Way back in the early days of MMOs, I believed that as technology progressed we would get true virtual worlds. That promise still keeps me kicking around on the edge of the genre but I don't currently play an MMO and I dont plan to. As with any 'game', there will come a point when you get bored with it. The repetitive nature of a simple game (or even a complex one) will eventually turn most people away eventually. Most MMOs today fall squarely in the camp of simple. They are even more simple than most games precisely because, you, the player can't even lose the game or win it. There is no purpose to these games other than to say that I reached max level and have items and everyone can get there if they can tolerate the grind. I believe many players are coming to this conclusion slowly. Hopefully, this will evnentually change the genre.
It is probably the reason why I'm after all this years still play DAoC, because there endgame means RvR...I see nearly every day a different situation and experince different things in PvP so it won't get boring.
However in all other MMOs, published after 2004 or...they are calloed EQ, one has to visit several dungeons...raid, again and again. WAR did something pretty similar and I hated it for that.
Why should I go for better gear, just to get into another Dungeon? It is pretty much pointless to me. I prefer there how it was done in DAoC, it makes sense...yet it is the only MMO that I know what is like this though.
The reason "endgame" is more important is because it allows someone to create a very distinctive emotional attachment to a character, which in turn results in many months of subscription fees. If you only care about getting to the max level (a.k.a, "the journey"), then you will never have a strong emotional tie to your character and as soon as you hit max level, you probably will end your subscription or make an alt, and realize it's the same gameplay, then end the subscription. So yeah, the endgame is what keeps populations long-term.
There are gear-grind theme-park based end-games (not my thing, but lots of people like it), sand-box games and PvP focused sand-box games. Personally, if it wasn't for the PvP sand-box games like DAOC, I probably wouldn't play MMOs. I know some people just can't stand PvP, but it's the randomness and uncertainty that makes it a long-term, emontional attachment between the player and their character.
Endgame is very important. The journey should also be important. Getting both right would be fantastic.
Unfortunately most games have gotten "endgame" wrong. Well, really all but one. DAoC is the only game that got how "Endgame" should be. You have dragon raids for PvE people, and RvR for PvP people. There's something for both, and neither gets an advantage over the others in really any way. Granted it wouldn't hurt you to run some raids before going RvR, but you don't HAVE to in order to be successful in RvR. It's boggled my mind why we don't have a million DAoC "Clones" lol.
Because so many PvP games released after DAOC have failed. Shadowbane and Warhammer (a game produced by the same company) both bombed and AOIN was a dissapointment. The major problems with PvP games in MMO are that they all try to do a 2-faction war, instead of a 3-faction war and/or they have open free-for-all PvP which is a niche crowd. Most developers have gone with a 2-faction based game because it requires a lot less content and graphics coding than a 3-faction based game, and all that costs money.
OP you are actually very wrong. SWG had Endgame, DAoC had endgame and so did EQ. You better go read up and we used that term then as well. I remember we would raid the Corvette or Death Watch Bunker... I can go on all day but I think you are just too much a rookie to the MMO genre so you made this assumption on your own without asking true old school vets from all of these games. I have played em all and don't know of any without some form of endgame. I have used that term since DAoC...
Ultima Online ... 7x GM ... no end game
Thank you. Exactly. Sinjin you made an awful lot of assumptions, all of them WRONG, by the way. You apparently don't know very much about the writer of this article. WoW was not her first MMO. And I also played UO and NEVER heard the term "endgame." The whole POINT of an MMO is that it didn't "end."
Thank You. Very good write up. I think I have changed about mind after reading your article. I've played WoW and FFXI. Never liked WoW, the leveling or the endgame, well never got to the endgame because the leveling was not fun. I liked how FFXI played, making a party, preparing for epic battles. I liked the raids in FFXI. But now I am certainly looking forward to the joy ride of leveling in TOR, GW2 and possibly TSW. All three seem very story focused so that's what I had always been looking for in MMO + raids.
You're not alone Isabelle. Reading that article made me feel like I had written it and was reading it back to myself, well in almost all aspects. I do love dungeons and grouping, so we'll have to put that to one side, but I hate this blind spot towards the endgame and raiding.
It was EQ that got me so enamoured with MMOs and it was in EQ that the journey meant so much. Ever since, though, it's been steadily progressing towards where the levelling doesn't matter but the reaching of the level cap does, and it's getting old.
EQ2 started out alright, but on my return to the game (a few years on) it was almost as if you had to be at level cap (forget what it was at that time) to be recognised. I can recall trying to get shard runs and, even though a 78 or 79 (or was it 68 and 69) could manage the content admirably they would never be picked...unless no one was avaialble. You had to be max level to get noticed, and that meant slogging to the end with solo questing.
It then went even further, and grouping was being phased out for pick up raid after pick up raid. MMOs had no longer become the domain of PUGs, as was so enjoyable in EQ, but the domain of PURs.
Other game experiences have been similar. LotRO may have started off being all about the journey, though I wasn't there. When I did join the game it was all about the slog so that I could be max level and experience the fun. Mid level dungeons were populated by the few people that were willing to sit around for hours waiting to do a dungeon, or the high levels that were bored and fancied helping out a few sloggers. It's an aside but I hate that. If a rush to the endgame, and then nothing to do, promotes one thing then it's high levels joining mid level dungeon groups and making things so easy that they become dull and boring.
Then came Rift, a game I've harped on about my hatred of to a major extent. I sometimes wonder if anyone who sees my username in a thread assumes I'm there to talk about how awful Rift was. It's probably not the case, but my hatred of Rift rises above all others. It's the furthest point possible from my old experience of EQ in that the journey matters not one bit. It's all about a quick rush to the endgame and then enjoying what Trion can provide. There's little reason to even make alts due to the class system and the shallowness of the journey. I hope to god that Rift does not become the standard model for MMOs now, because I couldn't stomach another game like that. Trion used to talk about making the endgame fun, but I never eralised that what they emant was that the endgame was the mother of all things...where it was at.
I went back to EQ, for the progression server, chiefly because I was so disillusioned with the whole MMO things and where it had gone with Rift. Without Rift's progressing of the problem inherent with MMOs I might have left my memories alone.
What I found was that the cause of the problem is not only the dev companies but the players themselves. Not all players, but many, are convinced that the endgame is the place to be and EQ went along that path with the new servers. There was a frantic rush to the level cap and an increase of MMO greed with it. It wasn't the journey that I remember from my first days in EQ back in 2002.
It would be nice if the dev coimpanies were entirely to blame, because it would be easier to change this doldrum that MMOs find themselves in, but the attitude of the players needs to change too. It is true that the games have made that attitude achievable, but now players wnat it and devs likely feel they have to provide it.
I really hope the up and coming games can change the MMO experience to one that promotes the journey and the social aspect of MMOs. It is sadly lost at the moment and will take a brave developer to alter things.
Excellent article! While I *do* enjoy group content, every single MMO where I have been *forced* into group play in order to meaningfully progress my character, has resulted in my unsubscribing.
Sure, groups and raids can be fun, but not constantly. It's like going to work one day and being told that from this day forth, you will participate in comittee meetings every day...forever! *shiver* I'm sorry, but is there another department I can transfer to? Pay cut? That's fine, I'll make do somehow.
I am *always* in a Guild, and I *love* chatting with my friends. I'm not anti-social. I just don't like being forced to group every day in order to progress. I'll make alts, or craft, or just chat with people...until that just gets old...and then I will unsub. In fact, the *first* thing I look for in an MMO is how solo-friendly it is. If an MMO *requires* grouping from the start, I don't care how much I like the IP or the publisher - I won't take a second look at it.
raiding & the whole "endgame" concept was a nice gimmick for mmo's for a few years but the fun of it has worn off & it all feels much more like work for little reward. Plus it never really fits all that well into the feel of the game itself when you do it once or twice a week. The mentality of mmo's having an end to them should be corrected.
I think nowdays when people say "there is no endgame" they actually mean "all there is to do at cap is raiding".
Like Seriously every game continues to do this and while some like WAR allow you to experience some of the thrills of endgame as you level up still it has the ultimate goal of hitting cap & then playing PvP or raiding.
Niche MMO's should take particular note, if you have a small group of people interested in your game then worst case scenario only 1 quarter of them are probably interested in raiding full time (in a similar vein its probably only a quarter of your population that is interested in endgame crafting also). Which means if Raiding and multi person instances is all you offer as endgame yoru already small community will be decimated once people start reaching cap as non raiders get bored and move on.
To help maybe fix this endgame design paralysis that is going on in the MMO genre perhaps having regular content updates adding PvP & PvE content , randomly generated instances (not just at endgame but throughout leveling), sideways leveling (you hit cap but then you can earn other interesting abilities/perks by continuing to gain xp), expanded crafting, retiring an old character to bestow benefits upon new characters (parent passing on to son/daughter type thing) new story arcs and world events to participate in (world events should not just be for endgamers) and of course leaving plenty of opportunities open for exploring (random instances are like the ultimate for explorers).
I am sure there are plenty of other great ideas out there too but as with any "innovation in MMO's" no one wants to be the first to take a risk, most titles are too busy trying to play catchup to WoW and steal their susbscribers.
The end-game does need a facelift in nearly every MMORPG. It stops being fun after the 3rd or 4th time you take down a boss. It becomes a weekly 'job'. So do 'daily' quests. While I do like that they 'help increase faction', needing to do them at all is an indication that something is 'broken', honestly.
If end-game were so much fun... Trade Channel Trash Talk either wouldn't exist OR it would be 'tolerable'.
And now you finally understand the truth about pure pve game play, and to a lesser extent themeparks as a whole. This is how pvpers are born, from the ashes of boredom, to counter end game repitition, because nothing in pvp is scripted, nothing is repetitive, it's not about shinies, merit badges, or high score. It's about respect and recognition of skill, for your guild pride, for your own virtual immortality.
Welcome to the real game.
That's got to be Matrix inspired?! Good skills...^ ^
Awesome article. I think End-game must be the developers' attempt to address eg the situation: "Everyone is assembled for an urgency meeting... the head (devs) looks around solemnly at the assembled crowd (the players) and starts proceedings by saying purposefully: "We all knew this day would come... ." Perhaps Endgame is the result of the most profitable way to monetize or at least most effective way to keep players playing a subscription game?
I think faction PvP has the potential to supplement Endgame raids or even become End of the game for PvE AFTER moving your main onto this variable/repeatable game system which according to daoc does generate some strong community/fun too? For more PvE more viable alts? Hmm, one day such a system will filter into the whole of the game and levelling will disappear along with it too maybe.
The journey is definatly the point, for me anyway. Every time I hit level cap I get quickly bored. Getting together 10 people for a raid is tedious and time consuming. Waiting 3 hours to finally get enough people to do a raid is crazy. Leveling an alt is usually no fun either as the content is usually the same and the same boredom sets in.
At the very least, like in SWG, the crafting was deep and kept you entertained while you tried to build a city or the best weapon etc.. alas most games do not have a decent crafting system as an alternative to end game.
You know, rather than have an endgame, why don't we just have more games like DDO that allow the altohalics just "reincarnate" their level capped character? Let them keep some of their power from having been to level cap before and let the players determine their own "level cap."
Or even better yet: Lets make a levelless game for a change. Allow us to level skills to infinity. Take EVE's classless system and expand it to include xp requirements instead of time requirements for skills. Allow the skills to be upgraded through questing, repitition, or gold (or all) indefinately. Sure, in the overall scheme of thigs you are going to have some unbeatable rocks out there versus scissors, but they will have no defense against the ultimate paper. Sure it would be a grind, but it would be your grind, defined by limits set by you.
I always had a serious problem with "The game starts at x lvl." To me that always meant you didn't have the right skills as a game designer to figure out how to make content fun. And it brings up other questions, if your entire leveling span is not "part of the game" as players see it then get rid of it. What's the point of having you got around killing 10 rats, goblins, burglars, thiefs, murderers, etc over and over and over if the content surrounding it is complete rubbish.
End game could almost be an ironic term on the tombstone of many games. It is one of the things most demanded on the forums of games still in development and yet many players, if not most , never make it to that content. One would think if profit was actually the goal that a desire to keep the majority of players happy and keep them in game long enough to develope attachments would be important. Instead the lofty goal of pleasing a smaller player base of elitist end gamers takes a priority even though they are not paying any more for their sub than average solo questing and occaional grouping joe, and are likely max level in a week or less and moving on their next conquest in less than 4 months. I know the idea of keeping average joe scrambling for the big goal is part of it too but I think devs need to realize that the frustration factor leads to looking for a new game at some point.
I get the feeling sometimes that every dev longs to be a part of that elitist group and that some are. Even if said multi game guild with much influence is really just stringing them along. No names of course LOL.
I've been playing MMOs since UO came out, and my fondest memories are still seated with DAoC. I liked the way pvp, crafting and pve all were interwoven and its community sense was a very palpable presence. Unfortunately, Trials of Atlantis with its forced raiding content to remain competitive in PvP killed the game for me and many others. I've enjoyed WoW, used to raid regularly up till Cata came out and then total burnout set in. Not because the raids were too hard, they're not that hard at all, everything is spelled out for you to do in video tutorials and just requires people to run it a few times to get the timing and routine down, but the treadmill of yet more levels, yet more gear to collect, more epeens to put up with, and pvp being gear>>>player skill/ability.
The problem of WoW (for me), and themepark games in general, is their static content/play style and the very nature of having to cater to the lowest common denominator. It also fostered a very base community who's vitriol spewing and peacock posturing was endless and largely without substance. Sadly, this is the face of the public in the truest sense.
MMOs are no longer about community or journey, they're about gear and bragging/dissing. Something which the themepark model takes to a further extent than others, and sadly, its the model that dominates. But I am faithful that human nature being what it is, the WoW model is closing in on its end. You can only endure so much repetition till you get sick of it, which is why as a former raider, I've become more and more enamored of games with a solid pvp component.
That said though, I don't like static pvp content either, I tried WAR and found it mind numbing as well, too much CC, and just flipping the same old objectives for a few more measely points, oh and...shinies/level > skill. PvP should be about the same things in game that conflict is about in real life, resources that change the lives of the owners for the better.
I.E. Hold castle X and your faction enjoys Y while the enemy factions wish they had it and resent you for holding it and plot to take it away from you. And when a faction is downtrodden and has little hope, they need a mythical legend to unlock within their own region to give them a solid fighting chance, thus a small, tight knit community can topple a teeming horde if they prepare for it and have 'the gods on their side', something that can't happen unless the rival faction has way more presence. Such mythical elements could be permanent and stolen or have a timed duration and then a new one has to be sought out/made, etc.
So much devs could do if they would actually try to design a game with a more to do than repeat the same sort of fight against robots or static models of pvp goals. It'll take time, the market is already showing its impatience and lack of interest in the formats that are out. SWTOR and GW2 may redefine the MMO genre or merely leach away enough money from WoW to where WoW's influence diminishes far enough to where much greater creativity is endorsed. Either way, it may be a while, but the whole static Endgame paradigm is going to change because it cannot sustain itself, human nature goes against it. Don't believe me? Take your favorite food, eat it and nothing else for a year, and at the end of that year, how many more of that type of food do you think you'll buy?
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I agree with this article as well. I would love to see more sandbox activities included at end game; as well as throughout the game. Raiding is not for me.
Seem to be a lot of DOAC fans on this thread. I liked the concept of DOAC but, (braces for the tomatoes to be thrown), I never liked their interface. Te controls and the turn radius and just about everything in the way you interacted with the world felt backwards to me, so sadly I never got to endgame.
My point about thsi thread is that it really comes down to play style. Some people work fast, and live fast, and drive fast. So why wouldn't they play fast? It stands to reason your argument for slowing down and smelling the flowers is really an inditement of the pace at which society moves today. MMO's used to be played but a very narrow cross section of people, very computer and game literate middle and upper class people.
WoW, for better or worse, has changed that. There are a lot of players for whom WoW is their first major gaming experience. They are going to have vastly diffrent ideas from old-timers about where to take the game. IDKY but it reminds me of some of the old people you work with who refuse to become computer literate. I'm sure life was better before the information age, but just the same, I don't want to go back to a life before the internet. lol
Seem to be a lot of DOAC fans on this thread. I liked the concept of DOAC but, (braces for the tomatoes to be thrown), I never liked their interface. Te controls and the turn radius and just about everything in the way you interacted with the world felt backwards to me, so sadly I never got to endgame.
My point about thsi thread is that it really comes down to play style. Some people work fast, and live fast, and drive fast. So why wouldn't they play fast? It stands to reason your argument for slowing down and smelling the flowers is really an inditement of the pace at which society moves today. MMO's used to be played but a very narrow cross section of people, very computer and game literate middle and upper class people.
WoW, for better or worse, has changed that. There are a lot of players for whom WoW is their first major gaming experience. They are going to have vastly diffrent ideas from old-timers about where to take the game. IDKY but it reminds me of some of the old people you work with who refuse to become computer literate. I'm sure life was better before the information age, but just the same, I don't want to go back to a life before the internet. lol
I think the misstake here is assuming that one game can make all people happy. Wow tries and even though it have loads more players than anything else P2P many people think leveling is too fast.
There is room for one game with a lot slower leveling and one either with just fast or that starts in the endgame from the start.
The real reason behinds Wows huge success is that it is a well made game. It would still be huge if leveling was very slow as well so pointing on games with slower levelings sub numbers doesn't really prove or dsproves anything.
MMO games needs to be more diverse and stop trying to be everything at once. But they also needs to be well made with good coding.
Even if WoW is your first MMO experience, the game has devolved now to a boring "single-playerish" rush to raiding. Everyone is too busy leveling now to enjoy what the game does have to offer. This causes the leveling journey to seem irrelevant. The developers focused so much time on the end-game content that the social aspect of the game was largely forgotten. I would welcome a new MMO that encouraged a player to interact with other players for some other reason than taking down a raid boss or selling their over priced ore.
I'll post a dissenting standpoint here. Before I get dismissed as a low-IQ gerbil with ADHD, I'll have to say that I've been playing tabletop or PnP RPGs since 1981, I've made my own (successful) Neverwinter Nights server in the roleplay section on GS, and I've participated or built in about a dozen more between NWN1 and NWN2.
Before Monty Haul gets brought up, the only players I DMed who made it up to level 12 were after nearly 2 years of regular game-sessions, under the 2ED rules. I think there was a grand total (in a Forgotten Realms setting) of a dozen magical items between eight players. So I'm pretty frugal, and not at all "item rich" in my playstyle.
As far as MMO experience, I beta tested SWG and played for about 6-7 months, did COH, AOC, EQ2, WOW, LotR beta... more than I can remember, in actual fact. Eve just never appealed to me so I cannot speak for that MMO.
First, let me say that I am not a WOW fanboi. I quit the game due to repetitive gameplay, boring expansion, my friends moving on, me not being able to do an extensive raiding schedule due to wanting a real live girlfriend , and becoming more involved with real life than fantasy.
I personally enjoyed the End-Game in WOW from TBC to WOTLK. I think that there is a misnomer on "end game" in play with WOW - levels ceased, yes. You no longer gained new abilities, and the game switches over to gear-based rewards.
Funny thing, I actually stopped playing WOW on my Druid at the exact same level as the author did during Vanilla. I had even done some "raiding" (as it was in vanilla) in LBRS.
Gear acquisition, in and of itself, is not the be-all and end all of "end game". "End game" is simply where you ceased being fodder for higher-level gankers and could hold your own against most comers.
Your "levels" still increased in many other ways. Increasing faction standing with different groups was one area to "improve your abilities" - albeit only from gear which wasn't available otherwise.
Gathering or grinding gold still took you to different locales, especially if you collected components or resources for sale on the AH. Some of the more meaningful interactions with other players (even opposing faction) occurred on such trips.
Increasing honor standing and PVP skills (either in World PVP or BGs) was another method of earning tokens and better gear, having social interactions and getting a group of like-minded people together for group BGs, etc. Quite often, some RP would occur (well, as much as can be done within WOW - which is pretty poor).
I could go on, but raiding in and of itself was one piece of the end-game. One which I enjoyed quite well, becoming the 5th best healer on a rather large PVP server - and we were the second-ranked progression guild. I put in perhaps 10-15 hours a week and was relied on quite a bit for this progression - mainly for the 10-man and 25-man heroics. Beating bosses which few others had beaten, and getting the spoils, were of course part of the fun.
I believe the "achiever" metatype has been brought up, and one might categorize me based off of my post above - but above all, I'd say I'm an explorer with a bit of socializer thrown in. I didn't revel in what gear I got so much as seeing the content. Many times I passed on stuff that was only a slight improvement over my current gear, but that was a drastic improvement for a new guildie. But seeing some of the instances which were beautifully crafted, exploring the encounters and figuring out the best way for my healers to keep people alive during them, all these things made this enjoyable.
That above being said, I don't particularly enjoy the development direction, and I do agree with the statements above about the next Xpack making the previous achievements basically useless. There were other problems with the game as well, such as the simplicity of graphics, interaction between factions being retardedly limited, PVP objectives being extremely short-sighted. Everything was just getting pigeon-holed into tightly regimented activities by the time Cata was about to be released, and with the departure of many friends over time, I also left.
However, for me, the "end-game" was fun, and I still "leveled" - just not in the traditional sense. Whether they just turn the "item-leveling" into straight XP leveling or not, or the "faction-leveling" into straight XP or not, it really (from a mechanics point of view) doesn't make a difference.
For example, in COH, the end game (there was none, really) was possibly getting all Hamidon-SOs in your power slots. Hitting level 50 back in the first days was a bit of a chore, not easy in the slightest, and was more akin ot EQ (until E5 or so). However, it was, when you boil it down, the exact same mechanics in play as in WOW - you just hit a numbered level cap later.
What WOW did was take the leveling grind which existed in all other games, shotrtened it, and subverted the remaining ~10 or so levels to gear, factions and honor. A WOW player who had Tier 10/11 gear, who had maxxed factions and had tons of honor points (i.e. PVP experience) couldn't be beaten by a fresh level 80 (going back to WOTLK). It just wasn't possible - said player was equivalent to a level 90 player, and was pretty much out of danger if he had a modicum of wit or intelligence. Even as a clothie playing my Shadow Priest, a level 80 undead rogue in green/blue gear had to have incredible skill and luck to take me down.
Forgive my rambling here, but I think an obvious point was missed by most of the posters here. "The game begins at 60" as most used to say, was true. It's just a different model of "leveling" than exists in the previous MMOs. And it was insanely successful - not due to raiders, or twitch PVPers, or anything else than...
Anyhow, I just think being elitist over the raiders isn't becoming. Looking at it in such a sandbox "the numbers represent the level" light really does limit the understanding of the mechanics, and I'm surprised that so many people don't think out of the box on this.
The "end game" kept everyone busy, just like EQ/SWG/COH, and for about the same amount of time to hit "the cap". The trouble is, the game never ended, and there was always iLevel 200 just around the corner - but without the other methods of "leveling" being increased (with the exception of PVP). And the fact that the raiding content itself became too accessible, unaccessible, too accessible, etc. etc.
I also sort of long to see a story-arc MMO (which I think TOR may end up doing) where the journey is more important than the destination. But don't fool yourself - Blizz was brilliant at extending the journey.
From a dissenting point of view, I hope this opens up some vistas and insight, especially since this seems to have escaped most of the posters (and certainly the author).
I remember Age of Conan that had people screaming after like a week from release for more endgame, i got one char to 80 in aoc thanks to offline leveling but i do prefer the fun getting there, not much for raiding so once at max level game feels bit over to me.
I have played everquest and anarchy online since mid 2001 on and of but not even close to max level, but i don't mind.
Great article. I agree with you. My best MMO experience was my first with EQ back in 1999. I was never worried about end-game. It was the journey leveling up and exploring that I enjoyed most.
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Way back in the early days of MMOs, I believed that as technology progressed we would get true virtual worlds. That promise still keeps me kicking around on the edge of the genre but I don't currently play an MMO and I dont plan to. As with any 'game', there will come a point when you get bored with it. The repetitive nature of a simple game (or even a complex one) will eventually turn most people away eventually. Most MMOs today fall squarely in the camp of simple. They are even more simple than most games precisely because, you, the player can't even lose the game or win it. There is no purpose to these games other than to say that I reached max level and have items and everyone can get there if they can tolerate the grind. I believe many players are coming to this conclusion slowly. Hopefully, this will evnentually change the genre.
It is probably the reason why I'm after all this years still play DAoC, because there endgame means RvR...I see nearly every day a different situation and experince different things in PvP so it won't get boring.
However in all other MMOs, published after 2004 or...they are calloed EQ, one has to visit several dungeons...raid, again and again. WAR did something pretty similar and I hated it for that.
Why should I go for better gear, just to get into another Dungeon? It is pretty much pointless to me. I prefer there how it was done in DAoC, it makes sense...yet it is the only MMO that I know what is like this though.
Well for everyone that loves DAoC I think they might equally love L2 if they gave it a try. I loved both, but always felt the PvP in L2 was more fun.
The reason "endgame" is more important is because it allows someone to create a very distinctive emotional attachment to a character, which in turn results in many months of subscription fees. If you only care about getting to the max level (a.k.a, "the journey"), then you will never have a strong emotional tie to your character and as soon as you hit max level, you probably will end your subscription or make an alt, and realize it's the same gameplay, then end the subscription. So yeah, the endgame is what keeps populations long-term.
There are gear-grind theme-park based end-games (not my thing, but lots of people like it), sand-box games and PvP focused sand-box games. Personally, if it wasn't for the PvP sand-box games like DAOC, I probably wouldn't play MMOs. I know some people just can't stand PvP, but it's the randomness and uncertainty that makes it a long-term, emontional attachment between the player and their character.
Endgame is very important. The journey should also be important. Getting both right would be fantastic.
Because so many PvP games released after DAOC have failed. Shadowbane and Warhammer (a game produced by the same company) both bombed and AOIN was a dissapointment. The major problems with PvP games in MMO are that they all try to do a 2-faction war, instead of a 3-faction war and/or they have open free-for-all PvP which is a niche crowd. Most developers have gone with a 2-faction based game because it requires a lot less content and graphics coding than a 3-faction based game, and all that costs money.
Thank you. Exactly. Sinjin you made an awful lot of assumptions, all of them WRONG, by the way. You apparently don't know very much about the writer of this article. WoW was not her first MMO. And I also played UO and NEVER heard the term "endgame." The whole POINT of an MMO is that it didn't "end."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Thank You. Very good write up. I think I have changed about mind after reading your article. I've played WoW and FFXI. Never liked WoW, the leveling or the endgame, well never got to the endgame because the leveling was not fun. I liked how FFXI played, making a party, preparing for epic battles. I liked the raids in FFXI. But now I am certainly looking forward to the joy ride of leveling in TOR, GW2 and possibly TSW. All three seem very story focused so that's what I had always been looking for in MMO + raids.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
You're not alone Isabelle. Reading that article made me feel like I had written it and was reading it back to myself, well in almost all aspects. I do love dungeons and grouping, so we'll have to put that to one side, but I hate this blind spot towards the endgame and raiding.
It was EQ that got me so enamoured with MMOs and it was in EQ that the journey meant so much. Ever since, though, it's been steadily progressing towards where the levelling doesn't matter but the reaching of the level cap does, and it's getting old.
EQ2 started out alright, but on my return to the game (a few years on) it was almost as if you had to be at level cap (forget what it was at that time) to be recognised. I can recall trying to get shard runs and, even though a 78 or 79 (or was it 68 and 69) could manage the content admirably they would never be picked...unless no one was avaialble. You had to be max level to get noticed, and that meant slogging to the end with solo questing.
It then went even further, and grouping was being phased out for pick up raid after pick up raid. MMOs had no longer become the domain of PUGs, as was so enjoyable in EQ, but the domain of PURs.
Other game experiences have been similar. LotRO may have started off being all about the journey, though I wasn't there. When I did join the game it was all about the slog so that I could be max level and experience the fun. Mid level dungeons were populated by the few people that were willing to sit around for hours waiting to do a dungeon, or the high levels that were bored and fancied helping out a few sloggers. It's an aside but I hate that. If a rush to the endgame, and then nothing to do, promotes one thing then it's high levels joining mid level dungeon groups and making things so easy that they become dull and boring.
Then came Rift, a game I've harped on about my hatred of to a major extent. I sometimes wonder if anyone who sees my username in a thread assumes I'm there to talk about how awful Rift was. It's probably not the case, but my hatred of Rift rises above all others. It's the furthest point possible from my old experience of EQ in that the journey matters not one bit. It's all about a quick rush to the endgame and then enjoying what Trion can provide. There's little reason to even make alts due to the class system and the shallowness of the journey. I hope to god that Rift does not become the standard model for MMOs now, because I couldn't stomach another game like that. Trion used to talk about making the endgame fun, but I never eralised that what they emant was that the endgame was the mother of all things...where it was at.
I went back to EQ, for the progression server, chiefly because I was so disillusioned with the whole MMO things and where it had gone with Rift. Without Rift's progressing of the problem inherent with MMOs I might have left my memories alone.
What I found was that the cause of the problem is not only the dev companies but the players themselves. Not all players, but many, are convinced that the endgame is the place to be and EQ went along that path with the new servers. There was a frantic rush to the level cap and an increase of MMO greed with it. It wasn't the journey that I remember from my first days in EQ back in 2002.
It would be nice if the dev coimpanies were entirely to blame, because it would be easier to change this doldrum that MMOs find themselves in, but the attitude of the players needs to change too. It is true that the games have made that attitude achievable, but now players wnat it and devs likely feel they have to provide it.
I really hope the up and coming games can change the MMO experience to one that promotes the journey and the social aspect of MMOs. It is sadly lost at the moment and will take a brave developer to alter things.
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Excellent article! While I *do* enjoy group content, every single MMO where I have been *forced* into group play in order to meaningfully progress my character, has resulted in my unsubscribing.
Sure, groups and raids can be fun, but not constantly. It's like going to work one day and being told that from this day forth, you will participate in comittee meetings every day...forever! *shiver* I'm sorry, but is there another department I can transfer to? Pay cut? That's fine, I'll make do somehow.
I am *always* in a Guild, and I *love* chatting with my friends. I'm not anti-social. I just don't like being forced to group every day in order to progress. I'll make alts, or craft, or just chat with people...until that just gets old...and then I will unsub. In fact, the *first* thing I look for in an MMO is how solo-friendly it is. If an MMO *requires* grouping from the start, I don't care how much I like the IP or the publisher - I won't take a second look at it.
NICE READ
raiding & the whole "endgame" concept was a nice gimmick for mmo's for a few years but the fun of it has worn off & it all feels much more like work for little reward. Plus it never really fits all that well into the feel of the game itself when you do it once or twice a week. The mentality of mmo's having an end to them should be corrected.
I think nowdays when people say "there is no endgame" they actually mean "all there is to do at cap is raiding".
Like Seriously every game continues to do this and while some like WAR allow you to experience some of the thrills of endgame as you level up still it has the ultimate goal of hitting cap & then playing PvP or raiding.
Niche MMO's should take particular note, if you have a small group of people interested in your game then worst case scenario only 1 quarter of them are probably interested in raiding full time (in a similar vein its probably only a quarter of your population that is interested in endgame crafting also). Which means if Raiding and multi person instances is all you offer as endgame yoru already small community will be decimated once people start reaching cap as non raiders get bored and move on.
To help maybe fix this endgame design paralysis that is going on in the MMO genre perhaps having regular content updates adding PvP & PvE content , randomly generated instances (not just at endgame but throughout leveling), sideways leveling (you hit cap but then you can earn other interesting abilities/perks by continuing to gain xp), expanded crafting, retiring an old character to bestow benefits upon new characters (parent passing on to son/daughter type thing) new story arcs and world events to participate in (world events should not just be for endgamers) and of course leaving plenty of opportunities open for exploring (random instances are like the ultimate for explorers).
I am sure there are plenty of other great ideas out there too but as with any "innovation in MMO's" no one wants to be the first to take a risk, most titles are too busy trying to play catchup to WoW and steal their susbscribers.
The end-game does need a facelift in nearly every MMORPG. It stops being fun after the 3rd or 4th time you take down a boss. It becomes a weekly 'job'. So do 'daily' quests. While I do like that they 'help increase faction', needing to do them at all is an indication that something is 'broken', honestly.
If end-game were so much fun... Trade Channel Trash Talk either wouldn't exist OR it would be 'tolerable'.
That's got to be Matrix inspired?! Good skills...^ ^
Awesome article. I think End-game must be the developers' attempt to address eg the situation: "Everyone is assembled for an urgency meeting... the head (devs) looks around solemnly at the assembled crowd (the players) and starts proceedings by saying purposefully: "We all knew this day would come... ." Perhaps Endgame is the result of the most profitable way to monetize or at least most effective way to keep players playing a subscription game?
I think faction PvP has the potential to supplement Endgame raids or even become End of the game for PvE AFTER moving your main onto this variable/repeatable game system which according to daoc does generate some strong community/fun too? For more PvE more viable alts? Hmm, one day such a system will filter into the whole of the game and levelling will disappear along with it too maybe.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The journey is definatly the point, for me anyway. Every time I hit level cap I get quickly bored. Getting together 10 people for a raid is tedious and time consuming. Waiting 3 hours to finally get enough people to do a raid is crazy. Leveling an alt is usually no fun either as the content is usually the same and the same boredom sets in.
At the very least, like in SWG, the crafting was deep and kept you entertained while you tried to build a city or the best weapon etc.. alas most games do not have a decent crafting system as an alternative to end game.
Good article and I agree!
You know, rather than have an endgame, why don't we just have more games like DDO that allow the altohalics just "reincarnate" their level capped character? Let them keep some of their power from having been to level cap before and let the players determine their own "level cap."
Or even better yet: Lets make a levelless game for a change. Allow us to level skills to infinity. Take EVE's classless system and expand it to include xp requirements instead of time requirements for skills. Allow the skills to be upgraded through questing, repitition, or gold (or all) indefinately. Sure, in the overall scheme of thigs you are going to have some unbeatable rocks out there versus scissors, but they will have no defense against the ultimate paper. Sure it would be a grind, but it would be your grind, defined by limits set by you.
I always had a serious problem with "The game starts at x lvl." To me that always meant you didn't have the right skills as a game designer to figure out how to make content fun. And it brings up other questions, if your entire leveling span is not "part of the game" as players see it then get rid of it. What's the point of having you got around killing 10 rats, goblins, burglars, thiefs, murderers, etc over and over and over if the content surrounding it is complete rubbish.
http://legalbinary.wordpress.com/ - LegalBinary, were the law and mmorpgs, botting, computers and gaming intersect.
End game could almost be an ironic term on the tombstone of many games. It is one of the things most demanded on the forums of games still in development and yet many players, if not most , never make it to that content. One would think if profit was actually the goal that a desire to keep the majority of players happy and keep them in game long enough to develope attachments would be important. Instead the lofty goal of pleasing a smaller player base of elitist end gamers takes a priority even though they are not paying any more for their sub than average solo questing and occaional grouping joe, and are likely max level in a week or less and moving on their next conquest in less than 4 months. I know the idea of keeping average joe scrambling for the big goal is part of it too but I think devs need to realize that the frustration factor leads to looking for a new game at some point.
I get the feeling sometimes that every dev longs to be a part of that elitist group and that some are. Even if said multi game guild with much influence is really just stringing them along. No names of course LOL.
I've been playing MMOs since UO came out, and my fondest memories are still seated with DAoC. I liked the way pvp, crafting and pve all were interwoven and its community sense was a very palpable presence. Unfortunately, Trials of Atlantis with its forced raiding content to remain competitive in PvP killed the game for me and many others. I've enjoyed WoW, used to raid regularly up till Cata came out and then total burnout set in. Not because the raids were too hard, they're not that hard at all, everything is spelled out for you to do in video tutorials and just requires people to run it a few times to get the timing and routine down, but the treadmill of yet more levels, yet more gear to collect, more epeens to put up with, and pvp being gear>>>player skill/ability.
The problem of WoW (for me), and themepark games in general, is their static content/play style and the very nature of having to cater to the lowest common denominator. It also fostered a very base community who's vitriol spewing and peacock posturing was endless and largely without substance. Sadly, this is the face of the public in the truest sense.
MMOs are no longer about community or journey, they're about gear and bragging/dissing. Something which the themepark model takes to a further extent than others, and sadly, its the model that dominates. But I am faithful that human nature being what it is, the WoW model is closing in on its end. You can only endure so much repetition till you get sick of it, which is why as a former raider, I've become more and more enamored of games with a solid pvp component.
That said though, I don't like static pvp content either, I tried WAR and found it mind numbing as well, too much CC, and just flipping the same old objectives for a few more measely points, oh and...shinies/level > skill. PvP should be about the same things in game that conflict is about in real life, resources that change the lives of the owners for the better.
I.E. Hold castle X and your faction enjoys Y while the enemy factions wish they had it and resent you for holding it and plot to take it away from you. And when a faction is downtrodden and has little hope, they need a mythical legend to unlock within their own region to give them a solid fighting chance, thus a small, tight knit community can topple a teeming horde if they prepare for it and have 'the gods on their side', something that can't happen unless the rival faction has way more presence. Such mythical elements could be permanent and stolen or have a timed duration and then a new one has to be sought out/made, etc.
So much devs could do if they would actually try to design a game with a more to do than repeat the same sort of fight against robots or static models of pvp goals. It'll take time, the market is already showing its impatience and lack of interest in the formats that are out. SWTOR and GW2 may redefine the MMO genre or merely leach away enough money from WoW to where WoW's influence diminishes far enough to where much greater creativity is endorsed. Either way, it may be a while, but the whole static Endgame paradigm is going to change because it cannot sustain itself, human nature goes against it. Don't believe me? Take your favorite food, eat it and nothing else for a year, and at the end of that year, how many more of that type of food do you think you'll buy?
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
I agree with this article as well. I would love to see more sandbox activities included at end game; as well as throughout the game. Raiding is not for me.
A Voice From Within
Seem to be a lot of DOAC fans on this thread. I liked the concept of DOAC but, (braces for the tomatoes to be thrown), I never liked their interface. Te controls and the turn radius and just about everything in the way you interacted with the world felt backwards to me, so sadly I never got to endgame.
My point about thsi thread is that it really comes down to play style. Some people work fast, and live fast, and drive fast. So why wouldn't they play fast? It stands to reason your argument for slowing down and smelling the flowers is really an inditement of the pace at which society moves today. MMO's used to be played but a very narrow cross section of people, very computer and game literate middle and upper class people.
WoW, for better or worse, has changed that. There are a lot of players for whom WoW is their first major gaming experience. They are going to have vastly diffrent ideas from old-timers about where to take the game. IDKY but it reminds me of some of the old people you work with who refuse to become computer literate. I'm sure life was better before the information age, but just the same, I don't want to go back to a life before the internet. lol
I think the misstake here is assuming that one game can make all people happy. Wow tries and even though it have loads more players than anything else P2P many people think leveling is too fast.
There is room for one game with a lot slower leveling and one either with just fast or that starts in the endgame from the start.
The real reason behinds Wows huge success is that it is a well made game. It would still be huge if leveling was very slow as well so pointing on games with slower levelings sub numbers doesn't really prove or dsproves anything.
MMO games needs to be more diverse and stop trying to be everything at once. But they also needs to be well made with good coding.
Even if WoW is your first MMO experience, the game has devolved now to a boring "single-playerish" rush to raiding. Everyone is too busy leveling now to enjoy what the game does have to offer. This causes the leveling journey to seem irrelevant. The developers focused so much time on the end-game content that the social aspect of the game was largely forgotten. I would welcome a new MMO that encouraged a player to interact with other players for some other reason than taking down a raid boss or selling their over priced ore.
I'll post a dissenting standpoint here. Before I get dismissed as a low-IQ gerbil with ADHD, I'll have to say that I've been playing tabletop or PnP RPGs since 1981, I've made my own (successful) Neverwinter Nights server in the roleplay section on GS, and I've participated or built in about a dozen more between NWN1 and NWN2.
Before Monty Haul gets brought up, the only players I DMed who made it up to level 12 were after nearly 2 years of regular game-sessions, under the 2ED rules. I think there was a grand total (in a Forgotten Realms setting) of a dozen magical items between eight players. So I'm pretty frugal, and not at all "item rich" in my playstyle.
As far as MMO experience, I beta tested SWG and played for about 6-7 months, did COH, AOC, EQ2, WOW, LotR beta... more than I can remember, in actual fact. Eve just never appealed to me so I cannot speak for that MMO.
First, let me say that I am not a WOW fanboi. I quit the game due to repetitive gameplay, boring expansion, my friends moving on, me not being able to do an extensive raiding schedule due to wanting a real live girlfriend , and becoming more involved with real life than fantasy.
I personally enjoyed the End-Game in WOW from TBC to WOTLK. I think that there is a misnomer on "end game" in play with WOW - levels ceased, yes. You no longer gained new abilities, and the game switches over to gear-based rewards.
Funny thing, I actually stopped playing WOW on my Druid at the exact same level as the author did during Vanilla. I had even done some "raiding" (as it was in vanilla) in LBRS.
Gear acquisition, in and of itself, is not the be-all and end all of "end game". "End game" is simply where you ceased being fodder for higher-level gankers and could hold your own against most comers.
Your "levels" still increased in many other ways. Increasing faction standing with different groups was one area to "improve your abilities" - albeit only from gear which wasn't available otherwise.
Gathering or grinding gold still took you to different locales, especially if you collected components or resources for sale on the AH. Some of the more meaningful interactions with other players (even opposing faction) occurred on such trips.
Increasing honor standing and PVP skills (either in World PVP or BGs) was another method of earning tokens and better gear, having social interactions and getting a group of like-minded people together for group BGs, etc. Quite often, some RP would occur (well, as much as can be done within WOW - which is pretty poor).
I could go on, but raiding in and of itself was one piece of the end-game. One which I enjoyed quite well, becoming the 5th best healer on a rather large PVP server - and we were the second-ranked progression guild. I put in perhaps 10-15 hours a week and was relied on quite a bit for this progression - mainly for the 10-man and 25-man heroics. Beating bosses which few others had beaten, and getting the spoils, were of course part of the fun.
I believe the "achiever" metatype has been brought up, and one might categorize me based off of my post above - but above all, I'd say I'm an explorer with a bit of socializer thrown in. I didn't revel in what gear I got so much as seeing the content. Many times I passed on stuff that was only a slight improvement over my current gear, but that was a drastic improvement for a new guildie. But seeing some of the instances which were beautifully crafted, exploring the encounters and figuring out the best way for my healers to keep people alive during them, all these things made this enjoyable.
That above being said, I don't particularly enjoy the development direction, and I do agree with the statements above about the next Xpack making the previous achievements basically useless. There were other problems with the game as well, such as the simplicity of graphics, interaction between factions being retardedly limited, PVP objectives being extremely short-sighted. Everything was just getting pigeon-holed into tightly regimented activities by the time Cata was about to be released, and with the departure of many friends over time, I also left.
However, for me, the "end-game" was fun, and I still "leveled" - just not in the traditional sense. Whether they just turn the "item-leveling" into straight XP leveling or not, or the "faction-leveling" into straight XP or not, it really (from a mechanics point of view) doesn't make a difference.
For example, in COH, the end game (there was none, really) was possibly getting all Hamidon-SOs in your power slots. Hitting level 50 back in the first days was a bit of a chore, not easy in the slightest, and was more akin ot EQ (until E5 or so). However, it was, when you boil it down, the exact same mechanics in play as in WOW - you just hit a numbered level cap later.
What WOW did was take the leveling grind which existed in all other games, shotrtened it, and subverted the remaining ~10 or so levels to gear, factions and honor. A WOW player who had Tier 10/11 gear, who had maxxed factions and had tons of honor points (i.e. PVP experience) couldn't be beaten by a fresh level 80 (going back to WOTLK). It just wasn't possible - said player was equivalent to a level 90 player, and was pretty much out of danger if he had a modicum of wit or intelligence. Even as a clothie playing my Shadow Priest, a level 80 undead rogue in green/blue gear had to have incredible skill and luck to take me down.
Forgive my rambling here, but I think an obvious point was missed by most of the posters here. "The game begins at 60" as most used to say, was true. It's just a different model of "leveling" than exists in the previous MMOs. And it was insanely successful - not due to raiders, or twitch PVPers, or anything else than...
Anyhow, I just think being elitist over the raiders isn't becoming. Looking at it in such a sandbox "the numbers represent the level" light really does limit the understanding of the mechanics, and I'm surprised that so many people don't think out of the box on this.
The "end game" kept everyone busy, just like EQ/SWG/COH, and for about the same amount of time to hit "the cap". The trouble is, the game never ended, and there was always iLevel 200 just around the corner - but without the other methods of "leveling" being increased (with the exception of PVP). And the fact that the raiding content itself became too accessible, unaccessible, too accessible, etc. etc.
I also sort of long to see a story-arc MMO (which I think TOR may end up doing) where the journey is more important than the destination. But don't fool yourself - Blizz was brilliant at extending the journey.
From a dissenting point of view, I hope this opens up some vistas and insight, especially since this seems to have escaped most of the posters (and certainly the author).
I remember Age of Conan that had people screaming after like a week from release for more endgame, i got one char to 80 in aoc thanks to offline leveling but i do prefer the fun getting there, not much for raiding so once at max level game feels bit over to me.
I have played everquest and anarchy online since mid 2001 on and of but not even close to max level, but i don't mind.
Great article. I agree with you. My best MMO experience was my first with EQ back in 1999. I was never worried about end-game. It was the journey leveling up and exploring that I enjoyed most.