Well I can honestly tell you nowadays there are so many people playing which of course you don't want in your game. I do blame the philosophy "every game for everyone" this doesn't work. Why did "oldschool" MMORPGS have such a great community? Simple we had different games for different people:
highly RP atmosphere freedom lovers - Ultima Online PvP maniacs - Dark Age of Camelot PvE fans - Everquest 1 + Lineage, Anarchy Online
add to that some sort of danger, adventure and the needing of others players voil
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I as well sometimes lament at the state of communities in the game, but that is where the money is going. There are still social MMOs out there, but they're very clique-ish.
ATITD is an example of a social game, where community involvement is almost required. Most if not all trade is through the barter system, where a person's valuation and skill at achieving the desired object (using mini-games) determines whether the deal is good to you or not. Unfortunately, there's no real action in the game, so it doesn't work for me.
Eve Online is my favorite game, where community involvement still plays a major role. Alliances are built upon trust (as the Causality trailer states), and that trust is the commodity that is most valuable and easiest to lose. I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's problems, but it wins the best community award time and time again for a reason.
I wish there was more games like those I listed out there, but unfortunately they're few and far between. We just gotta make do with what we got.
"The civilized man is rude, as he knows there are laws that protect him from recompense; The savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end." - Robert E. Howard
Originally posted by inBOILold times were a bit different since MMORPG´s players were all professionals,but its history.
No, most players there weren't professionals or at least not more than now. Yet simply ppl then cared about something. I remember even WoW vanilla times that aren't actually so good example as I still remember myself jumping into it and asking myself wtf is wrong with them? But still that community then was alot better than these days.
People are too lazy, they are given everything for free? I guess it's true now... to some point. The real truth is that ppl now care more about themselves than others. All that everyone cares now in different mmos is to get gear, be pseudo pro player but in fact to be simply another nerd in.
I agree that there are still people around that most communities years ago but with actually each year passing and new mmo released they are harder to find really. It's sad as it's not really supposed to be like that.
Dont forget new school players dont have the level of social skills that their older counterparts had. Can you imagine 20 years ago if you said the things to your fellow man that kids get away with saying to other people on the internet?
Frankly I feel bad for the younger generation, they may think theyre the shit, but theyll hit the fan soon enough.
Anyone ever think the reason why communities are de-evolving is because of E-sport game mechanics.. However, todays games are being designed that play characters against each other..
This too. Even when the game isn't even out there are already "hardcore" -> lol, "guilds" being formed with the sole goal to zerg through the game.
yet the vast majority here want forced grouping...
Put two and two together.
Complaining about the lack of communities, and i'll go so far as to say the lack of forced grouping is causing it. Solo-centric games bring players that have no value or desire for a decent community. Then the rest of us have to choose from the least poor of these because there are no other choices out there.
yet the vast majority here want forced grouping...
Put two and two together.
Complaining about the lack of communities, and i'll go so far as to say the lack of forced grouping is causing it. Solo-centric games bring players that have no value or desire for a decent community. Then the rest of us have to choose from the least poor of these because there are no other choices out there.
Agreed, if we didnt depend on other people in life as we dont in MMOs can you imagine how horrible society would be? Its the consequences of becoming a social pariah because you are an unpleasant person to be around that arent in place.
Yes, but forcing people to group with people they don't like, is still not going to make them like them.
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
This is so very true. People are inherently dicks - yes, you too - it's only consequences for actions that keeps society together. Lets step away from the games for a moment and look at modern society:
In the UK there is a certain yob culture, where kids are causing trouble on housing estates night after night, stealing from shops, stealing cars, starting fires, fighting strangers and so on. Why? Because they know they can get away with it. The laws as they are don't allow these kids to be given anything worse than a smack on the wrist and a letter to mommy.
Let's apply that to adults. You're sitting at home, you've lost your job, your kids are starving and there's a bank across the road with a ton of cash sitting in it. If there were no consequences would you cross that road and try stealing the cash from that bank? The worst that happens is you get into a fight with the bank manager and possible security guard, but win or lose, there are no consequences so you're not getting arrested, shot or thrown in jail for the next fifty years.
Now apply that to the world as a whole. How civil do you think people would be?
And that's the problems with in-game communities. Everyone plays for themselves with no worries about the outcome of their actions, be it stealing from a guild bank, ninja looting some raid gear or whatever. Most games are almost all soloable, so these people know they can continue as they want because there are no consequences. But if you build a world where you can't advance due to acting that way because nobody will group with you, you'll find people will be very different. It's like robbing that bank and being locked away for fifty years - you can't do anything because you acted like a dick to try and get ahead.
For a community to grow it needs to be able to police itself, but at the moment games give us nothing but solo anarchists and expect people to be happy together.
Yes, but forcing people to group with people they don't like, is still not going to make them like them.
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
A very idealistic view.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually people are not inherintly bad, people without consiquences are. Trust me on this. Walk into a roudy bar and pop off smart to some big guy in a biker jacket and tatts and more than likely your going to get hit. Get hit enough and you stop doing this. Once upon a way back when this was normal, then came law suits and all manner of things that protected the arrogent self important people of the world. When you remove societies ability to punch someone for getting out of line then you remove the thing that keeps people in line.
Or to paraphrase Robert E. Howard. The civilized man is intollerably rude, for he knows their are laws that protect him from recompence, where the savage is not for his actions can be answered in ways both swift and bloody. Or as me and my ex room mate once told a drunk frat boy, who we caught peeing on our door. If this was five hundred years ago, you would be laying in a pool of your own blood, dieing slowly, and in much pain.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
Absolutely, I couldnt agree more with this statement
Originally posted by inBOILold times were a bit different since MMORPG´s players were all professionals,but its history.
No, most players there weren't professionals or at least not more than now. Yet simply ppl then cared about something. I remember even WoW vanilla times that aren't actually so good example as I still remember myself jumping into it and asking myself wtf is wrong with them? But still that community then was alot better than these days.
People are too lazy, they are given everything for free? I guess it's true now... to some point. The real truth is that ppl now care more about themselves than others. All that everyone cares now in different mmos is to get gear, be pseudo pro player but in fact to be simply another nerd in.
I agree that there are still people around that most communities years ago but with actually each year passing and new mmo released they are harder to find really. It's sad as it's not really supposed to be like that.
Dont forget new school players dont have the level of social skills that their older counterparts had. Can you imagine 20 years ago if you said the things to your fellow man that kids get away with saying to other people on the internet?
Frankly I feel bad for the younger generation, they may think theyre the shit, but theyll hit the fan soon enough.
So true really. But then I also think that this is not the only reason why things are now as they are. I mean I am myself not so old actually, still below 30. And the way I see it is that new mmo generation (regardles their real age unfortunately) also played a big part in it. I know myself ppl even oleder than 50 or 60 that play mmo games and behave worse than many kids do. So what I believe is that the problem is that generally societies are evolving and in many cases they are evolving in a bad way.
Ofc I don't say that kids have nothing to do with this. When I see these days someone like 10 years or so younger than me it's often that I think what is wrong with that generation. But then I also don't feel that many adults remain the same way as they were those 10 or 20 years ago. So what I would call it is rather new mmo generation regardless their age in fact. At least in many cases it is.
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
While that is true the reason behind it is that a MMO today cost a lot of more money to make than before. EQ cost 8 million bucks to make (until launch that is). Modern MMOs cost at least 60M but in many cases a lot more.
So the investors want sure bucks. Funny enough is they probably losing out on a lot of cash because it is the games made and for gamers that sometimes becomes huge. Wow were originally started by a few EQ players who worked for Blizzard, So was GW (in fact by some of the same people).
Some companies still are made up by gamers. ANET have 2 hours playing every day included in their work. The dude who made torchlight are gamers as well and make what they think is fun. Undead labs are gamers as well, and there are a few others.
But to make a MMO as a you think it should be you really need to be not only good but also have some successes behind you. Few investors give loads of money to unknown talents (well, CME got a lot but in that case a bit of caution wouldn't have hurt).
In the 80s and early 90s games were often made by a single guy or a small team. The first MMOs had teams around 50 people. Today a AAA game takes several hundred people. ANETS art department is larger than the entire SWG dev team.
The modern graphics do have some downsides. That is the same reasons most games are a lot smaller today.
yet the vast majority here want forced grouping...
Put two and two together.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
Vague statement...
ONLY forced in that you at least TRY or are forced to TRY and find some people you can get along with.
to sum it up easily,if somebody wants nothing to do with anyone esle in the game and does not even try to get along,and everyone thinks the same way,there is no chance at community,it would be mathematically impossible.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yes, but forcing people to group with people they don't like, is still not going to make them like them.
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
A very idealistic view.
Not at all, these are proven concepts that have shown themselves to build better communities in many older games.
If you weren't part of early MMO's such as DAOC, SWG, or EQ you can't relate to what we're saying. (And you were part of them and didn't see this, you weren't paying attention.)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
A very idealistic view.
Not at all, these are proven concepts that have shown themselves to build better communities in many older games.
If you weren't part of early MMO's such as DAOC, SWG, or EQ you can't relate to what we're saying. (And you were part of them and didn't see this, you weren't paying attention.)
Yes they do help at least.
But the games also needs to stop rewarding morons who ninja loot, kill steal and suddenly drop out of the dungeon in the middle because he got the loot he wanted and don't give a damn about the rest.
Games needs to actually reward people for being gentlemen/ladies not for being jerks. I don't think the game needs to punish jerks however since a carrot is better than the whip.
If you reward people who helps their fellow players the communities would become better.
Of course intense use of instances doesn't help either since you wont meet any new people if you just run instances all the time. Instances is a great tool but if you overuse it they are bad for the community.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
Absolutely, I couldnt agree more with this statement
It seems a constant on forums like these that if a developer builds what they niche audience wants, he's doing it for the art, but if he's building what the majority of players want, he's doing it solely to 'rake in the cash'. Is it possible that both develop what they think would be fun for their target audeince for the art and for the cash?
I ask because I recently saw the ugly side of this behavior on another MMO forum. A person who had been a liked member of the community was working on an MMO and was respected by many as a fellow indie dev. The minute he got funding for his project several of the posters turned on him, becoming very negative and even hostile toward him because he 'sold out'.
This assertion that gamers used to make video games and that now it's a bunch of corporate fat cats enslaving and opporessing otherwise creative coders so that they can pump out whatever the latest metrics show 'the kids are all playing these days' is not only getting old but it is completely unfounded, especially if you dare try to inject logic into the equation.
Both EvilCorpCo and the saintly art-loving indie have the same goal - they want you to love all over their game. Some say that isn't the case and the EvilCorpCo just wants you to buy the game - they don't care if you like it or not. Well, that only works if one other condition is met - the target audience is made up of the stupidest and weakest-willed people on the planet. It would have to be, because if a company does a good job of selling a game, but the game doesn't meet players' wants and expectations. They are less likely to buy the next game and definitely won't buy the third one...
... unless they are dumb as a box of rocks.
IMO, the consumers arent dumb as a box of rocks. The game developers, both the villified EvilCorpCo and the held-on-high indie, want to make games that you'll find fun so that you buy them, enjoy them and look forward to the next game. To think the norm is any different simply flies in the face of logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It seems a constant on forums like these that if a developer builds what they niche audience wants, he's doing it for the art, but if he's building what the majority of players want, he's doing it solely to 'rake in the cash'. Is it possible that both develop what they think would be fun for their target audeince for the art and for the cash?
I ask because I recently saw the ugly side of this behavior on another MMO forum. A person who had been a liked member of the community was working on an MMO and was respected by many as a fellow indie dev. The minute he got funding for his project several of the posters turned on him, becoming very negative and even hostile toward him because he 'sold out'.
This assertion that gamers used to make video games and that now it's a bunch of corporate fat cats enslaving and opporessing otherwise creative coders so that they can pump out whatever the latest metrics show 'the kids are all playing these days' is not only getting old but it is completely unfounded, especially if you dare try to inject logic into the equation.
Both EvilCorpCo and the saintly art-loving indie have the same goal - they want you to love all over their game. Some say that isn't the case and the EvilCorpCo just wants you to buy the game - they don't care if you like it or not. Well, that only works if one other condition is met - the target audience is made up of the stupidest and weakest-willed people on the planet. It would have to be, because if a company does a good job of selling a game, but the game doesn't meet players' wants and expectations. They are less likely to buy the next game and definitely won't buy the third one...
... unless they are dumb as a box of rocks.
IMO, the consumers arent dumb as a box of rocks. The game developers, both the villified EvilCorpCo and the held-on-high indie, want to make games that you'll find fun so that you buy them, enjoy them and look forward to the next game. To think the norm is any different simply flies in the face of logic.
That is just jealousy of course. Some well funded game are made for and by gamers and many small games are made just too cash in for.
But when you need something like 80 million dollars (budget of AoC and WAR) the people putting out the money want something to say as well. And they want to invest in something they believe will work. That is fine if your name is Strain, Kaplan or Muzyka but most devs are not people who get free hands.
After Brittney started selling records a load of record companies signed young blond girls that sounded about the same in hope to cash in on it. Same goes for MMOs but the problem is that they take 5 years to make.
Anyways, my point: Most devs don't get free hands. If the ones that do get free hands still makes something very similar to Wow it is not my problem. Games made by and for gamers are most fun. Same as music made as an artist sounds usually better than music made to sell.
Yes, but forcing people to group with people they don't like, is still not going to make them like them.
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
A very idealistic view.
Not at all, these are proven concepts that have shown themselves to build better communities in many older games.
If you weren't part of early MMO's such as DAOC, SWG, or EQ you can't relate to what we're saying. (And you were part of them and didn't see this, you weren't paying attention.)
I never said it didn't work back then, Kyl. Baby Boomers and GenX were accustomed to games being cooperative or multiplayer experiences, and the PnP gamer was also used to a game being played with friends. "Solo" gaming was pretty much playing solitaire, bouncing a ball off the wall or laying out your character sheets on thetable and imagining what your characters would be doing right now.
Those players are greatly outnumberd by the Millenials, who grew up in a completely different world of technology, gaming and socialization. They are used to firing a message into the ehter and not expecting a reply or acknowledfgement. They are used to interaction in very abbreviated short-term bursts. They probably never experienced a block party saw the neighborhood parents get together for card game night. The socialize and interact on a completely different level.
What we consider 'normal' was normal for our generation. Here's an example:
When an older gamer (Boomer or GenX) gets a drive-by guild or group invite, they often will take issue with it - almost as if it is intrusive or bothersome to some degree to have this window suddenly pop up. Had the invitor sent a tell first to introduce themselves or even simply to ask if they wanted an invite, the invitation window would have been better received.
The new generation of gamers just accepts it or closes it. This form of communication is a normal part of their lives through IMs, Twitter, Facebook, etc. If you tried to explain to them that you wish they would ask or introduce themselves first, they'd think you were crazy - the invite has who it's from and what you're being invited to right there on it. The preceeding step would seem ridiculous to them.
It's a different generation and a different world. To contend that another generation's socialization norms and practices could be - or even should be - drilled into the current generation of gamers seems counterproductive and, to a large degree, a rather arrogant stance for a developer to take.
To maximize socialization and interaction in a virtual world, the developer's task is to identify how his target audience already does these things and build the tools or game mechanics to facilitate and encourage that. Grouping was an effective tool for the early gamers because that was what they were already looking for, not because forcing people together suddenly makes them friends. If that silliness had any basis in reality then Reality TV wouldn't exist, let alone dominate TV like it has.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
Absolutely, I couldnt agree more with this statement
Very true, yes. And when I say "as a developer" I'm happy to say I fall under the "older developer" category as New Worlds Ateraan was created as a game that I would enjoy playing and the community is that of a group of tabletop d&d friends out kicking ass and taking names and enjoying serious roleplay.
I don't know, you'd have to be there to understand this concept I think, but if you've ever played tabletop d&d in a large group you know what I'm talking about.
Comments
Well I can honestly tell you nowadays there are so many people playing which of course you don't want in your game. I do blame the philosophy "every game for everyone" this doesn't work. Why did "oldschool" MMORPGS have such a great community? Simple we had different games for different people:
highly RP atmosphere freedom lovers - Ultima Online
PvP maniacs - Dark Age of Camelot
PvE fans - Everquest 1
+ Lineage, Anarchy Online
add to that some sort of danger, adventure and the needing of others players voil
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I as well sometimes lament at the state of communities in the game, but that is where the money is going. There are still social MMOs out there, but they're very clique-ish.
ATITD is an example of a social game, where community involvement is almost required. Most if not all trade is through the barter system, where a person's valuation and skill at achieving the desired object (using mini-games) determines whether the deal is good to you or not. Unfortunately, there's no real action in the game, so it doesn't work for me.
Eve Online is my favorite game, where community involvement still plays a major role. Alliances are built upon trust (as the Causality trailer states), and that trust is the commodity that is most valuable and easiest to lose. I'm not saying that it doesn't have it's problems, but it wins the best community award time and time again for a reason.
I wish there was more games like those I listed out there, but unfortunately they're few and far between. We just gotta make do with what we got.
"The civilized man is rude, as he knows there are laws that protect him from recompense; The savage is not, for his actions can meet a bloody end."
- Robert E. Howard
Dont forget new school players dont have the level of social skills that their older counterparts had. Can you imagine 20 years ago if you said the things to your fellow man that kids get away with saying to other people on the internet?
Frankly I feel bad for the younger generation, they may think theyre the shit, but theyll hit the fan soon enough.
Collector's editions are scams.
So...people are complaining about communities...
yet the vast majority here want forced grouping...
Put two and two together.
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My game channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/vendayn
This too. Even when the game isn't even out there are already "hardcore" -> lol, "guilds" being formed with the sole goal to zerg through the game.Get out of my RPG!
Collector's editions are scams.
Complaining about the lack of communities, and i'll go so far as to say the lack of forced grouping is causing it. Solo-centric games bring players that have no value or desire for a decent community. Then the rest of us have to choose from the least poor of these because there are no other choices out there.
Agreed, if we didnt depend on other people in life as we dont in MMOs can you imagine how horrible society would be? Its the consequences of becoming a social pariah because you are an unpleasant person to be around that arent in place.
Yes, but forcing people to group with people they don't like, is still not going to make them like them.
Check out my nature/animal/relaxing music channel on Youtube!
My game channel on Youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/vendayn
1. Can be difficult to know whether you dislike someone (so long as that player isn't a blatant ass) without ever trying.
2. Not all games are for all players, those that don't play nice with others have very difficult times progressing and leave (better for the rest of us).
3. Practice makes perfect- time spent being social aids in the ability to socialize in a given community. Again, when game mechanics make it more productive to be civil to your fellow gamer it helps even those that are new to the concept (but willing to try) able to adjust themselves.
This is so very true. People are inherently dicks - yes, you too - it's only consequences for actions that keeps society together. Lets step away from the games for a moment and look at modern society:
In the UK there is a certain yob culture, where kids are causing trouble on housing estates night after night, stealing from shops, stealing cars, starting fires, fighting strangers and so on. Why? Because they know they can get away with it. The laws as they are don't allow these kids to be given anything worse than a smack on the wrist and a letter to mommy.
Let's apply that to adults. You're sitting at home, you've lost your job, your kids are starving and there's a bank across the road with a ton of cash sitting in it. If there were no consequences would you cross that road and try stealing the cash from that bank? The worst that happens is you get into a fight with the bank manager and possible security guard, but win or lose, there are no consequences so you're not getting arrested, shot or thrown in jail for the next fifty years.
Now apply that to the world as a whole. How civil do you think people would be?
And that's the problems with in-game communities. Everyone plays for themselves with no worries about the outcome of their actions, be it stealing from a guild bank, ninja looting some raid gear or whatever. Most games are almost all soloable, so these people know they can continue as they want because there are no consequences. But if you build a world where you can't advance due to acting that way because nobody will group with you, you'll find people will be very different. It's like robbing that bank and being locked away for fifty years - you can't do anything because you acted like a dick to try and get ahead.
For a community to grow it needs to be able to police itself, but at the moment games give us nothing but solo anarchists and expect people to be happy together.
A very idealistic view.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Actually people are not inherintly bad, people without consiquences are. Trust me on this. Walk into a roudy bar and pop off smart to some big guy in a biker jacket and tatts and more than likely your going to get hit. Get hit enough and you stop doing this. Once upon a way back when this was normal, then came law suits and all manner of things that protected the arrogent self important people of the world. When you remove societies ability to punch someone for getting out of line then you remove the thing that keeps people in line.
Or to paraphrase Robert E. Howard. The civilized man is intollerably rude, for he knows their are laws that protect him from recompence, where the savage is not for his actions can be answered in ways both swift and bloody. Or as me and my ex room mate once told a drunk frat boy, who we caught peeing on our door. If this was five hundred years ago, you would be laying in a pool of your own blood, dieing slowly, and in much pain.
This was the point I was trying to make earlier. As a developer we build what players want and frankly in MMOs they want grouping this way.
TORG - Text Only Roleplaying Game, the only way to go. http://www.ateraan.com
And this is the difference between current and older developers. In the past developers built what they wanted to play, what they thought would be fun, now developers build what they imagine players would want so that they can rake in the cash. This, in my belief, is what is sucking the soul (and community) out of modern games. Games used to be built by gamers, not people looking for a fast buck.
Absolutely, I couldnt agree more with this statement
So true really. But then I also think that this is not the only reason why things are now as they are. I mean I am myself not so old actually, still below 30. And the way I see it is that new mmo generation (regardles their real age unfortunately) also played a big part in it. I know myself ppl even oleder than 50 or 60 that play mmo games and behave worse than many kids do. So what I believe is that the problem is that generally societies are evolving and in many cases they are evolving in a bad way.
Ofc I don't say that kids have nothing to do with this. When I see these days someone like 10 years or so younger than me it's often that I think what is wrong with that generation. But then I also don't feel that many adults remain the same way as they were those 10 or 20 years ago. So what I would call it is rather new mmo generation regardless their age in fact. At least in many cases it is.
While that is true the reason behind it is that a MMO today cost a lot of more money to make than before. EQ cost 8 million bucks to make (until launch that is). Modern MMOs cost at least 60M but in many cases a lot more.
So the investors want sure bucks. Funny enough is they probably losing out on a lot of cash because it is the games made and for gamers that sometimes becomes huge. Wow were originally started by a few EQ players who worked for Blizzard, So was GW (in fact by some of the same people).
Some companies still are made up by gamers. ANET have 2 hours playing every day included in their work. The dude who made torchlight are gamers as well and make what they think is fun. Undead labs are gamers as well, and there are a few others.
But to make a MMO as a you think it should be you really need to be not only good but also have some successes behind you. Few investors give loads of money to unknown talents (well, CME got a lot but in that case a bit of caution wouldn't have hurt).
In the 80s and early 90s games were often made by a single guy or a small team. The first MMOs had teams around 50 people. Today a AAA game takes several hundred people. ANETS art department is larger than the entire SWG dev team.
The modern graphics do have some downsides. That is the same reasons most games are a lot smaller today.
Vague statement...
ONLY forced in that you at least TRY or are forced to TRY and find some people you can get along with.
to sum it up easily,if somebody wants nothing to do with anyone esle in the game and does not even try to get along,and everyone thinks the same way,there is no chance at community,it would be mathematically impossible.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not at all, these are proven concepts that have shown themselves to build better communities in many older games.
If you weren't part of early MMO's such as DAOC, SWG, or EQ you can't relate to what we're saying. (And you were part of them and didn't see this, you weren't paying attention.)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes they do help at least.
But the games also needs to stop rewarding morons who ninja loot, kill steal and suddenly drop out of the dungeon in the middle because he got the loot he wanted and don't give a damn about the rest.
Games needs to actually reward people for being gentlemen/ladies not for being jerks. I don't think the game needs to punish jerks however since a carrot is better than the whip.
If you reward people who helps their fellow players the communities would become better.
Of course intense use of instances doesn't help either since you wont meet any new people if you just run instances all the time. Instances is a great tool but if you overuse it they are bad for the community.
It seems a constant on forums like these that if a developer builds what they niche audience wants, he's doing it for the art, but if he's building what the majority of players want, he's doing it solely to 'rake in the cash'. Is it possible that both develop what they think would be fun for their target audeince for the art and for the cash?
I ask because I recently saw the ugly side of this behavior on another MMO forum. A person who had been a liked member of the community was working on an MMO and was respected by many as a fellow indie dev. The minute he got funding for his project several of the posters turned on him, becoming very negative and even hostile toward him because he 'sold out'.
This assertion that gamers used to make video games and that now it's a bunch of corporate fat cats enslaving and opporessing otherwise creative coders so that they can pump out whatever the latest metrics show 'the kids are all playing these days' is not only getting old but it is completely unfounded, especially if you dare try to inject logic into the equation.
Both EvilCorpCo and the saintly art-loving indie have the same goal - they want you to love all over their game. Some say that isn't the case and the EvilCorpCo just wants you to buy the game - they don't care if you like it or not. Well, that only works if one other condition is met - the target audience is made up of the stupidest and weakest-willed people on the planet. It would have to be, because if a company does a good job of selling a game, but the game doesn't meet players' wants and expectations. They are less likely to buy the next game and definitely won't buy the third one...
... unless they are dumb as a box of rocks.
IMO, the consumers arent dumb as a box of rocks. The game developers, both the villified EvilCorpCo and the held-on-high indie, want to make games that you'll find fun so that you buy them, enjoy them and look forward to the next game. To think the norm is any different simply flies in the face of logic.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
That is just jealousy of course. Some well funded game are made for and by gamers and many small games are made just too cash in for.
But when you need something like 80 million dollars (budget of AoC and WAR) the people putting out the money want something to say as well. And they want to invest in something they believe will work. That is fine if your name is Strain, Kaplan or Muzyka but most devs are not people who get free hands.
After Brittney started selling records a load of record companies signed young blond girls that sounded about the same in hope to cash in on it. Same goes for MMOs but the problem is that they take 5 years to make.
Anyways, my point: Most devs don't get free hands. If the ones that do get free hands still makes something very similar to Wow it is not my problem. Games made by and for gamers are most fun. Same as music made as an artist sounds usually better than music made to sell.
I never said it didn't work back then, Kyl. Baby Boomers and GenX were accustomed to games being cooperative or multiplayer experiences, and the PnP gamer was also used to a game being played with friends. "Solo" gaming was pretty much playing solitaire, bouncing a ball off the wall or laying out your character sheets on thetable and imagining what your characters would be doing right now.
Those players are greatly outnumberd by the Millenials, who grew up in a completely different world of technology, gaming and socialization. They are used to firing a message into the ehter and not expecting a reply or acknowledfgement. They are used to interaction in very abbreviated short-term bursts. They probably never experienced a block party saw the neighborhood parents get together for card game night. The socialize and interact on a completely different level.
What we consider 'normal' was normal for our generation. Here's an example:
When an older gamer (Boomer or GenX) gets a drive-by guild or group invite, they often will take issue with it - almost as if it is intrusive or bothersome to some degree to have this window suddenly pop up. Had the invitor sent a tell first to introduce themselves or even simply to ask if they wanted an invite, the invitation window would have been better received.
The new generation of gamers just accepts it or closes it. This form of communication is a normal part of their lives through IMs, Twitter, Facebook, etc. If you tried to explain to them that you wish they would ask or introduce themselves first, they'd think you were crazy - the invite has who it's from and what you're being invited to right there on it. The preceeding step would seem ridiculous to them.
It's a different generation and a different world. To contend that another generation's socialization norms and practices could be - or even should be - drilled into the current generation of gamers seems counterproductive and, to a large degree, a rather arrogant stance for a developer to take.
To maximize socialization and interaction in a virtual world, the developer's task is to identify how his target audience already does these things and build the tools or game mechanics to facilitate and encourage that. Grouping was an effective tool for the early gamers because that was what they were already looking for, not because forcing people together suddenly makes them friends. If that silliness had any basis in reality then Reality TV wouldn't exist, let alone dominate TV like it has.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Very true, yes. And when I say "as a developer" I'm happy to say I fall under the "older developer" category as New Worlds Ateraan was created as a game that I would enjoy playing and the community is that of a group of tabletop d&d friends out kicking ass and taking names and enjoying serious roleplay.
I don't know, you'd have to be there to understand this concept I think, but if you've ever played tabletop d&d in a large group you know what I'm talking about.
TORG - Text Only Roleplaying Game, the only way to go. http://www.ateraan.com