I like the risk of being attacked and some shite stolen...or heaven forbid..winning the fight. Nowhere, however, was PvP ever expressed as the central mechanic of this game. I think many already know this and some can't accept the fact. If ..in the future it does add a very detailed PvP system as well as the extensive crafting and world building..then all the better.
Yeah, because we all know Darkfall did very well and even sent WoW scrambling for subs and forced them to release Cata.
What? I didn't see BarCrow mention Darkfall. What does your post have to do with anything.....
I like the risk of being attacked and some shite stolen...or heaven forbid..winning the fight. Nowhere, however, was PvP ever expressed as the central mechanic of this game. I think many already know this and some can't accept the fact. If ..in the future it does add a very detailed PvP system as well as the extensive crafting and world building..then all the better.
Yeah, because we all know Darkfall did very well and even sent WoW scrambling for subs and forced them to release Cata.
What? I didn't see BarCrow mention Darkfall. What does your post have to do with anything.....
What he said is exactly what Darkfall is.
This is the "if its not record breaking and the top in subs for 10 years its a failure" defense...By this guys calculations, Xyson is a failure, along with every mmorpg made aside from wow.
Aventurine bought a new corporate building, and a seperate animation studio....darkfall a failure? mabey by your standards thats a failure. They didnt pull the new building and studio out of their ass.....
The problem with DF was that it was a combat game, with little sand in the sandbox other than combat. Xyson appeard to be the opposite, filling the box with sand, then adding combat. However they appear to be severly restricting what you can do in the sandbox. Its like Xyson is a sandbox, patroled by lifeguards.
They need to eas up on these restrictions and protections, the whole fun of the ffa pvp in a sandbox is the community dealing with griefers themselfs, rather than standing theri with tear in their eyes requesting daddy developer to protect them.
And again, griefing and such is only possible if you refuse to take any precautions toward avoiding it, and in this game, with no spawns to camp, if you get griefed, your the one asking for it. You could so easily ghost sprint into a new zone (springing in ghost form doesnt consume energy) before the ganker can even see you or where you went...there griefing solved.
I think a better solution to safe zone carebears is to simply offer a few hours or a day of noob protection. Let them get oriented, find a far away spot where no one will bother them, build up defenses, and then be on the same playing field as everyone else. Because thats what the pve crowd wants....to be left alone in peace, far away from other people, like an offline solo game...Once the map opens up, theyll be able to do this, without huring those who want socialization and the same pvp rulset for everyone.
This is the "if its not record breaking and the top in subs for 10 years its a failure" defense...By this guys calculations, Xyson is a failure, along with every mmorpg made aside from wow.
I wasn't aware that you knew who I was. I'm actually a long time EVE and Wurm player, who started with UO way back when and has never been able to stomach WoW past level 35, despite trying several times.
I am a full hardcore PVPer. FFA doesn't work, not matter how much people want to believe it does. Systems like EVE are much better, contested territory with plenty of safe zones to breath easy. It works on Wild in Wurm, because it has such a large land base compared to it's player base and you can basically go hide. Which is what you have to do if you start there as a newbie.
Failure is measured how well the company survives off their game. Adventurine is not doing well at all and hasn't been for about a year now. If you don't believe that, you're just fooling yourself or you are just clueless. I'm pretty sure that's as close to Failure as you can get w/o closing the doors. Where as OneTooFree AB is doing fairly well, I would consider them a minor success.
If theory worked in real or virtual life, the Soviet Union would be ruling the world. Marxism is almost perfect in theory, yet fails miserably in real life. Just as FFA where players govern griefers themselves, might sound good to some people in theory, but fails miserably when implemented in a game.
Even thinking either would work when implemented is absoutely absurd and show off one's complete ignorance to game design or poltiics.
There is really no debate. FFA PVP doesn't work, period. End of story. Very few people want to babysit newbies all day, where as there are alot of losers out there who want to gank them into oblivion. Implement it and you might as well start figuring out what you're going to do server hardware in a couple months to a year.
again, let the game launch when these problems arise we can discuss them with out just breathing hot air.
Im curious why the developers are wasting valuable time discussing and debating pvp rule sets .... they should be steamrolling the code out getting the rest of the map and tribal war out.
open world pvp wont be much of an issue with a map larger than darkfalls, and tibal warfare to distract bored pvpers.
I think a lot of these issues go away after that, however safe zones will be abused and will cause more grief than not having them.
They should focus on the game, not protecting pve'ers in a sandbox game. The sooner they learn how easy it is (and fun) to cope with a ffa full loot game, the quicker they learn to enjoy it. Part of this stigma agaisnt the ffa full loot system are tales from darkfalls launch, a game whos pvp system has been over dramatized and exaggerated far beyond what it really is. All it does is make you think before you act, keeps you aware of your surroundings, and adds a complex layer to the game. You can still realx and take it easy in such a situation, you just need to find the right spot to do so.
You have to act diffrently in these types of game, thats all there is too it, and it doesnt take long to figure it all out. You see the people who are going to be successful at it, pve'ing naked, storing all goods they dont immediately need, stopping in cover and taking a quick look around before darting towards the junk pile....and one thing that bothers me the most about this game...not standing there confused and helpless when atacked, i cant tell you how many times ive been killed by a pve'er who simply fought back (im talking about no lag times in game, in high lag you really cant pvp anyway) Most people see that they are under attack and freeze up, not realizing that pvpers are naked and usualy sporting junk weapons, and easy to kill tbh. Even for a crafting specific character. And how hard is it to find a friend with a combat character to watch over you?
CCP bought out another company a couple years ago and is currently working on 2 more games. They have never seen a decrease in subscriptions in the 7-8yrs it's been out. They have graphs of their subscriptions and it's a pretty clear positive exponential curve.
Adventurine is rolling out new things almost every week to try and desperately attract new players and attract their old players back. The game is suffering a slow and painful death.
I'm pretty sure safe zones work.
The problem with DF was not that it was a "combat game" (even though I agree that it is one of it's problems), it's the fact that when you log in you're constantly ganked repeatedly.
I understand that you have some idea of this great Utopia of FFA PVP, but no matter how it's done, if it's true FFA it doesn't work. Pushing this on the Xyson team, is pushing Xyson towards failure.
CCP bought out another company a couple years ago and is currently working on 2 more games. They have never seen a decrease in subscriptions in the 7-8yrs it's been out. They have graphs of their subscriptions and it's a pretty clear positive exponential curve.
Adventurine is rolling out new things almost every week to try and desperately attract new players and attract their old players back. The game is suffering a slow and painful death.
I'm pretty sure safe zones work.
The problem with DF was not that it was a "combat game" (even though I agree that it is one of it's problems), it's the fact that when you log in you're constantly ganked repeatedly.
I understand that you have some idea of this great Utopia of FFA PVP, but no matter how it's done, if it's true FFA it doesn't work. Pushing this on the Xyson team, is pushing Xyson towards failure.
Also, much of the PvP drama in Eve actually comes from the "meta" game and has little to do with shooting someone's pixels. It comes from corporate espionnage, betrayls, stealing etc.
This is the stuff non-Eve players (like me) hear about all the time. That's the type of word-of-mouth you can't buy. If all we heard about Eve is about getting ganked or podded, their subscriptions would be more in the Darkfall range.
Never criticize a "sandbox" game on mmorpg.com. You will be drowned in a wave of kool-aid drinking fanbois.
CCP bought out another company a couple years ago and is currently working on 2 more games. They have never seen a decrease in subscriptions in the 7-8yrs it's been out. They have graphs of their subscriptions and it's a pretty clear positive exponential curve.
Adventurine is rolling out new things almost every week to try and desperately attract new players and attract their old players back. The game is suffering a slow and painful death.
I'm pretty sure safe zones work.
The problem with DF was not that it was a "combat game" (even though I agree that it is one of it's problems), it's the fact that when you log in you're constantly ganked repeatedly.
I understand that you have some idea of this great Utopia of FFA PVP, but no matter how it's done, if it's true FFA it doesn't work. Pushing this on the Xyson team, is pushing Xyson towards failure.
Not sure what EvE has to do with any of this...
However when the parent company of darkfall buys a new corporate headquarters, and a new animation studio, thats not a sign of a failure. Your logic is, a game has less subs than whatever arbitrary game you choose, and you didnt like it, therefore it was an epic failure. While at the same time the company that make that very failure can afford a new HQ and a new development studio, as well as put time and effort into "desperatly attracting new players" by pumping out content.
You say it was DF's pvp that lead it to fail (in your eyes), however it was in fact this pvp that has allowed DF to survive for so long. Its why people play DF, not because they like the crafting or exploring or whatever, the pvp is the draw, and always has been.
That very same draw lead to a good portion of Xysons population. It seems NG is going to chase these players away for some reason, like they dont need the subs or something.
Why would you even play Xyson if you didnt like the thought of ffa full loot pvp? Take it out and make it a damn real life sim game if thats the crowd they want to cater too.
There are very few full loot pvp sandboxes, while many pve centric, crafter centric games...like vanguard...which was a pretty big failure....it was their focus on crafting and pve at the expense of pvp that lead to this the same will happen to Xyson if it chooses to nerf the pvp in favor of pve...all of a sudden its not very unqiue other than the terraforming (which gets old VERY fast)....see i can do it too.
CCP bought out another company a couple years ago and is currently working on 2 more games. They have never seen a decrease in subscriptions in the 7-8yrs it's been out. They have graphs of their subscriptions and it's a pretty clear positive exponential curve.
Adventurine is rolling out new things almost every week to try and desperately attract new players and attract their old players back. The game is suffering a slow and painful death.
I'm pretty sure safe zones work.
The problem with DF was not that it was a "combat game" (even though I agree that it is one of it's problems), it's the fact that when you log in you're constantly ganked repeatedly.
I understand that you have some idea of this great Utopia of FFA PVP, but no matter how it's done, if it's true FFA it doesn't work. Pushing this on the Xyson team, is pushing Xyson towards failure.
Also, much of the PvP drama in Eve actually comes from the "meta" game and has little to do with shooting someone's pixels. It comes from corporate espionnage, betrayls, stealing etc.
This is the stuff non-Eve players (like me) hear about all the time. That's the type of word-of-mouth you can't buy. If all we heard about Eve is about getting ganked or podded, their subscriptions would be more in the Darkfall range.
That's because most of the populated space are Safe Zones and newbies don't get ganked or podded. When they attempt to enter space they have a popup that basically tells them that if they enter that system, they are going to get ganked.
The entire blue & green area (the center not the background) is safe zones.
Now, techinically you can be ganked in high sec, but a newbie is not going to be carrying enough goods to make it worth it. (see Hulkageddon in MMORPG.com news section for instance)
Those who chose to live in null sec space (FFA PVP zones / the entire red area), understand the risks.
However when the parent company of darkfall buys a new corporate headquarters, and a new animation studio, thats not a sign of a failure. Your logic is, a game has less subs than whatever arbitrary game you choose, and you didnt like it, therefore it was an epic failure. While at the same time the company that make that very failure can afford a new HQ and a new development studio, as well as put time and effort into "desperatly attracting new players" by pumping out content.
You're not even reading are you? Less subs than whatever arbitrary game I chose, when I already stated I play Wurm. A game that has less than 500 players at it's peak spread across 3 servers. (Which btw Xyson is heavily based around, check the old FAQs on Xyson's forum)
Adventurine has financial backing, most of which comes from the Greek government. Kind of the same reason Uwie Boll keeps making movies, yet all fail miserably. (If you dont' know what I'm talking about use google)
You say it was DF's pvp that lead it to fail (in your eyes), however it was in fact this pvp that has allowed DF to survive for so long. Its why people play DF, not because they like the crafting or exploring or whatever, the pvp is the draw, and always has been.
It's not in my eyes, it's the truth. Take a look at any forum, any community, and pretty much any reviewer, they all say the same thing.
While PVP being the reason it has been able to survive this long with a major lack of sandbox elements, it is also a double edged sword and is the reason the game has not continued to grow. If a game doesn't continue to grow, it simply loses subs. Even Wurm has continued to grow over the years.
That very same draw lead to a good portion of Xysons population. It seems NG is going to chase these players away for some reason, like they dont need the subs or something.
They understand that they don't need the wrong subs, so that they end up like Darkfall. You seem to be denying this for some reason. Please get your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting "LALALALALA"
A bad community can destroy a game. Again, we come back to Darkfall.
Why would you even play Xyson if you didnt like the thought of ffa full loot pvp? Take it out and make it a damn real life sim game if thats the crowd they want to cater too.
I don't play Darkfall. (I have) I would play Xyson for the same reason I play EVE and Wurm. There is no reason it has to be Full Loot, nor is there any reason it has to be FFA to have hardcore PVP. So long that there is corpse looting, there are penalties and land can be grabbed, PVP can be an exilerating experience and you don't end up like Darkfall.
There are very few full loot pvp sandboxes, while many pve centric, crafter centric games...like vanguard...which was a pretty big failure....it was their focus on crafting and pve at the expense of pvp that lead to this the same will happen to Xyson if it chooses to nerf the pvp in favor of pve...all of a sudden its not very unqiue other than the terraforming (which gets old VERY fast)....see i can do it too.
Vanguard and Pre-NGE SWG are the only 2 PVE Sandboxes I've ever heard of. But, that's beside the point.
You seem to just want to play Darkfall, so why don't you? It has everythign you're looking for. Terrible crafting, terrible PVE, and nothing but FFA PVP Full Loot Combat. Why are you even looking at other games, it's the perfect game for you.
(Note the irony in me questioning your game play preferences as you questioned mine)
However when the parent company of darkfall buys a new corporate headquarters, and a new animation studio, thats not a sign of a failure. Your logic is, a game has less subs than whatever arbitrary game you choose, and you didnt like it, therefore it was an epic failure. While at the same time the company that make that very failure can afford a new HQ and a new development studio, as well as put time and effort into "desperatly attracting new players" by pumping out content.
You're not even reading are you? Less subs than whatever arbitrary game I chose, when I already stated I play Wurm. A game that has less than 500 players at it's peak spread across 3 servers. (Which btw Xyson is heavily based around, check the old FAQs on Xyson's forum)
Adventurine has financial backing, most of which comes from the Greek government. Kind of the same reason Uwie Boll keeps making movies, yet all fail miserably. (If you dont' know what I'm talking about use google)
You say it was DF's pvp that lead it to fail (in your eyes), however it was in fact this pvp that has allowed DF to survive for so long. Its why people play DF, not because they like the crafting or exploring or whatever, the pvp is the draw, and always has been.
It's not in my eyes, it's the truth. Take a look at any forum, any community, and pretty much any reviewer, they all say the same thing.
While PVP being the reason it has been able to survive this long with a major lack of sandbox elements, it is also a double edged sword and is the reason the game has not continued to grow. If a game doesn't continue to grow, it simply loses subs. Even Wurm has continued to grow over the years.
That very same draw lead to a good portion of Xysons population. It seems NG is going to chase these players away for some reason, like they dont need the subs or something.
They understand that they don't need the wrong subs, so that they end up like Darkfall. You seem to be denying this for some reason. Please get your fingers out of your ears and stop shouting "LALALALALA"
A bad community can destroy a game. Again, we come back to Darkfall.
Why would you even play Xyson if you didnt like the thought of ffa full loot pvp? Take it out and make it a damn real life sim game if thats the crowd they want to cater too.
I don't play Darkfall. (I have) I would play Xyson for the same reason I play EVE and Wurm. There is no reason it has to be Full Loot, nor is there any reason it has to be FFA to have hardcore PVP. So long that there is corpse looting, there are penalties and land can be grabbed, PVP can be an exilerating experience and you don't end up like Darkfall.
There are very few full loot pvp sandboxes, while many pve centric, crafter centric games...like vanguard...which was a pretty big failure....it was their focus on crafting and pve at the expense of pvp that lead to this the same will happen to Xyson if it chooses to nerf the pvp in favor of pve...all of a sudden its not very unqiue other than the terraforming (which gets old VERY fast)....see i can do it too.
Vanguard and Pre-NGE SWG are the only 2 PVE Sandboxes I've ever heard of. But, that's beside the point.
You seem to just want to play Darkfall, so why don't you? It has everythign you're looking for. Terrible crafting, terrible PVE, and nothing but FFA PVP Full Loot Combat. Why are you even looking at other games, it's the perfect game for you.
(Note the irony in me questioning your game play preferences as you questioned mine)
No need to be snarky in your response. I very well may continue playing darkfall. however this game is suppose to offer more, with the same full loot pvp system that added so much complexity and entertainment to all aspects of the game.
People like you, fear the no rules pvp with full loot, i once did too, i avoided darkfall due to the horror stories. Took me about a week of playing to realize that the horror stories were from idiots, unable to adapt.
Its a learning curve, something an eve fan should enjoy. And this is diffrent than losing your spaceship, this game is far more like darkfall than it is like eve.
Xyson is drawing a large darkfall crowd, and despite the horror stories about that game you heard from its launch, its pvp has been over dramatized and exaggerated. Its wasnt some crazy gank fest. Just like in Xyson, those who were getting griefed refused to look at other options and adapt to the system. Its a learning curve, once you get over it all, its add so much to every aspect of the game. It keeps you on your toes even as a lowly resource hunter, it requires more planning, more relationships, more paitience, than games without full loot pvp with no rules and no safe aread ( no darkfalls towns were anything but safe despite tower defenses)
If more people stuck with it, and didnt fear the full loot pvp so much, they would see how much it really adds to the game experience. All it takes is a little getting use to.
The thing is, darkfall only had the combat, this game has more currently, thats the draw and thats why so many darkfall players are here now.
So i think you, and others, needs to get out of this mindset that a full loot pvp game with no safe zones (i dont care how well it worked in eve totally diffrent game) is some terrible and horrible thing. I use to be one of these people, i didnt think that it actually adds layers of complexity to a game...games without it feel empty and less thrilling. No other sytem makes things like crafting, exploring, or other pve activities so entertaining.
Also your probably finding out that the terrible and horrible ganker crowd in Xyson is just stealing your pants and moving on, pvpers dont have much intrest in runing your game unless you give them a reason too, however these types of griefers do exist, and are easily dealt with if its brough to the communities attention. Good pvpers love nothing more than to grief a griefer whos ruining others gameplay. Usually theyll do it untill he loggs off too.
Dont fear the full loot pvp with no safe zones, its really just been over dramatized, and was only a problem during darkfalls launch. In my time in darkfall i never once had an issue with losing too mmany things of value to contuniue playing, or had issues with a seriuous griefer....im not sure some people really understand how much an unsafe setting adds to the pve side of the game....its why theres so many darkfall players here, they know what it adds and its addicting once you get use to it and adapt.
Funny how many "brave" PKers cower and run under a system of PK with consequence, where they have to show personal accountability for their actions and can't hide among a zerg of like minded players.
Some PvP players will actually love this environment. A lot of other players will enjoy the danger that PvP players will represent when out exploring beyond the safe zones, with out it just being a mass FFA. The threat of danger and knowing that today might be the day that danger will manifest is a lot more exciting than going out knowing that an area is swarming with people who will find you in seconds to minutes and kill you.
Originally posted by fiontar Funny how many "brave" PKers cower and run under a system of PK with consequence, where they have to show personal accountability for their actions and can't hide among a zerg of like minded players. Some PvP players will actually love this environment. A lot of other players will enjoy the danger that PvP players will represent when out exploring beyond the safe zones, with out it just being a mass FFA. The threat of danger and knowing that today might be the day that danger will manifest is a lot more exciting than going out knowing that an area is swarming with people who will find you in seconds to minutes and kill you.
Yah, this is kinda how I see it. I don't mind being in a game that has 99 percent of the land as free for all, but it's like a horror movie: once you see the monster, it isn't as scary as the THOUGHT of the monster and nowhere near as interesting. So goes it with PvP - except replace monster with PKer.
Funny how many "brave" PKers cower and run under a system of PK with consequence, where they have to show personal accountability for their actions and can't hide among a zerg of like minded players.
Some PvP players will actually love this environment. A lot of other players will enjoy the danger that PvP players will represent when out exploring beyond the safe zones, with out it just being a mass FFA. The threat of danger and knowing that today might be the day that danger will manifest is a lot more exciting than going out knowing that an area is swarming with people who will find you in seconds to minutes and kill you.
Well first off all this bravdo around a Role Playing Game in of itself is funny and I think not a single co-worker or family member I know of wouldnt laugh out loud at the idea of someone trying to be a bad ass role player.
Having said that, if war is going to be part of a game, zergs MUST matter. Zerg control is a great deal of what war tactics and stradgey is all about.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Funny how many "brave" PKers cower and run under a system of PK with consequence, where they have to show personal accountability for their actions and can't hide among a zerg of like minded players.
Some PvP players will actually love this environment. A lot of other players will enjoy the danger that PvP players will represent when out exploring beyond the safe zones, with out it just being a mass FFA. The threat of danger and knowing that today might be the day that danger will manifest is a lot more exciting than going out knowing that an area is swarming with people who will find you in seconds to minutes and kill you.
The only reason you see it like that is just because Alignment is a forgotten aspect in MMO gaming. EVE still sorta has it and is pretty much the only one I know that has it.
You can PK all day long, but if you do it the wrong way, don't expect to enter high sec space. I wish Alignment had an effect in 0.0.
What I wonder about FFA PVP is where in civilized history it has existed. Wasn't in Greece, wasn't in Rome, wasn't in Fuedal Japan or Ancient China, hell it didn't even exist in tribal African or Native American cultures, and it doesn't exist anywhere today. Sure, you could kill people out in the wild and get away, but that's not what people mean by FFA PVP in MMO gaming.
It makes no sense, because it doesn't work. Players aren't going to govern themselves, they never have in any FFA system ever built, so they need mechanisms in place for this to happen, just as there were laws and rules in real life.
There are no "hordes" or "zergs" for consequences for newbie gankers. That's just rediculous wishful thinking. They just gank all day long w/o consequence, driving away any hope of new players.
Doesn't really matter. From what I'm reading, Xyson is dead already. They are just going to get a few Darkfall players and maybe a few crafters, but as far as an enjoyable sandbox there is no hope. I guess you can't expect much from a guy who already released a massive fail already.
I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
I'd hate to see another great sandboxgo down the drain like Ultima Online did with Trammel. You carebears just don't get it. We don't come into non FFA games and demand PVP. Why in the world do so many of you come into FFA PVP games demanding safety? It makes no sense. Get a clue. The sandbox is home to the PVP crowd.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
I'd hate to see another great sandboxgo down the drain like Ultima Online did with Trammel. You carebears just don't get it. We don't come into non FFA games and demand PVP. Why in the world do so many of you come into FFA PVP games demanding safety? It makes no sense. Get a clue. The sandbox is home to the PVP crowd.
Sorry friend, you're rewriting history.
Trammel didn't ruin anything. It was an option. No one closed down the FFA PvP world. And that, at the beginning of MMO history, is the lesson that is still true:
Most people when given the choice between FFA PvP and something else, will take that something else.
The figures I've heard were that 90% of the UO playerbase went to Trammel, and 10% stayed with FFA PvP. FFA PvP'ers only complain about Trammel because they lost sheep to gank.
The same dynamic seems to be playing out now with Xsyon.
Never criticize a "sandbox" game on mmorpg.com. You will be drowned in a wave of kool-aid drinking fanbois.
I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
I'd hate to see another great sandboxgo down the drain like Ultima Online did with Trammel. You carebears just don't get it. We don't come into non FFA games and demand PVP. Why in the world do so many of you come into FFA PVP games demanding safety? It makes no sense. Get a clue. The sandbox is home to the PVP crowd.
Sorry friend, you're rewriting history.
Trammel didn't ruin anything. It was an option. No one closed down the FFA PvP world. And that, at the beginning of MMO history, is the lesson that is still true:
Most people when given the choice between FFA PvP and something else, will take that something else.
The figures I've heard were that 90% of the UO playerbase went to Trammel, and 10% stayed with FFA PvP. FFA PvP'ers only complain about Trammel because they lost sheep to gank.
The same dynamic seems to be playing out now with Xsyon.
I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
I'd hate to see another great sandboxgo down the drain like Ultima Online did with Trammel. You carebears just don't get it. We don't come into non FFA games and demand PVP. Why in the world do so many of you come into FFA PVP games demanding safety? It makes no sense. Get a clue. The sandbox is home to the PVP crowd.
What YOU don't get is that Xsyon was never meant to be a FFA PVP centered game. So who is trying to change the game to fit their agenda? Sad truth your type of players fail to realize is, if FFA PVP games are in such demand by the general game playing public, why is it that the few full-loot, PVP FFA games out there are doing so poorly? MO or DF anyone?
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Trammel didn't ruin anything. It was an option. No one closed down the FFA PvP world. And that, at the beginning of MMO history, is the lesson that is still true:
Most people when given the choice between FFA PvP and something else, will take that something else.
The figures I've heard were that 90% of the UO playerbase went to Trammel, and 10% stayed with FFA PvP. FFA PvP'ers only complain about Trammel because they lost sheep to gank.
The same dynamic seems to be playing out now with Xsyon.
Well said, there is definately option for 2nd server with 0 rules/consequences on PvP, and i say let em have it.
My guesstimate that current server will be just fine, will have healthy population and dynamic game play.
Well said, there is definately option for 2nd server with 0 rules/consequences on PvP, and i say let em have it.
My guesstimate that current server will be just fine, will have healthy population and dynamic game play.
I'm slowly coming around to believe that the only thing that can safe Xsyon from morphing into Darkfall 2.0 now is a "Trammel" server. Let us "carebears" have a server where we can build up the world until tribal warfare is introduced.
When tribal warfare is ready let them introduce that both to the FFA PvP and the "Trammel" server.
I know, the boards would explode if they would introduce a non-FFA PvP server...
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I'm slowly coming around to believe that the only thing that can safe Xsyon from morphing into Darkfall 2.0 now is a "Trammel" server. Let us "carebears" have a server where we can build up the world until tribal warfare is introduced.
When tribal warfare is ready let them introduce that both to the FFA PvP and the "Trammel" server.
I know, the boards would explode if they would introduce a non-FFA PvP server...
Well, nobody really asked for PvE server, and Jordi himself has written on forums that PvE server is not even considered, just PvP server with diferent rules.
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What he said is exactly what Darkfall is.
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This is the "if its not record breaking and the top in subs for 10 years its a failure" defense...By this guys calculations, Xyson is a failure, along with every mmorpg made aside from wow.
Aventurine bought a new corporate building, and a seperate animation studio....darkfall a failure? mabey by your standards thats a failure. They didnt pull the new building and studio out of their ass.....
The problem with DF was that it was a combat game, with little sand in the sandbox other than combat. Xyson appeard to be the opposite, filling the box with sand, then adding combat. However they appear to be severly restricting what you can do in the sandbox. Its like Xyson is a sandbox, patroled by lifeguards.
They need to eas up on these restrictions and protections, the whole fun of the ffa pvp in a sandbox is the community dealing with griefers themselfs, rather than standing theri with tear in their eyes requesting daddy developer to protect them.
And again, griefing and such is only possible if you refuse to take any precautions toward avoiding it, and in this game, with no spawns to camp, if you get griefed, your the one asking for it. You could so easily ghost sprint into a new zone (springing in ghost form doesnt consume energy) before the ganker can even see you or where you went...there griefing solved.
I think a better solution to safe zone carebears is to simply offer a few hours or a day of noob protection. Let them get oriented, find a far away spot where no one will bother them, build up defenses, and then be on the same playing field as everyone else. Because thats what the pve crowd wants....to be left alone in peace, far away from other people, like an offline solo game...Once the map opens up, theyll be able to do this, without huring those who want socialization and the same pvp rulset for everyone.
again, let the game launch when these problems arise we can discuss them with out just breathing hot air.
I wasn't aware that you knew who I was. I'm actually a long time EVE and Wurm player, who started with UO way back when and has never been able to stomach WoW past level 35, despite trying several times.
I am a full hardcore PVPer. FFA doesn't work, not matter how much people want to believe it does. Systems like EVE are much better, contested territory with plenty of safe zones to breath easy. It works on Wild in Wurm, because it has such a large land base compared to it's player base and you can basically go hide. Which is what you have to do if you start there as a newbie.
Failure is measured how well the company survives off their game. Adventurine is not doing well at all and hasn't been for about a year now. If you don't believe that, you're just fooling yourself or you are just clueless. I'm pretty sure that's as close to Failure as you can get w/o closing the doors. Where as OneTooFree AB is doing fairly well, I would consider them a minor success.
If theory worked in real or virtual life, the Soviet Union would be ruling the world. Marxism is almost perfect in theory, yet fails miserably in real life. Just as FFA where players govern griefers themselves, might sound good to some people in theory, but fails miserably when implemented in a game.
Even thinking either would work when implemented is absoutely absurd and show off one's complete ignorance to game design or poltiics.
There is really no debate. FFA PVP doesn't work, period. End of story. Very few people want to babysit newbies all day, where as there are alot of losers out there who want to gank them into oblivion. Implement it and you might as well start figuring out what you're going to do server hardware in a couple months to a year.
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Im curious why the developers are wasting valuable time discussing and debating pvp rule sets .... they should be steamrolling the code out getting the rest of the map and tribal war out.
open world pvp wont be much of an issue with a map larger than darkfalls, and tibal warfare to distract bored pvpers.
I think a lot of these issues go away after that, however safe zones will be abused and will cause more grief than not having them.
They should focus on the game, not protecting pve'ers in a sandbox game. The sooner they learn how easy it is (and fun) to cope with a ffa full loot game, the quicker they learn to enjoy it. Part of this stigma agaisnt the ffa full loot system are tales from darkfalls launch, a game whos pvp system has been over dramatized and exaggerated far beyond what it really is. All it does is make you think before you act, keeps you aware of your surroundings, and adds a complex layer to the game. You can still realx and take it easy in such a situation, you just need to find the right spot to do so.
You have to act diffrently in these types of game, thats all there is too it, and it doesnt take long to figure it all out. You see the people who are going to be successful at it, pve'ing naked, storing all goods they dont immediately need, stopping in cover and taking a quick look around before darting towards the junk pile....and one thing that bothers me the most about this game...not standing there confused and helpless when atacked, i cant tell you how many times ive been killed by a pve'er who simply fought back (im talking about no lag times in game, in high lag you really cant pvp anyway) Most people see that they are under attack and freeze up, not realizing that pvpers are naked and usualy sporting junk weapons, and easy to kill tbh. Even for a crafting specific character. And how hard is it to find a friend with a combat character to watch over you?
SnailTrail:
CCP bought out another company a couple years ago and is currently working on 2 more games. They have never seen a decrease in subscriptions in the 7-8yrs it's been out. They have graphs of their subscriptions and it's a pretty clear positive exponential curve.
Adventurine is rolling out new things almost every week to try and desperately attract new players and attract their old players back. The game is suffering a slow and painful death.
I'm pretty sure safe zones work.
The problem with DF was not that it was a "combat game" (even though I agree that it is one of it's problems), it's the fact that when you log in you're constantly ganked repeatedly.
I understand that you have some idea of this great Utopia of FFA PVP, but no matter how it's done, if it's true FFA it doesn't work. Pushing this on the Xyson team, is pushing Xyson towards failure.
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Also, much of the PvP drama in Eve actually comes from the "meta" game and has little to do with shooting someone's pixels. It comes from corporate espionnage, betrayls, stealing etc.
This is the stuff non-Eve players (like me) hear about all the time. That's the type of word-of-mouth you can't buy. If all we heard about Eve is about getting ganked or podded, their subscriptions would be more in the Darkfall range.
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Not sure what EvE has to do with any of this...
However when the parent company of darkfall buys a new corporate headquarters, and a new animation studio, thats not a sign of a failure. Your logic is, a game has less subs than whatever arbitrary game you choose, and you didnt like it, therefore it was an epic failure. While at the same time the company that make that very failure can afford a new HQ and a new development studio, as well as put time and effort into "desperatly attracting new players" by pumping out content.
You say it was DF's pvp that lead it to fail (in your eyes), however it was in fact this pvp that has allowed DF to survive for so long. Its why people play DF, not because they like the crafting or exploring or whatever, the pvp is the draw, and always has been.
That very same draw lead to a good portion of Xysons population. It seems NG is going to chase these players away for some reason, like they dont need the subs or something.
Why would you even play Xyson if you didnt like the thought of ffa full loot pvp? Take it out and make it a damn real life sim game if thats the crowd they want to cater too.
There are very few full loot pvp sandboxes, while many pve centric, crafter centric games...like vanguard...which was a pretty big failure....it was their focus on crafting and pve at the expense of pvp that lead to this the same will happen to Xyson if it chooses to nerf the pvp in favor of pve...all of a sudden its not very unqiue other than the terraforming (which gets old VERY fast)....see i can do it too.
That's because most of the populated space are Safe Zones and newbies don't get ganked or podded. When they attempt to enter space they have a popup that basically tells them that if they enter that system, they are going to get ganked.
The entire blue & green area (the center not the background) is safe zones.
Now, techinically you can be ganked in high sec, but a newbie is not going to be carrying enough goods to make it worth it. (see Hulkageddon in MMORPG.com news section for instance)
Those who chose to live in null sec space (FFA PVP zones / the entire red area), understand the risks.
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No need to be snarky in your response. I very well may continue playing darkfall. however this game is suppose to offer more, with the same full loot pvp system that added so much complexity and entertainment to all aspects of the game.
People like you, fear the no rules pvp with full loot, i once did too, i avoided darkfall due to the horror stories. Took me about a week of playing to realize that the horror stories were from idiots, unable to adapt.
Its a learning curve, something an eve fan should enjoy. And this is diffrent than losing your spaceship, this game is far more like darkfall than it is like eve.
Xyson is drawing a large darkfall crowd, and despite the horror stories about that game you heard from its launch, its pvp has been over dramatized and exaggerated. Its wasnt some crazy gank fest. Just like in Xyson, those who were getting griefed refused to look at other options and adapt to the system. Its a learning curve, once you get over it all, its add so much to every aspect of the game. It keeps you on your toes even as a lowly resource hunter, it requires more planning, more relationships, more paitience, than games without full loot pvp with no rules and no safe aread ( no darkfalls towns were anything but safe despite tower defenses)
If more people stuck with it, and didnt fear the full loot pvp so much, they would see how much it really adds to the game experience. All it takes is a little getting use to.
The thing is, darkfall only had the combat, this game has more currently, thats the draw and thats why so many darkfall players are here now.
So i think you, and others, needs to get out of this mindset that a full loot pvp game with no safe zones (i dont care how well it worked in eve totally diffrent game) is some terrible and horrible thing. I use to be one of these people, i didnt think that it actually adds layers of complexity to a game...games without it feel empty and less thrilling. No other sytem makes things like crafting, exploring, or other pve activities so entertaining.
Also your probably finding out that the terrible and horrible ganker crowd in Xyson is just stealing your pants and moving on, pvpers dont have much intrest in runing your game unless you give them a reason too, however these types of griefers do exist, and are easily dealt with if its brough to the communities attention. Good pvpers love nothing more than to grief a griefer whos ruining others gameplay. Usually theyll do it untill he loggs off too.
Dont fear the full loot pvp with no safe zones, its really just been over dramatized, and was only a problem during darkfalls launch. In my time in darkfall i never once had an issue with losing too mmany things of value to contuniue playing, or had issues with a seriuous griefer....im not sure some people really understand how much an unsafe setting adds to the pve side of the game....its why theres so many darkfall players here, they know what it adds and its addicting once you get use to it and adapt.
Funny how many "brave" PKers cower and run under a system of PK with consequence, where they have to show personal accountability for their actions and can't hide among a zerg of like minded players.
Some PvP players will actually love this environment. A lot of other players will enjoy the danger that PvP players will represent when out exploring beyond the safe zones, with out it just being a mass FFA. The threat of danger and knowing that today might be the day that danger will manifest is a lot more exciting than going out knowing that an area is swarming with people who will find you in seconds to minutes and kill you.
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Yah, this is kinda how I see it. I don't mind being in a game that has 99 percent of the land as free for all, but it's like a horror movie: once you see the monster, it isn't as scary as the THOUGHT of the monster and nowhere near as interesting. So goes it with PvP - except replace monster with PKer.
Well first off all this bravdo around a Role Playing Game in of itself is funny and I think not a single co-worker or family member I know of wouldnt laugh out loud at the idea of someone trying to be a bad ass role player.
Having said that, if war is going to be part of a game, zergs MUST matter. Zerg control is a great deal of what war tactics and stradgey is all about.
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The only reason you see it like that is just because Alignment is a forgotten aspect in MMO gaming. EVE still sorta has it and is pretty much the only one I know that has it.
You can PK all day long, but if you do it the wrong way, don't expect to enter high sec space. I wish Alignment had an effect in 0.0.
What I wonder about FFA PVP is where in civilized history it has existed. Wasn't in Greece, wasn't in Rome, wasn't in Fuedal Japan or Ancient China, hell it didn't even exist in tribal African or Native American cultures, and it doesn't exist anywhere today. Sure, you could kill people out in the wild and get away, but that's not what people mean by FFA PVP in MMO gaming.
It makes no sense, because it doesn't work. Players aren't going to govern themselves, they never have in any FFA system ever built, so they need mechanisms in place for this to happen, just as there were laws and rules in real life.
There are no "hordes" or "zergs" for consequences for newbie gankers. That's just rediculous wishful thinking. They just gank all day long w/o consequence, driving away any hope of new players.
Doesn't really matter. From what I'm reading, Xyson is dead already. They are just going to get a few Darkfall players and maybe a few crafters, but as far as an enjoyable sandbox there is no hope. I guess you can't expect much from a guy who already released a massive fail already.
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I like Xsyon, very much so, and play it frequently. I have to admit though that I'm getting worried.
The game gets more and more players from the Darkfall community, some of them very vocal players too - and coupled with the current FFA PvP ruleset with no consequences for PKing and no alignment there's the real risk that the game becomes Darkfall 2.0, sure a better Darkfall, but still Darkfall.
I hope the Xsyon dev decides to tone down the PvP quite a bit, otherwise we could see another great sandbox idea going down the drain because of the PvP-crowd.
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I'd hate to see another great sandboxgo down the drain like Ultima Online did with Trammel. You carebears just don't get it. We don't come into non FFA games and demand PVP. Why in the world do so many of you come into FFA PVP games demanding safety? It makes no sense. Get a clue. The sandbox is home to the PVP crowd.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Sorry friend, you're rewriting history.
Trammel didn't ruin anything. It was an option. No one closed down the FFA PvP world. And that, at the beginning of MMO history, is the lesson that is still true:
Most people when given the choice between FFA PvP and something else, will take that something else.
The figures I've heard were that 90% of the UO playerbase went to Trammel, and 10% stayed with FFA PvP. FFA PvP'ers only complain about Trammel because they lost sheep to gank.
The same dynamic seems to be playing out now with Xsyon.
Never criticize a "sandbox" game on mmorpg.com. You will be drowned in a wave of kool-aid drinking fanbois.
QFT
I'm just going to add:
UO's population quadrupled post Trammel.
Sandbox =/= FFA PVP
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Guys,is Ginger moving to this game? If he is i gotta play it. The world is not the same without him!!!
What YOU don't get is that Xsyon was never meant to be a FFA PVP centered game. So who is trying to change the game to fit their agenda? Sad truth your type of players fail to realize is, if FFA PVP games are in such demand by the general game playing public, why is it that the few full-loot, PVP FFA games out there are doing so poorly? MO or DF anyone?
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
this game looks like a joke.
Well said, there is definately option for 2nd server with 0 rules/consequences on PvP, and i say let em have it.
My guesstimate that current server will be just fine, will have healthy population and dynamic game play.
I'm slowly coming around to believe that the only thing that can safe Xsyon from morphing into Darkfall 2.0 now is a "Trammel" server. Let us "carebears" have a server where we can build up the world until tribal warfare is introduced.
When tribal warfare is ready let them introduce that both to the FFA PvP and the "Trammel" server.
I know, the boards would explode if they would introduce a non-FFA PvP server...
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Well, nobody really asked for PvE server, and Jordi himself has written on forums that PvE server is not even considered, just PvP server with diferent rules.