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Entropia Universe and their so-called Support
casmoga
Member Posts: 29
I am having a real hard time (almost 2 weeks) trying to get any kind of assistance from MindArk (Planet Calypso) Support after having dropped 100M Mind Essence (worth $1500 USD) on the ground by mistake while dropping a lot of 100 Mind Essence stacks (each worth $0.0015 USD).
The 100M stack disappeared or was picked up by someone else almost immediately, but nobody wanted to admit taking it and some Players were claiming that dropped items sometimes disappear ("MindArk" takes them), so I've filed a "Missing or Lost" Support Case with Planet Calypso (MindArk) Support.
After several messages exchanged back-and-forth, their final reply was:
Every time you drop an item you receive a warning that advise you that any item that you drop can be picked up by any other colonist, and after you drop an item you get a confirmation message in the main Chat window that informs you which item you had dropped and the quantity.
Unfortunately the 100M Mind Essence were picked up by another participant on 2011-01-12 at 16:15:53, apart from this we can not provide you more information, as it is clearly stated in the support section, information about other accounts than your own will not be published or discussed.
Then I read their FAQ and found an article about "Scam Prevention Policy" where they suggested to go to the Police. So, I did this and have filed an official Police report about what happened to me in "Entropia Universe". But, from what the Policeman said, chances of me ever seeing my virtual items or the money I put in that game are next to zero, because there were no "movable objects" involved (it is all "virtual").
Since I've dropped the 100M Mind Essence by mistake, I began looking at the Game User Interface closer and found a complete chain of flaws which (combined) assisted in creating this situation, so I've submitted another Support case with MindArk to explain the situation in more detail. Here is the contents of my initial "Bug Report" to their Support Team:
When you are dropping stackable items, the warning dialog only shows WHAT you are dropping, but not HOW MUCH you are dropping.
Because of that and the fact that you are shortening the quantity display on stacked items to show 100M instead of 100.000.000, it is possible to drop a 100M stack instead of a 100 stack by mistake, without even noticing it.
If you are dropping a lot of 100 stack items (worth 1 PEC each) and there are people standing near you and picking these items up fast, it can happen very easily that by the time you realize what you have done, the stack is already gone - picked up by someone else. As it happened to me.
If the item has a high value (like 10K PEDs at TT or 15K PEDs market value like it was the case with ME I dropped), some people will just play dumb and keep them, or start claiming that items dropped on the ground sometimes dissapear by themselves.
When it is an item worth over $1.000 USD at TT, it makes MA look like a thief if these rumors spread.
After I dropped my 100M ME stack (see my Support Case #15043-12680), nobody wanted to admit they took it. And a lot of people were claiming that items dropped on the floor sometimes just disapear. Especially after the reaction of all the people around, I started to believe them and wanted to quit the game. Because I don't want to play a game written by thieves and protecting thieves. No sincere person wants that. And I believe that most people who are placing money into your game (like me) want to feel secure with their REAL MONEY in here, which is currently NOT the case.
If you check my support case #15043-12680, where I dropped a 100M stack by mistake after having dropped a lot of 100 stacks, combined with what I just stated here, you might start to understand the scope of the problem.
Also think about the impact someone with a lot of items he stole can have on the economy in your game.
I know you can continue playing ignorant and just rubbing peoples noses that they made a mistake, but it is as much your fault as it is theirs. And after talking in public about my problem, a lot of people had a chat with me and told me they have had similar problems in the past but you did NOTHING about them.
This does not show a good light on your company and is really damaging your reputation, which is already hurt by the fact that sweat prices have dropped to the value where it is just not worth wasting time sweating and sweat was a way for some players to try and get some of their investment in hunting and mining back.
Trading should ONLY be done through the Trade window or the Auctions. Nobody is trading by dropping items on the floor. If someone drops items on the floor, they are doing it for other reasons. If someone wants to give away their stuff, they can always do it through Trade. Having a little chat with someone who takes your stuff for free is also a good way to make friends in here. The easiest thing you could do, for starters, would be to simply DISABLE the "drop items" feature until you have a better implementation.
All the people I talked to, who have already been burned by the flaws in your "drop items" feature, are afraid to use it anyway. Only those who do not understand what could happen (like I didn't) will use it and you should do what ever you can to protect them - as they are your customers and think that they are in a safe environment.
Please do NOT respond to this with a standard "You should not drop items" answer, because this does not help. I know now to not drop items as long as your implementation is as it it now, but there are still A LOT of people who don't know and this problem has been around since you released the game.
I really like your game and what you did with vehicles and the graphics, but since this is a REAL CASH ECONOMY you also need to protect the investment of people placing their money in here.
Please think about it. Thank you.
I think you should also change the way stackable items are displayed. It was a really bad idea to shorten the quantity number. Now, icon for 100M something looks just like the one for 100 something with a tiny M behind 100, but it is ONE MILLION TIMES MORE worth.When you are dropping stackable items, the warning dialog only shows WHAT you are dropping, but not HOW MUCH you are dropping.
Also, when dropped stackable items always look the same, regardless of the amount. A 100M ME stack looks exactly like a 100 ME stack when on the ground. And if you dropped a lot of them, it takes time to figure out which has what size. How can 100 million of something look the same as one? This is very misleading.
I think in the case of icons, you should either display the full number without reducing if by using "k" or "M" - or ... you should have different icons for quantities above 1.000 and again different for quantities above 1.000.000 - and the difference should be enough to easily distinguish a 100 stack form a 100K or a 100M stack.
I also think it should be visible WHO is dropping something or picking something up, using animations. So people would see who is dropping items and who ever picks an item up everyone else would see it. Then it would not be possible that someone just picks a 100M ME stacks but nobody knows anything about it.
It would also be a good idea to not allow the quantity number blend with the background image to make it easier to read. For example, by drawing a black filled square behind the while number, to cover up the complete quantity number background. Maybe even use a different background color depending on the quantity. For example black for amounts below 1k, dark blue for up to 1M and dark red for 1M and above.
That's just a suggestion. I hope your designers can come up with something. But the way things are now, it is very misleading and when combined with trading or the "drop item" feature as it is now, it is easy to make a mistake and lose a lot. With only a few minor changes in your game interface, things like that can easily be avoided.
Their initial reply looked promising:
Thank you for taking the time to write your thorough comments and thoughts about your experience with the "drop item" system. I will forward them for evaluation and necessary action. We will update this support case as soon as possible.
I thought things were finally going the right way, so I've continued talking to other participants in the game and providing their Support with more information and ideas to avoid these issues happening again. But several days later, I've received another reply from their Support, now with this text:
I understand your perspective, but we have communicated all that can be said on this issue in your previous cases. You are responsible for your actions on Planet Calypso. For further information concerning these matters, please see our Terms of Use:
http://legal.entropiauniverse.com/legal/terms-of-use.xml
After this and several other messages being exchanged back-and-forth, their final reply on this case was:
The feature of the system that allowed you to drop the item was working as intended, and the reason that I have forwarded your information for consideration, is to try to encourage participants to reflect more over what they are dropping on the ground. This will however not in any way affect the fact that every participant of Planet Calypso are required to take responsibility for their actions.
Yes, I was dumb to have deposited that kind of money into their game in the first place. And yes, I should have been more careful with my stuff and not start dropping small amounts of Mind Essence on the ground. But I would have expected more understanding from their "Support" and some kind of help or assistance. But all they cared about was to rub my nose into their "ToS" and push all responsibility away from them.
Is this a normal way to communicate with a customer who has just lost item(s) worth over $1500 USD by a mistake, for which their badly designed games User Interface was partially responsible?
Comments
I had a similar issue, only with 3 skill chips a couple of months ago...
Still isn't resolved
Sick of playing Entropia Universe? Want to quit, but don't want your hard earned money to vanish? Give your items to ME :-)
I'm sorry, but I just HAD to post in this topic.
Just.... LOL. Wow. The nerve of some people. I don't even play EU (but I've dabbled) and I think this is one of the most ridiculous things. Yes, you should be mad but you're like one of those people that lose money in the casino and expect the employees to help you out. I work security in one and let me tell you... the nerve of you people.
If you leave your money in a machine and walk away, don't be surprised when it's gone. You dropped items, they're gone. LOL @ you for expecting someone to fess up. Even worse, is you wanted there to be a system that tells you who's picking up what. As if that person would give it back to you.
Just... wow. If anything, all these naysayers and whiners really make me want to try the game again.
Sick of playing Entropia Universe? Want to quit, but don't want your hard earned money to vanish? Give your items to ME :-)
1) According to MindArk PE AB, Entropia Universe is "The first VIRTUAL UNIVERSE with a REAL CASH ECONOMY". It is NOT just "a game". And as such, it SHOULD have a LEGAL SYSTEM inside their VIRTUAL UNIVERSE similar to the one we have in the REAL WORLD.
2) When looking for Business Partners, MindArk explicitly states that "there is no acceptance for concepts and content of gambling, a pornographic nature or any other concept that MindArk deems inappropriate or that is illegal." and after talking to a number of participants in their "VIRTUAL WORLD", it is clear that MindArk does NOT see their "VIRTUAL WORLD" as a Casino and does NOT want to be associated with Gambling in any way.
3) Since MindArk is NOT a Casino and they are taking care of REAL MONEY from participants who deposit into their Virtual World, it should be in MindArk's own interest to protect that MONEY from getting "lost" or "changing hands" by mistake. Their current implementation does NOT warrant that (it even assisted in making the mistake) and their Support is NOT willing to do ANYTHING in case it happens (even though they have all the LOGs and the POWER to correct the mistake).
"A fool and his money are soon parted."
You sir are a FOOL. Why you would dump that kind of RL money into this stupid game is mind boggling.
You got exactly what you deserved. Why were you even throwing this stuff on the ground in the first place if it was so valuble?
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
If you read the text above (thread starter), you would have seen that I was dropping stuff worth $0.0015 USD on the ground (15% of 1 cent worth) and I don't consider that to be "valuable". You would also have seen that the only difference between a stack of 100 Mind Essence (worth $0.0015 USD) and a stack of 100 Million Mind Essence (worth $1500 USD) in "Entropia Universe" was a small "M" behind a small number "100" in the top-left corner. Here is a Screenshot of me dropping 1.0k Mind Essence. If you replace the "." with a "0" and the "k" with an "M", you might get the idea how a 100M stack looks like:
http://www.casmoga.com/me2.png
And here is a screenshot of me dropping 100 Mind Essence, with a lot of other 100 Mind Essence stacks in the inventory:
http://www.casmoga.com/me6.png
If you put an "M" behind one of these "100" stacks and start dragging them out of your inventory one-by-one at a relatively fast pace, then split another stack once all "100" stacks are out and repeat the process a dozen times, you might get the idea how a 100M stack could have ended up on the ground.
Again, why? Nothing in that write up explains why YOU would CHOOSE to engage in an activity that could potentially lead to accidently dropping a full stack.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
You spent 1500 bucks on a video game?
My gaming blog
Hmm... well if it was me I would have made damn sure I wasn't dropping $1500 before hitting the check mark.
You really have no one to blame but yourself.
One time I accidentally left my wallet sitting on the counter at a grocery store. After I realized what had happened I went back to the grocery store and asked if anyone had seen the wallet, no one had. I did not blame the grocery store for my lost wallet or file a police report against the grocery store for letting me leave my wallet there.
That's exactly what you're doing though. Seriously, stop complaining, learn from your mistake, move on with your life.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It's a long story. A short version would be that I would never have expected someone from the group which took the 100M stack to behave like they did after I accidentally dropped the stack. I was 100% sure that even if I would drop the wrong stack by accident, anyone who would pick it up would also be honest enough to return it. Now I see how badly I have misjudged the situation and possible consequences. Would I have known that THIS could happen, I would not even consider using the "drop item" feature.
There's a big difference between protecting a player from bugs, exploits, or scams and protecting them from their own mistakes. You were not the victim of a big, scam, or exploit. You dropped the money, you need to live with the consequences of that action.
Sheesh.
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."
It is interesting to see how many people persist in looking for bad examples and stating it is "the same thing" when it is not even remotely similar. I did NOT leave the 100M stack and left. I dropped it and then it vanished, practically before my eye, only 1 or 2 seconds later. I've asked in the group if anyone had picked it up, but nobody wanted to admit taking it and most of them were just laughing at me, while a few said that dropped items simply disappear in this game.
Lots of typing, but not actually saying anything. Why?
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
I just lost $1500 USD worth of item(s) in that game because of (A) bad User Interface design (which I, as a software developer would file under a BUG), and (B) complete absence of morality in the game (which I attribute to the behavior of game creators and their Support in the past).
while i understand you are pissed.... if i had a wallet i accidentally left on a park bench, then realised it, came back and saw it's no longer there, i wouldn't really go on to complain to the park administration...
And I fail to see how leaving a wallet on a park bench and going away is in any way similar to what happened to me in the game. Before you start making up "comparisons", please take the time to read the whole thread and think about it, so I don't have to repeat the same statements over and over again. Thank you.
Yes, I did because (A) after how people were behaving, I was so upset at everyone that I wanted to QUIT and (B) if I QUIT, I did not want the rest of my stuff to be wasted.
I thought the person I entrusted my stuff with would continue "working for the cause" if I left. We (me, him and a few other people in the game) were trying to help newcomers by organizing them and have raised "sweat" prices by over 100% in a few days, so new players would have an easier start in the game.
But as it came out, I trusted the wrong guy and he started selling all my stuff way below market value only a few hours after he got his hands on them.
I know now that I should have just logged off and returned after "cooling down" and under normal circumstances I would not have given my stuff to someone else (I have been in-and-out of this game since 2005), but I was so furious at people whom I wanted to help that I just wanted to run away and never return. After I cooled down a bit and got some hope that MindArk Support would solve the problem and return my items (as some have suggested they might - because it was a mistake and it is a valuable item), I've tried getting in touch with the person who had the rest of my stuff, but realized soon that he was no better than the guy who picked up my 100M ME and those who were making fun of me.
"Sweat" and "Mind Essence" prices are now lower than ever, because those who got their hands on my stuff were underselling it and have neutralized all my efforts within just a few days.
Btw ... I would already have deleted my Entropia Universe account by now if I hadn't filed an official Police Report two weeks ago (following MindArk's suggestions in their FAQ).
You are way too trustful man... People are generally selfish and if they could take something that is not theirs and get away with it, they will. Wish it was not like that but unfourtunately it is.
Games like this, and Eve, really show the true nature of people as there are few consequences for being a liar, cheat, thief etc. In real life, there are consequences.
If for example in RL someone found your lost wallet and preceded to spend the money, IF he was caught then he would be charged. Atleast that is how it is in my country.
My gaming blog
As much as I understand your "droped by mistake" situation, I dont see why MindArk should resolve your problem, you droped it, you lost it; it's your fault, you can't ask a game developer to fix your own mistake. It's not that the item disapeared from your inventory, you droped it.
Again I feel sorry for what happened to you and hope they give your item back, but In my opinion, the problem is having virtual items that cost so much money, thats why I stoped playing Entropia Universe.
I dont agree. If you would have dropped your wallet in RL and the police knew who took it, then they would return it to you.
Problem is that in virtual items there are few laws so the devs dont give a shit.
My gaming blog
i played the game (virtual world) a long time ago for a few months and have 102 euro on my acount.
they say you can deposit your in game balance to your real bank acount.
everytime when i want to deposit my the money i have in the game it gives a message it will be send to my bank acount but i they never give it back i tried it 100s of times and sended them loads of mails and i am also not getting any response on those.
they probaly noticed i stopped playing and just wont give my money back.
entropia universe can be a fun game but dont expect to see any of your money back you put in it.
No it is not the same thing, anything in game is regulated by how the company you have bought the items from, it is the same as if you bought those facebook credits to play roulette and then wanted money cause you lost them or ou gave them to one of your friends by mistake your original purchase was of the credits and then on it is subject to the terms of usability by the company.
It is no longer treated the same as IRL money no matter how hard you try, you have purchased a service that gave you virtual items, you dropped those virtual items, a popup box came up warning you that said items could be picked up by anyone as soon as they are dropped on the floor, the OP accepted by pressing yes.
Now it is all nice and dandy that he claims it was a mistake, what if it wasnt a mistake, what if he dropped it on purpose and now is trying to get it back, the same way a casino wont give you your money back if you accidentally put a 100 dollar bill onto the slot machine, how do I know that it was accidental all I have is this person's word that it was accidental, there was a confirmation box that asks him to confirm he wants to forfeit rights to the property and he accepted it.
For all I know the OP made some deal with someone that entailed him dropping said items on the floor and he is trying to get it back, hence why rules must be the same for everyone otherwise tomorrow everyone has dropped items mistakenly on the floor, then someone is now complaining they made a deal which included picking something up from the floor and also want it back.
I dont agree with the model of entropia but I believe they are in the right here, it wasnt theft, it wasnt a scam, it was a player claiming without any proof that he mistakenly dropped some items on the floor and confirmed said drop when it clearly said anyone could pick it up. He then proceeds to give all of his items to another random player that then sells it all.
A few days ago, I've complained to the Support about the way they were handling my case and got an E-Mail where I should contact their Support Director. I've sent the E-Mail out immediately, but haven't received a reply by E-Mail yet. Instead, I've received another "solution suggestion" in my Support Case on their website, with the following statement:
It is regrettable that you did not comprehend the full extent of the warning that you accepted before dropping the items.
We do not dictate what items are traded or dropped to ground, but we encourage all our participants to be mindful and responsible for their actions, as stated in the ToU.
I thought the problem might have been one or two people working on Support who didn't want to bother looking at my case, but now it's clear that it is company policy to refuse any kind of help if someone "loses" valuable items in the game. And that means all my efforts to try and explain my specific situation just went out the window. It does not matter how or why it happened, the only thing they care about is that I've clicked OK on their warning dialog. It is also completely irrelevant that their warning text could have been interpreted two ways or that it did not contain any information about quantity being dropped. I've clicked OK - so it is my problem and does not concern them in any way.
I still can't believe what happened and it makes me furious to even think about it. But it looks like the only option I have left now is to write my $2500 USD off and QUIT the game. And that is exactly what I've done now. I've requested my Entropia Universe account to be deleted. Three hours later, I've received this reply:
It is regrettable that you no longer wish to participate in Entropia Universe.
Please note that once terminated, the account can not be activated again. Since the balance in your PED card is less than 1000 PED (minimum withdrawal limit), you will not be able to withdraw any funds. If you wish to participate in the Entropia Universe again, you will have to register a new account.
Are you positive that you want us to terminate your account?
Please note that once the account is terminated you won't be able to access the 'My Account' or 'My Support' sections of our website any more.
After confirming my request, I've received another reply (about an hour later), which stated that my account will be deleted as soon as possible and that I can close the case now. And that's the end of the story for me.
PS. It is really sad to see how a lot of people react when someone is asking for help, turning their words upside-down and making them feel stupid for even considering to ask for help. It's no surprise anyone who has had issues with companies like this decided to keep it to themselves.
You got what you deserve fair and square. I didnt read all the responses, but there is no way you and someone else cookec this up together, "uh I dropped this to some random guy give it back to me" hoping that they would just refund you. Since they can't take the item off the person who picked it up, because he hasnt broken any rules.
Sure maybe they should have extra warnings for valuable items or something.
That you went to the police was probably the funniest thing I ever heard, nothing illegal was done. You didnt drop your wallet on the street, you took out 1500 dollars and threw it out in a crowd of people, guess what, people pick it up.
My life is a game!
Support did the right thing. If you drop something on the ground, anyone can pick it up. The value of such items has no effect on this rule. The rules need to be consistent and they need to apply to everyone.
It doesn't appear that any bug occured. The items disappeared quickly because someone picked them up that quickly. Support already told you that somebody picked them up. The game functioned exactly as it is supposed to, just like when any items are dropped and picked up. The game demands personal responsibility from everyone, not just you. Why do you believe that you deserve special treatment?