious, but have to sadly conclude that they are. My goodness, where to start ... Perhaps you could ask some questions of yourself such as why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't? Where might women have got ideas that their bodies are to be sexualised as often and as publicly as they are?
Are you aware of history at all? Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures? Have you heard of patriarchy? Social conditioning?
Finally, to my mind the woman in the burkha and the women scantily dressed are two sides of the same coin: both are responding to male ideas of how women should behave. It is sad to me to see thongs for sale in supermarkets in the UK aimed at girls as young as 9 (a mother of a daughter told me this). Sexualisation of women in all contexts is now being broadened to include younger and younger girls, and, thank goodness, there are people who are beginning to question this and to point out that for a girl/woman to feel obliged to portray herself as sexual (in a narrowly, male-defined way) most of the time is not freedom, nor choice, it is constraining, reductionist and demeaning.
I doubt I could write a more condescending or delusional post if I tried. But I might as well find out, right?
First of all, it might be a good idea to actually answer some of your own questions and put a lot of thought into them. Lets review the first half of your post (which consists of questions, not answers).
Why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't?
That's just it. The women do not "need" to dress up provocatively. They choose to using their own free will. To say otherwise would be an argument against personal freedom (which is fine, but I doubt that you would even understand where to go once you got there). The question you ask implies the following: "I am a victim and have been forced to choose to dress provocatively by men."
And to this I say, "Shame on you for believing that women are so weak they do not have the power to decide things for themselves." By playing the victim, you have already lost the battle that you are apparently attempting to fight. You look at women that are dressed provocatively and you think of them as weaker than those that dress conservatively. To you, the women that dress provocatively have been victims of societal norms. They have been victims of a patriarchal society. They are victims of social conditioning.
Somehow, you have managed to come to this conclusion without ever questioning whether your belief system has fallen victim to social conditioning. You have never questioned whether your point of view is a victim of patriarchal society. You do not wonder if you are the one that has fallen victim to social norms.
The truth is that you are the victim. The woman that chooses what she does and what she wants to do is more free of social norms than you could ever be. The real victim of patriarchal society is the woman that feels like she must cover herself or be labeled a whore. The real victim of social conditioning is the woman that believes with all her heart that beautiful women in magazines are slaves to some imaginary demon that goes by the name of "man".
Are you aware of history at all?
Yes, I am vaguely aware of history. A history where nudity was shameful. A history where women were not allowed to vote. A history of women being treated like property. A history where the mere hint of a nipple was disgraceful and unnerving.
We are in a historical time right now. Women are achieving more than they ever have. Women are in places of power. Women are choosing to do things they have never been given a choice to do before. We are in the most enlightened time in the history of the world and women are becoming the societal equals to man. This is something relatively new and amazing.
Yet, there are some people, like you, that would choose to hold onto conservative ideals about women. Some people believe that women should be covered up and not have a choice. Some people believe that it is the males fault that women are choosing to be sexy. Indeed, it is the opposite in almost every single case. Men, historically, have tried to keep their women covered up. They have tried to keep their women out of the public eye against their will. Just like you are proposing we do.
Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures?
I have no clue what you are trying to say here. Perhaps you are trying to say that... actually, I really don't know where you were going with this.
Yes, I knew that.
Have you heard of patriarchy?
Yes. And I feel that you are heavily influenced by it's standards that were set a long time ago. While our society is still highly patriarchal, it is less patriarchal than it has ever been in the history of the world. And it is getting less patriarchal every day.
Comments
Maybe it's because the house I was raised in, but I subscribe to the celtic way of thinking that the woman is equal to the man. Which is funny because back then it confused the hell out of the other now ancient civilizations.
Heh, now that I think about it, my Ancestors ran around in battle naked to scare enemies.
Elika probably hates my existence now. Shame.
OOOOH! OOOOHHH!! ME TOO! MEEE TOOO!!!
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
The sad thing is that many of the Native tribes had more equality between genders than modern society, yet, they are the ones considered " heathens" LMAO!
Judaism played a major role in portraying the role of a woman to serve a man, and all the religions that stemmed from this are responsible for this existing in modern society to this day.
No offense but you have alot of education to catch up on.
On this costume thing...I don't think the girls/women are being exploited but it does look like they're always trying to turn these shows into a beauty pageant instead of a costume competition. Both sides probably share the blame for that one.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Sign me up, I'm on board!!!!!!!!
I looked at the pictures and videos, I really didn't see anything "slutty"or waaay out there. Some women with more curve showed more skin than others, but that just means they want to show off their good body. Kind of like guys with a good build wearing tank tops or go around shirtless.
I don't know maybe I've been on the internet for too long, seen too many costume at gaming events/conventions, or just surfed too much porn. But I really didn't see anything even remotely close to being inappropriate in those pics. Anybody remember Firiona Vie from good 'ol EQ days back in the early 2000's? That showed more skin than most of the costumes I've seen here.
I just don't see what the big hairy deal is. People there seemed to be having a good time.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
@ thread starter
I can not help but laugh at this whole post and most of the thread...Are you trying to score points with females because you can't score points in the real world or are you actually trying to say "please don't look a X because they are wearing costumes" or "Don't look at anyone who is naked in society" I means seriously...if you watch TV at home, you are doing it in PRIVATE PROPERTY. Public relates to being outside and available... Nice Job putting the blame on anyone who "looks" and not putting the blame on the actual people who DO GO OUT SEEKING ATTENTION wearing nearly nothing.
Conclusion:
"Let's blame and punish the victim and reward or do nothing to the cause"
very well put, *thumbs up*
The OP likes dudes... by his own admission. I doubt this has anything to do with him tryin to "get with the females".
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
I'm offended by the fact they weren't naked
member of imminst.org
Consider yourself in the vast vast minority.
Sex sales, get over it.
I definitely don't mind looking at scantily clad women but I can see where the OP is coming from. A lot of women in America seem to be wearing less and less these days. If I was sensitive to women showing off their goods then I would be pretty outraged with how the public portrays women and how a lot of women decide to portray themselves.
The subject of blaming raped women because they dressed ...slutty is interesting. Women for the most part are the ones being pursued for relationships or other desires:
Lets go to the Running of the Bulls in Spain. Lets say that the bull is "raping mc rapist" and the people running from it are all women. The bull might rape anyone in its crosshairs but it will most likely pay more attention to a woman in the crowd that's wearing a red mini skirt with matching stilettos.
There's no excuse for a woman to be raped but how they dress might encourage unwanted attention. Don't chose to be ignorant to the dangers around you. This is why most people lock their doors in their home and keep a close eye on their children because there are boogiemen out there.
This topic is pathetic.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Sex sells unfortunately.
Blizzard could have put a couple of guys into the picture to show they are more opportunist than sexist though.
By men reasoning just like you... You sicken me.
I think we have a self-righteous serial rapist/killer in the making.
I CREATED MYSELF!
"<Claus|Dev> i r pk"
SW:TOR|War40K:DMO|GW2
Bravo, Elikal! Wonderful to have a man eloquently put forward the arguments which I usually do myself. Thanks ^^
I sometimes wonder if these posts are serious, but have to sadly conclude that they are. My goodness, where to start ... Perhaps you could ask some questions of yourself such as why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't? Where might women have got ideas that their bodies are to be sexualised as often and as publicly as they are?
Are you aware of history at all? Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures? Have you heard of patriarchy? Social conditioning?
Finally, to my mind the woman in the burkha and the women scantily dressed are two sides of the same coin: both are responding to male ideas of how women should behave. It is sad to me to see thongs for sale in supermarkets in the UK aimed at girls as young as 9 (a mother of a daughter told me this). Sexualisation of women in all contexts is now being broadened to include younger and younger girls, and, thank goodness, there are people who are beginning to question this and to point out that for a girl/woman to feel obliged to portray herself as sexual (in a narrowly, male-defined way) most of the time is not freedom, nor choice, it is constraining, reductionist and demeaning.
For someone who claims to know all about cultural norms, patriarchy and social conditioning, you are certainly rather narrow-minded. You are reasoning from whatever norms and values you yourself hold. Whether you want to forbid or exclude women from making the choice to dress scantily or not, you apparently go wrong either way with feminists.
Yes, there is social conditioning and cultural norms dictating that it is okay or even, to some extent, encouraged for women to dress scantily. But you could argue this is the same for every trend, behaviour or extended phenotype for every person or social group. What makes sexualisation any different? They're okay with it. You feel they are degrading themselves. Would you dance in your underwear for $250 an hour? What about $2000? Obviously they themselves do not think it is degrading - their dignity has a price, and they are willing to sell it. Some of them have fun doing so. There are male models too - why the double standard? Why is everything women do somehow the fault of men?
It is not like women do not put sexual selection pressures on men, too. Many do everything to be rich, buff, handsome and succesful - that is the sexual selection pressures put on them by women, much like how beauty is a selection criterium for men. It has worked like that for thousands of years - this is no 'decline of civilisation'. I'm have a degree in psychology and I am a bioarchaeology student, I'm not new to either sides of this coin. In fact, you could see all of this of an extension of what happens in nature among pretty much any other vertebrata.
Stop blaming everything on 'the patriarchy' and 'men'.
It was explained on the first page that dressing up and getting their picture taken is entirely their choice. If they want to do it, let them.
I don't see why this thread is still open.
He is upset because he does not get boy candy.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
XD
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I've been wanting to say this for a while now, just never got around to it. Couldn't find the right words to say without sounding like a complete and utter asshole.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Bleh he was asking for it with his BS thread.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I doubt I could write a more condescending or delusional post if I tried. But I might as well find out, right?
First of all, it might be a good idea to actually answer some of your own questions and put a lot of thought into them. Lets review the first half of your post (which consists of questions, not answers).
Why would women feel the need to "choose" to dress up in sexually revealing costumes when the men don't?
That's just it. The women do not "need" to dress up provocatively. They choose to using their own free will. To say otherwise would be an argument against personal freedom (which is fine, but I doubt that you would even understand where to go once you got there). The question you ask implies the following: "I am a victim and have been forced to choose to dress provocatively by men."
And to this I say, "Shame on you for believing that women are so weak they do not have the power to decide things for themselves." By playing the victim, you have already lost the battle that you are apparently attempting to fight. You look at women that are dressed provocatively and you think of them as weaker than those that dress conservatively. To you, the women that dress provocatively have been victims of societal norms. They have been victims of a patriarchal society. They are victims of social conditioning.
Somehow, you have managed to come to this conclusion without ever questioning whether your belief system has fallen victim to social conditioning. You have never questioned whether your point of view is a victim of patriarchal society. You do not wonder if you are the one that has fallen victim to social norms.
The truth is that you are the victim. The woman that chooses what she does and what she wants to do is more free of social norms than you could ever be. The real victim of patriarchal society is the woman that feels like she must cover herself or be labeled a whore. The real victim of social conditioning is the woman that believes with all her heart that beautiful women in magazines are slaves to some imaginary demon that goes by the name of "man".
Are you aware of history at all?
Yes, I am vaguely aware of history. A history where nudity was shameful. A history where women were not allowed to vote. A history of women being treated like property. A history where the mere hint of a nipple was disgraceful and unnerving.
We are in a historical time right now. Women are achieving more than they ever have. Women are in places of power. Women are choosing to do things they have never been given a choice to do before. We are in the most enlightened time in the history of the world and women are becoming the societal equals to man. This is something relatively new and amazing.
Yet, there are some people, like you, that would choose to hold onto conservative ideals about women. Some people believe that women should be covered up and not have a choice. Some people believe that it is the males fault that women are choosing to be sexy. Indeed, it is the opposite in almost every single case. Men, historically, have tried to keep their women covered up. They have tried to keep their women out of the public eye against their will. Just like you are proposing we do.
Do you know that cultural norms shift over time and between cultures?
I have no clue what you are trying to say here. Perhaps you are trying to say that... actually, I really don't know where you were going with this.
Yes, I knew that.
Have you heard of patriarchy?
Yes. And I feel that you are heavily influenced by it's standards that were set a long time ago. While our society is still highly patriarchal, it is less patriarchal than it has ever been in the history of the world. And it is getting less patriarchal every day.
[Have you heard of] Social conditioning?
Yes.
I don't se anything sexist in bunch of girls dressing up like that - wanted to be seen dressed like that. It's their choice, nobody forced them.
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