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DAOC 2 - Why not?
xBludx
Member Posts: 376
I've read a lot of posts with people saying that DAOC had pvp done right and that it was the best pvp experience they've had in an MMORPG. A lot of those people say the 3-way RvR was one of the most important factors in making pvp work so well in this game. This seems to be a very widespread opinion.
Question: If this is true, why have no developers come out with a DAOC2 or something like it?
Comments
They did. It was War which was supposed to be DAoC 2.0
I can't even consider WAR as a candidate because it is only 2-factions. But yeah, I see that you said "supposed to be."
Why clone DAOC which had like 500k+ subs in its prime when you can try to clone WOW which had like what?, 7+ million subs?....
Thats my take as to why it hasnt been done yet but i think it will eventually when the industry stops aiming for WOW's market...
It just wont be mythic.
p.s i was crushed when i heard WAR had only 2 factions lol....
Regardless, after seeing what they did with WAR (or perhaps what they didn't do), I'm confident in my assumption that Mythic no longer has the talent to make a proper MMO.
maybe starcraft universe? that should have 3 factions
die.
You can't be serious? Even Mark Jacobs said WAR isn't DAOC 2.0, WAR is a DAOC-lite + WoW-lite combined. Unfortunately for Mark & EA Mythic, WAR was nowhere near as good as WoW in terms of PvE & PvP, and nowhere near as good as DAOC in terms of RvR. Warhammer Online is NOT a DAOC 2.0.
As for the topic, why not? Because Mark Jacobs sold out, went for the big money production, bigger budget title like Warhammer Online while getting bought by EA. They could've gone with a DAOC 2 by being Mythic, they had the talent and experience. But going with EA, EA probably wanted a bigger name title to compete with WoW and so they went with a WAR. We all know how that turned out.
It's really too bad that Mark Jacobs & Mythic pooped on their loyal DAOC playerbase, players like me that made them the company they became. People wanted an upgraded DAOC with today's engine, graphics, interface, features, etc.. But instead we got that crap called Warhammer Online, which is essentially a WoW+DAOC-lite.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
- Deleted -
Mythic sold out, sold their soul to the devil that is EA. They lost focus of what made their first game special and they screwed the pooch on WAR and have since been dwindled down to a shell of what they once were.
If we got DAoC 2 it would be an EA reincarnation.
Maybe this is true - but the concept of 3 faction RvR doesn't belong to them.
Why hasn't another developer seen any potential in this?
But then in the same moment I try to think with some Blizzard´s boss brain: why make something completely new, if there are so many people ready to pay for things that already exist?
I guess this leads to the points, why people demand a WoW-killer.
Yeah, I wonder.
Because most of the MMO industry has been infested with a false belief that catering to the WoW themepark demographic while rushing out half polished messes of a game is the way to go. Until this mentality changes we will continue to see the garbage that is clogging the MMO market and that is why we have seen trash game out of trash game come out this year.
The MMO industry is in shambles. Its pathetic, really. There is such a lack of innovation and creativity it is mindblogging.
The gaming industry is rather trend sensitive, very little is done if it's not considered flavour of the year. In my opinion there are currently two trends in the MMO genre:
1. The WoW-inspired themepark, complete with quests, raids and gear grind.
2. The action/console/shooter combat-heavy game with little depth but "easy fun".
DAoC2 would be neither 1) nor 2) - thus it's not done.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I think there is a lot of misinterpretation as to why games "fail", and whether or not a game did, actually, fail. I noticed someone mentioning DAoC had at its peak "only" 500k subscriptions. That, IMO, is a success, even in the WoW era. That's $25 million in box sales alone, with $6 million a month in subs ($12/month). The game failed not because of the RvR concept, but because other games came out with better graphics and (more importantly, IMO) better interfaces, not to mention the game was cannabalized by War. It seems other companies miss all that, and just see that of the only two RvR games out there, one is on life support (DAoC), and the other is doing so-so (I think?). Anyway, I hope that someone else sees that the RvR concept is one with great potential, and put it into a game that is not a WoW-clone. I don't see DAoC2 being much of a possibility, but another RvR game should do very well, as it would bridge the gap between handholding WoW-style and hardcore games like DFO and EvE.
I have to agree with your analysis of what has happened to DAOC. I don't think it "failed" at all, in a commercial sense. I think it is just plain old.
A lot of players also have disputes with the devs of the game for directions it took after launch, but that is another issue, as well.
As you point out, the graphics obviously show their age, and the UI is a part of that. In a sense, the fact that people still play DAOC after all this time with such ancient graphics and cumbersome UI is a testament to an underlying quality in this game's concept of 3-way RvR/faction conflict.
Compared to WoW, DAoC 2 would be a niche game. Everything is a niche compared to WoW.
So, planning on REASONABLE subscription numbers, can you make DAoC 2 with a budget that makes a profit?
I don't know.
If you need to spend a 100 mil on it, I think the answer is no, it's a loser.
TOR is spending over 100 million, and have already pretty much stated they need at LEAST 1 mil subscribers.
Could you make a DECENT game with a fraction of that budget? I don't know.
Dark Age of Camelot had nowhere near 500k subs at its prime. It was somewhere around 250k. DaOC is not a very strong brand name.
The REAL reason why no one has done it is simple and comes down to one word. Scoping. A lot of MMOs actually start out as 3 or even 4 factions, then producers start to take a look at how production is moving along and say, "Holy Hell, there is no way we are going to be able to complete this game on time and on budget."
So they start cutting things. Factions ALWAYS go first because lets face it, UI, Combat, Classes, etc. are all more important. There is a certain level polish that is expected out of MMOs today and 90% of games released can't even hit that. Imagine trying to tack on a whole other fation with an additional 10+ zones, 3-4 dungeons, 3+ races, 500+ quests, capital cities, etc.
It's just not feasible for any studio to do unless you have a HUGE budget or decide to scope out other features of your game.
Wasn't DAOC listed in TOP 5 PvP games recently by mmorpg.com??
I think DAOC 2 was early in development around the time of WAR and the takeover by EA and clash in projects led to DAOC 2 being replaced by WAR? I forget the story now...
Why do companies not make multi-faction games? It seems to have worked for DAOC? ^The above may be a reason ie budget. I was thinking about this and taking a strange example such as if you had a football (soccer ahem) and you only need 2 players for each team, it's easier to get matches running. Imagine if each team required 11 v 11 ie 1 player per player position ie 1 player goes in goal another as striker and another as eg right-midfield... I think it would become overbearing to arrange people to play, even if it was f*ing awesome! There is F2P Regnum which uses 3 factions but not many.
Maybe this is another reason we do not see eg 3 factions more?
Take WH40K that is coming out and think that is also 2 factions when there are are about 4 human races, eldar, orcs, chaos several, tyrannids, d elder, tau... and the developers don't even talk about this subject of number of factions at all but like politicians completely side-step discussing with the fans their reaons or assumptions for 2 factions. Are they hiding something? It seems to me this IP is ripe for creating factions of players that are motivated to kill the other factions as they love the IP.
However choosing another company as an example of one which likes to discuss things albeit when they are ready to be discussed:
MMORPG.com:
You talked a lot about camaraderie among players. Many MMOs have lost this on a wide level because of guild groups and smaller factions. How do you see players joining up on a large scale in Guild Wars 2?
Colin:
I think Dynamic Events is the thing that will do that. That is the glue in the bond that brings the players together. I think that will give you recognition when you start to build that sense of community. The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server. We think we will have those bonds because your server is matched up against two other servers. So it is just that much more important that you become friends and you bond with the players on your server. So the friends you make through PvE and Dynamic Events, those friends will carry over into World vs. World PvP. You may get out of World vs. World PvP and go back to early zones to do events with new people and help encourage them to join you in the fight for your server to take part in battles and beat the other two. We expect large strong communities on each server and I think PvP will end up affecting PvE because people will work together.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_PvP
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Mark Jacobs and EA. Which is why if I ever meet Mark Jacobs I will kick him in the nuts.
"Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."
This makes me very happy! I wasn't really following GW2 that much due to hype avoidance mode, but I'm going to have to look into this a bit more.
Thanks for the thoughtful posts, Fief5, MumboJumbo, and everyone else.
Not so strange, the hype have been mostly about PvE. While many of ANETs biggest fans are PvP players it have been very little talk about the PvP aspect of the game. Mostly because ANET have a policy to not discuss things before they are in the game and working fine, PvP tend to be the last thing you get working as it should since it's balancing is the hard work.
I wish Mythic would have done the same thing, they revealed a lot of cool things about WAR but then cancel every single thing I was looking forward to. If they just had been quite about them the game would probably have done better.
I still have some hope that there will be a DaoC 2, but I think even if it will be things will be very different from the first game. Few guys are on the team still, only in some position is Barnett and he is the one I rather had fired and moved to Cryptic or somewherel. Bioware is more or less heading Mythic now so any new DaoC will probably be more Dragon age and mass effect then most fans expect.
Never go back in time. It never works.
And those developpers of GW2 are taking a ridiculous path that can only lead to disaster.
They still load their unborn donkey with extreme 800lbs hype and it is just waiting to fall through its brittle knees.
Just as if that other Mythic monkey (jumping flash Paul) never even existed.
"Open world PvP" can never be seen on cross server realms: because that's a preloaded instance you talk about.
At least when you hype: tell the truth.
As Loke mentions, PvP is strictly on a "need-to-know" basis
Best carry on avoiding hype for another 3/4 months?!!
@ above poster:
"Open World PvP" ~ Darkfall eg
"Faction (RvR) PvP" ~ DAOC, WAR, WvWvW
Is a bit clearer?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Well that was a misnomer about DAoC having done pvp right in a sense that it was good until they got really creative and made the Trials of Atlantis expansion. Then the only competitive players were those that had completed a long arduous quest chain.
They also had other issues with the game, Too powerful CC, with lilttle counter except lots of pvp play. Unbalanced classes because they had far too many. Too powerful stealth with no counter.
In the long run, it was a good game when it came out, that got steadily worse.