Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
/thread
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
Topics at MMORPG.com's General Discussion have gone to crap since WoW came out.
How about we have the 1 milionth thread about how WoW has ruined the genre for this or that reason? Because Everquest, Ultima Online, and Meridian 59 had nothing to do with it. DAOC was the golden age of MMORPGs.
I wonder sometimes if you guys really play MMORPGs or your just epic trolls.
Granted, the WoW model is old and im ready for something new. But people have beaten the WoW discussion to death on these forums. It was beaten to death in 2008.
Its 2011.
I have a better idea. Lets make another MMO theme park. With a health and mana bar in the top left with a picture of your avatar inside of a circle.
Topics at MMORPG.com's General Discussion have gone to crap since WoW came out.
How about we have the 1 milionth thread about how WoW has ruined the genre for this or that reason? Because Everquest, Ultima Online, and Meridian 59 had nothing to do with it. DAOC was the golden age of MMORPGs.
I wonder sometimes if you guys really play MMORPGs or your just epic trolls.
Granted, the WoW model is old and im ready for something new. But people have beaten the WoW discussion to death on these forums. It was beaten to death in 2008.
Its 2011.
I have a better idea. Lets make another MMO theme park. With a health and mana bar in the top left with a picture of your avatar inside of a circle.
Great idea! We can call it Threads of the World! We can rehash the same power struggle lore, have two factions with a common enemy and everyone fighting everyone, and nifty Cheesements! We can even teach our players the power of reading comprehension!
WoW has set an unfortunate standard in the MMO industry. We will never see a game like SWG Pre-cu because of WoW's success. I am not going to lick blizzard's ass because they made millions dumbing down a MMORPG to cater to the masses. Now we will always have dumbed down simpleton MMOs because other game devs feel this is the direction they should go. What for? If players have done it 10 billion times before, why the hell would you do something that EQ or WOW has already done?
I have no idea what the developers of Rift were thinking, they think because you they have little purple portals that spawns from the air with monsters coming out of it...it's different. No it isn't...it justs a stupid public raid that yet again WE HAVE ALREADY DONE. People with their swords and sorcery all surrounding this big monster and trying to compete for l00t. Awesome..real fun! This is a horrible time for MMOs...the next few years will only have WoW clones being released. Flame me all you want but they will all be WoW clones.
Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
I agree with a lot of what you have to say.
Then again, I play Mortal Online because it does give me the type of play experience most other games don't. It's not perfect, but has gotten a LOT better over time. I really enjoy a sandbox experience the most, so I'll stick with it.
Still, even WoW itself has changed, which is a further reflection on the direction mainstream MMOs have gone. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is different from where it started.
Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
This is a fallacy. A game hasn't been released yet that compares with your initial SWG experience.
WoW has set an unfortunate standard in the MMO industry. We will never see a game like SWG Pre-cu because of WoW's success. I am not going to lick blizzard's ass because they made millions dumbing down a MMORPG to cater to the masses. Now we will always have dumbed down simpleton MMOs because other game devs feel this is the direction they should go. What for? If players have done it 10 billion times before, why the hell would you do something that EQ or WOW has already done?
I have no idea what the developers of Rift were thinking, they think because you they have little purple portals that spawns from the air with monsters coming out of it...it's different. No it isn't...it justs a stupid public raid that yet again WE HAVE ALREADY DONE. People with their swords and sorcery all surrounding this big monster and trying to compete for l00t. Awesome..real fun! This is a horrible time for MMOs...the next few years will only have WoW clones being released. Flame me all you want but they will all be WoW clones.
No need to flame, but i do disagree. I think that games like TOR, GW2, Secret World will bring alot to the table in the mmo genre. Like it or not, since you mentioned SWG, even though TOR has elements of traditional gameplay, the game will offer alot more than what WOW has ever brought to the table. The same can be said for GW2. The other game will bring even more with no classes and the skill systems they incorporate.
WOW is not a horrible game by any means. It just became the biggest because it launched with alot of content and was very polished. there have been many afterwards that swayed away from what WOW offered and didn't do poorly because of that, but didn't do well because they were buggy and unfinished with little content.
It's easy for a lot of people to throw around the WOW clone phrase, when talking about another game that has been released or being released in the future. What they don't understand is that, there are other games on the market that offer much different gamplay than WOW or other themepark games.
You even said yourself there will never be another game like SWG pe-cu. I say why not play SWG as it is right now. Even though it has condensed alot of the origional profession's it still has the best crafting out there, plus the space game, as well as the freedom to place house's and build cities. On top of that it offers more content than it ever had before during any incarnation.
I also remeber correctly, since you mentioned all we have now is people standing around killing the big monster for 100t. Well, i remember back in the day standing around with two full 20 man groups of guildmates fighting ancient krayts for hours on end to just try and get some scales and a pearl. Not that much different from what you are tired of in these so called WOW clones.
I guess what i'm saying is that, the games coming out will change the genre, and i think for the better.
Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
This is a fallacy. A game hasn't been released yet that compares with your initial SWG experience.
You may be correct. Since i am a longtime SW nerd, i can only hope TOR will give me that feeling. I can say that because when i started SWG i didn't know what sandbox or thempark even meant. All i knew was that i could pay and play a game that was SW until i stopped payment. Nothing else mattered.
It seems that it is indie developers that are able to push boundaries in the MMO world for the next decade. Major developers will shy away from the risks, which is actually makes a lot of sense considering how expensive bets these games are and how long it takes to make them.
That's usually how the markets work. The big players have too much red tape, worrying about stock price, investors and board members to really make risky moves. This doesn't just apply to the game market, you hardly see innovation come from larger well established companies. The only exception I can think of is google, and they base their entire company around innovation such to the point that one day of each week people can work on their own projects.
Kind of talks about what happens when a studio actually decides to do something different, whether some might like it or not.
The problem with this whole discussion, which we've already had thousands of times before is that it has already been discussed to death thousands of times before video games were even invented.
Whether it be movies, music or books, when something becomes popular the more experimental offerings become "less".
This is nothing new.
There are games out there that are different. They aren't perfect and some have serious flaws. But they are there.
If players don't play them then what happens is that the games that are played, and played a LOT, will get investement dollars.
This is always the way it will be.
Whether people like it or not. Movies, music, TV, books, clothes (yeah clothing styles are affected as well) and anything else where the major part of the populace decides where the bucks go will be affected.
These discussions on art and music and literature, where some simplification was involved have gone on looooong before the 19th and 20th centuries.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
This is just my opinion but i do not think mmos took a crap. There communities did. All people do is complain about the same things everytime a new mmo comes out. Like rift, it functions like wow but respictivly is completely diiferent. Global agenda is something new, why does this not have millions of players. Got to realise this is the same with everything. Like fps games, whats so different about most of them?
Anyone else think that mmorpg's have pretty much gone to crap since wow came out? Since its came out almost all orignal devolopment has pretty much stopped and every dev tries to make a copy of wow with its linear themepark like gameplay insted of trying their own thing. Rift is a prime example, its bascally WoW exactly in a diffrent skin, its also starting to or rather has been effecting f2p titles badly too. look at RoM, Allods etc.
I used to be a diehard mmorpg fan, but now a days no mmo interests me because they all feel way to much like wow, or rather like "I've done this in the last X amount of mmo's its just not fun anymore"
What I'd like to know is why don't the devs get the hint? People are sick of wow-themepark clones and are dying for something that at least tries to be orignal. Mind you this is pretty hard to do, but TBH i'd love to see a game like Auto Assault made by a AAA dev team, would be something great if its done right.
Anyone else feel this way? When I look at GW2 SW:ToR I just can't seem to get excited since they both just sound like the same crap over again in a diffrent wrapper.
"Anyone else feel this way? When I look at GW2 SW:ToR I just can't seem to get excited since they both just sound like the same crap over again in a diffrent wrapper."
I don't think you've been keeping up with those two. GW2 espacially is brining quite a few new ideas. No trinity. Anyone can raise. Extensive VO. I have not seen these in any MMO.
So ... The game studios should leave Blizzard alone with their cash cow, even if Blizzard gets greedy and lazy. No, they should go on and compete into market segments that are less (if at all) profitable.
Any mmo gets called a clone of something regardless.
Kind of talks about what happens when a studio actually decides to do something different, whether some might like it or not.
The problem with this whole discussion, which we've already had thousands of times before is that it has already been discussed to death thousands of times before video games were even invented.
Whether it be movies, music or books, when something becomes popular the more experimental offerings become "less".
This is nothing new.
Really enjoyed the accompanying link you provided. Definitely a near perfect parallel for the problems with the mmo genre at the moment.
Kind of talks about what happens when a studio actually decides to do something different, whether some might like it or not.
The problem with this whole discussion, which we've already had thousands of times before is that it has already been discussed to death thousands of times before video games were even invented.
Whether it be movies, music or books, when something becomes popular the more experimental offerings become "less".
This is nothing new.
There are games out there that are different. They aren't perfect and some have serious flaws. But they are there.
If players don't play them then what happens is that the games that are played, and played a LOT, will get investement dollars.
This is always the way it will be.
Whether people like it or not. Movies, music, TV, books, clothes (yeah clothing styles are affected as well) and anything else where the major part of the populace decides where the bucks go will be affected.
These discussions on art and music and literature, where some simplification was involved have gone on looooong before the 19th and 20th centuries.
Well,
They refer to scott pilgrim, a comic book set in real life... and they wonder why no one goes and sees it. Did you see the ads for that too?
"Oh this weak kid loves this 1 girl who was already passed on by 7 other guys"
"Those 7 others surprisingly all know each other and want to kick his ass, but he becomes a hero by kicking theirs!"
"Yippee... now come see our movie"
I find it hard to believe that someone, somewhere sat in an office and wondered why Scott Pilgrim failed.
Would you pay 60$ again to buy EQ under the name "Super EQ strikes again!" if it had exactly the same quality, except they changed the NPC names? What you refer to isn't a company trying to sell something new, its a company reskinning the old. Want the old to work, then take the same name... and add a 2 or a 3, or a 4 in front it. Don't try and dupe potential clients by trying to sell them something new that they already saw before.
Instead of naming your WoW clone "Warhammer Online", name it "World of Warhammer". Let people know that you are selling something that already exists, dont decieve them into buying old crap when claiming it will be new. Same with SWTOR... let people know its a fully voiced MMO with a story, but essentially it's WoW in Space with lightsabers.
My only question to EA/Bioware about TOR is this: Are you kidding or are you stupid?
Anet understood, They aren't naming Guild Wars 2 something like "Tales of Wars". They are taking the old name, putting a 2 in front of it, letting people know they are changing the way the game is played a bit and that they will be trying a new thing or two. Nothing else.
It seems that it is indie developers that are able to push boundaries in the MMO world for the next decade. Major developers will shy away from the risks, which is actually makes a lot of sense considering how expensive bets these games are and how long it takes to make them.
I am not sure. The problem with the indie game is that they are so lousy coded and usually released in a really pethetic shape.
This is true, ofc. Indie games suffer from tighter budgets and smaller teams and so arnt released as polished. A lot of folks hate them for this and use the same stick to measure them by as they do a massively funded studio.
but...
The problem with not playing these smaller indie deved games is that if we don't no one sends the messgae to the industry that we want different.
If we all leave the classic older games, that we all profess to LOVE, and are still there after all, for the shinier new crap clones we send the message that we want the crap more then the old style games.
Instead, people buy the more polished, though boring, small minded, derivative, designed by accountants games that the bigger devs push out, while complaining all the way.
Of course the VC development dollar will follow the mass market. We would be stupid to think it wouldnt, but bear in mind that WE are that market that it has followed.
We are creating the market that we hate by strangling innovation by our purchase habits. It's just easier to blame the devs, but it's our fault. If no one bought this crap the market wouldnt make it, but we do and so it does.
It's time gamers started looking at the bigger picture and realising that they get what they have asked for and stop crying at the devs for not taking riskes with innovation that there is no proof that the mass market wants (because we don't give ithem any proof). Why on Earth would they take the risk?
Not having a go at you Loke in this btw, your post was just the jump in point
Well lets take a look at some of the mmos since World of Warcraft. I'm sure some are enjoying some of these mmos.
1. Lotro - Probably had 1 good year then fell apart.
2. Aion - Only solid in the Eastern market.
3. Mortal Online, Darkfall - Pretty much an epic fail on both games here.
4. Warhammer Online - Well they didn't call it Failhammer for no apparent reason.
5. AOC - Pretty bad. Trying to make it as f2p hybrid model this summer.
6. DCUO - Pretty bad. Just goes to show not every mmo needs a monthly fee for success.
7. Rift - Pretty decent but how long it lasts noone knows.
8. Tabula Rasa - Terminated.
9. Auto Assault - Terminated.
10. FFXIV - Pretty bad.
Atleast from my perspective it seems the mmo market has either failed horribly and has only enjoyed very small amounts of success since World of Warcraft. The only game that has made a strong impact on the mmo market and it isn't even a mmo by definition is Guild Wars. Noone else even comes close.
Originally posted by Zylaxx Sandbox MMO's (ones designed by western companys and not Korean grindfest like ArchAge) are a vastly better gameplay that I hope an MMO developer here in America finally figures out. I recently quit Rift after a 2 month stay because the gameplay was exactly like WoW which I played for 5+ years. WAR and AIon were the same game, every MMO released in the last 6 years are either FTP crap, poorly developed or a WoW clone. The thing is even with some new bells and whistles layered on a WoW style gameplay does not make the game original. SWTOR and GW2 will be the same exact game as WoW and will prolly hold my intrest for no longer then 2-3 months im sure.
That's my similar insight on MMO's these days, things are either badly done or a WoW-clone, Tablua Rasa had potential but the game being handled poorly by devs and the fued between NCSoft and Garriot cut it short, and APB was shot down in a couple months after launch which could have been a decent MMO "GTA". There are games that need to think outside the WoW box and the risk is lack of success., WoW basically set the standard in the MMO industry. Much like Apple doing the same in the online mp3 and cell phone departments.
Why do you sandbox gamers, constantly go on and on about how to develope the perfect sandbox MMO. I mean, there are games out there already that does so many things you guys are looking for.
You all talk about how indie devs are the ones to push the innovation boundaries and when a new game like Xyson comes out, most of you don't give it a second glance. SWG, yet another game that even though changed some features, still harbor so many deep sandbox elements and yet you guys surely are not supporting it, cause it would have hundreds of thousands of players still there.
MO, DF, FE, all sandbox games that have so many systems that cater to the sandbox crowd and yet, they garner only a handful of faithful players.
So to sit around and say that the mmo genre has gone to crap since WOW is just not the truth. I just think alot of gamers especially gamers that have been playing mmo's for awhile now, just can't find a game that will give them that freshly popped cherry feeling that they had when they logged into an mmo for the first time.
For you guys, sad to say, nothing will replace that feeling, nothing. I know cause my first was SWG pre-cu and i have never had that feeling again with any other mmo i have played.
I supported SWG for years, until they WOW-ified it with the CU and such and turning it into a steaming pile of crap. Yet another example of how MMO's have gone to crap post WOW.
MO, DF etc.. have you tried them? Low budget = it shows. Give us a modern, AAA sandbox game (with an actual marketing budget too) and see what happens.
So I agree with OP. WOW was the beginning of the dumbed down, zero risk all reward, linear gameplay, gear/pvp grind, snore fest, generation of MMO's.. and things haven't changed much sinse.
And no, my first MMO was UO, yet I found that same feeling in AC1 and Eve.
IMO the genre has gone backwards in most aspects simply to cater to the lowest common denominator and mass market.
So ... The game studios should leave Blizzard alone with their cash cow, even if Blizzard gets greedy and lazy. No, they should go on and compete into market segments that are less (if at all) profitable.
Any mmo gets called a clone of something regardless.
This statement is wrong.
If it is not a clone of anything, it won't be called a clone of something.
If it looks a lot like another product, with minor differences only, then people will say, hey, don't lie to us, this is a direct clone of that. If you change class names & skills, it doesn't make it any different. Most companies don't understand that.
Also keep in mind these things are marketted by losers, for losers. Losers are those people who just have to keep everything they do separated in little imaginary boxes, because they have yet to evolve from the state they have been forced into since grade 7.
Obviously, most marketting teams are hired by people who were hired by going to school.
Then those people figure, oh, yeah, we should look for someone who went to marketting school, because if you don't go to school, you obviously cannot speak to the masses!
Then the guy who is still in school mode starts separating the target markets into individual squares. When looking at what those squares want, they write up that report for the bosses that says, hey WoW is working great, people love it, they play the game. AoC on the other hand, isn't. They tried a few things and it failed. (obviously, in marketting school you learn to never say negative things about other companies, you don't want to insult someone who likes it, so you don't say that it's cuz they were too lazy to finish the game before release, it might cost you your job.)
Then, along with that report comes graphics/images which could look like this (without the reality points):
Saga of Ryzom [Failed :: Is now Free to Play] - Different artistic approach. Freedom was greatly encouraged.
(Reality: Poorly publicized, Tutorial zone was confusing, User interface was poor)
Age of Conan [Failed] - Unique combat style. Attempted massive PvP.
(Reality: Unfinished game, Tons of game breaking bugs, PvP was very unbalanced)
Warhammer Online [Failed] - Had unique crafting, Dark "Warish" Art styles, PvP & PvE levels
(Reality: Art sucked, Very intensive on the HardDrive, Was not finished)
World of Warcraft [Success] - Has various builds, Very user friendly, Runs on many PCs, Guides players every step of the way, PvE & PvP oriented. UI was great.
(Reality: Had a strong following even before the game was announced, Game is very easy to learn, Intense publicity)
Final Fantasy 11 [Success] - Very grindy. Popular in asia. Was very good when it first came out. On all platforms. PvE oriented, can change class any time. Has many activities to do ingame.
(Reality: Anything Final Fantasy sells a lot, Ruined by gold farmers & bots. Introduced several new elements to MMOs such as aggro, fighting system using combos make it important to have teamwork.)
So now the guy who has the cash but has no idea of what a computer game is, looks at that and says... Well, to have success we need a game that does this:
1- Guides players every step of the way.
2- Can run on as many PCs as possible at the cost of quality.
3- Must have both PvE and PvP at lauch
4- The title must have a history, even at the cost of making a few single player games before hand
5- Art must follow what works, no artistic freedom.
6- We must make the player feel as if he is pro, no matter what.
7- Take the most successful combat system, players must be familiar with the game as they start it up.
8- What will differentiate us will be uhhh the story! Yes, the story! It will be different so no one can prove us wrong.
9- Another difference, our marketting. It will be subtle. We will go on forums and speak about our game and pretend we are gamers, we will pay sites to ban everyone that dares point out it will be the same as the others and we will have awesome "fansites" because well... we have to pay our web designers during the dev. time.
Kind of talks about what happens when a studio actually decides to do something different, whether some might like it or not.
The problem with this whole discussion, which we've already had thousands of times before is that it has already been discussed to death thousands of times before video games were even invented.
Whether it be movies, music or books, when something becomes popular the more experimental offerings become "less".
This is nothing new.
Really enjoyed the accompanying link you provided. Definitely a near perfect parallel for the problems with the mmo genre at the moment.
Awesome link, and sensible, clear arguments as always, Sovrath
Although I'm watching with interest at the tv show genre, it seems that there the more interesting phenomenons are happening, with productions like The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones, plus HBO's slightly off-the-beaten-path shows in general make a great case for ideas that can be a hit and popular even if they aren't sequels or safe bets.
My guess is that yes, original ideas and products can succeed, but you have to be smart about it, and choose your battlegrounds, and sometimes just be lucky. And sometimes not aim for the mainstream market with the lowest common denominator but for a large enough market demographics: not going for ultra niche but also not trying to please everyone around in the mainstream market.
Originally posted by jackmcleod
Let people know that you are selling something that already exists, dont decieve them into buying old crap when claiming it will be new. Same with SWTOR... let people know its a fully voiced MMO with a story, but essentially it's WoW in Space with lightsabers.
My only question to EA/Bioware about TOR is this: Are you kidding or are you stupid?
Anet understood, They aren't naming Guild Wars 2 something like "Tales of Wars". They are taking the old name, putting a 2 in front of it, letting people know they are changing the way the game is played a bit and that they will be trying a new thing or two. Nothing else.
I'm not sure what your point is. BW should have named their MMO "SWG 2" or "KoToR Online"? Because naming it "WoW with light sabres" would be unbelievably stupid, raise hate levels through the ceiling from SW fans as well as WoW fans and no doubt others as well, and would have cost them a lawsuite for plagiarism.
I think that "The Old Republic" in SWTOR is reference enough to make the connection with KOTOR.
Originally posted by SaintViktor
Well lets take a look at some of the mmos since World of Warcraft. I'm sure some are enjoying some of these mmos.
(snips)
Atleast from my perspective it seems the mmo market has either failed horribly and has only enjoyed very small amounts of success since World of Warcraft. The only game that has made a strong impact on the mmo market and it isn't even a mmo by definition is Guild Wars. Noone else even comes close.
Ironically enough, the AAA MMO's in your list had as good as all of them more subs over a long period of time than most of the MMO's pre-WoW.
So my assumption is that the perception of what is considered a success among MMO gamers has changed after WoW. The old sub numbers suddenly aren't healthily enough anymore in the eyes of (some) people.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
So ... The game studios should leave Blizzard alone with their cash cow, even if Blizzard gets greedy and lazy. No, they should go on and compete into market segments that are less (if at all) profitable.
Any mmo gets called a clone of something regardless.
This statement is wrong.
If it is not a clone of anything, it won't be called a clone of something.
If it looks a lot like another product, with minor differences only, then people will say, hey, don't lie to us, this is a direct clone of that. If you change class names & skills, it doesn't make it any different. Most companies don't understand that.
Also keep in mind these things are marketted by losers, for losers. Losers are those people who just have to keep everything they do separated in little imaginary boxes, because they have yet to evolve from the state they have been forced into since grade 7.
Obviously, most marketting teams are hired by people who were hired by going to school.
Then those people figure, oh, yeah, we should look for someone who went to marketting school, because if you don't go to school, you obviously cannot speak to the masses!
Then the guy who is still in school mode starts separating the target markets into individual squares. When looking at what those squares want, they write up that report for the bosses that says, hey WoW is working great, people love it, they play the game. AoC on the other hand, isn't. They tried a few things and it failed. (obviously, in marketting school you learn to never say negative things about other companies, you don't want to insult someone who likes it, so you don't say that it's cuz they were too lazy to finish the game before release, it might cost you your job.)
Then, along with that report comes graphics/images which could look like this (without the reality points):
Saga of Ryzom [Failed :: Is now Free to Play] - Different artistic approach. Freedom was greatly encouraged.
(Reality: Poorly publicized, Tutorial zone was confusing, User interface was poor)
Age of Conan [Failed] - Unique combat style. Attempted massive PvP.
(Reality: Unfinished game, Tons of game breaking bugs, PvP was very unbalanced)
Warhammer Online [Failed] - Had unique crafting, Dark "Warish" Art styles, PvP & PvE levels
(Reality: Art sucked, Very intensive on the HardDrive, Was not finished)
World of Warcraft [Success] - Has various builds, Very user friendly, Runs on many PCs, Guides players every step of the way, PvE & PvP oriented. UI was great.
(Reality: Had a strong following even before the game was announced, Game is very easy to learn, Intense publicity)
Final Fantasy 11 [Success] - Very grindy. Popular in asia. Was very good when it first came out. On all platforms. PvE oriented, can change class any time. Has many activities to do ingame.
(Reality: Anything Final Fantasy sells a lot, Ruined by gold farmers & bots. Introduced several new elements to MMOs such as aggro, fighting system using combos make it important to have teamwork.)
So now the guy who has the cash but has no idea of what a computer game is, looks at that and says... Well, to have success we need a game that does this:
1- Guides players every step of the way.
2- Can run on as many PCs as possible at the cost of quality.
3- Must have both PvE and PvP at lauch
4- The title must have a history, even at the cost of making a few single player games before hand
5- Art must follow what works, no artistic freedom.
6- We must make the player feel as if he is pro, no matter what.
7- Take the most successful combat system, players must be familiar with the game as they start it up.
8- What will differentiate us will be uhhh the story! Yes, the story! It will be different so no one can prove us wrong.
9- Another difference, our marketting. It will be subtle. We will go on forums and speak about our game and pretend we are gamers, we will pay sites to ban everyone that dares point out it will be the same as the others and we will have awesome "fansites" because well... we have to pay our web designers during the dev. time.
Bash TOR all you want, but those things can easily be pointed toward GW2 as well.
I'm not sure what your point is. BW should have named their MMO "SWG 2" or "KoToR Online"? Because naming it "WoW with light sabres" would be unbelievably stupid, raise hate levels through the ceiling from SW fans as well as WoW fans and no doubt others as well, and would have cost them a lawsuite for plagiarism.
I think that "The Old Republic" in SWTOR is reference enough to make the connection with KOTOR.
The point is we are not getting a Star Wars game. We are getting a game named Star Wars: The Old Republic, that will, in reality be closer to "WoW with lightsabers" than "Star Wars". Basically, they will be selling a title on a box.
The difference is this:
A Star Wars game would allow people to explore the universe that is Star Wars. It would expand on the philosophy, especially set in the past, it would explain some of the questions that are without answers in the original stories. It will also contain nothing about morality, since EA's only aim will be to satisfy the masses. No unscripted treason, no loss, no real anger other than raging pimple teens, no slavery, no real deception. That means, no true victory, no gain, no real allegiances, no meaning to the republic nor the empire. Some people say "rape a child enough times and you get an empty shell of flesh", well this could very well turn an excellent IP into an empty shell.
A game with the name Star Wars will be just that. Empty & without any connection to what Star Wars is. Those conversation options will most likely be the same as DragonAge/Mass Effect. Pointless. Even KoToR did a better job at it, and its extremely old now.
If you play it, ask yourself this: Would I be enjoying this if it wasn't titled "Star Wars"?
WoW did not actually get much publicity when it started, at least not any more or less than other games aorund its time, like Eve:Online and Guildwars. Its publicity was ramped up a year after release when they had regained their capital. Ironically this is the same situation Eve:Online had. When they regained their capital they advertised more.
Many online games now have made the poor choice of advertising more BEFORE release. ironically this has actually caused it to suffer as the bugs and problems are exposed more widely to the world. WoW for example had plenty of bugs and problems on release, but did not start advertising heavily until the majority of them had been sorted out. Compare this with AoC which advertised heavily before release so all the people who joined cried foul. A year later however it was far less buggy (sorry, EXTREMELLY less buggy) and that would have been a better time to lay on the heavy publicity, unfortuantly by then they had a bad reputation. Tabula Rasa was similar, and instead of going AoC route they just cancelled it instead.
It is important to realise that advertising costs money, the more you advertise the less you spend on making the game better and the more likely the game will fail. Game producers have to realise that MMOs are for the long haul, they have a lifetime of years, not months. You can not measure success of a game on its release, only of the test of time. These are not movies, they are social networks.
From what I am seeing many producers have learnt now what is needed and are adjusting the business model to address the vast difference between an MMO and other types of media.
Comments
Don't blame WoW or Blizzard for others failings.
/thread
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I have a better idea. Lets make another MMO theme park. With a health and mana bar in the top left with a picture of your avatar inside of a circle.
Great idea! We can call it Threads of the World! We can rehash the same power struggle lore, have two factions with a common enemy and everyone fighting everyone, and nifty Cheesements! We can even teach our players the power of reading comprehension!
This is gonna be epic.
WoW has set an unfortunate standard in the MMO industry. We will never see a game like SWG Pre-cu because of WoW's success. I am not going to lick blizzard's ass because they made millions dumbing down a MMORPG to cater to the masses. Now we will always have dumbed down simpleton MMOs because other game devs feel this is the direction they should go. What for? If players have done it 10 billion times before, why the hell would you do something that EQ or WOW has already done?
I have no idea what the developers of Rift were thinking, they think because you they have little purple portals that spawns from the air with monsters coming out of it...it's different. No it isn't...it justs a stupid public raid that yet again WE HAVE ALREADY DONE. People with their swords and sorcery all surrounding this big monster and trying to compete for l00t. Awesome..real fun! This is a horrible time for MMOs...the next few years will only have WoW clones being released. Flame me all you want but they will all be WoW clones.
I agree with a lot of what you have to say.
Then again, I play Mortal Online because it does give me the type of play experience most other games don't. It's not perfect, but has gotten a LOT better over time. I really enjoy a sandbox experience the most, so I'll stick with it.
Still, even WoW itself has changed, which is a further reflection on the direction mainstream MMOs have gone. I'm not saying it's good or bad, but it is different from where it started.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
This is a fallacy. A game hasn't been released yet that compares with your initial SWG experience.
No need to flame, but i do disagree. I think that games like TOR, GW2, Secret World will bring alot to the table in the mmo genre. Like it or not, since you mentioned SWG, even though TOR has elements of traditional gameplay, the game will offer alot more than what WOW has ever brought to the table. The same can be said for GW2. The other game will bring even more with no classes and the skill systems they incorporate.
WOW is not a horrible game by any means. It just became the biggest because it launched with alot of content and was very polished. there have been many afterwards that swayed away from what WOW offered and didn't do poorly because of that, but didn't do well because they were buggy and unfinished with little content.
It's easy for a lot of people to throw around the WOW clone phrase, when talking about another game that has been released or being released in the future. What they don't understand is that, there are other games on the market that offer much different gamplay than WOW or other themepark games.
You even said yourself there will never be another game like SWG pe-cu. I say why not play SWG as it is right now. Even though it has condensed alot of the origional profession's it still has the best crafting out there, plus the space game, as well as the freedom to place house's and build cities. On top of that it offers more content than it ever had before during any incarnation.
I also remeber correctly, since you mentioned all we have now is people standing around killing the big monster for 100t. Well, i remember back in the day standing around with two full 20 man groups of guildmates fighting ancient krayts for hours on end to just try and get some scales and a pearl. Not that much different from what you are tired of in these so called WOW clones.
I guess what i'm saying is that, the games coming out will change the genre, and i think for the better.
You may be correct. Since i am a longtime SW nerd, i can only hope TOR will give me that feeling. I can say that because when i started SWG i didn't know what sandbox or thempark even meant. All i knew was that i could pay and play a game that was SW until i stopped payment. Nothing else mattered.
I suppose this is the perfect time to post this:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3281-The-Numbers
Kind of talks about what happens when a studio actually decides to do something different, whether some might like it or not.
The problem with this whole discussion, which we've already had thousands of times before is that it has already been discussed to death thousands of times before video games were even invented.
Whether it be movies, music or books, when something becomes popular the more experimental offerings become "less".
This is nothing new.
There are games out there that are different. They aren't perfect and some have serious flaws. But they are there.
If players don't play them then what happens is that the games that are played, and played a LOT, will get investement dollars.
This is always the way it will be.
Whether people like it or not. Movies, music, TV, books, clothes (yeah clothing styles are affected as well) and anything else where the major part of the populace decides where the bucks go will be affected.
These discussions on art and music and literature, where some simplification was involved have gone on looooong before the 19th and 20th centuries.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"Anyone else feel this way? When I look at GW2 SW:ToR I just can't seem to get excited since they both just sound like the same crap over again in a diffrent wrapper."
I don't think you've been keeping up with those two. GW2 espacially is brining quite a few new ideas. No trinity. Anyone can raise. Extensive VO. I have not seen these in any MMO.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
FPS games are repetative and brain dead towards a good MMO,for me you can't compare the changes in the 2 genres.
So ... The game studios should leave Blizzard alone with their cash cow, even if Blizzard gets greedy and lazy. No, they should go on and compete into market segments that are less (if at all) profitable.
Any mmo gets called a clone of something regardless.
Really enjoyed the accompanying link you provided. Definitely a near perfect parallel for the problems with the mmo genre at the moment.
Well,
They refer to scott pilgrim, a comic book set in real life... and they wonder why no one goes and sees it. Did you see the ads for that too?
"Oh this weak kid loves this 1 girl who was already passed on by 7 other guys"
"Those 7 others surprisingly all know each other and want to kick his ass, but he becomes a hero by kicking theirs!"
"Yippee... now come see our movie"
I find it hard to believe that someone, somewhere sat in an office and wondered why Scott Pilgrim failed.
Would you pay 60$ again to buy EQ under the name "Super EQ strikes again!" if it had exactly the same quality, except they changed the NPC names? What you refer to isn't a company trying to sell something new, its a company reskinning the old. Want the old to work, then take the same name... and add a 2 or a 3, or a 4 in front it. Don't try and dupe potential clients by trying to sell them something new that they already saw before.
Instead of naming your WoW clone "Warhammer Online", name it "World of Warhammer". Let people know that you are selling something that already exists, dont decieve them into buying old crap when claiming it will be new. Same with SWTOR... let people know its a fully voiced MMO with a story, but essentially it's WoW in Space with lightsabers.
My only question to EA/Bioware about TOR is this: Are you kidding or are you stupid?
Anet understood, They aren't naming Guild Wars 2 something like "Tales of Wars". They are taking the old name, putting a 2 in front of it, letting people know they are changing the way the game is played a bit and that they will be trying a new thing or two. Nothing else.
This is true, ofc. Indie games suffer from tighter budgets and smaller teams and so arnt released as polished. A lot of folks hate them for this and use the same stick to measure them by as they do a massively funded studio.
but...
The problem with not playing these smaller indie deved games is that if we don't no one sends the messgae to the industry that we want different.
If we all leave the classic older games, that we all profess to LOVE, and are still there after all, for the shinier new crap clones we send the message that we want the crap more then the old style games.
Instead, people buy the more polished, though boring, small minded, derivative, designed by accountants games that the bigger devs push out, while complaining all the way.
Of course the VC development dollar will follow the mass market. We would be stupid to think it wouldnt, but bear in mind that WE are that market that it has followed.
We are creating the market that we hate by strangling innovation by our purchase habits. It's just easier to blame the devs, but it's our fault. If no one bought this crap the market wouldnt make it, but we do and so it does.
It's time gamers started looking at the bigger picture and realising that they get what they have asked for and stop crying at the devs for not taking riskes with innovation that there is no proof that the mass market wants (because we don't give ithem any proof). Why on Earth would they take the risk?
Not having a go at you Loke in this btw, your post was just the jump in point
Well lets take a look at some of the mmos since World of Warcraft. I'm sure some are enjoying some of these mmos.
1. Lotro - Probably had 1 good year then fell apart.
2. Aion - Only solid in the Eastern market.
3. Mortal Online, Darkfall - Pretty much an epic fail on both games here.
4. Warhammer Online - Well they didn't call it Failhammer for no apparent reason.
5. AOC - Pretty bad. Trying to make it as f2p hybrid model this summer.
6. DCUO - Pretty bad. Just goes to show not every mmo needs a monthly fee for success.
7. Rift - Pretty decent but how long it lasts noone knows.
8. Tabula Rasa - Terminated.
9. Auto Assault - Terminated.
10. FFXIV - Pretty bad.
Atleast from my perspective it seems the mmo market has either failed horribly and has only enjoyed very small amounts of success since World of Warcraft. The only game that has made a strong impact on the mmo market and it isn't even a mmo by definition is Guild Wars. Noone else even comes close.
I supported SWG for years, until they WOW-ified it with the CU and such and turning it into a steaming pile of crap. Yet another example of how MMO's have gone to crap post WOW.
MO, DF etc.. have you tried them? Low budget = it shows. Give us a modern, AAA sandbox game (with an actual marketing budget too) and see what happens.
So I agree with OP. WOW was the beginning of the dumbed down, zero risk all reward, linear gameplay, gear/pvp grind, snore fest, generation of MMO's.. and things haven't changed much sinse.
And no, my first MMO was UO, yet I found that same feeling in AC1 and Eve.
IMO the genre has gone backwards in most aspects simply to cater to the lowest common denominator and mass market.
This statement is wrong.
If it is not a clone of anything, it won't be called a clone of something.
If it looks a lot like another product, with minor differences only, then people will say, hey, don't lie to us, this is a direct clone of that. If you change class names & skills, it doesn't make it any different. Most companies don't understand that.
Also keep in mind these things are marketted by losers, for losers. Losers are those people who just have to keep everything they do separated in little imaginary boxes, because they have yet to evolve from the state they have been forced into since grade 7.
Obviously, most marketting teams are hired by people who were hired by going to school.
Then those people figure, oh, yeah, we should look for someone who went to marketting school, because if you don't go to school, you obviously cannot speak to the masses!
Then the guy who is still in school mode starts separating the target markets into individual squares. When looking at what those squares want, they write up that report for the bosses that says, hey WoW is working great, people love it, they play the game. AoC on the other hand, isn't. They tried a few things and it failed. (obviously, in marketting school you learn to never say negative things about other companies, you don't want to insult someone who likes it, so you don't say that it's cuz they were too lazy to finish the game before release, it might cost you your job.)
Then, along with that report comes graphics/images which could look like this (without the reality points):
Saga of Ryzom [Failed :: Is now Free to Play] - Different artistic approach. Freedom was greatly encouraged.
(Reality: Poorly publicized, Tutorial zone was confusing, User interface was poor)
Age of Conan [Failed] - Unique combat style. Attempted massive PvP.
(Reality: Unfinished game, Tons of game breaking bugs, PvP was very unbalanced)
Warhammer Online [Failed] - Had unique crafting, Dark "Warish" Art styles, PvP & PvE levels
(Reality: Art sucked, Very intensive on the HardDrive, Was not finished)
World of Warcraft [Success] - Has various builds, Very user friendly, Runs on many PCs, Guides players every step of the way, PvE & PvP oriented. UI was great.
(Reality: Had a strong following even before the game was announced, Game is very easy to learn, Intense publicity)
Final Fantasy 11 [Success] - Very grindy. Popular in asia. Was very good when it first came out. On all platforms. PvE oriented, can change class any time. Has many activities to do ingame.
(Reality: Anything Final Fantasy sells a lot, Ruined by gold farmers & bots. Introduced several new elements to MMOs such as aggro, fighting system using combos make it important to have teamwork.)
So now the guy who has the cash but has no idea of what a computer game is, looks at that and says... Well, to have success we need a game that does this:
1- Guides players every step of the way.
2- Can run on as many PCs as possible at the cost of quality.
3- Must have both PvE and PvP at lauch
4- The title must have a history, even at the cost of making a few single player games before hand
5- Art must follow what works, no artistic freedom.
6- We must make the player feel as if he is pro, no matter what.
7- Take the most successful combat system, players must be familiar with the game as they start it up.
8- What will differentiate us will be uhhh the story! Yes, the story! It will be different so no one can prove us wrong.
9- Another difference, our marketting. It will be subtle. We will go on forums and speak about our game and pretend we are gamers, we will pay sites to ban everyone that dares point out it will be the same as the others and we will have awesome "fansites" because well... we have to pay our web designers during the dev. time.
Awesome link, and sensible, clear arguments as always, Sovrath
Although I'm watching with interest at the tv show genre, it seems that there the more interesting phenomenons are happening, with productions like The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones, plus HBO's slightly off-the-beaten-path shows in general make a great case for ideas that can be a hit and popular even if they aren't sequels or safe bets.
My guess is that yes, original ideas and products can succeed, but you have to be smart about it, and choose your battlegrounds, and sometimes just be lucky. And sometimes not aim for the mainstream market with the lowest common denominator but for a large enough market demographics: not going for ultra niche but also not trying to please everyone around in the mainstream market.
I'm not sure what your point is. BW should have named their MMO "SWG 2" or "KoToR Online"? Because naming it "WoW with light sabres" would be unbelievably stupid, raise hate levels through the ceiling from SW fans as well as WoW fans and no doubt others as well, and would have cost them a lawsuite for plagiarism.
I think that "The Old Republic" in SWTOR is reference enough to make the connection with KOTOR.
Ironically enough, the AAA MMO's in your list had as good as all of them more subs over a long period of time than most of the MMO's pre-WoW.
So my assumption is that the perception of what is considered a success among MMO gamers has changed after WoW. The old sub numbers suddenly aren't healthily enough anymore in the eyes of (some) people.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Bash TOR all you want, but those things can easily be pointed toward GW2 as well.
The point is we are not getting a Star Wars game. We are getting a game named Star Wars: The Old Republic, that will, in reality be closer to "WoW with lightsabers" than "Star Wars". Basically, they will be selling a title on a box.
The difference is this:
A Star Wars game would allow people to explore the universe that is Star Wars. It would expand on the philosophy, especially set in the past, it would explain some of the questions that are without answers in the original stories. It will also contain nothing about morality, since EA's only aim will be to satisfy the masses. No unscripted treason, no loss, no real anger other than raging pimple teens, no slavery, no real deception. That means, no true victory, no gain, no real allegiances, no meaning to the republic nor the empire. Some people say "rape a child enough times and you get an empty shell of flesh", well this could very well turn an excellent IP into an empty shell.
A game with the name Star Wars will be just that. Empty & without any connection to what Star Wars is. Those conversation options will most likely be the same as DragonAge/Mass Effect. Pointless. Even KoToR did a better job at it, and its extremely old now.
If you play it, ask yourself this: Would I be enjoying this if it wasn't titled "Star Wars"?
WoW did not actually get much publicity when it started, at least not any more or less than other games aorund its time, like Eve:Online and Guildwars. Its publicity was ramped up a year after release when they had regained their capital. Ironically this is the same situation Eve:Online had. When they regained their capital they advertised more.
Many online games now have made the poor choice of advertising more BEFORE release. ironically this has actually caused it to suffer as the bugs and problems are exposed more widely to the world. WoW for example had plenty of bugs and problems on release, but did not start advertising heavily until the majority of them had been sorted out. Compare this with AoC which advertised heavily before release so all the people who joined cried foul. A year later however it was far less buggy (sorry, EXTREMELLY less buggy) and that would have been a better time to lay on the heavy publicity, unfortuantly by then they had a bad reputation. Tabula Rasa was similar, and instead of going AoC route they just cancelled it instead.
It is important to realise that advertising costs money, the more you advertise the less you spend on making the game better and the more likely the game will fail. Game producers have to realise that MMOs are for the long haul, they have a lifetime of years, not months. You can not measure success of a game on its release, only of the test of time. These are not movies, they are social networks.
From what I am seeing many producers have learnt now what is needed and are adjusting the business model to address the vast difference between an MMO and other types of media.