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Battlegrounds has destroyed MMORPG PvP.
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To me, open world pvp is boring. It makes me think of grinding kills to level. I play on a PvE server, bc I want to be able to solo sometimes. And I don't want to be interupted by someone who was bored and likes to hold a magnifying glass over bugs for entertainment. (Yeah, you can slaughter someone 20 levels + lower than you, when do we we erect your statue, lol). Most open world pvp I would categorize as harrasment.
I go into BG's when I WANT to pvp. A more level playing field.
OP is simply wrong. Not enjoying something =/= something being bad. In this case battlegrounds are great place for PvP for many folks(thus popularity), just not for him. Instead of writing his opinion, he wrote "I know better" post.
Next for the popularity. Some folks claim that battlegrounds PvP activity vs open world comes from hefty rewards devs put in. I say You do exaggerate much. Surely devs can influence incentive to do something by giving neat rewards. Yet they don't have magic purplez sprinkler that will make something not fun entertaining. In simple words if something is boring and/or grindy no reward will make it fun. Legendary items(especially before changes) in LOTRO are perfect example for that. Thus devs will develop that which players find more fun, as this means popularity and profit. Which brings...
Balance. Battlegrounds popularity comes from it, like many above posters noticed. Surely not perfect one, but in games that major power comes from levels and gear it does help immensely. From development side - You don't have to deal with server faction balancing. From player side You don't have to deal with session faction balancing(for example in this zones You have only 4 allied people vs 20 enemies), mixed PvE and PvP(ganking), level imbalance(again ganking). Also...
Casual gamers. Open PvP world is taxing, requires lot of attention and sometimes preparation. Many gamers that are 25+ have many irl responsibilities making their gaming session short and irregular. Battlegrounds are perfect match for them.
Finally lack of RvR or open world PvP in popular titles is simply a result of those being a niche for some gamers. I'm quite sure that if it was such golden mine people claim someone would already mine it aka succeed on MMORPG market(which is quite crowded place). So question emerges - just a vocal forum minority claims or huge financial success that no dev managed to claim yet?
Pvp paranoia died when instanced battlegrounds were introduced then that sudden rush of blood to the head completely disappeared when flying mounts were added. *big sighhhhhhh* I wonder when I'll be knocked out of my chair by another pixel suddenly appearing out of nowhere taking a huge chunk of my hitpoints with that alpha strike and erasing all sense of hope with that snare followed by a killing blow and a wall of /spit text... time to go back to that F2P shooter. Later mmorpg!
Would you really call Battlegrounds a success in World of Warcraft?
I'd like you to log in and try a few things and report back how it went...
1. Go into any BG and before the match starts, ask "Whast the plan?" and see what you get.
2. Go into any BG and before the match starts, make a suggestion of a strategy and see what you get.
3. Go into any BG and ask people to help you take a specific objective and see what you get.
4. Go into any BG and ask people to help you defend something and see what you get.
Of course, if your one of those folks that has absolutey no interest in playing the scenario you queue up for, and are only in it to "Roll Skulls", then yea....BGs are working pretty good for ya.
Your right on the mark for Darkfall, care to explain?
Man, you've apparently missed out on some pretty good games that had great open world PvP systems.
In Lineage 2, I remember there being 200 vs. 200 open world fights over a castle that gave certian economic benefits for the alliance that owned it. I remember there being epic group battles over strategic hunting grounds that dropped a certian crafting material or gave the best XP gains.
There are a ton of reasons for great PvP in the open world....but when you instance 80% of the game's content, you can't be supprised that the only kind of pvp happening in the open world is douche bag griefers that are board riding the same roller coaster.
this thread should be retitled "Battlegrounds has destroyed WoW PvP" because its quite obvious from the poll...
/yawn
what'll they get in spotlight these days...
Thats what i love about open world PvP, and why some people really need to learn that open world pvp is not JUST griefing idiots. Similar to your example of Lineage, ill use a couple games ive had similar experiences in:
Rohan - Guilds were able to hold up to IIRC 1k members. There were several "zerg" guilds that relied on massive numbers to win at PvP, but then there were some smaller guilds like the one i was in with better/stronger players & better strategy/teamwork that would oppose them constantly. We always had massive battles breaking out several times a day over XP & Loot farming spots. It wasnt just "oh i was out soloing and 1 guy came up an dganked me a dnow im gonna cry about it", instead it was "hey a party from X guild is trying to push us off our farming spot, send backup" and it would continue escalating until you had dozens of players from multiple guilds & alliances all showing up in the area trying to dominate the zone and keep their XPers/farmers protected from other guilds. Sometimes these battles would go on for hours, usually only ending when one side was getting rolled so hard they couldnt even fight their way out of the spawn and would eventually ust pack up and leave. My own guild, which had about 10-15 main PvPers ended up forming an alliance with another guild with similar numbers, and anytime one of the zerg guilds started trying to push around any of the smaller guilds, both of ours would show up to fight off the zerg and won nearly every time.
RF Online - For those who dont know, its a RvRvR game, 3 seperate races at war constantly. Within the game, there are special world bosses called Pit Bosses, which spawn about every 4 hours, and they drop many special weapons, armor, accessories, and other tools, and some of the more powerful ones are very coveted. Some of them appear within your own races areas, some of them are in the common areas shared by all races. We always had great battles breaking out over these pitbosses so that 1 race could get the rewards.
The game also has something called Archons, which are elected & appointed leaders of each race with special boosts to their own power depending on their rank. These were usually the strongest players in the game. It was always great fun going out and raiding an enemy race while farming/xping in order to get them to call the Archons to their defense. Once the Archons showed up you could almost always count on a nice big battle breaking out with multiple Archons from each race trying to take out the others and loads of normal players coming to assist. I would rack up several hundred kills a day by going out raiding and triggering these little wars.
I haven't played some of the old games where world PvP just existed and no one avoided it at all costs.
But these days, world PvP can be difficult to come across. Maybe it's because no one wants to lose anymore. Even though, in my opinion, if you run from a fight, you lost.
I choose PvP servers because I like having to have my head on a swivel. Never knowing when someone might attack you while you're trying to kill some MOB keeps the game exciting for me. I literally fall asleep playing on PvE servers. And the rare occasions when someone attacks me or I attack someone else are usually the most fun I have during a play session on a PvP server, win or lose.
Using Warhammer and Warcraft as examples though, it can be difficult to find world PvP. In Warhammer I saw war bands run around and lock everything down, unmolested, so they could enter the other side's capital for the endgame "PvP." Then they'd let the other side lock everything down. Trading places. Keep swaps. So everyone could get their RR up. They all wanted the sweet purps. In Warcraft, you'd announce in trade chat that the Alliance was in Thrall's throne room and the majority of responses would be, "Just let them get their mount." No one fought in the the world unless it was an unfair fight (due to numbers or levels). If you attacked anyone that was nearly equal in level to you, they would pop every escape ability they had and run.
You can find occasional world PvP, but if you want PvP now... RIGHT NOW... you could always find it in Scenarios and Battlegrounds. (OK, not in Alterac Valley where everyone would ride by each other and wave from a safe distance until they got to the NPCs they had to kill to win.) Other than the gear grinders, those people were there to PvP. Sometimes it mirrored world PvP, as in Arathi Basin, where people would look at a capture point and say, "Oops, too many there, time to turn around!" But the best place to find PvP is battlegrounds, only topped by arena type games, where you have no choice but to PvP.
So, in conclusion, I would say that Battlegrounds have not destroyed MMORPG PvP, but that players have. Players who avoid it at all costs. Players who really want to play a single player game, but think that some of the MMOs are pretty cool games, so they want in too, but without all the hassle of having to really deal with other people.
For myself, I would like to find a game that truly has world PvP with players who actually PvP.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I value PvP, and I can't stand open-world PvP. Personally, I find it's for losers that can't actually PvP not skilled players, just like winning a bar fight doesn't make a soldier. I really can't understand how anyone with any sort of self respect can actually think it's better. Is it better because a group can attack one and have it an unfair fight? Or is it better because a person can make a twink for an unfair advantage. Or is it fair because it rewards the players that are hardcore instead of the casual? I played enough open world PvP to know that the players who are renown on the servers are typically the biggest douchebags around rather then the best players at all. And they are the biggest whiners when they lose because they think their reputation is at stake.
If instanced PvP isn't good enough, then they should improve the dynamics of the instance, but open world pvp is crap.
There is only one way that I think open world pvp is good, and thats a questless sandbox. Basically a PvP instance that never goes away.
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I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
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Yeah, a 200 vs 200 is still like a bg. It's an event. True open world pvp
has no purpose (since the poor victim will prolly be too low to award honor). There are no objectives, except to harrass your fellow gamers. I don't want my game interrupted bc "hardcore pvp'ers" want to force me pvp.
Kind of sound slike youre bitter. Like youve either never experienced good PvP vs Gankers & Griefers... that or maybe you just suck at PvP?
Why do so many ppl assume that those who support world pvp are looking for easy kills or lowbies to camp? Sounds abit stupid to me like you've maybe never done world pvp or you possibly suck at pvp in general and dont like your pride hurt which is ok too. But if you cant take dying once in a while nvm the odds, then world pvp probably isnt for you. But nevermind that.
Personally I like world pvp coz of the thrill. Roaming with a tight group not knowing what our next encounter will be is a great feeling imo. It could be the zerg or that mirror group from the other faction. Chance encounters for me are just so much more thrilling and rewarding then some lame predetermined setup with "carry the Flag" objectives. Nvm balance, nvm numbers. Win or lose this is the best kind of pvp and this is what draws me to such games (not that many around sadly). I dont do duels, I dont do 1v1 even in world pvp, I always play a healer/support class and ofc I'll try defend myself but usually in a 1v1 I die miserably but I dont care... there is no pride hurt, there's no crying over "lameness". I just pick myself up knowing that in our next group clash I'll most likely get to do some asskicking of my own
These are just opinions ofc. I've tried some WoW arena and I can see its competitive but its too much e-sports and too little mmorpg for me. There's absolutely no thrill for me in top tier arena say 3v3 where you can pretty much guess what setup you're going to meet anyways.
/rant off
Thats the best part of the open world PvP. The unknown factors. never knowing who is going to show up, when, where, how many, etc. You might be sitting there doing a quest and suddenly see some enemies moving in and go "Oh shit, do i have time to run or hide? Will i be able to fight them off if i charge at them? Should I try to get into a better position to defend myself against them instead? Should I call for backup... is there even anyone close enough to help?" Then when the fights break out, theres more unknowns & unexpected occurences too. You might start getting your ass kicked, then all of a sudden an allied ranger appears in the distance and starts popping them full of arrows from behind and they dont even realize it until theyre on the ground. Or just as youre about to give up and accept your defeat, a fellow priest who happened to be on their way to the same quest starts tossing heals on you from the shadows allowing you to survive long enough to win. Theres so many differen tthings that can change in a matter of seconds with open world PvP. The element of surprise & having to pay attention around you adds to the fun. Sitting there all day every day KNOWING that nothing unpredictable will ever ever ever happen to you is completely and utterly lame boring shit. All you need to know is pressing THESE keys = that mob dies. So pressing those keys = automatic win every single time.
I understand though that some people are afraid of those unknowns, they dont like being impacted by other peopl ein any way. They HAVE to be in control of every aspect of the game, or else to them the game is bad. They have to know that theyll only be fighting X amount of people within X area, and since theyre X class they can expect X skills to be used in X pattern. That shit gets boring. Its about as predictable as fighting AI scripted mobs.
Its like comparing some lame boring office job where you sit there typing/doing the exact same things & talking to the exact same people all day every day vs being a bounty hunter or something like that. You go out everyday never knowing who youre going to run into, where youre going to need to go, what they might try to do to you, etc. Some people prefer the safe & boring job... but then why would you want to do the EXACT SAME THING the rest of the day in an MMO? Arent we supposed to be having fun and going on adventures and encountering new & unexpected things, rather than just extending our mundane daily lives into a virtual world? Its ok to be suprised and get killed by someone in the game... youre not going to really die. Stop being so afraid of the unexpected.
Battlegrounds are awesome! It's just like real life. Queue up by joining a military force and they'll send you to a warzone to fight! I don't want to get ganked when I go pick up my mail at the mailbox! But like a PvP server (which I always play on) it can happen when you least expect it.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I'ts about camaraderie. Look it up if you don't know what it is. It's hard to find in todays games.
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Umm... yeah that would be cool if that was how warfare actually worked. Sorry but you dont exactly have the leaders of each side sitting down going "Oh you have 500 soldiers? Well we have 5000, but we will only let 500 fight you because its even that way. Oh whats that, all of your weapons & technology are 30 years old? Well ok then, we will go reequip ourselves with the same stuff instead of using these nifty new high tech weapons against you guys. Or better yet, here we will give you half of our supplies & weapons so we are on even terms now. Ready to fight now? Oh, you need a couple more hours to prepare... well ok we will just sit here and twiddle our thumbs until youre ready to fight then."
The only MMO to get battlegrounds right was the one who invented them, Dark Age of Camelot. Copy that system exactly and you'll have good PvP.
Zoned world, not instanced, thebattleground is persistant, there's no locking out people or evening out the numbers, it allows for dynamic PvP, encourages teamwork and coordination, and gives real world rewards.
Equipment is never the same for boths sides of any fight (virtual or real) nor is skill level of the person playing (fighting). But you got me with the total numbers on each side, although sheer numbers and better equipment doesn't necessarily result in a automatic victory either. See Vietnam war, Korean War and Afghanistan for examples.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I disagree with the OP's title,(didnt read the thread)
The BG in WoW didnt ruin PvP. What ruined the PvP was the poor design of PvP in WoW.
for example, Vanilla WoW's AV battle was the most epic thing I have seen in WoW, PvP wise. yet that was destroyed because Blizzard made a poor decision to speed up AV, and remove the meaning of PvE in AV, which was another thing that made AV epic and standout from other BG in WoW.
AV didnt kill PvP. I remember I would queue up for a long time to get into AV. and Back then, we didnt have the queue from anywhere system we had today. So we had to sacrifice time to travel to a Battlemaster just to get into the game.
and the NPC back then, hit like trucks!!!, I would compare AV damage to Health ratio, to how AV was a few weeks before CAT came out putting players in higher lvl tiers of AV bracket.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Well for me, I like battlegrounds.
Indeed, there is no element of surprise, but that's ok with me. At least, there is a fine distinction between PVE and PVP. If I want to do some PVP, then I'll join bg. If I'm doing PVE, I don't want somebody to disturb me and attack me suddenly while I'm doing quests.
Also, bg prevents random pking, especially high levels picking off the lower level players.
For your concern regarding memorizing the safe spots, the trees, the blades of grass, well that can be solved by giving different bg maps. Or same map, but randomly generated. So the positioning may be different and stuff.
Played: Runescape, Adventure Quest
Currently playing: Aika Global, Atlantica Online
Waiting for: Cardmon Hero, Dynasty Warriors Online
Real warfare have nothing at all to do with MMOs. People like Napoleon, Cesar or Rommel never let people run around for themselves in a big pile. Not even morons like Haigh and Westmoreland would go for that.
If you want some kind of realism in a MMO you would need to change a lot. Add a field commander (like in Natural selection), give bonuses for fighting in formations and so on.
To me it sounds like you say that a Megas is not as realtic as a griffon. Not a good argument against or for battlegrounds.
As I see it is the bad part about battlegrounds that you instance up the game which means you see fewer people when you play and it makes the game feel a lot less massive.
The main problem I have with battlegrounds is instancing. Now I understand that it is an easy solution to keep the server hardware stable for developers however it really ruins the idea of my actions having any real effect on the outside world. Whether I lose or win this instanced battle, it will haven o real significant effect on the game world, just some more points for me to grind to get another peice of gear.
War's RvR was a good start in the right direction with instances, world pvp, and public quests adding to the overall war effort, however i feel that the changes really didn't mean alot but atleast you had some significance on the over all world no matter what you did.
World pvp is the most enjoyable for me... the risk that yes someone could jump me when im trying to mine a node is fun. It keeps things exciting, I keep panning my camera or turning around watching my back for who knows what will happen next. The terrain can be used to your advantage and isnt static, nothing more boring then arenas in wow, pillar humo line of sight, repeat same X, Y, Z formula and win. Theres no sponataneity (randomness) in it at all, it feels like everything was deliberately programmed and controlled and that just isn't the heart of pvp.
I don't think my ideas are better then others as they are just my philosophies and opinions however the majority of the growing player base see's the fastest way to get to a goal as the best way. They forget that the actual action of playing the game should be enjoyable not just X/Y/Z rewards. With this you have to take in the fact that if you want open world pvp to be dominate in your game you have to (A) have no alternative, or (B) make the rewards and availability of instanced pvp inferior.
Take warhammer for example to get world pvp active they had to buff the renown bonus like 3-6 times greater then getting a kill in an instance because it obviously isnt as consistent. Open world pvp isn't usually fast paced and puts you right into the action. Theres the hunt, the chase and then the fight assuming they dont get away, balancing these two play styles in a way they are both enjoyable and rewarding while not killing each other is a very grueling process.
Where is the "I don't play WoW clones" option? The only real MMORPG's on the market do not have instanced crap or "pvp servers".
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
That's not the primary problem being solved.
Avoiding casual, skill-less "I brought more friends so I win" PVP is the problem solved by battlegrounds.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver