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Oh No!! PvE is getting Dumb Down!!! oh wait,,,, I like Sandbox MMORPGs
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I seen many complaints that modern day MMORPG are having their PvP Dumb Down.
Well this may be true. But I see the very same people asking for Sandbox MMO. I made a thread before on the topic of PvE in Sandbox.
I ask again,, What does PvE in Sandbox consist of, that isnt Crafting?
Seems like Crafting/Gathering in a Sandbox is the only main form PvE. Does that make PvE in Sandbox MMO more "Dumb Down" than most Themepark MMORPGs?
if so,, is "Dumbing down" the PvE really such a bad thing?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
even quests or minigames are just tools in a sandbox. there is much more than gathering an crafting in a full blown sandbox so yes, the basic assumption of the OP is wrong.
dumbing down PVE is a bad thing for me, but not for the companies revenue, because the paying masses are dumbed down themselves.
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Iam not arguing your definition of Sandbox MMORPG, but I question your view of what is meaningful PvE. If you claim not to like "Dumbed Down" content, than how is it you have no complaints about Sandbox PvE?Sandbox MMORPG have no class trinity nor roles besides combat ranges, which leads all PvE into Zerg tactics. How come this doesn't fit into your "Dumb Down" category? What else is left to PvE? Crafting and Gathering. That takes much skill right?
Maybe I am taking this new term "Dumb Down" too literally. Can you explain to me how themepark MMORPG has dumb down PvE but how this rule somehow doesn't apply to Sandbox PvE that you ask for so much?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
hey you mind explaining? I only ask because I am confused by what PvE is considered not "Dumb Down" in sandbox MMORPG. What are these other PvE elements that aren't "Dumb Down" in sandbox MMORPG?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
In a true Sandbox game the player chooses where to go and what to do. In a Themepark game the game decides for the player by putting a big arrow in the game saying, "Go here and do this!". This is what most refer to as 'dumbing down' the content. The game makes almost all the decisions for the player so the player has little to actually think about.
So no, in a Sandbox the PvE is completely player devised and generated whereas in a Themepark the game makes all those decisions for you. Both types can be fun but the Sandbox approach has a lot more longevity as players can always devise new ways to use the tools the designers give them.
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I must disagree. PvE is simply a way to tell a story and have the player interact with it.
Just because a game has a story doesnt mean it is not a sandbox.
My life is a sandbox and I encounter numerous stories throughout the day, all of which dictate to some extent the decisions I make. Does this mean my life is a themepark adventure?
A sandbox is simply a game that does not force you to do anything. However, I believe there are also degrees to this in terms of statistical values as it relates to the quantifiable factors of mmo characteriistics.
The idea of no PvE, or rather, game created PvE is simply a lack of production on that part by the developer. To say it cannot have it is putting restrictions on something that only exists due to its lack of restrictions. paradox.
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
The reasons giving on how "sandbox" PvE isn't dumbed down are just absurb. There is little to no REAL PvE content, and any PvE content is either grinding mobs, or killing a big mob. Boss fights? Different mechanics for mobs? lol. But sandbox games really don't have big, epic encounters. My only thought behind why some say it's not dumbed down, is because "they image that mob they are fighting has mechanics, that it's hard, and that it's part of the story they created"?
I'm all for calling crafting / gathering dumbed down in SOME themeparks. Vanguard, EQ2 don't seem that dumbed down to me in that area.
I'm glad I'm not the only person to notice this. But what's the point of bringing it up. Minds won't be changed.
OP should go checkout some mmo's like Eve Online, Fallen Earth, EQ2, LOTRO, SWG or Vanguard, for the pvp elements that work for sandbox checkout DAOC.
And for a new AAA mmo thats coming out and getting it right checkout ArcheAge.
http://www.aaportal.net/en/
God I can't wait for ArcheAge to come to North America!
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
btw, you keep putting 'dumb down' in quotes... where are you quoting this from? Who said this?
I personally do not think themeparks are any 'dumber' then sandbox in truth, at least not good ones. and I certainly think we need to remove the barriers between sandbox and themepark and avoid setting fans of both against each other by polarising the debate like this. I happen tolike both models (if done well), and I don't mind thempark in my sandbox and vice versa at all.
For example... Classic Everquest is a themepark, but it isnt dumb, nor is Vanguard which is also a themepark (with sandbox elements). Themepark dosent have to be dumb, a lot of devs just choose it to be.
absolutely, the new vids I have been seeing just make me want more
i will live in ArcheAge!
All the videos the players are putting up on youtube, the game just looks amazing!
Has the perfect social/sandbox elements with the right themepark mixture and it even looks to be handling pvp right.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
look... 'meaningful' is subjective. what is meaningful to me obviously isnt meaningful to you, so ofc your going to question it (if you lack objectivity)
what else is there in sandbox PvE besides spoonfed quests? Really, are we still talking about this in 2011? And from a thread made by a spotlight poster no less
The other elements, for example, could include territorial control of land, including (as in what Archeage promises) via diplomacyor force, it could be to allow trading across the world via caravan in order to set up merchant empires, it could be exploring and map making, or even writing your own books to put in the city library (EQ2 has books, as will Archeage again). It could offer these and much much more, imagination is the key here.
But the point that you ar emissing here is that sandbox play isnt defined by the tools on offer, they are just tools. A true 100% sandbox 'game' is really a toy.
What you constantly call 'dumbed down' others call a lack of ability to define their world and self determination to make their own story (and for some social co-operation/ interaction).
I really don't understand that trend: themepark is bad or good because blabla; sandbox is bad/good because blabla.
They both refer to different personalities, as much creator than player personality. You have exactly the same concepts in all the entretaining domains. You also have that in movies, literature, tv show and all the rest. Some product are mean for people that want a bit more intelectual chalenge, other is meant for people that just want to relax without thinking much. I mean it doesn't make one superior to the other; it just aim for other needs. Its like comparing chess to checkers games, or comparing stupid card games with bridge like kind of card games. Some people will prefer one over the other, but they will probably play both.
Somtime you will really want some pve or pvp challenge, sometime you will just want a win button to relax and pass the time. This exist in both sandbox and thempark its just that overall sandbox are more brainy than themepark, thats all. The fact it is more brainy cover everything, pvp as well as pve, but it doesn't mean one is better than the other in fact, and it is just a tendancy. A themepark might have some boos fight that are more chalenging than a sandbox, but overall the sandbox will try to create more challenge. But once more challenge is not always what you will need when playing a computer game.
I personally prefer more chalenging games, i'll rather play go or chess than checker or anyof my kids games. i still play stupid games with my kids and have a good laught about it with them.
PvP? I said PvE. Why is it when the term Sandbox come up, the topic of PvP always come up. Points to my understanding that sandbox MMORPG always are PvP focused, and the PvE is always second naturePhilosophy of MMO Game Design
If we are going to suggest that sndboxes require critical thinking beyond the level of themepark games, it would be best to support this claim with some evidence.
As it stands now, the leaders in the sandbox community are darkfall and mortal online. The only time I had to think while playing them is to either learn the interface, or figure out what I was supposed to do. And not like interesting things to do, like where to and how to grind to raise my skills. Not much story behind the grind other than raising my skills.
Where exactly does the critical thinking come into play?
To the caterpillar it is the end of the world, to the master, it is a butterfly.
combat is just one of the tools that a dev might choose to put into his sandbox tookit, it dosent define sandbox.
go look at A Tale in the Desert for an example.
I think you missed the point or it went over your head.
I'm just saying that DAOC has some the best pvp/rvr ever and that if an mmo is to have pvp all they have to do is look to DAOC for how it should be done.
As for community driven economy that the players control look to Eve Online or the first 6 months of what EQ2 did.
And for crafting, guild/player housing, social elements/mechanics/mini games look to games like EQ2/VG/LOTRO/FE/SWG
some of the social stuff done in SWG and VG were outstanding! LOTRO and EQ2 touch on some of this but really need to give it more attention and flesh it out
A mmo needs more for its community to do than just kill mobs and run dungeons... it's time developers stop being lazying.
ArcheAge, World of Darkness and EQ3 will bring in a new era of mmo's.
PS: lets just hope Bioware and Blizz take notice and really bring some innovation with their new mmo's. (ToR & Titan)
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
I would prefer DAOC over Darkfall.
And also feel that Fallen Earth, EQ2,VG, SWG and LOTRO and Eve Online are much better sandbox mmo's than Darkfall.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
No they are not, Darkfall, Mo is as much sandbox as was Lineage2 at his time, they are not real sandbox to me at least, and if they are for some then they are just very bad. They are more the kind of mix sandbox/themepark people is talking about. If you want good sandbox and want to take their leaders as exemple, then go play Ultima online or Eve, those are the "leaders". They are few other real sandbox too, but they are more underground games.
Those games have fully player driven content, from rp to economy, comunities and so on. Those games need a lot more brain power for sure, if you don't beleive me go try them. The simple fact those games are ffa will make you think twice before doing something dump i can assure you. If you can't see that then you are just trolling.
In any case you must think to survive usually in those game, themepark have zero survival aspect. Same for character progression the choice are already made in a themepark, at the opposite in a sandbox you will probably not do very weel if you go pvp with your farmer. Need more?
Just an edit because the op talk about pve i will give a pve exemple. In a thempark you will probably have goblins or orc, or any other mobs in fact have no structure at all. they will probaby be there one each square meter. In a sandbox orcs and goblin will rpobably be pack mobs, so they will be linked behind a fort for exemple or any location where they will be in high density. That would be an exemple of how different pve would be in those games.
But i can give a better exemple, in a sandbox you have no level, so you will have to find by your own if you can actually kill that orc by yourself. There will not be a color over his head telling you if you have the proper level to kill him. But really i could unfold a lot more.
Just because there is no roles to be seen, no specific healer or tank - doesn't mean there isn't a guy with a skill set moulded to that of taking the damage. Sandbox games have aggro, healers, skills for tanking and skills for DPS.
A true sandbox player wants top notch pve (thats great mob AI, diverse mobs, unique settings and interesting ways of killing them.) to think otherwise is foolishness, then again I cannot speak for every player in the world; some people don't want any mobs at all!
You really need to drop your vendetta against those who long for a sandbox MMO, every thread you start champions the themepark and slanders the sandbox.
I think part of the problem OP is the general way of thinking of players that play themepark vs sandbox. When I played LOTRO, my interaction with others was purely up to me. I could do anything in game solo. I could PvE, craft, explore, etc solo. Upon logging in, the first thing I did was check my quest log, and see what gold rings I needed to finish. Whether this is a bad thing or something that many people like isn't important.
On the other hand, when I log into EvE, I see how many more days/hours I have left on my current skill training. Tbh, that isn't that important. I never log out needing to finish a mission/quest...so I know I don't need to check on it. I check my buy/sell orders which is similiar to the AH in LOTRO. However, I also log into TS/Vent and find out what THE GROUP is doing. Sometimes, I get a phone call/text...and am requested to log in if i'm available...we call that persistent universe. I like the different tools such as mining, killing npcs for loot, missioning, crafting, etc but....the most important thing is what is going on with my GROUP. Sometimes we are under attack..and that means there will be no crafting, missioning, etc...it means I have to either engage in PvP, or we are a man short.
Please don't confuse PvE or crafting or whatever as being dumb or easy. It is fairly easy in every game. It's the importance of it. When I used to play City of Heroes...I never cared about defending anything, I was only concerned about completing my next quest. Is this making sense? Themepark games raise the importance of only one or two things in the game. Sandbox MMO's, at least the ones with PvP, helps put these in perspective..b/c they are only tools to start with.
I don't see that as a bad thing, nor if I played a themepark and really enjoyed it...why it would be a bad thing. It's just a difference in the PLAYERS mindset.
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
Actually the undisputed leader in the sandbox community is EVE. Its defenintely a game that requires some critical thinking. Everything from the flow of goods and services to the skill system to the complex web of corperations and how they interact. Its light years (
) beyond the leading themepark games.
There are more critical decisions in sandbox games. I've seen a huge number of people get into one of these games and ask "What am I supposed to be doing?" After explaining their options they are usually even worse off than before because they aren't used to making decisions about what they want to do. Like watching TV, sometimes its easier to just go with the flow of the programming without having to make decisions about what exactly to do next. Some people don't handle decisions well. They want to be told what to do and then go do it.
I think it's more than just this.
Yes, as a sandbox gamer I want a good PvE experience.
But, I also want a good crafting experience, a good prospecting experience (gathering), a good merchant experience, etc.
For me anyways, I want more than just combat to be fully viable way to play the game. In themepark MMOs, nearly every single other part of the game supports the combat part of the game, which leaves several gameplay experiences lacking. Sometimes I feel like killing stuff, but sometimes I also feel like creating stuff, or actually trading with players, or setting up a vendor and keeping it stocked. In themepark MMOs these days, even those experiences are extremely dumbed down if they even exist.
EVE does have a complex community at its edges, but for people in the core, it has very little in the way of PvE sandbox elements - the content has very little variety and is mostly just a collection of scripted encounters. There are many admirable qualities to the design, but it is far from being my ideal sandbox.
Er, don't EVE and FE have terrible and dull PVE? That was my experience anyway. Maybe FE wasn't totally dull, but still not something I'd recommend to someone looking for good PVE.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver