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player generated content based mmo's
Henchdwarf
Member UncommonPosts: 517
i have been seeing a lot of posts flirting with this concept lately. i really think this will be a major breakthrough for the industry.
i dont mean player programmed content, just a game whose design is made to offer a world building feature for all players to tinker with.
this would perfectly combine RTS and MMO style games, as some players would excell at world building and content implemenation.
players could choose to either create their own world, be it a planet, or a maze, or a giant city etc OR create a player avatar in the world created by someone, as per the specs of their avatar creation system.
this would take alot of heat off of devs when players get nerd rage over some change. creating worlds to be persistant and dynamic, or in other case highly specialized and limited, depending on the tastes and intent of the world builder, would be a never ending winner.
any thoughts on such a game? id love this idea to ignite. i havent been on the forums much lately, so if this a repeat of an old idea, plz forgive me, and post your ideas anyway.
Comments
I give a thumbs up to this concept.
Second Life already utilizes this approach, and the people that play it love it.
Unfortunately, like most things we see in the gaming world these days, it comes down to profitability.
Games like this would be considered sandbox, and right now, sandbox isn't where investors seem to want to put their money.
I, for one, really think this would be the step to take in achieving that ever-fleeting term "next gen gaming"
For instance, if you play with the Augmented Reality feature of the new nintendo 3DS handheld, you will notice that they subtly suggested this approach to gaming. Instead of spending high amounts of dollars and resources on having the developers create content, they offer interractive ability to content that already exists: the real world. You play your games as usual, on the handheld device's screen, and the 3D camera lenses on the outside show you the world around you, while the software overlays the content on to that world. This concept can be taken so far imo.
Imagine if you will, instead of running predetermined content, such as quests that take place in X zone, you instead run quests that you or your friends created, and the location of said quests would be your own backyard, or the school your kids go to, or even your kitchen, all on screen, digitally overlayed with the game that you're currently playing.
Just a thought I've been playing with since I bought one, but I think it's relavent to your post here, OP. Player generated content and/or real life generated content = never ending content, without much need for constant expansion packs.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
In your OP, I'm assuming you refer to player generated content as giving players the ability to basically "create" adventures or scenarios for other players using some in game tools. These player would basically have "god" powers in the creation of these scenarios or adventures, and would not have to spend in-game currency to do so. Is this correct? Please clarify if I'm wrong.
Anyway, I love this general idea, but I think there are a lot of challenges that you need to overcome to do it correctly. One of which is:
Simplicity and dullness versus complexity and intrigue:
I'm referring to the tool itself here. When the developers design the world building tool, they have to choose how simple or how complex they will make it. If they make it overly simple, much like how most RTSes work (put buildings/monsters down etc.), players won't be able to make their adventures that interesting. They will be dull. After all, who wants to just walk through 5000 random dungeons with pre-generated monsters placed at random places by players?
On the other hand, they can make it very complex, allowing interesting things like programming. This will allow players to create scenarios that are fun and intriguing, but only the most talented, technically skilled, and dedicated players can do it. This also will feel very much like work
.
So the question is, is there a happy medium here? Can a developer create a world design system that is both accessible enough for anyone to use and remain fun, but powerful enough to create truly interesting adventures? I don't think it's been done yet.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I think its a great idea. I was a big fan of the aurora toolkit for nwn when it was new many years ago and I think it can really work. But here is how I see it realistically working: The game comes with a tool to build maps, players are then encouraged to submit their maps/scenarios in some sort of contest(s) and winners of the contest would get some props(or money?) and then that world would be included into the persistent world of the game for everyone to be able to explore. This would allow for devs to build more content, keep the world evolving and at the same time take the game in all kinds of interesting directions.
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We've had many games with the Neverwinter approach that are just lobbies and instances. Those are fine and fun, but not really very good at creating that MMOG experience. IMO the real revolution will be when content generating players can expand on an existing game world rather than creating their own part of a game seperate from everyone else.
A rating system is the first building block and is pretty much the standard anyway. Seamlessly integrating the best content into a cohesive game world is next and I wonder when that will happen.
Wont play it.
99% of the player created content is crap. I tried that on the old NWN, and dungeon siege. It is like 1 in a 1000 is worth spending time on.
Thanks and no thanks.
That's what I was refering to. Not players creating their own world separate from everyone else but rather players creating their own lands/scenarios/whatever and the ones that are good enough get included into the persistent world. Obviously this doesn't take all the work off the devs since they would need to revise the submissions for imbalances and such but it definitely would help and it will bring a lot more creative designs than what any single one dev team can accomplish.
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Have you tried the persistant worlds? While modules do tend to be lacking on average, however persistant worlds are much better as their is a team working there vs individuals in modules who are more likely trying to get there name out there. Like one guy who created an awesome storyline of a trilogy module, but never finished the last one cause he was all frustrated that he didn't get any job offers in the gaming industry.
I say players can put out as good quality if not better content than devs. Course this prolly is only in the case of D&D or similar DM games. You've seen how much of the player base can provide solutions to problems but hte Dev's never listen or won't impliment it for some strange reason even though it's perfectly sound to do so and the entire community supports it.
They would probably have to hire a professional Dungeon Master team who can decide what happens to a party of players, based on how good they play together, similar to the Left 4 Dead series, but with real people making the choices for the party, instead of a calculated program.
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I still think that Neverwinter Nights had an amazing concept with the editor that came with it. You could actually play dungeon master on the fly in the worlds that were created, to me NWN1 and 2 came closest to the PnP RP of any online games - I meant the editors of NWN1/2, not the games themselves.
They should have continued on the idea with an evolved NWN3 editor. Can you imagine all kinds of player created worlds linked up together, where your character could wander from one server world to another server world? Something like Forgotten Realms or Rifts (not Rift) but then player created. You could make it even so that the most detailed and best fleshed out player created realms got linked into 1 massive conglomerate of worlds that contained the best creations and ideas that people managed to build.
It'd be the first player created MMORPG. A shame they didn't continue further into that design direction.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Any MMOs that are doing this? I've never seen a player created zone in an MMO. Would be cool to check out.
City of Heroes lets players create missions that other players can run through
http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/game_updates/issue_14/issue_14_overview.html
altho I guess that fall more into the lobby style instances
Tale in the Desert is an evolving "player made" world mmo
http://www.atitd.com/
EQ2 fan sites
well, it could even be built into the lore of a game itself. ie-perhaps the game is set in the palace of the Gods, and the players have gained entry to a hall with a thousand rooms... it would ultamately lead to maps and menu's, or the option to log into a player made world as a character limited by that creator.
i think this would a very easy concept to implement. and in terms of the various player made world being interesting...it would be a simple matter of strongest survive. if you see a door/portal/server/shard/dungeon etc with only 3 people in it, and some immaturely written description, dont bother entering.
ive known hundreds of mmo players, usually the more seriously minded rpgers would chomp at the bit to put time and care into a world and story written to interact with live players and players groups.
keeping a multitude of options is the key. let things like perma death, quest base vs sand box, harvestable resource nodes, etc all be toggleable features chosen at the first stages of world creation.
id have a hard time STOPPING comming up with new themes and crazy world concepts. this would pretty much let anyone in the world create their dream mmo, and let it stand up to the onslaught of players tastes.
Thanks for the links!
Don't forget STO's Foundry, also a User Content Generation tool
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In the early years of Ultima Online (1997-2003), Seers (players with limited GM tools) often helped get player-run venues and establishments set up. These could range from things such as a populated tavern to entire cities.
In 2004, Puzzle Pirates allowed players to create the islands that would be used in the new server they were opening.
In Jan 2008, when PotBS was released, most of its ships were created by players. Ships, sails and flags have continually been made by players ever since.
The biggest argument against allowing player created content is that even if you found the 10 percent or so that aren't generating utter crap, the art styles, theme and direction of their work would be so varied that they would need to be kept completely separate in order to not look like.. .well, that other 90%
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Some random info:
I was on the Interest team in Ultima Online (all volunteer teams were dissolved in 2002). Interest team were given extra accounts that were flagged with paticular elevated powers. After a Seer went through training besides running events they would often look for an active rp town to "bless". That process actually went through IGM's (interest game masters). The Seer would make a request and the IGM would let them know if it was possible. IGM's were paid employees of Origin Systems/EA. Our powers were pretty similar to the smurfs (blue robes ;p) but with the added ability to spawn npc's. Elders and Ancients could spawn more things.
I had entire notebooks full of events I created and can honestly say I had more fun in UO on the interest team.. than I did as a player.
On a more related note I believe CoH had some ability for players to create some kind of mission (or maze?) for other players to play. There was also another game that shut down for a while but I believe is running again... skill based game .. that has an ability for players to do this as well. Sadly I can't remember the name of it...
As far as player created content and the art quality. I don't really know that I've ever heard a comment along those lines. The major issue is that *cough* people have a habit of making sexually related art pieces. So you need to heavily moderate anything a player can import into the game world. Most MMO's actually take part in the esrb system and want to appeal to a wide audience (family).
Second Life always comes to mind. In SL there are some amazing artists and scripters and they make a lot of real world money there. That said much of the biggest selling items are nothing you would ever see in a main stream MMO... I have a friend that still does art work and textures in SL. They make a few thousand dollars a month there but as you say there is a lot of total crap as well.
I've often thought that they should allow people to make animation kits and texture kits. Which would allow a player to purchase new animation sets for their character or replace their armor/weapon textures (as example). These could be sold on something similar to station exchange and the company would take a cut just like ebay does.
Ah! A fellow Seer or an IGM? Either way, good to meet another old-school UOer!
Second Life is a great example of letting players run lose with zone/world building, Kaneva, There and vMTV also allowed a certain amount of freedom and content creation although I think Kaneva is the only one of those three still around.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
While I agree with a lot of the OP; I'd prefer to see it done using player resources rather than a "god" mode. As an example, a player (or group) builds a bar with their characters' resources, hiring npc guards/staff etc who have various behaviors based on random traits and some controlling skills of the "owner" character; the bar owner also sets things like the rules and prices the bar operates on. The bar and employees then interact with their surroundings in a "sims"-like fashion, pulling in npc activity as well as hopefully PCs for various reasons. Depending on how it goes (and creating various dilemmas and possibly mini quests for the bar creator along the way) it might become a center for gambling, job offers, fences, group recruiters etc or devolve in a dive known for bar fights every night.
If successful, running the place gains the creator revenue, skill gain or experience in managing and if patronized by PCs, some form of "karma" points that the player could either use to offset his sub fee, buy cosmetic perks or something of the sort.
Both ideas have their own merits.
I would love to have a game with guild created and owned dungeons. The guild could get a score depending on how hard the dungeon is. Craft traps, hire in monsters (and possibly possess them as well) and similar things would create an endless bundle of fun.
As for player owned stores I prefer them in guild (or guild alliance) cities where players could stock up for their merchants, have competions and tournaments with other guilds and similar fun.
Player created content can be really fun and also creates an endgame for people who don't like raids and battlegrounds. That both goes for player/guild owned things and player created instances.
Yeah, it would be really neat to be able to link WoW to City of Heroes, Warhammer, EQ, etc etc. Not exactly sure how EvE or Pirates of the Burning Sea would work with that, though. I would hate to exclude them.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Player-created content already exists in games and it never works out well. The vast majority of players don't care about creativity, they just want to be a powerful/rich/awesome as possible and when given the ability to make their own content, will skip right to whatever gives them the best loot quickest. Just look at the AE system in CoX. Terrible idea, that was.
Second Life allows something similar but a lot of programming knowledge is necessary to create the actual gameplay mechanics, and unless you can make a world yourself you'll be spending a lot of money getting someone to make it, not to mention you'll need to rent the world (island) and something of any decent amount of size to feel like an interactive world would run you thousands per month, in real life cash not ingame cash.
If you mean creating a system that gives players the tools and then gives them freedom from then on, that's what Unreal SDK is for. It's essentially just that, and game designers have been using it to create their games for a while now.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Me, My friends, and all their friends enjoy the exact same content. I'm sure everyone who posts in this thread also enjoys the exact same content as all of us.
This means that all player generated content is as good as professional dev created content.
I don't think all "player created content" would be good, but then that is true of "dev created content" as well. My ideal sort of game would have a world where players could establish permanent "living" presences in game using game-provided tools and where the devs had set strong thematic and mechanics limits in place.
Consider SWG for example and the great "problem" of unused/abandoned buildings all over the landscape..if those buildings had actually decayed (in appearance as well) via game mechanics and become lairs/hideouts for bandits and wildlife then they would have been "content" instead of wasted space and eyesores.
I think player generated content is the wrong approach - it introduces problems of quality control, moderation and balance. Second Life is not a good example because it isn't really a game.
My approach would be to focus on a network of player-influenced simulations/minigames. Treat the outcome of each player's game as the input for some other player's game. Someone wants to be an explorer? Let them explore new randomly generated maps. These are then passed off to settlers to terraform and colonize. These are then passed off to PvP warlords or PvE questers protecting their little realm.
Let deapth and balance be emergent rather than scripted.