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Perturbed about Guild Wars 2
nomss
Member UncommonPosts: 1,468
I think GW2 will have too much focus on solo that there won't be MMO. I know they have said they are brining MMO back, but when doing missions in DCUO other players can be there and it doesn't really effect your mission, but neither does this feel MMO.
Let me try to say it clearly: I think GW2 will lack on MMO aspect.
I'm playing DCUO beta. During missions other players can be doing the same mission as yourself, this doesn't effect you, but this doesn't feel MMO either.
This is how the Dynamic events are set up. Other players can be there doing dynamic events with you, but I don't think it'll feel MMOish.
I have the same feeling about their dungeons as well. For example, take FFXI: the exping party was very role specific, healer needed tank and tank needed healer, black mages needed damage dealers and damage dealers needed black mage. This created the feeling of being needed. In order for the group to even get through one mob, they all had to work together. Even in raids, SKY, Dynamis and given any battle.
But I can't quite pin point how GW2 will bring this kind of feeling. The feeling of you need others and others need you.
"There's no healing class." Awsome, now we won't have to wait for the healer to show up. Yea this sounds good, but how will the MMO be implemented in this case? How will each player feel that he needs other 4 (We know there are 5-men dungeons) people in order to finish the dungeon? Where is the group work? How do you feel MMO in this situation when you're still "the man for yourself"?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Comments
I think many games are moving away from 'forcing' you to group. While you may feel this takes away from the community feeling of a game...only a few years ago we were all complaining about hours wasted standing outside an instance waiting/calling/pleading for a healer/tank/other
If you feel alone, why not start a group.
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
unfortunately what you speak of is a relic of great mmo past
mmo's are just microcosmic miniature realities of our own - been in line at a bank and everyone is on their cell phone, ever been talking to someone who keeps text messaging,?
yea its massive but its massive isolation, spoon fed quest hubs with the illusion of dynamism - it wont be there.
It will take some more years before we come back around and start seeing great mmo's again - i am not holding my breath for either rift or gw2
dont worry. with eric flannum in charge, this game will be HEAVY on the multiplayer aspect as well as fun for the single player.
eric's a fantastic designer. this game is in fantastic hands.
Games i'm playing right now...
"In short, I thought NGE was a very bad idea" - Raph Koster talking about NGE on his blog at raphkoster.com
You're getting similar feeling too then huh? About how they're claiming to brining back MMO but it's not.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
They just aren't forcing you to group. You can solo but yet still be part of the group. I know, it sounds weird but it will work. You can also have people group with you in your personal story.
From what I know so far the dynamic quests work in such a way that even if you arn't grouped many players will be working together without any formal arrangement. There will be plenty of solo content and then hardcore events and situations, just like guild wars 1. I suppose what it really comes down to is how the rewards are scaled for the more difficult stuff and whether its worth it. Arenanet will sort it out.
Eh, I think that what they really said in interviews was that they intended to bring the 'RPG' back into 'MMORPG'.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I see this complaint a lot, and while I understand it somewhat. I can't help but ask, if so many seem to want to group and socialize, why does it not happen in game (regularly)? Must you be forced to group in order to start groups? Grouping is possible in any MMO, yet most hardly utilize the ability to do so.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comparing DCUO to Guild Wars 2, for what we've seen and know about each game (DCUO having a lot more to go off of at this point with their beta in full swing), isn't likely to get you very far. The main reason being that DCUO is very obviously trying to cut as many mmo corners as humanly possible to build a console mmo. There are definite good points to the game, but DCUO is going to be what it is because they designed it that way intentionally. It's -almost- a glorified single player game with the option to run a few missions with your friends over a console network every now and then. It is by no means a traditional mmo and lacks a ton of weight in terms of social play, as you pointed out in your post.
What we've -heard- and seen to a small degree from ArenaNet regarding Guild Wars 2 really does seem to be more along the lines of the traditional mmo, only evolved on some levels. The developers are looking at the aspects of what makes up a traditional mmo and seem to really be trying to figure out what it will take to move the genre forward. To hear them talk about what they have planned, it really does sound like they may be onto something with many of their proposed gameplay mechanics. Sure, the game may end up being nothing but the next steaming pile of donkey refuse splattered all over our hard drives, but if they can pull through with everything they've been talking about Guild Wars 2 just may have a shot at pushing the genre forward. I'm sure everyone will agree that evolution in the genre is sorely needed, so if ArenaNet wants to champion the cause, I can only support them.
TL;DR
DCUO = Console based mini-mmo focused on getting players to use their consoles to pay for a monthly dose of superherodom
Guild Wars 2 = Traditional mmo focused on helping push the genre forward, geared towards people who have played mmos in the past who are looking for an experience beyond what has been offered so far
You're stretching too much stating that it's not going to feel like an MMO.
Do you play WoW? LotRO? DDO? PW? How often are you in a group in those games? How about never except for dungeon instances?
GW2 will be the first MMO that lets you get the benefits of grouping without actually grouping. No kill stealing, no loot ninja's, no resource competition, shared XP... it's all good. You just have to be in the vacinity of other players to get the grouping benefits. It's about as seemless as it gets.
And if you want to construct an actual group -- you can. It doesn't prevent you from grouping so why slap an "anti-group" label on it?
Smells like troll...
The change is that you will need actual PLAYERS not the CLASS they're playing, especially if GW2's combat turns out to be the way it's advertised and like what we've seen from those videos. Environmental awareness, healing as a part of greater concept of support, etc. Also, you forget that GW2 has Dynamic Events intentionally built the "jump in, jump put" way because there's no loot and or EXP competition between players in the world. Dungeons, on the other hand, are a traditional affair and demand that you actually have people who know what they're doing beyond mere knowledge of what archetype their profession falls under.
In short, DE are not the same as dungeons.
I think the dragon fight they show cased is a fine example of how they are thinking of having players work together without having to rely on the tank-healer-dps group dynamic. When fighting the dragon everyone is meleeing and ranging, then the dragon uses an AoE that traps melee in range in crystals. If the ranged to break the crystals and free the melee then they will be trapped until the CC wears off and the dragon start targeting ranged and I believe using those trapped in crystals to heal themselves. As well, there are cannon's around the dragon that players can use to cause a lot of damage to the dragon but the dragon will also release minions into the battlefield that will swarm the cannons unless those not on cannon's stop them.
Just because they are breaking some of the old roles doesn't mean suddenly there will not be a reason to group and work together. If anything tactics become more flexible and broader and interesting dynamtics of player co-op can become possible.
Exactly this. You can solo next to 5 other people in DCUO but yet it feels like a group. In the end you just can't force grouping. No one likes to be forced to do anything.I played Aion for quite a while and though in many aspects it is a traditional mmo, not one of those particular aspects(dungeons, group quests, etc) did I really enjoy. What I really enjoyed was the way that rifts would open up and suddenly there was a bunch of people rallying together to defend the land from the invaders. They didn't need to be in a group, or even organized to any extent. They just all ended up at the same spot, trying to accomplish the same task. I really, really, really hope that is what GW2 dynamic events will lead to, because that is what feels like an mmo to me.
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.
That's like saying the food on Mars sucks, we won't know until we get there so in the meantime let's just enjoy the ride and see what it's like once we're there.
There are plenty of threads around on this topic with mixed responses, but what it boils down to is that while almost all MMO's have the option to group the games don't actually support it. When a game becomes easy enough to solo then people will solo, simple fact. Just because they /can/ group doesn't mean they will simply because the option is given to them, people are generally solitary creatures unless given reason to work together.
As for Guild Wars 2, I'm really not expecting much. The whole thing sounds a lot like Warhammer's Public Quests and they just didn't work to bring people together. All you saw happening was people jumping into the same area, fighting until they got a reward or quest complete, then they were gone again. It's just soloing in a crowd, basically, not something I'm interested in.
This video might address some of your concerns, especially the Q&A section.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
I think that we need to separate dynamic events from dungeons when we're talking about this.
It's true, during a dynamic event, it's going to scale up in difficulty with more people. So other people really aren't "needed". However, I think there are two things that make it "MMO." The first is that the encounter does get more...flavor with more people. If your job is to kill harpies, adding more people adds more harpies, increasing the chaos. Second, in the case of a boss encounter, the boss will gain new abilities with more people. The more people around, the more things are going on, the more epic it feels. Second, there are at least 100 cross profession combos. We don't know a lot about them at this point, but being able to work together I think will really add a lot. You're gonna want that elementalist to put up a fire wall so you can shoot arrows through it for more damage. The more people around you, the more visual cues for you to change up what you're doing there will be, and the more involved you'll be.
Also, even though grouping isn't enforced, the game is still designed to promote it. You have events that chain into other events. So everybody there won't just up and leave, they'll follow to the next one. That and that anybody can rez anybody else. Cooperation and proximity lead to socialization. ((Edit: @UsualSuspect. The distinction between public quests and events is specifically mentioned in the video. They mention ad hoc groups of 5-10 players who just start following each other from event to event and start socializing, even if their original intent was just to solo. One of the biggest driving forces behind the game is that you should never be concerned about seeing another player. They can't KS you, ninja your loot, steal your node, start an escort quest before you. Other players should always be a good thing. Even in public quests, to my understanding, you were still competing for rewards. In GW2 everybody gets their own reward based on how much they participate))
When it comes to dungeons, they are still designed for 5 people working together. And even though people won't need you as a tank, or need you as a healer, they'll still need you. People who have proven themselves to be good will still be sought out by their guild for dungeon runs. It won't just be because they need a tank or a healer, but because they know that person is quick to rez them, or great at dodging when they have to, or they're a team player and select buffing skills.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
MMO.....
So lets look at what you are tying to say here. Sounds like you are saying people won't be needed to finish stuff, so there will be no point in grouping.
Now there are many conflicting ideas comming together in the first place to make an MMO
Solo aspects that never change
1. You are sitting alone at your computer for hours.
2. You are concentrating mainly on making your character survive and achieve goals set by you or the game.
Group aspects that never change
1. You are in text chat, or IRL chat over computer to friends or online acquaintances in order to trade, quest, or achieve goals set by you for your character or for the group or for both.
Both Solo and group have the same things in common. You are alone at your pc for hours on end typing on your pc or chating on a mic and speakers.
That being said let's look at the MMO grouping dynamic a bit closer. No matter how you slice the character rolls up, there will always be a need for other players in a group. This is mainly due to the game developers balancing the level of content so that no single player could win the encounter.
So if you have rolls such as healer, tank, dps, and crowd control, do you really need seperate people for each? The answer is given by the developers and players of the particular game. I am sure you can tweak a character build over the length of game to be much better at any of these rolls and therefor become a better and more usefull version of a roll. But what will you give up doing this? You give up a chance at getting into a group since they already have a person that fits that roll. So really the basis of a group should be not on what piece of the pie you can fill, but on the extra power in total you bring to the group.
So basically you are always playing games alone but it's better to play with a group and not have to stand around alone for hours in game as well since nobody needs your skill or you can't get a group together since the rolls needed are in other groups.
OP...hope my perspective helps you a bit.
So OP are you telling us there is not other posibilities than the usual tank/healer/dps trio to promote groupe play and socialisation into mmos?
If it was your question the awnser is yes they are, or have been other things, at least. Before the trio tank/heal/dps even existed, mmos had strong group play and socialisation. A mmo without a healer isn't something very special in fact, they are some mmo with same ideas, and yes people do group.
My best exemple is Uo, no tank, no healer nothing of the sort, it was the good old fantasy setting like mage, warrior, archer, you know the normal stuff that are in the usual book fantasy, wait, did i said book? And yes dungeons was hard to go solo, so if you had chance to find someone inside, you would generally party, or just kill each other. And many many things was built to create a strong comunity, the bad guys (pker erf suckers), the good guys (anti pk), the crafters guilds (yes that kind of thing existed and worked at that time, strange isn't it), and rper (jeezus you must really think i'm trolling now), factions, neighbours (what did i just typed here?)... so yes grouping was very popular, and people did worked together to kill mobs and go deap in those dungeons, and get each other material for their crafting... And the funny part is that they were not mad.
And no i'm not Trolling really.
I'm still not sure why these day's people feel MMORPG's are about grouping, there is so much more to MMORPG's that can or could be considered a social experiance. Grouping "can" be part of that, unfortunaly unless someone is guilded or in a clan the social group dynamic is pretty far away these day's.
Multiplayer games work the same way, you can either enter the game with a clan/guild or drop in solo and have fun with random players. It's about overcoming a challenge with other people either within your group of friends, clan, guild or with random strangers. But for me to make me feel like I am playing a MMORPG is more then just grouping, else I might aswell stick to multiplayer games only which is my personal feeling and doesn't have to reflect that of others.
The problem with your logic is this. You are saying that people coming together to do DEs while not joining each others parties won't feel like an MMO should because DCUO has you doing missions in the same areas as other people and the proximity doesn't make DCUO feel like an MMO.
Are DCUO's missions even what GW/GW2 would call a mission? I doubt it...probably just a longer quest...or just a normal quest...I don't know.
Are DCUO's players playing together? no...Are GW2's players playing together? yes.
and you seem to argue that the lack of a trinity will not foster feelings of group interdependance like MMOs should. I disagree, and I am sure most people with the facts set out for them would as well. If GW2 will require you to group in an area (either in loose grouping to do group DEs, or in a party to do dungeons) it will be because if you go in solo you will not be able to kill everything before they kill you. With the addition of more people, who can work together through teamwork, positioning, combining skills (players using skills that make change how other players skills work. example: elementalist sets down fire wall, ranger fire arrows through the wall to have them be fire arrows), resurrecting downed/dead allies, and other things, content becomes less "I am getting slaughtered" and more "we are slaughtering them".
The trinity sucks and isn't required for team work to happen...I mean I never stand in a field waiting for a tank to defend me in football (flag football in the park for example). I just find the nearest guy willing and they do it, even if other people are better.
OH, and to whomever it was who said that DEs are too much like PQs and because PQs didn't get people to group together, DEs won't...I think that you will find that, because DEs are essentially the only form of questing in GW2, and because they cover every single zone, and because the rewards are very fair (not a filthy random rolling system for all the participants), and because the content scales for numbers of people and can easily be done without the help of others if need be, people are willing to do DEs more than PQs and because they actually do them people actually do them together...also helpful is the ability to join DEs at anytime and the fact they chain and the fact they aren't on some broadcasted timer...MANY reasons for DEs to be better than PQs...
I used to TL;DR, but then I took a bullet point to the footnote.
GW2 does more to encourage teamwork and socializing than most MMO's.
- Other players will never steal your kills, diminish your loot or xp gains or otherwise grief you. In fact playing with others will likely be the most efficient way to play.
- Content scales based on the number of players.
- Sidekicking and mentoring systems in place to be able to play with whoever you want to and still be challenged/rewarded.
- No faction segregation of the player base.
- No open PvP in the main world (there will be open PvP in the Mists which is a PvP world)
- Cross class skills
- Mini games like bar fights and carnival type mini games
- Choose your group based on player skill or other factors (because you enjoy playing with the player) rather than because they are of the class you need.
This is just what I can think of off the top of my head that we know of so far in the game. What the OP described of as MMO gameplay (forced grouping) is really just a barrier for accessibility and in terms of being able to play with who you want it can certainly be a barrier for fun as well. Good riddance.
OP, think you have it the wrong way around?
Dynamic Events will scale. Instead of having too many players acting like a swarm of locusts over the content and taking it down, there will be MORE for people to do and because Dynamic Events are cyclical there will always be group content to do that changes and scales accordingly.
That's the plan. Plus all the social thngs above^ and no news yet on Guilds...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
What is OP?
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
Original Poster (forum slang) according to google (or over-powered!)
Also this quote: Guild Wars 2: Content Interview
MMORPG.com:
You talked a lot about camaraderie among players. Many MMOs have lost this on a wide level because of guild groups and smaller factions. How do you see players joining up on a large scale in Guild Wars 2?
Colin:
I think Dynamic Events is the thing that will do that. That is the glue in the bond that brings the players together. I think that will give you recognition when you start to build that sense of community. The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server. We think we will have those bonds because your server is matched up against two other servers. So it is just that much more important that you become friends and you bond with the players on your server. So the friends you make through PvE and Dynamic Events, those friends will carry over into World vs. World PvP. You may get out of World vs. World PvP and go back to early zones to do events with new people and help encourage them to join you in the fight for your server to take part in battles and beat the other two. We expect large strong communities on each server and I think PvP will end up affecting PvE because people will work together.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem