Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Types of balance: the Poll.
Seival
Member Posts: 136
There are two main types of PvP an PvE balance in MMO:
Rock-paper-scissors (RPS). Each class is specialist in its own role (but some hybrids are still possible). Game is not fair with 1vs1 battles in PvP. Game will not allow group that consist of the same-class characters (or group that was formed not good enough) to succeed. Correct grouping and good teamwork are the key to success. To change your role you must start new character or at least pass through long and expancive respec procedure.
Equal possibilities (EP). Each class can perform any (or almost any) needed role. Game is good enough with 1vs1 battles in PvP. Group that consist of the same-class characters can succeed, but it will be more simple to fight in group with different classes included. Different roles are still needed, but only good teamwork is the key to success. You can change your role instantly (or at least in few seconds) without respec and/or regear.
So, the question is:
Comments
Rock-Paper-Scissors all the way. This is the only way to balance MMOs so they don't lose that first 'M'. If you balance so everyone is completely equal it destroys the interdependence between classes and you end up with a single player game with other people running around.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
Yes, but only if "EP" uses the outdated "holy trinity" model. Teamwork can be intresting not only in terms of imposed tank-healer-dps cooperation. In other words, your "role" can be "what are you currently doing" instead of "what kind of abilities my class has":
..."I'm mage and im trying to keep mobs out from the rest of the group - so, I'm "tank" right now."
..."I'm warrior and im trying to damage mobs that mage successfuly kites - so, I'm "dps" right now."
and so on...
Where's the option for balanced roles?
In other words, a healer who can also do damage but is better at healing, and using that healing helps him be balanced 1vs1 against a damage dealer who can't heal as well?
What about the thief/scout who can avoid damage to balance out the fact that he can't do as much damage vs damage dealers? Or can't heal as well vs. healers?
Once upon a time....
I think this is impossible. Blizzard tried to do something like this in WoW's PvP-balancing patches... and failed.
Fair 1v1 PvP is just impossible when roles restricted by characters' abilities and gear.
That's not really true. If player A has a 25% damage buff and player B has a 25% movement speed buff, both players are force-multiplying each other. Add to that the natural tendency for larger forces to be progressively more invincible, and you have very strong reasons to group.
Prevent players from being super-generic (lookin' at you, Darkfall) and suddenly each of these distinct buffs is a rarity, so you really want/need Player B in your group for the movement buff and Player A for the damage one.
Then you clean up the system by having diminishing returns for some buffs (the ones where it's not inherent), balance the other ones (+25% movespeed would be brokenly OP in most games as a perma-buff, heh), and letting players switch roles at a certain frequency (so when Joe, Bob, and Sam all already have the damage buff they don't ask Bill, who also has the buff, to go home -- instead Bill switches to the movement buff.)
We're not even technically talking about the first M, since that has a lot more to do with how many players are allowed to fight together at once or how many people simply share a large persistent world. We're talking about multiplayer and creating player dependencies on one another.
By simple nature of adding these interdependencies, I suppose you could call it an RPS system, but it's not quite the same.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't like Buffs done that way exactly because it forces players to be too much interdependent in a game world made and balanced for that purpose. I'd rather have grouping done by the simpler requirement of the challenge. That would allow for players to try to solo with no required dependencies. Otherwise, a player trying to go solo is simply road kill.
Buffs are fine if they are through potions or other general use means. The thing is, in my opinion, both grouping and solo play should be allowed and possible, just that grouping is safer and more likely to lead to success.
Once upon a time....
Equal Possibilities, but with very different directions.
For instance an elementalist will create wards which increases everyone's defenses, and then work with debuffs which dull weapons and similar to tank.
While a Monk/Paladin type class will take the damage but deal some of it back while healing themselves(to tank).
A Rogue is going to rely on dodge chances and foils(take damage but strike harder in response) when they fail to dodge.
A Ranger will rely on their pet blocking and snares to make the pet the only option for enemy to attack.
A Warrior will work with "native" gear defense, and their damage abilities.
Each class has different areas where they will tank better. For instance the Warrior will be just plain awesome at low maintance tanking and keeping agro. Where as the elementalist will excel against enemies where you can't control their agro at all. The Ranger against enemies where you just can't take damage without dieing near instantly. Rogue where the enemy does highish levels of damage and have high health to boot. Monk/Paladin in cases where the fight will last a really long time.
Also it won't prevent other classes from not being their specialty, but it'll hurt a bit more.
___________________
Though in the end I wouldn't go class based in the first place, so this type of balance matters less.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Not necessarily. EVE Online is one of the best examples of EP - your role depends on your skills and what ship you're flying at the moment - yet everything is definitely not "completely equal". Some of the smallest ships can be used very effectively against larger ships if you have the right fitting and skills. So you can definitely have EP without making everything homogenized and nerfed.
Observation: Your examples are not "equal possibilities" but RPS. Everyone has different strengths and weaknessess and have to rely on each other depending on situation. Rock-Paper-Scissors.
RPS balance matters in classless games aswell. The difference is that unlike balancing classes, you balance skills or skill combinations.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
An interesting take on the class-based vs skill-based argument. The balance is heavily dependent on the design of the content and the mechanics of the game. RPS affords more balance, but at the severe cost of greatly reducing who can play and when. In most MMOs with that design, the weight is on the individuals to 'know their role' and go through the preset motions to complete the task. RPS also results in a win/lose scenario for the team that often is hard to avoid. If your healer dies and the content is made for this blaanced group, then the whole group suffers losses or a wipe.
EP doesn't impose such restrictions, but requires better leadership. EP allows for more tactical gameplay and the ability to adjust tactics to react to the combat scenario. While it may seem less balanced than RPS, the ability to consistently maintain a viable group when suffering casualties makes for a much more balanced design because it is adaptive - it isn't as rigid or fragile as RPS.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Eve has plenty of RPS. Between factions, ships, ECM and fleet roles.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I think a combination of the two is best.
Too much rock-paper-scissors results in rock classes being able to stomp scissor classes with little to no skill, just by virtue of being the rock to their scissors... but some classes should have an advantage over others.
For example, a caster who specializes in DPS should have an advantage over a caster who specializes in debuffs in 1on1, as the DPS is meant to kill things quickly, while a debuffer is meant to help their allies kill things quickly, not kill things themselves... but it shouldn't be the case that the debuffer has no chance of survival once he encounters a DPS class, regardless of whether or not he is a better player.
Well the King doesn't cast a vote, and simply will state 'None' would be the best solution for pve and pvp.
Maybe give people equal access to all that there is, and let them have the best crack at it. There are too many factors that can't be formed with 1s and 0s for a real balance to ever be achieved, so why try in such a futile manner?
You're confusing roles with restrictions. Both types have roles - damage, defense, support and recon/intel are standard roles present in any combat scenario. In EVE, if your group wipes because your remote rep guy died, you're doing it wrong.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The balances you have listed are balance techniques that can be used to balance certian gameplay styles. However, balancing is deeper than this and there are many forms of balance. The common technique to balance is through the rock paper scissors spectrum. Especially for pvp gameplay. The ultimate question is how do you balance pve and pvp in the same game to keep the classes specified to their theme and role. Can it be done? I haven't seen it yet. Regardless there are various attemps either way. I will say I am not a fan of either balancing technique you have listed. Both are found in Wow for Pve and Pvp gameplay. There are other ways to balance other than these two sepctrums.
Looks like I am going to have to create a blog entry, to explain what class balance really is and the different types of class balance. I will say that there is not one way to balance your classes. Balance is dependent on your class design it self. So look for my blog titled "It's not a grind, its an Adventure" with the blog entry for class balance as "Class balance does not negate Diversity" or something along those lines. Look for it shortly.
Eve does do Rock-Paper-Scissors but it is with ship classes instead of character classes. Any good sandbox should be set up in this manner. Most do it with professions or specializations. Eve is kinda unique in the way they get it done with what ship class you take into a fight.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
You rely on tacklers to keep the target from warping away, don't you?
Cap denial, ECM and damping are the direct counter for logistics, isn't it?
You rely on logistics to bring your tank back up, do you? I mean, if you're active tanking in a fleet, you're doing it wrong!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Sure, but it's a balance developers have to strike:
Buffs too strong = Any advantage in numbers results in victory
Buffs too weak = A player impression that grouping is weak or unnecessary (even though grouping is a force-multiplier completely on its own, with zero buffing)
Personally MMORPG PVP fails (for me) prior to that balance though, due to the influences of progression and population. So that's why I seek PVP in genres where these factors are minimized or eliminated.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It sounds like you agree with Bren and I.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
["RPS" in PvE, but "EP" in PvP]
RPS is great for PvE due to the fact RPS promotes team-work, and personally I find playing with a party, guild that requires everyone to play their roles are just more fun.
EP for PvP depends on if the game offers solo or group PvP. If a game offers solo, 1v1 PvP, in most cases that will be the more popular one as many players tend to call out each other for 1v1 (eagle battles…). With that said, if I have dedicated so much time and effort with my say “Support” class (PvE), I would definitely still like the opportunity to stand on fair ground when PvP 1v1 against a “DPS” class (PvE).
Other:
Classes not balanced towards each other at all and most classes will fail alone and only succeed with cooperation.
Yes, I know that game balance is not just about balancing gameplay styles. But gameplay style balance is indeed what I told about in OP.
Im sure that RPS is not the best way to balance. It looks more like in-advance-planned barriers' system that will complicate both gameplay and development process.
And I'm sure that EP is the right way. There is exelent example of simplefied (but not boring) EP in one non-MMO game that has multiplayer. I'm talking about Crysis. I'll explain to those who did not play this game:
Player's character has special battlesuit that can operate in 4 different modes: armor, strength, speed and invisibility. Modes can be switched instantly.
In armor mode your suit's energy used as a shield and take damege before damage goes to health. So you can take more damage in this mode.
Strength mode allow you character to jump higher and perform devastating melee attacks and throw enviromental weapons (like barrels) with greater force, but energy no longer protect your health. In this mode you can make ambushes and take enemy by surprise in close combat (jump through a fence and one-shot enemy with melee attack in close combat instead of fireing at him, wich takes more time... or do something similar).
Speed mode allow your character to move much faster but you pay energy for each second of such movement, and energy will not protect your health. You can use this mode to "charge" an enemy and then fight in close combat. Or you can just run away using this mode.
Invisibility mode makes your character almost invisible (completely invisible if you chose right place to hide). Energy will not protect your health but you can lose energy in case of some actions (slow movement will couse slow energy melting, fast movement will couse fast energy melting and any shot will remove all energy). Zero energy shuts invisivility down. You can use this mode to make long range ambushes with sniper rifle.
EDIT: Simple but very intresting. Any player can switch a role in any time, adapting to the battlefield's situation. Example. You have submachine gun and your enemy has a sotgun. He managed to get in close combat where his shotgun can kill you fast in any suit mode. Your submachine gun is not your advantage is such situation. You can conter it by switching from armor to the strength and one shot enemy with melee attack before he uses the shotgun again.
Even your current weaponary is not a restriction (all depends on how you use your weapon). You can use sniper rifle as a shotgun (just place laser sight on it so the rifle will become effective in close combat) or use submachine gun as a sniper rifle (just place optical sight on submachine gun). You can customize weapons in seconds.
Crysis is very intresting to play both in single and multiplayer. One of the best examples of "easy to learn hard to master" game. Similar, but more complicated EP can be used in MMO.
I had to vote EP. I personally hate class systems and prefer classless ones. I want to be able to combine unlikely abilities together to do unique things. Why can't I use a lightning spell to do extra damage to a mob I shot with a steel shafted arrow? Because the game company says so. Why can't I hit someone with ice, then a fireball and create steam to burn and blind a mob? Cause the game company says so. Why can't a warrior learn spells? Because the creator doesn't want mixing with unforseen consequences.
Unknown is chaos, unknown is fun. too many games do things that are flat known and don't want to break the mold. RPS is a tried and true known way to balance a game. but it's not realistic. A mechanic doesn't just work on cars, he could learn to program computers. A CEO doesn't have to just be an exec, he can learn to design houses. Bill gates isn't just the owner of Microsoft, he's been a corporate spy, a software engineer, and does charity work.
I really don't like the static none interplay abilities have with each other. I can't see a RPS balance changing this at all so I have to go with EP. So what if the balance looks like it's going to shit. the balance is that everyone can do anything.
RPS all the way, i like the fact that i know i cant take this class on in pvp and then theres times i might sneak up to someone who i know i can take on and possibly win. as long there is a class that can beat some other class and theres no class that is that OP against everyone its all gravy for me. i like the aoc pvp, even though early on bear shaman seemed to have upper hand almost against all other classes except ranger or some cases, assassin.
RPS all the way. I can't believe how many people want EP, because when every class can perform every role, it reduces any kind of interdepency a MMO needs to be truly social and have a flourished community.
However, I do understand why people want EP. If they don't like the class role they are performing under RPS and they want to try something new, it would suck to restart after all that time working on the first character. This is why I think it is important that a MMORPG has skills instead of classes. Skills can be unlearned and you can teach yourself something new that you like and keep all your contacts and your character, whereas classes cannot be unlearned and you must create a new character in order to do something new. Sometimes you may really like your class and mastered everything in that class but you still don't want it to end at level 50, 60, 70, 80, or 85. You want it to continue, and having skill-based professions like in pre-CU Star Wars Galaxies allows someone to not have to worry about the "end game", because the change never truly "ends".
However, I do have to credit World of Warcraft on having a healthy balance of EP and RPS. Some classes are EP, such as druid or paladin, some classes are RPS, such as rogue, hunter, and mage, and others are a combination of both, such as priest, warrior, and shaman.
I guess in the end what a MMO should have is skills rather than classes and levels and have some classes be EP and some classes be RPS, and allow the person to choose.