I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Its not about being casual or not. I dont have much time either, but i dont mind if i log on for 2 hours and i only kill 1 boss with my 5 man group because the other 3 bosses were camped by other 3 groups. Its a different type of entertainment. Not the same genre. Thats why i ask dont call instanced games MMORPGs, because i am not getting the MMORPG feeling in them.
Let me play what i want, dont mislead me with calling 5 player games MASSIVE games.
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Its not about being casual or not. I dont have much time either, but i dont mind if i log on for 2 hours and i only kill 1 boss with my 5 man group because the other 3 bosses were camped by other 3 groups. Its a different type of entertainment. Not the same genre. Thats why i ask dont call instanced games MMORPGs, because i am not getting the MMORPG feeling in them.
Let me play what i want, dont mislead me with calling 5 player games MASSIVE games.
I definetly would not call a game where you only get to interact with 5 other players as 'massive'. In contrast in WoW I get to interact with hundreds of other players each time I log on. The level of each individual interaction might not be deep but it's on a 'massive' scale.
I remember 40 man raids and while we all grouped together, the interaction level was pretty low. I would actively interact with the raid leader and/or class leader. If I played a healer I would interact with more people but in a very passive way. There just was no way or reason to properly interact with all the 39 other people. In contrast in a 10 man group I get to interact with most members in a very active way.
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Although i rather not get into the casual vs Hardcore topic it seems it must be done . In EQ where there alot of casual players raiding no because it wasnt there place to raid they didnt have the time to raid so they accepted it . Now i am not saying its right to exclude thease people from playingt the game but im sorry if you dont have the time to play a game that the raids require you to actually be there for a few hours then dont raid you dont have to or you are not forced to there is other things to do.
For the MMORPG part you are forgetting they are stll massive but the multiplayer is forced out of the word you are no longer forced to group you are no longer forced together to acomplsih anything.
I understand that there are alot of casual players out there and alot of us old school gamers from back when EQ was king are much older and have famillys but i am sure as hell waiting for another game like EQ was where i was forced to band together to level to raid to actually acomplish things not like this new genre of MMORPGS.
Imho WoW is what killed it sure they took alot of things from other mmo's but did they make them better nope they made them worse where is the sence of danger when playing where is the sence of oh hell i have to get out of here because if i die i lose alot of xp that i just worked hard for . Where is the sence of this epic quest took me 1 year to finish i loved every min of it .People have become lazy is what it is you can come up with every excuse to that one word or try and defend yourself and the fact of the matter is you cant because you think your entitled to have the games cater to all of you .
What needs to start happening is every dev needs to stop trying to make games to take or target WoW's numbers you dont need that many players to be sucessfull at all if each of thease companies released games for there nitch gamers they wouldnt have issues at all and all of us that have been looking for the next MMO to call home would stop because the nitche game we wanted are needed for so long has been made.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
If i offended anyone im sorry but the truth may hurt .
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Its not about being casual or not. I dont have much time either, but i dont mind if i log on for 2 hours and i only kill 1 boss with my 5 man group because the other 3 bosses were camped by other 3 groups. Its a different type of entertainment. Not the same genre. Thats why i ask dont call instanced games MMORPGs, because i am not getting the MMORPG feeling in them.
Let me play what i want, dont mislead me with calling 5 player games MASSIVE games.
I definetly would not call a game where you only get to interact with 5 other players as 'massive'. In contrast in WoW I get to interact with hundreds of other players each time I log on. The level of each individual interaction might not be deep but it's on a 'massive' scale.
I remember 40 man raids and while we all grouped together, the interaction level was pretty low. I would actively interact with the raid leader and/or class leader. If I played a healer I would interact with more people but in a very passive way. There just was no way or reason to properly interact with all the 39 other people. In contrast in a 10 man group I get to interact with most members in a very active way.
So we can call Diablo 2 an MMORPG too? In diablo 2 i am interacting with hundreds of players in the Chat Lobby too. WoW orgrimmar is virtually a chat lobby with city skin. How often did you group in non instanced areas while you leveled from lvl 80-85? In WoW you leave the chat lobby (Stormwind) go for some solo gaming (questing) then join a 5-10 player multiplayer experience (grouping-raiding). You virtually have no connection with the massively multiplayer world. You are not effected by the other players outside your group. This is called a multiplayer game. Even in a 40 player raid you have no connection with the other 99% of the playerbase. Its like you restricted yourself to play with 40 players, now restricting yourself to play with 40 players is multiplayer, while restricting yourself to play with 4000 is massively multiplayer.
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Although i rather not get into the casual vs Hardcore topic it seems it must be done . In EQ where there alot of casual players raiding no because it wasnt there place to raid they didnt have the time to raid so they accepted it . Now i am not saying its right to exclude thease people from playingt the game but im sorry if you dont have the time to play a game that the raids require you to actually be there for a few hours then dont raid you dont have to or you are not forced to there is other things to do.
For the MMORPG part you are forgetting they are stll massive but the multiplayer is forced out of the word you are no longer forced to group you are no longer forced together to acomplsih anything.
I understand that there are alot of casual players out there and alot of us old school gamers from back when EQ was king are much older and have famillys but i am sure as hell waiting for another game like EQ was where i was forced to band together to level to raid to actually acomplish things not like this new genre of MMORPGS.
Imho WoW is what killed it sure they took alot of things from other mmo's but did they make them better nope they made them worse where is the sence of danger when playing where is the sence of oh hell i have to get out of here because if i die i lose alot of xp that i just worked hard for . Where is the sence of this epic quest took me 1 year to finish i loved every min of it .People have become lazy is what it is you can come up with every excuse to that one word or try and defend yourself and the fact of the matter is you cant because you think your entitled to have the games cater to all of you .
What needs to start happening is every dev needs to stop trying to make games to take or target WoW's numbers you dont need that many players to be sucessfull at all if each of thease companies released games for there nitch gamers they wouldnt have issues at all and all of us that have been looking for the next MMO to call home would stop because the nitche game we wanted are needed for so long has been made.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
If i offended anyone im sorry but the truth may hurt .
TY for this reply Kazlin! Loved it =D and remember EQ just as fondly! If you were not aware they are launching a new time locked progression server starting with EQ Classic. There are alot of unanswered questions atm as to how "Classic" it will start but supposedly all will be answered after the vote to name this new progression server concludes.
I'd much rather have a polished new game with the right touches of EQ and some newer elements as well but we still have to dream as far as that is concerned. Here's hoping it happens before I'm too jaded with the genre to realize its come ;D.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
I couldnt agree more. And here is my solution. Call them multiplayer rpgs, and problem solved. No one will blame them for the reasons people are blaming them. Call wow a multiplayer experience and live with the 15 million subscribers in happiness. Clean the genre from the Non MMORPGs so we can see clearly.
You know what i think? I think that in the past 10 years the number of MMORPG players have not changed at all, it is still as low as it was back in 2000. What changed is this: Single and multiplayer games started to call themselves MMORPGs and suddenly everyone became an MMORPG player. These people are simply not MMORPG players, they dont like the genre, they want multiplayer experience without being disturbed. Its ok. No problems at all. I just dont understand why does real MMORPGs have to die because of this.
While I agree that I loved Everquest to pieces there are certain things that make it very difficult to work nowadays. People will not accept it and the game will end up with few people playing and get shut down.
I remember this like it was yesterday playing a wizard and very overplayed I guess being DPS at that time I did not know being that it was my first MMORPG that cleric was the way to go. You do not need a wizard in every group. I would wait sometimes up to 3 hours in a queue to get a spot in a group. Since the dungeon was open and there were limited spaces people who played in the group for hours and hours just kept others out by merely playing and not vacating the spot. I was lucky because I had friends who would get me in but I still stood around chatting with friends while waiting to play for a long time. They could not just kick someone out and put me in so I would wait.
Do you honestly think people will accept this nowadays ? Be honest and think about it. Even I have difficulty thinking back to how much time I wasted just waiting to get into a group in High Pass Hold where they had three rooms max so 18 people only got to play. This was when EQ was just a few months old. Sincerely if you made a game like this most people will quit while some of us might play it but the number will not keep the game alive not for the money a developer would spend to make it these days.
It is not the corpse runs or training or killstealing or anything like that that would be a problem. This waiting to get a place will be the nail. While I agree that human interaction is the single best and single most important thing that builds a game community and entices you to stay longer making public dungeons might not be the way to go.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
I couldnt agree more. And here is my solution. Call them multiplayer rpgs, and problem solved. No one will blame them for the reasons people are blaming them. Call wow a multiplayer experience and live with the 15 million subscribers in happiness. Clean the genre from the Non MMORPGs so we can see clearly.
You know what i think? I think that in the past 10 years the number of MMORPG players have not changed at all, it is still as low as it was back in 2000. What changed is this: Single and multiplayer games started to call themselves MMORPGs and suddenly everyone became an MMORPG player. These people are simply not MMORPG players, they dont like the genre, they want multiplayer experience without being disturbed. Its ok. No problems at all. I just dont understand why does real MMORPGs have to die because of this.
I agree somewhat too but where is the line drawn for the minimum number of players required to be considered massive? How would you define it?
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
I couldnt agree more. And here is my solution. Call them multiplayer rpgs, and problem solved. No one will blame them for the reasons people are blaming them. Call wow a multiplayer experience and live with the 15 million subscribers in happiness. Clean the genre from the Non MMORPGs so we can see clearly.
You know what i think? I think that in the past 10 years the number of MMORPG players have not changed at all, it is still as low as it was back in 2000. What changed is this: Single and multiplayer games started to call themselves MMORPGs and suddenly everyone became an MMORPG player. These people are simply not MMORPG players, they dont like the genre, they want multiplayer experience without being disturbed. Its ok. No problems at all. I just dont understand why does real MMORPGs have to die because of this.
I agree somewhat too but where is the line drawn for the minimum number of players required to be considered massive? How would you define it?
Theres no rule for it sadly.
For me it starts with no instances. To have a chance to get in contact with anyone. Not to be restricted for 5-10 players. If i go to a dungeon i can meet other people too who i didnt know that they were there.
I think the rule could be something like this: "A Massively Multiplayer game is a game, in which the whole server population can be at the same time at the same place at any location in the game world."
Of course this rule is theoretical because server capacity comes into play, but if this rule is true, then there are no instances, and you have a chance to meet anyone anywhere and play in mass or play in small groups if you like.
On the other hand to anwser the poster before: compare the size of Everquest, and the size of WoW. WoW is about 5 times smaller. If a world is huge enough, the content is enough, you dont need to suffer in Highold keep with 3 groups because there are 15 other high hold keeps on the map. With a server population of 3-5k this should not be a problem, it is all about the size of the content and the world.
You're basically saying your biggest personal problem with EQ was its limited amount of lets say prime exp spots. This is very true and was a big problem in the beginning as was kill stealing and named mob "camps" etc etc (as you mentioned). This is a pretty easy fix and Vanguard took care of it for the most part. They implemented many different questing areas/dungeons for similar level ranges. As well as rewarding some of the premier dungeon loot through quests around which ever area. So to develop a new game like EQ you don't have to make it on the scale of original EQ. The problems stemmed from being one of the only games of its kind therefore taking a large portion of that eras player base (quickly grew too big for its britches).
Unfortunately, if you missed out on Vanguard and the whole debacle surrounding it then in short it had a very buggy launch and is now no longer being actively developed by SoE in favor of EQ II/EQ Next. Here's hoping they get it right with EQ Next (snowballs chance in hell but yea).
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No I betaed and played Vanguard and I did enjoy it but quit due to the bugs and when I next came back to it after SOE took over it was essentially a single player experience although I did play with my guild but the dungeons were not so camped and I did not notice the way they did it since it was not an issue in a scarcely populated game. I loved Vanguard but it was sadly underpopulated so that worked against it.
That could work if they designed it that way but avoid Everquest design at all costs and even then we had up to about 2000 players on the servers from when they had the population up at one time. Or am I mistaking it for some other game.I recall people saying the heavily populated servers like mine Bertoxxulous was hosting 2000 simultaneously.
Of course you could go adventure outside but if you wanted the loot in the dungeon you would have to queue and wait. I did that in every dungeon from HPH, Solusek all the way to Guk
Skipping right to the end and posting a reply that I'm sure was done a half a dozen times already. OP described Darkfall, only with more players.
But wait, why doesn't DF have more players? Perhaps because its design caters to a small niche of players?
There are massive MMO's out there, and even DF has had battles of several hundred or more, seriously, what more can one ask for?
Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees.
Darkfall doesn't have more players than it does because while its semi-sandbox it fell far short of its original aims in far too many respects to keep more of its supporters around. I'm sure you've read about some of the early dev claims regarding Darkfall and what was inevitably released. While playable and in some ways innovative it was definitely not all that had been purported.
No I betaed and played Vanguard and I did enjoy it but quit due to the bugs and when I next came back to it after SOE took over it was essentially a single player experience although I did play with my guild but the dungeons were not so camped and I did not notice the way they did it since it was not an issue in a scarcely populated game. I loved Vanguard but it was sadly underpopulated so that worked against it.
That could work if they designed it that way but avoid Everquest design at all costs and even then we had up to about 2000 players on the servers from when they had the population up at one time. Or am I mistaking it for some other game.I recall people saying the heavily populated servers like mine Bertoxxulous was hosting 2000 simultaneously.
Of course you could go adventure outside but if you wanted the loot in the dungeon you would have to queue and wait. I did that in every dungeon from HPH, Solusek all the way to Guk
Yea, you're correct that originally a populated EQ server had around 2000 players but in relation to Vanguards size 2000 players do not adequately distribute themselves enough. It faced the problem that heavily quest based games do as well in that you need to find people on the same step/quest as you are to progress or have a static group to roll with (which is very hard to find let alone always be around for).
Coincidentally, Bertoxxulous was my first server in EQ as well so maybe we saw each other way back when if you played there during Classic and Kunark.
Darkfall is also FFA PvP game and that is another factor that deters many from trying it. I for one won't play it for that reason even if I might enjoy the Everquest atmosphere and everything that goes with that design I will not play a FFA PvP game and I am certain there are others like me but games like that cater to a taste and crowd and it is doing well is it not ?
Yes I probably know you I started in April 1999 and played there till we moved to 7th hammer. My wizard was called syakila.
Darkfall is also FFA PvP game and that is another factor that deters many from trying it. I for one won't play it for that reason even if I might enjoy the Everquest atmosphere and everything that goes with that design I will not play a FFA PvP game and I am certain there are others like me but games like that cater to a taste and crowd and it is doing well is it not ?
Yes I probably know you I started in April 1999 and played there till we moved to 7th hammer. My wizard was called syakila.
Don't know of any FFA PvP games that are doing exceptionally well at the moment. Darkfall certainly isn't! It sold itself as a spiritual successor to UO and just wasn't even close. The skill system with no skill cap was probably the biggest impracticality and what really hinders the games fun/accessibility. Technically it allows for a player to take any skill they want without penalty and therefore build the character "their way" but what ends up happening is to compete you'll need to pick up most all of the "good skills" and end up like everyone else. Which some would argue is perfect for PvP since essentially everyone will be on equal terms but only after a massive grind!
Was troll warrior Grugg back on EQ and while I don't remember your wizard it has been a very long time ;D.
There are some real MMOs were you can't kill steal or even PvP, I can understand that you wont like how instanced the games have become today of course but many people played small games for years without getting tired, I remember having friends that play Diablo 1 & 2 for years.
The thread is why you are bored from MMOs, not us. While I prefer games with limited instancing and phasing do I like games with smaller groups as well as massive ones. I love NWN and have spent years in Guildwars without getting bored.
To be honest do I just want a really good game, if it is massive or not is not that big deal for me.
I am still bored with most MMOs but not for the reasons you state. We are all individuals and we like different things.
I don't really care if I play a MMORPG or a CORPG, a sandbox or a themepark, PvP or PvE as long as I have fun.
Aren't YOU bored with playground MMOs?
I sure am!
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
There are some real MMOs were you can't kill steal or even PvP, I can understand that you wont like how instanced the games have become today of course but many people played small games for years without getting tired, I remember having friends that play Diablo 1 & 2 for years.
The thread is why you are bored from MMOs, not us. While I prefer games with limited instancing and phasing do I like games with smaller groups as well as massive ones. I love NWN and have spent years in Guildwars without getting bored.
To be honest do I just want a really good game, if it is massive or not is not that big deal for me.
I am still bored with most MMOs but not for the reasons you state. We are all individuals and we like different things.
I don't really care if I play a MMORPG or a CORPG, a sandbox or a themepark, PvP or PvE as long as I have fun.
Aren't YOU bored with playground MMOs?
I sure am!
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
Devs are not lazy, they just look at the market and see what is popular cause they really want to earn money for food/rent/house/clothes etc.
Even if we take out WoW, theme park MMOs do way better than sandbox ones; LOTRO,Aion etc.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
There are some real MMOs were you can't kill steal or even PvP, I can understand that you wont like how instanced the games have become today of course but many people played small games for years without getting tired, I remember having friends that play Diablo 1 & 2 for years.
The thread is why you are bored from MMOs, not us. While I prefer games with limited instancing and phasing do I like games with smaller groups as well as massive ones. I love NWN and have spent years in Guildwars without getting bored.
To be honest do I just want a really good game, if it is massive or not is not that big deal for me.
I am still bored with most MMOs but not for the reasons you state. We are all individuals and we like different things.
I don't really care if I play a MMORPG or a CORPG, a sandbox or a themepark, PvP or PvE as long as I have fun.
Aren't YOU bored with playground MMOs?
I sure am!
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
Devs are not lazy, they just look at the market and see what is popular cause they really want to earn money for food/rent/house/clothes etc.
Even if we take out WoW, theme park MMOs do way better than sandbox ones; LOTRO,Aion etc.
Indeed it is common knowledge that LotRO and Aion both went F2P with a quickness. Certainly shows how amazingly popular these games are.
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Although i rather not get into the casual vs Hardcore topic it seems it must be done . In EQ where there alot of casual players raiding no because it wasnt there place to raid they didnt have the time to raid so they accepted it . Now i am not saying its right to exclude thease people from playingt the game but im sorry if you dont have the time to play a game that the raids require you to actually be there for a few hours then dont raid you dont have to or you are not forced to there is other things to do.
For the MMORPG part you are forgetting they are stll massive but the multiplayer is forced out of the word you are no longer forced to group you are no longer forced together to acomplsih anything.
I understand that there are alot of casual players out there and alot of us old school gamers from back when EQ was king are much older and have famillys but i am sure as hell waiting for another game like EQ was where i was forced to band together to level to raid to actually acomplish things not like this new genre of MMORPGS.
Imho WoW is what killed it sure they took alot of things from other mmo's but did they make them better nope they made them worse where is the sence of danger when playing where is the sence of oh hell i have to get out of here because if i die i lose alot of xp that i just worked hard for . Where is the sence of this epic quest took me 1 year to finish i loved every min of it .People have become lazy is what it is you can come up with every excuse to that one word or try and defend yourself and the fact of the matter is you cant because you think your entitled to have the games cater to all of you .
What needs to start happening is every dev needs to stop trying to make games to take or target WoW's numbers you dont need that many players to be sucessfull at all if each of thease companies released games for there nitch gamers they wouldnt have issues at all and all of us that have been looking for the next MMO to call home would stop because the nitche game we wanted are needed for so long has been made.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
If i offended anyone im sorry but the truth may hurt .
TY for this reply Kazlin! Loved it =D and remember EQ just as fondly! If you were not aware they are launching a new time locked progression server starting with EQ Classic. There are alot of unanswered questions atm as to how "Classic" it will start but supposedly all will be answered after the vote to name this new progression server concludes.
I'd much rather have a polished new game with the right touches of EQ and some newer elements as well but we still have to dream as far as that is concerned. Here's hoping it happens before I'm too jaded with the genre to realize its come ;D.
Thaks i am so sick and tired of the new MMO's i go out and spend all this money on new games hopeing to find i game close to what EQ made me feel like .
I have played Vanguard and loved it for awile but the only game that kept me hooked for a long long time is EQ. I am gonna try the progression server but sadly i am also buying rift as it has a sence of EQ ness with the rift system but it has alot of Quest bases blah as well so i will juggle the time between both.
Here i am hopeing and praying that they get EQ Next right they had EQ2 done really well in the begining minus all the bugs and the end raid bosses were epic and they felt epic when you finished i trust SoE and they have the best for Content wize so i hope i will be hooked with EQ next.
There are some real MMOs were you can't kill steal or even PvP, I can understand that you wont like how instanced the games have become today of course but many people played small games for years without getting tired, I remember having friends that play Diablo 1 & 2 for years.
The thread is why you are bored from MMOs, not us. While I prefer games with limited instancing and phasing do I like games with smaller groups as well as massive ones. I love NWN and have spent years in Guildwars without getting bored.
To be honest do I just want a really good game, if it is massive or not is not that big deal for me.
I am still bored with most MMOs but not for the reasons you state. We are all individuals and we like different things.
I don't really care if I play a MMORPG or a CORPG, a sandbox or a themepark, PvP or PvE as long as I have fun.
Aren't YOU bored with playground MMOs?
I sure am!
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
Devs are not lazy, they just look at the market and see what is popular cause they really want to earn money for food/rent/house/clothes etc.
Even if we take out WoW, theme park MMOs do way better than sandbox ones; LOTRO,Aion etc.
Indeed it is common knowledge that LotRO and Aion both went F2P with a quickness. Certainly shows how amazingly popular these games are.
And if the devs aren't lazy how come that TB, VG, AoC and WAR plus scores more failed?
I tell you what the devs ARE lazy or we would right now be be playing the amazing and fun state of the art MMORPG with a playerbase of 20 million or more.
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
Devs are not lazy, they just look at the market and see what is popular cause they really want to earn money for food/rent/house/clothes etc.
Even if we take out WoW, theme park MMOs do way better than sandbox ones; LOTRO,Aion etc.
Indeed it is common knowledge that LotRO and Aion both went F2P with a quickness. Certainly shows how amazingly popular these games are.
I know! So popular that LoTRO is earning how much for Turbine again?
LoTRO went F2P cause DDO went F2P before and made 300% profit for Turbine.
Yeah, and I'm sure LoTRO profits are smaller than all these 'hugely popular sandbox games'! /sarcasm
I have nothing against sandbox games, but the current market is saying 'we want themepark'.
They haven't made a proper sand box game since Eve and for some of us its just not the sand box for us. Other then that they just do not make sand box games in favor of making continually fail theme parks. I've played both LotRO and DDO just to give them a chance and while not horrible they are pretty much more of the same. DDO's reliance on bombarding me with in game sales was a turn off as well. Played LotRO before it went F2P but expect its very similar to DDO having given Turbine multiple chances.
Basically the current market has never seen a sand box game because the vast majority (90-95% is my guess) haven't played UO or Eve. Ryzom and Darkfall both do not count either. I've played both and they aren't very sand box. Darkfall hardly at all, Ryzom you can argue it but way too much digging.
I'm guessing you've never heard of Minecraft nor about its success as well when you said essentially the market doesn't want sand box games!
Comments
I would agree with the OP MMOS, but only because there was a need to tone down the amount of players in an area. Pretend you have a job, that you work at for 9 hours(30 min lunch, two 15 min breaks). Just how much time do you have to devote to a MMO. not too much, once you think of laundry, lawn mowing, cooking, bathing, family, etc.
I remember 140 man raids that took 8-12 hours in EQ back in the day. Those raid were scheduled a week in advance, and it still takes about 2 hours to get everyone together, and ready. Not even starting clearing a plane. They were for the hardcore, as mob resets areon weekdays. The average person didn't get a chace to do them as they were dead by week's end.
Blizz saw this and toned down the people requirement for their raids to 40. then changed it to 10 and 25 in BC.All in an attempt to have the casual populace stay. And they've been very successful at it. As such all the other companies are copy/pasting that idea, because people with less time outnumber people with lots of time atleast a hundred to one.
While huge raids are rather epic to be a part of, there was a need for more casual play, and business always goes where the money is.
Its not about being casual or not. I dont have much time either, but i dont mind if i log on for 2 hours and i only kill 1 boss with my 5 man group because the other 3 bosses were camped by other 3 groups. Its a different type of entertainment. Not the same genre. Thats why i ask dont call instanced games MMORPGs, because i am not getting the MMORPG feeling in them.
Let me play what i want, dont mislead me with calling 5 player games MASSIVE games.
I definetly would not call a game where you only get to interact with 5 other players as 'massive'. In contrast in WoW I get to interact with hundreds of other players each time I log on. The level of each individual interaction might not be deep but it's on a 'massive' scale.
I remember 40 man raids and while we all grouped together, the interaction level was pretty low. I would actively interact with the raid leader and/or class leader. If I played a healer I would interact with more people but in a very passive way. There just was no way or reason to properly interact with all the 39 other people. In contrast in a 10 man group I get to interact with most members in a very active way.
Although i rather not get into the casual vs Hardcore topic it seems it must be done . In EQ where there alot of casual players raiding no because it wasnt there place to raid they didnt have the time to raid so they accepted it . Now i am not saying its right to exclude thease people from playingt the game but im sorry if you dont have the time to play a game that the raids require you to actually be there for a few hours then dont raid you dont have to or you are not forced to there is other things to do.
For the MMORPG part you are forgetting they are stll massive but the multiplayer is forced out of the word you are no longer forced to group you are no longer forced together to acomplsih anything.
I understand that there are alot of casual players out there and alot of us old school gamers from back when EQ was king are much older and have famillys but i am sure as hell waiting for another game like EQ was where i was forced to band together to level to raid to actually acomplish things not like this new genre of MMORPGS.
Imho WoW is what killed it sure they took alot of things from other mmo's but did they make them better nope they made them worse where is the sence of danger when playing where is the sence of oh hell i have to get out of here because if i die i lose alot of xp that i just worked hard for . Where is the sence of this epic quest took me 1 year to finish i loved every min of it .People have become lazy is what it is you can come up with every excuse to that one word or try and defend yourself and the fact of the matter is you cant because you think your entitled to have the games cater to all of you .
What needs to start happening is every dev needs to stop trying to make games to take or target WoW's numbers you dont need that many players to be sucessfull at all if each of thease companies released games for there nitch gamers they wouldnt have issues at all and all of us that have been looking for the next MMO to call home would stop because the nitche game we wanted are needed for so long has been made.
Im sick and tired of the solo crap that this genre has become if i wanted to play a Single Player game i would go play a game like dragonage or etc .Leave WoW to the casual players and etc that is there game we need the hardcore players to have there own game the hard core PvP players to have there own game .
If i offended anyone im sorry but the truth may hurt .
So we can call Diablo 2 an MMORPG too? In diablo 2 i am interacting with hundreds of players in the Chat Lobby too. WoW orgrimmar is virtually a chat lobby with city skin. How often did you group in non instanced areas while you leveled from lvl 80-85? In WoW you leave the chat lobby (Stormwind) go for some solo gaming (questing) then join a 5-10 player multiplayer experience (grouping-raiding). You virtually have no connection with the massively multiplayer world. You are not effected by the other players outside your group. This is called a multiplayer game. Even in a 40 player raid you have no connection with the other 99% of the playerbase. Its like you restricted yourself to play with 40 players, now restricting yourself to play with 40 players is multiplayer, while restricting yourself to play with 4000 is massively multiplayer.
TY for this reply Kazlin! Loved it =D and remember EQ just as fondly! If you were not aware they are launching a new time locked progression server starting with EQ Classic. There are alot of unanswered questions atm as to how "Classic" it will start but supposedly all will be answered after the vote to name this new progression server concludes.
I'd much rather have a polished new game with the right touches of EQ and some newer elements as well but we still have to dream as far as that is concerned. Here's hoping it happens before I'm too jaded with the genre to realize its come ;D.
Agreed
and i can say i m bored with most actual mmorpgs because i have ZERO freedom : i take a quest I kill 12 things i finish the quest next one etc.
instanced games, morpgs, repetitive..;
I couldnt agree more. And here is my solution. Call them multiplayer rpgs, and problem solved. No one will blame them for the reasons people are blaming them. Call wow a multiplayer experience and live with the 15 million subscribers in happiness. Clean the genre from the Non MMORPGs so we can see clearly.
You know what i think? I think that in the past 10 years the number of MMORPG players have not changed at all, it is still as low as it was back in 2000. What changed is this: Single and multiplayer games started to call themselves MMORPGs and suddenly everyone became an MMORPG player. These people are simply not MMORPG players, they dont like the genre, they want multiplayer experience without being disturbed. Its ok. No problems at all. I just dont understand why does real MMORPGs have to die because of this.
While I agree that I loved Everquest to pieces there are certain things that make it very difficult to work nowadays. People will not accept it and the game will end up with few people playing and get shut down.
I remember this like it was yesterday playing a wizard and very overplayed I guess being DPS at that time I did not know being that it was my first MMORPG that cleric was the way to go. You do not need a wizard in every group. I would wait sometimes up to 3 hours in a queue to get a spot in a group. Since the dungeon was open and there were limited spaces people who played in the group for hours and hours just kept others out by merely playing and not vacating the spot. I was lucky because I had friends who would get me in but I still stood around chatting with friends while waiting to play for a long time. They could not just kick someone out and put me in so I would wait.
Do you honestly think people will accept this nowadays ? Be honest and think about it. Even I have difficulty thinking back to how much time I wasted just waiting to get into a group in High Pass Hold where they had three rooms max so 18 people only got to play. This was when EQ was just a few months old. Sincerely if you made a game like this most people will quit while some of us might play it but the number will not keep the game alive not for the money a developer would spend to make it these days.
It is not the corpse runs or training or killstealing or anything like that that would be a problem. This waiting to get a place will be the nail. While I agree that human interaction is the single best and single most important thing that builds a game community and entices you to stay longer making public dungeons might not be the way to go.
I agree somewhat too but where is the line drawn for the minimum number of players required to be considered massive? How would you define it?
Theres no rule for it sadly.
For me it starts with no instances. To have a chance to get in contact with anyone. Not to be restricted for 5-10 players. If i go to a dungeon i can meet other people too who i didnt know that they were there.
I think the rule could be something like this: "A Massively Multiplayer game is a game, in which the whole server population can be at the same time at the same place at any location in the game world."
Of course this rule is theoretical because server capacity comes into play, but if this rule is true, then there are no instances, and you have a chance to meet anyone anywhere and play in mass or play in small groups if you like.
On the other hand to anwser the poster before: compare the size of Everquest, and the size of WoW. WoW is about 5 times smaller. If a world is huge enough, the content is enough, you dont need to suffer in Highold keep with 3 groups because there are 15 other high hold keeps on the map. With a server population of 3-5k this should not be a problem, it is all about the size of the content and the world.
@Cheyane ;
You're basically saying your biggest personal problem with EQ was its limited amount of lets say prime exp spots. This is very true and was a big problem in the beginning as was kill stealing and named mob "camps" etc etc (as you mentioned). This is a pretty easy fix and Vanguard took care of it for the most part. They implemented many different questing areas/dungeons for similar level ranges. As well as rewarding some of the premier dungeon loot through quests around which ever area. So to develop a new game like EQ you don't have to make it on the scale of original EQ. The problems stemmed from being one of the only games of its kind therefore taking a large portion of that eras player base (quickly grew too big for its britches).
Unfortunately, if you missed out on Vanguard and the whole debacle surrounding it then in short it had a very buggy launch and is now no longer being actively developed by SoE in favor of EQ II/EQ Next. Here's hoping they get it right with EQ Next (snowballs chance in hell but yea).
Skipping right to the end and posting a reply that I'm sure was done a half a dozen times already. OP described Darkfall, only with more players.
But wait, why doesn't DF have more players? Perhaps because its design caters to a small niche of players?
There are massive MMO's out there, and even DF has had battles of several hundred or more, seriously, what more can one ask for?
Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
No I betaed and played Vanguard and I did enjoy it but quit due to the bugs and when I next came back to it after SOE took over it was essentially a single player experience although I did play with my guild but the dungeons were not so camped and I did not notice the way they did it since it was not an issue in a scarcely populated game. I loved Vanguard but it was sadly underpopulated so that worked against it.
That could work if they designed it that way but avoid Everquest design at all costs and even then we had up to about 2000 players on the servers from when they had the population up at one time. Or am I mistaking it for some other game.I recall people saying the heavily populated servers like mine Bertoxxulous was hosting 2000 simultaneously.
Of course you could go adventure outside but if you wanted the loot in the dungeon you would have to queue and wait. I did that in every dungeon from HPH, Solusek all the way to Guk
Darkfall doesn't have more players than it does because while its semi-sandbox it fell far short of its original aims in far too many respects to keep more of its supporters around. I'm sure you've read about some of the early dev claims regarding Darkfall and what was inevitably released. While playable and in some ways innovative it was definitely not all that had been purported.
Yea, you're correct that originally a populated EQ server had around 2000 players but in relation to Vanguards size 2000 players do not adequately distribute themselves enough. It faced the problem that heavily quest based games do as well in that you need to find people on the same step/quest as you are to progress or have a static group to roll with (which is very hard to find let alone always be around for).
Coincidentally, Bertoxxulous was my first server in EQ as well so maybe we saw each other way back when if you played there during Classic and Kunark.
Darkfall is also FFA PvP game and that is another factor that deters many from trying it. I for one won't play it for that reason even if I might enjoy the Everquest atmosphere and everything that goes with that design I will not play a FFA PvP game and I am certain there are others like me but games like that cater to a taste and crowd and it is doing well is it not ?
Yes I probably know you I started in April 1999 and played there till we moved to 7th hammer. My wizard was called syakila.
Don't know of any FFA PvP games that are doing exceptionally well at the moment. Darkfall certainly isn't! It sold itself as a spiritual successor to UO and just wasn't even close. The skill system with no skill cap was probably the biggest impracticality and what really hinders the games fun/accessibility. Technically it allows for a player to take any skill they want without penalty and therefore build the character "their way" but what ends up happening is to compete you'll need to pick up most all of the "good skills" and end up like everyone else. Which some would argue is perfect for PvP since essentially everyone will be on equal terms but only after a massive grind!
Was troll warrior Grugg back on EQ and while I don't remember your wizard it has been a very long time ;D.
Aren't YOU bored with playground MMOs?
I sure am!
I want the online games to be online worlds but the devs are too lazy to do that.
Devs are not lazy, they just look at the market and see what is popular cause they really want to earn money for food/rent/house/clothes etc.
Even if we take out WoW, theme park MMOs do way better than sandbox ones; LOTRO,Aion etc.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Indeed it is common knowledge that LotRO and Aion both went F2P with a quickness. Certainly shows how amazingly popular these games are.
Thaks i am so sick and tired of the new MMO's i go out and spend all this money on new games hopeing to find i game close to what EQ made me feel like .
I have played Vanguard and loved it for awile but the only game that kept me hooked for a long long time is EQ. I am gonna try the progression server but sadly i am also buying rift as it has a sence of EQ ness with the rift system but it has alot of Quest bases blah as well so i will juggle the time between both.
Here i am hopeing and praying that they get EQ Next right they had EQ2 done really well in the begining minus all the bugs and the end raid bosses were epic and they felt epic when you finished i trust SoE and they have the best for Content wize so i hope i will be hooked with EQ next.
And if the devs aren't lazy how come that TB, VG, AoC and WAR plus scores more failed?
I tell you what the devs ARE lazy or we would right now be be playing the amazing and fun state of the art MMORPG with a playerbase of 20 million or more.
I know! So popular that LoTRO is earning how much for Turbine again?
LoTRO went F2P cause DDO went F2P before and made 300% profit for Turbine.
Yeah, and I'm sure LoTRO profits are smaller than all these 'hugely popular sandbox games'! /sarcasm
I have nothing against sandbox games, but the current market is saying 'we want themepark'.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
They haven't made a proper sand box game since Eve and for some of us its just not the sand box for us. Other then that they just do not make sand box games in favor of making continually fail theme parks. I've played both LotRO and DDO just to give them a chance and while not horrible they are pretty much more of the same. DDO's reliance on bombarding me with in game sales was a turn off as well. Played LotRO before it went F2P but expect its very similar to DDO having given Turbine multiple chances.
Basically the current market has never seen a sand box game because the vast majority (90-95% is my guess) haven't played UO or Eve. Ryzom and Darkfall both do not count either. I've played both and they aren't very sand box. Darkfall hardly at all, Ryzom you can argue it but way too much digging.
I'm guessing you've never heard of Minecraft nor about its success as well when you said essentially the market doesn't want sand box games!