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Ground Mounts vs Flying Mounts
BigJohnny
Member Posts: 42
What do you guys think of those? Should an MMO have both? Should one be hands-down better than the other?
Ground mounts are your bread and butter transportation tool. Not to mention it could be fun just to ride from one place to another. The main disadvantage is that it could take a while to get there.
Flying mounts are much more utilitarian. You go up, aim in a direction, and get there the fastest. They're convenient. This could also include flight-paths and the likes. The main disadvantage though is that you're missing out on the "scenic route", and don't get to really travel the world.
Then you also have the various teleports, portals, summons etc that basically trivialize everything else. I'm not interested in discussing those, but just what is your preference for Ground vs Flying mounts? And more importantly, what could be done to make the two a balanced way to travel, so that it's really up to the individual player to decide which one they like? Or should they even be balanced? Should one type just be flat-out better than the other?
Comments
What I want (Not what everyone wants, greedy me).
I only want ground mounts, I like to see my character walking on it, I want the long travels and I want them to have detours (Be it due to circumstances or my curiosity) and go on weird crazy adventures between cities because of my lovable rebelious nature.
Flying mounts and instant magical portals are not my thing, I want to travel and have something fun happen on the way and experience awesome scenery.
Flying mounts completely and utter destroy the exploration aspect in a MMO. With them, there are no hidden paths to find, and they destroy the journey part of the game. Remember exploring the Trollshaws or Moria for the first time? Now imagine how less fun that would have been with flying mounts.
With flying mounts, you reduce the gameworld to nothing more than a set of destinations.
Tell me when proper mounted combat is possible in an MMORPG.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
I'm fine with flying mounts from waypoint to waypoint as fast travel, but I do not care for player flying mounts at all. When you don't have flying mounts, an enemy fortress is a challenge for you to work through in order to get to the objective at the end. When you have flying mounts, an enemy fortress is scenery for you to enjoy before you land on someone's head, kill them, and fly right back out.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I dont mind flying mounts
Heck in UO you could recall anywhere just so long as you had a marked rune to the location. I still managed to explore a lot (Checking out peoples houses and their vendors)
That didn't make the world seem small to me.
Most players don't care about having a sting to dying. In fact, most actively dislike painful penalties because they play the game as a game that they want to entertain them.
But I certainly agree that if the intent of a piece of content (such as the Haunted Forest) is to be a chunky obstacle to overcome, that allowing flying in that situation is a bad design.
Personally I'd be fine without flying mounts as long as I don't waste time traveling -- that's all I care about: avoiding wasted time.
I want to spend my time playing the game. Retracing the path through the Haunted Forest isn't me playing the game: it's the game playing me. The first 1-3 times through the forest are great, but honestly a waypoint system where I can instantly teleport to any place I've "Discovered" is the best system (Diablo 2 waypoints basically; WOW's flightpaths are similar, but still involve an awkward amount of travel time.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Flying mounts should never be a replacement for ground mounts.
Otherwise everyone will want the flying mount (er, why not they can be "cool") and they essentially help bypass the world.
There should be areas that are dangerous for flying mounts. There should be areas where it makes sense for ground mounts.
I mean, look at the youtube video where the fellowship gets on an eagle, flies to Mt. Doom and just throws the ring in.
I believe one of the characters says something like "wow, imagine if we had to walk".
There's areason Tolkien limited flight ; )
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I never understood the argument againts mounts and flying mounts, especially from people who love sandbox games. I get what people say about how travel should be an adventure but i dont see how players having any type of mount stop that. Just because mounts are in the game it in no way stops you personally from traveling on foot from one place to another . I never got the mindset to wanting more open gameplay but at the same time wanting restrictions on other gamers gameplay. What may be fun for you to repeat over and over is another persons grind.. annoying grind at that. Should there be extra rewards from foot travel yes there is . you do more fighting gain more experience, earn more equipment and supplies needed for jobs things someone would not get by bypassing an area.
So once you earn the right to fast travel i think you should get it weither its way points, warps, mounts etc so long as you did missions travel through areas , did outside missions to earn the mount then the more power to ya im all for it. And if you decide you want to just journey and travel on foot because thats how you enjoy the game thats good to. The more open ways to play the better. Also the more people that you will get to play a game. Forceing to slow travel is just as restricting as forcing to pvp ,pve have certin jobs etc. Forcing all others to play your way makes a very boring game.. especially for a mmo
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
It is not that only we want to do it, I (Me) want it to be a general rule which everyone has to follow. But then again no current game is currently designed to make traveling fun IMO.
The fast travel between already visited cities which are near each other isn't that bad, but traveling the entire world in one portal trip destroys the fabric of fun for me.
Grind is the last thing I want though ;p.
As long as flying mounts are introduced at a point where you have already had to cover the content on foot/ground mount, I have no arguement. Its fine to fly over the haunted forest if you've had to go through it.
Land mounts only. Maybe some that can glide? (ala flying squirrel?) As said by someone above, it ruins exploration....
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
When I was playing WoW I would sometimes just fly around and take in the views.. So I like flying mounts and land mounts.
My logic dictates that there has to be a way to balance the two, so that they are both fun and viable. And yet it seems that objectively speaking, a flying mount is always better than a ground-only mount.
Some games balance it a little bit by making the ground mount very fast compared to a grounded flying mount. Basically meaning that if you run on foot on a flying mount instead of flying it, it will be slow. But then again, everyone wants a flying mount because it's fast to fly with.
Maybe a system where there's a chance for you to lose your mount? Like it can be killed, or taken from you if you lose in PvP or something. That way people will think twice about using an expensive flying mount as their primary mode of transportation.
Removed the first line from your post because it's a completely baseless assumption presented as fact.
Not all players are looking for a hand-holding lobby game. There are many out there that still prefer an open world that has more depth than what you seek. You act like games with no downtime, complications, or time-consuming mechanics can possibly be as fulfilling as games that are streamlined with no downtime and completely accessible to the lowest common denominator of player.
I guarantee you that games that require more effort in fulfilling goals have more fulfilling goals. Not all players seek mindless whackamole gameplay.
To go back to the OP's post, I completely disagree with flying mounts- they are an abuse of the game world and completely negate the risk vs reward of travel and exploration. It inspires and rewards thoughtless, lazy players.
In most MMOs both kinda sucks. Some have some lame kind of mounted combat, AoC did a try for it.
But without lances for mounted warriors and pikes for foot soldiers fighting against them is the only point of mount to kill some transportation time and to make the world smaller.
Mounted combat should have it's own attacks. In fact I think those attacks should replace your usual ones. And mounts should also includes chariots and sledges. Some weapons can be used from mounts but will in that case give you different attacks than the usual you have, others isn't possible to use. And of course you get special attacks like charges and in some cases weird attacks like fire breathing.
Flying mounts can be incredible cool if you use them right, anyone who read the Dragonlance books know that.
While mounts were used by couriers to delivers messages fast in the old times they were usually used for fighting instead, leading to spacial weapons against them of course. That is the way they should be used in MMOs as well.
I am all for mounts in MMOs but they should be used right. If badly used they are just a waste of resources the devs could use for better things. If used good we can joust in tournaments and give PvP battles a new dimension.
Agreed.
But I think we could get great 3D battles if someone actually did a good job with flying mounts. Imagine dogfighting on griffins... There is actually a great potential that is not the least bit hand holding, in fact the air could be a lot more dangerous than the ground since you have nowhere to hide up there ('cept maybe in a cloud).
I am all for risk Vs reward and a few nasty dragons should cool down abuse of flying mounts. But flying mounts have been used in many fantasy books and with some added "red baron" tactics to them I think they could be used to make the game more fun instead of making it smaller and safer.
This is a good thread. I was considering of making one similar. Glad the OP did. I would have to agree with the majority of the previous replies that flying mounts do negate adventure and the risk and reward. One thing that I didn't see mention is the scale of the world. 50 square mile world vs a 200 mile square world. One would assume flying mounts would be more applicable in the larger world. However, flying mounts in a larger world can still make it seems small.
I always go back to EQ when I consider ground or flying mounts. I remember running to Rivervale for the first time when I was level 10 with a group of friends. We had to venture through the East Commonlands, then the West Commonlands, to Kithacor then to Rivervale. I remember the red conned lions in the West Commonlands that ran faster than us and would aggro easy. So our mage friend had to cast invisibility on us to make it passed the lions. When we made it to the zone line to Kithacor and zoned in; guess what. It was night time. The undead was awake. Level 40+ undead. We had to ride the wall to Rivervale. That was an adventure.
A flying mount would completely take away that experience of adventure and excitement. A ground mount would take a portion of that experience away. It would take away the suspense of imediate death from those undead mobs. A ground mount could still experience it but run past it fast enough no danger would be permitted.
In my opinion mounts do take away from danger, exploration, and adventure. However, there could be away to compramise mounts and sense of danger while adventuring. I think the only solution would be is have a stamina bar on the mounts. They can only travel so long or so fast. Once that stamina bar runs thin the mount will be "tired" and therefore you'd have to "walk" the mount. I think ground mounts should be obtained during mid levels and flying mounts at higher levels. However, realistically ground mounts seem more applicatable to have than a flying mount. I think flying mounts (if any) should be very challenging to obtian and rare. I think the main key is to have it where a player must strategize of where they want to have fast travel and when not too. Maybe mounts would be the best way to meet friends for an adventure. While on that adventure it's on foot the rest of the way. I don't know just spewing out some ideas off the top of my head. But I do concur, so far mounts do take away from one the core essential aspects of an mmorpg.
Good idea. Add that to my suggestion, Also let different mounts have different stamina. Add a strength factor that you matches with your character and all the stuff he/she carries.
The roman army proved that humans can walk a lot further than a mount. The mount is faster short distances but if you are, say marching from Rome to nothern France marching is actually faster unless you can change horse every few hours.
But as I said before: The main reason to have a mount is for fighting, not to be lazy.
Kind of like what Aion does (although their flight is even more limiting in a lot of areas).
I just wish they would start puting in features for mounts other than faster speed.
I never played AION, but I thought it was more about gliding there?
But yes, mounts needs to be handled better. Sadly is AoC the only MMO that even tried a little.
Gliding in a lot of the areas yeah. But places like the Abyss and several other places around you can fly. However, flight is on a timer, depending on the quality of your wings and your level. You can augment your flight time with consumables and ability modifiers (ie manastones, which boost your stats and such on your gear). If your flight timer runs out, you fall out of the sky.
Limiting mounts and travel is really only fair if the game has enough paths for the player to travel. If you are only going A>B>C>B>A and can't go very fast it will get old after the second time. Now, in a world with Vanguard's size and scope, you'd be onto something.
A buddy and I used to just roam VG to see what was waiting around in caves, tombs and dungeons for us to beat up on.
I would love a game with no flying mounts BUT that has some other means of getting past that mob-infested path you are taking for the 200th time, without actually fighting/dodging them.
Something like UO recall runes, but without limiting it to those with some specific skill, and making them bound to a specific character/account so they can't be shared would be fine.
I think mounts should be used for travel and combat only. If there is mounted combat I would hope that the mechanics are not Wow like. Where you point your character in a direction and run and spam the attack button. I think a good starter mechanic for mount combat would be used for an opener. For an example, you charge at your opponent and you get to use 1-3 abilities within in a time frame. The ground combatant would have to stay in one place while the mounted combatant would charge in a straight line. If the mounted combatant has a successful hit he can go back and stay mounted. A miss or an unseccessful hit which would conclude into a knock off the mount. Essentially a 1v1 mini game for pve or pvp.
I like what vanguard did with mounts. You could armor them so you wouldn't get knocked off. However there were penatlities in which your movement was hindered by the barbed dressing on the horses. I think mounts should have several states. I would consider mounts a secondary character. Those states would conclude, HP, Stamina, Strength, Fear and Agility.
Stamina would be essentially like a mana bar. Once the stamina runs out, depending on how long distances or how fast you run it it depletes faster or slower. Strength for how strong the mount can hold on to the rider while in combat. Fear would be what types of environments they can travel through easier. For an example, I don't think a horse would travel through a swamp. Agility would be how well does the mount dodge attacks by mobs in environmental or even enironmental hazards or in combat. I think each mount should have HP. If you gear up your mount that HP increases. I think mounts should die since characters die as well. The only way to let the mounts HP regenerate is through rests.
I think with that idea in mind, players can be more strategic of when they use their mounts instead of being automobiles with legs or wings. I believe that would balance out the use of mounts, both flying and ground and also the adventure on foot.
I just went on a spill and I think I may use that idea for my game design doc lol.
Flying mounts make the world seem small and trivial to me.