The e3 stream vid on youtube showed the worst shooter like combat i ever saw in any game up to now.
Porting a shooting combat into a old tab targeting combat system without even tweaking it, is the worst thing i ever saw in any game. I think everyone here will agree on how bad it look and feel.
It is even worst than what Darkfall team made when they ported fps like combat to sword combat. Just tottally unatractive and missplaced.
How could they have ignored 10 years of shooter game history is beyond me. They could at least have tweaked a bit their combat system to put in some dodge moves, put some rock for the gamer to cover behind, have the movement impact the end result of the fight, anything that are a standard in any shooter is just plain missing in the videos.
I just feel sorry for Bioware, i really expected them to raise the themepark game quality, but it just doesn't look like that. Combat system is one of the main aspect of a mmo, the game can be a jewel, if it have a bad combat system the game will not keep any interest to me. In fact they just prooved my worst expectation with this show. I don't think i will involve myself more in this game, and its a shame because i'm one of those watching the first Star wars when i was like 10 and still got great memory from that.
They should push back this game development for one or 2 year and actually try to adapt their game to the IP, and not the way around. Thats my 2 cents for them and Lucas. When i do my job i adapt it to my client not the way around, i'm sorry guys you should knopw this better than I. And this have nothign to do with what they said or not, what they have to do for the show or not. The consideration i'm writing here have nothing to do with those, its plain adaptability process. You simply cannot fit a cube into a ball and think it will look nice, period.
The e3 stream vid on youtube showed the worst shooter like combat i ever saw in any game up to now.
Porting a shooting combat into a old tab targeting combat system without even tweaking it, is the worst thing i ever saw in any game. I think everyone here will agree on how bad it look and feel.
It is even worst than what Darkfall team made when they ported fps like combat to sword combat. Just tottally unatractive and missplaced.
How could they have ignored 10 years of shooter game history is beyond me. They could at least have tweaked a bit their combat system to put in some dodge moves, put some rock for the gamer to cover behind, have the movement impact the end result of the fight, anything that are a standard in any shooter is just plain missing in the videos.
I just feel sorry for Bioware, i really expected them to raise the themepark game quality, but it just doesn't look like that. Combat system is one of the main aspect of a mmo, the game can be a jewel, if it have a bad combat system the game will not keep any interest to me. In fact they just prooved my worst expectation with this show. I don't think i will involve myself more in this game, and its a shame because i'm one of those watching the first Star wars when i was like 10 and still got great memory from that.
They should push back this game development for one or 2 year and actually try to adapt their game to the IP, and not the way around. Thats my 2 cents for them and Lucas. When i do my job i adapt it to my client not the way around, i'm sorry guys you should knopw this better than I. And this have nothign to do with what they said or not, what they have to do for the show or not. The consideration i'm writing here have nothing to do with those, its plain adaptability process. You simply cannot fit a cube into a ball and think it will look nice, period.
When did they ever state that they were going to insert more shooter-like combat into the game? The answer to that is, they didn't. I think you have the wrong idea of what BioWare is going for here. The combat is going to be based upon stats, like most RPG's are. I'm glad they're going this route as opposed to a game where someone can jump around like Johnny Jackass and win because they move like they just did a pound of blow. I'm not saying I don't like FPS games, I'm just saying I'm glad TOR isn't like that.
There is going to be all kinds of hype, but being able to read through the lines and understand that this is just another in a series of clones should be possible with the videos coming out now whether or not there is an open beta.
The hype machine is big with AAA MMO's now so pull out the data you need to make a purchase without getting all emotional, and make it or wait until you have enough data to push you in that direction.
I am really hyped about TSW so I know how you guys getting hyped about SWTOR feel. Just read between the lines. Don't overhype it. It is just another clone with ridiculously high production quality in the Star Wars universe with some pretty slick features. It will be a solid game, but it won't be the end all be all.
The e3 stream vid on youtube showed the worst shooter like combat i ever saw in any game up to now.
Porting a shooting combat into a old tab targeting combat system without even tweaking it, is the worst thing i ever saw in any game. I think everyone here will agree on how bad it look and feel.
It is even worst than what Darkfall team made when they ported fps like combat to sword combat. Just tottally unatractive and missplaced.
How could they have ignored 10 years of shooter game history is beyond me. They could at least have tweaked a bit their combat system to put in some dodge moves, put some rock for the gamer to cover behind, have the movement impact the end result of the fight, anything that are a standard in any shooter is just plain missing in the videos.
I just feel sorry for Bioware, i really expected them to raise the themepark game quality, but it just doesn't look like that. Combat system is one of the main aspect of a mmo, the game can be a jewel, if it have a bad combat system the game will not keep any interest to me. In fact they just prooved my worst expectation with this show. I don't think i will involve myself more in this game, and its a shame because i'm one of those watching the first Star wars when i was like 10 and still got great memory from that.
They should push back this game development for one or 2 year and actually try to adapt their game to the IP, and not the way around. Thats my 2 cents for them and Lucas. When i do my job i adapt it to my client not the way around, i'm sorry guys you should knopw this better than I. And this have nothign to do with what they said or not, what they have to do for the show or not. The consideration i'm writing here have nothing to do with those, its plain adaptability process. You simply cannot fit a cube into a ball and think it will look nice, period.
When did they ever state that they were going to insert more shooter-like combat into the game? The answer to that is, they didn't. I think you have the wrong idea of what BioWare is going for here. The combat is going to be based upon stats, like most RPG's are. I'm glad they're going this route as opposed to a game where someone can jump around like Johnny Jackass and win because they move like they just did a pound of blow. I'm not saying I don't like FPS games, I'm just saying I'm glad TOR isn't like that.
I agree, dont really know why the expectation of it being like, say, the Jedi Knight series came from. I expected it it be like the KotOR series. The game Bioware developed before, and that this game is based upon.
Whatever honestly. I was so sure they will pull something great from the usual themepark formula, but we got the worst of it. At least when it come to shooting class as shown in E3 stream vid. Making an error by choice won't ease the pain by much, beleive me.
I'll keep this short. First after reading all this thread, I think there are still many of you out there judging this game by what you want or hope it to be rather than what it is. No good can ever come of this. No matter how much you yammer on about might have beens and should have beens, no developer is going to have an epiphany and say "Oh my goodness he's right", and go back and waste another 2 or more years and who knows how much money, re-tailoring their game to suit you. Sorry but that is just the honest truth.
Now let's move on to what SWTOR isn't. Reguardless of what some anti-fans have said, SWOTR is not just Wow in space. Bioware has added and adapted other features from other MMOs other than Wow, but as has been lamented here, not really anything we've never seen before. So that means that SWOTR is RIFT in space.
There. Now I've displeased everyone. My work here is done.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Except that Rift don't have and never wanted to have guns and shooting combat, thats the whole difference you see, and thats why i must look so upset here.
Shooting combat have his huge history in gaming, and you just can't ignore it behind a "we make an old scholl mmo" kind of attitude, it just don't work. This is where is the limit you should not cross as a developer imo. Thats why i make all that fuzz about adaptability and ip stuff.
-Change up the trinity a bit (ranged tanks, stealth healers)
-Add a fully realized crafting system
-Make your quests feel like kotor/mass effect
-Put in a companion system that can be used for quests, crafting, and dungeons
-Make the game world many times larger
-Add a tube shooter mini game
-Include instanced player housing
-Beef up the graphics
-Keep the dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, and tiered gear sets
-Make it in the Star Wars universe
You hand me a list like that and I will say hell yes lets do this. And that is exactly what Bioware is doing. Now you need to decide pretty soon if this game is for you or not. BWs game plan with this one has been pretty straight forward for what, years now? Are you still wishing it was something different than what we've all seen and have been told since 2009? I really hope not.
Except that Rift don't have and never wanted to have guns and shooting combat, thats the whole difference you see, and thats why i must look so upset here.
Shooting combat have his huge history in gaming, and you just can't ignore it behind a "we make an old scholl mmo" kind of attitude, it just don't work. This is where is the limit you should not cross as a developer imo. Thats why i make all that fuzz about adaptability and ip stuff.
Just because something has guns does not mean it has to be yet another call of Mediocrity or Halow style shooter, this is a story based starwars MMO.
Except that Rift don't have and never wanted to have guns and shooting combat, thats the whole difference you see, and thats why i must look so upset here.
Shooting combat have his huge history in gaming, and you just can't ignore it behind a "we make an old scholl mmo" kind of attitude, it just don't work. This is where is the limit you should not cross as a developer imo. Thats why i make all that fuzz about adaptability and ip stuff.
I still feel the anaology holds water as Rift has two ranged classes, one with a pet to hold mobs at range and the other that doesn't and has to kite mobs around in circles like a moron.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Except that Rift don't have and never wanted to have guns and shooting combat, thats the whole difference you see, and thats why i must look so upset here.
Shooting combat have his huge history in gaming, and you just can't ignore it behind a "we make an old scholl mmo" kind of attitude, it just don't work. This is where is the limit you should not cross as a developer imo. Thats why i make all that fuzz about adaptability and ip stuff.
Just because something has guns does not mean it has to be yet another call of Mediocrity or Halow style shooter, this is a story based starwars MMO.
The story have nothing to do with combat system, i don't critisized the story and the quest system.
And did i ever asked to have a fps like combat system? NO
I have seen some great tab targeting combat system, for me Uo combat system is one of the best even today, even better that most fps, tab targeting or fps have nothing to do with the quality of the combat system. If you want a good quality shooting game, you just can't have 2 guy pew pewing at each other at short range not moving at all, fps or tab targeting have noting to do here. Why does this even need explaination? i understand some people want to defend their game, but there is nothing defendable here, i'm sorry.
-Change up the trinity a bit (ranged tanks, stealth healers)
-Add a fully realized crafting system
-Make your quests feel like kotor/mass effect
-Put in a companion system that can be used for quests, crafting, and dungeons
-Make the game world many times larger
-Add a tube shooter mini game
-Include instanced player housing
-Beef up the graphics
-Keep the dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, and tiered gear sets
-Make it in the Star Wars universe
You hand me a list like that and I will say hell yes lets do this. And that is exactly what Bioware is doing. Now you need to decide pretty soon if this game is for you or not. BWs game plan with this one has been pretty straight forward for what, years now? Are you still wishing it was something different than what we've all seen and have been told since 2009? I really hope not.
THIS!
And it sounds great to me bring it on.
Thumbs up for me. This is why I am looking forward to this game. I have watched and seen everything so far. The tatooine footage was finally enough for me to know I will like this game . BIG shared zones like that will be a hoot on a PVP server. The only flaw I see there is that with only the two factions if one severly off sets the other the Open PVP type server might not be too fun for the underdogs.
So I am all set from a PVE view and it appears to be a game I will want. One things I still HAVE NOT seen is what they do about being attacked in PVP while locked in a dialogue with an NPC quest giver.
I have a bad feeling that it will get real old real fast and be fun for a month or 2. I find it takes a real fun pvp system to keep a game fun longer then a few months .
Another old school style MMO with a gimmick (story instead of rifts) thrown in to try to convince itself it won't be boring after the first 2 months.
That is a silly statement and a broad over generalization. I am not a fanboy of this game (but am starting to like it more as I see more) and while drawing some comparisons to other popular MMOs might allow you to generalize like that there are many, fairly significant differences, even with the classes and how they are structured, from RIFT or WOW.
It is not just RIFT in space.
Examples:
Companion Characters, fully voiced with option dialogue that impacts the game for you, Player housing in your large ships that you gain... yes, all the story elements too which is not insignificant, Space combat, and many other things as well.
Another old school style MMO with a gimmick (story instead of rifts) thrown in to try to convince itself it won't be boring after the first 2 months.
That is a silly statement and a broad over generalization. I am not a fanboy of this game (but am starting to like it more as I see more) and while drawing some comparisons to other popular MMOs might allow you to generalize like that there are many, fairly significant differences, even with the classes and how they are structured, from RIFT or WOW.
It is not just RIFT in space.
Examples:
Companion Characters, fully voiced with option dialogue that impacts the game for you, Player housing in your large ships that you gain... yes, all the story elements too which is not insignificant, Space combat, and many other things as well.
Correct on both points. Sadly though that doesn't mean that they hold no kernel of truth what so ever. The features you list sound nice. BUT I don't feel they will do a single thing to change the fact I'll get bored once I reach level cap becuse Bioware seems to be sticking to the old stand by of Raid, BG, Heroics, and not much else.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Another old school style MMO with a gimmick (story instead of rifts) thrown in to try to convince itself it won't be boring after the first 2 months.
That is a silly statement and a broad over generalization. I am not a fanboy of this game (but am starting to like it more as I see more) and while drawing some comparisons to other popular MMOs might allow you to generalize like that there are many, fairly significant differences, even with the classes and how they are structured, from RIFT or WOW.
It is not just RIFT in space.
Examples:
Companion Characters, fully voiced with option dialogue that impacts the game for you, Player housing in your large ships that you gain... yes, all the story elements too which is not insignificant, Space combat, and many other things as well.
Correct on both points. Sadly though that doesn't mean that they hold no kernel of truth what so ever. The features you list sound nice. BUT I don't feel they will do a single thing to change the fact I'll get bored once I reach level cap becuse Bioware seems to be sticking to the old stand by of Raid, BG, Heroics, and not much else.
It's called rhetoric and while a good speaker, or in this case poster, will use rhetoric to prove a point . . . way to may people abuse it in order to cloud the real issue. For example, using the term "WoW Clone" is an abuse of rhetoric because it is a gross over-exaggeration of the comparrison of the two games, while saying it reminds me of WoW because of A, B, and C, would be a proper use of rhetoric.
I'm glad Tardcore, that you recognized what the previous poster had to say, but I am almost wondering if ANY of the MMOs out today or even coming out in the next few years could manage to keep you interested for long. There are only so many models that can be implemented in this genre after all and for the most part, they are out there in one game or another. To me it sounds like you are suffering from MMO burnout and just take a break for a year or so. I tried it and it is amazing how much it helps to improve your outlook on gaming or at least it did for me.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
If the end game consists of raiding for gear or doing small scale instanced PvP, then many players will not play the end game. Many players will though.
Even with all the additions to the classic mmorpg formula, what you spend the majority of your time doing is what you're going to see the game as. I am burned out on the whole Raid for Gear, PvP for Gear end game, so I'm not likely to stick around for an extended period of time for that type of game play. I am perfectly willing to buy the box and play through the leveling process if it's fun. Which is what it all comes down to, is the game fun? Are you getting what you want out of it? If the answer is, "No", then don't play it. If the answer is, "Yes", then play it, even if tomorrow the answer will be, "No".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Another old school style MMO with a gimmick (story instead of rifts) thrown in to try to convince itself it won't be boring after the first 2 months.
That is a silly statement and a broad over generalization. I am not a fanboy of this game (but am starting to like it more as I see more) and while drawing some comparisons to other popular MMOs might allow you to generalize like that there are many, fairly significant differences, even with the classes and how they are structured, from RIFT or WOW.
It is not just RIFT in space.
Examples:
Companion Characters, fully voiced with option dialogue that impacts the game for you, Player housing in your large ships that you gain... yes, all the story elements too which is not insignificant, Space combat, and many other things as well.
Correct on both points. Sadly though that doesn't mean that they hold no kernel of truth what so ever. The features you list sound nice. BUT I don't feel they will do a single thing to change the fact I'll get bored once I reach level cap becuse Bioware seems to be sticking to the old stand by of Raid, BG, Heroics, and not much else.
It's called rhetoric and while a good speaker, or in this case poster, will use rhetoric to prove a point . . . way to may people abuse it in order to cloud the real issue. For example, using the term "WoW Clone" is an abuse of rhetoric because it is a gross over-exaggeration of the comparrison of the two games, while saying it reminds me of WoW because of A, B, and C, would be a proper use of rhetoric.
I'm glad Tardcore, that you recognized what the previous poster had to say, but I am almost wondering if ANY of the MMOs out today or even coming out in the next few years could manage to keep you interested for long. There are only so many models that can be implemented in this genre after all and for the most part, they are out there in one game or another. To me it sounds like you are suffering from MMO burnout and just take a break for a year or so. I tried it and it is amazing how much it helps to improve your outlook on gaming or at least it did for me.
All good discussion, I resort to rhetoric and hyperbole to spur conversation, (well and to mock those that mistake both of them for cold hard facts). Anyway I'll just address the MMO burnout comment. With the exception of one month of Fallen Earth, 3 weeks of wow during the Cat beta, and about one month of DCUO beta, I haven't played MMOs for nearly two years. The only game I've played in that time for more than a month has been Rift. A game I didn't expect to enjoy, but really really did. However now that I have reached end game on 4 toons, in two seperate factions, the repetitive activites the game offers isn't enough to keep me entertained. I enjoy the journey but not so much the destination. It looks like SWTOR is shaking out to be exactly the same. I'm sure I'll enjoy the hell out of the game, UNTIL I find myself with no choice but to repeat the same actions over and over at end game. Activities that are espcially annoying when almost every game since 2005 uses the exact same schtick. Now does that mean I'm burnt on repetitive end game mechanics? Yes. Do I feel I am the most to blame for this? No. Until a gaming company evolves end game, nothing is going to make me decide I like to like these kinds of pointless repeats, short of a lobotomy.
That said, understand my point on this thread hasn't been to insult SWTOR for having these simialr features to other games, but to rattle the cages of those posters who are letting their delusional fantasies blind them to what this game is actually going to be. And I mean both the hardcore fans and anti fans of this game. The people who discount the game as just wow in space, I feel, aren't giving it a fair look, but alternatively the people who think this game is going to be something earth shakingly new and different are also treating the game just as unfairly, and setting themselves up for bitter dissapointment. So I'm just trying to insert a little "reality adjustment" into their day.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Originally posted by Tardcore Correct on both points. Sadly though that doesn't mean that they hold no kernel of truth what so ever. The features you list sound nice. BUT I don't feel they will do a single thing to change the fact I'll get bored once I reach level cap becuse Bioware seems to be sticking to the old stand by of Raid, BG, Heroics, and not much else.
Besides Raids, BG, Heroics, I would argue that there is a deep enough crafting system and companion system to keep someone occupied end game. Also, the game world itself is so much bigger that an explorer type gamer will have a suitable endgame in that regard as well. especially compared to rift which is quite small. The rerollers have a LOT to look forward to since basically they get a whole new srpg experience with each class.
My list for SWTOR's endgame would be:
Raid,Flashpoint,Warzone,Crafting,Companions,Exploration,Reroll. All of these features are extensive enough to be a valid endgame option. The only endgame feature left that I am holding out hope for is some sort of world pvp system.
its all about the sales today. im not a hater or a fanboi.. im a starwars fan as well as a very good mmo fan. now my idea of very good isnt necessarily the same as say a wow players idea of a good mmo. but i do have around 10 years of mmo gaming experience under my belt in many mmo's across many diffrent genres, and i can honestly say none of them hit all the marks, and some of them come really close and even have future content planned that will enable them to hit all the marks.
i have how ever noticed that the majority of mmo's namely wow and its clones or wanna be's are falling short of orribinal design, they are just copies of copies of copies and the oil is getting thinner with each new addition of dilution. now wow wasnt a particular thick game to start with, but it was the first of its kind. which deserves some merit in the whole experimentation sense of it all. but wow just wasnt ever going to be more than it is now, it basically means its players today are left found wanting and needing more. dissapointed is the word that comes to mind.
now through my past playing experience online. ive found that story driven and based mmo games never really fullfil or entertain for a pronlonged period of time. sure the story is epic while it lasts, but we have all seen it before. just check out lord of the rings online, great to read the books then watch the films and then oh look we get to play the story out again in a game. now i dont know about you guys but thats just dragging on alittle too much for me. and lotro doesnt have the content to support the game. its very boreing once you have been through the all the quests and stories. crafting is a shambles leaving pretty much nothing left to do, and the pvp is one single fixed location, a single map. not even exctieing. exploreing is pointless as the quests pretty much cover all the areas.
and now we have swtor. the devs know the game is going to look feel play and sound the same as wow and lotro, they would be complete idiots to not realise this, so they are frying our minds with these awesome movie trailers and i mean awesome. some of the best cinimatics ive ever seen in a game!! but guess what!! we are not going to be playing the movie trailers.
the game its self looks utterly nothing like the trailers, in no way shape or form do these trailers represent the game, sure its a starwars trailer, but hell no you cannot do all those moves, and oh no the game is not as epic as the trailers look. infact the combat in swtor is the same as lotro very boreing. static based auto aim auto hit junk.. its WOW format. we are still getting wow clones and swtor is the next one in line.
the hype will for sure deal a devastateing blow to swtor in the long run, in the short run the hype will promise a significant income to the developers.
chance are they dont want the game to last so long, maybe it is for a quick cash injection. i suspect the game will be out for a couple of years as pay to play then quickly move to the f2p format and there for put on the back boiler while the developers create the next cash injection/money spinner.
i think this game is going to be a pile of crap. it will play and look like lotro which is a clone of wow meaning swtor is just another wow clone. hell swtor is barely show signs of being an mmo game. companions limit multiplay. and allthe clips ive seen are of groups of players in flashpoints which are ofcourse just instances. nothing new, just diffrent names.
there is going to be alot of dissapointed people indeed, and im one of them already. i dont need to wait for the game to come out to know im dissapointed. and im usualy a glass half full kind of guy too. you can tell its going to dissapoint, just look at lotro servers, they are becoming barren too. wow is looseing its appeal on a global scale. and now swtor are expecting these people who are tired with this kind fo game format to swallow yet another one!! who are they trying to kid.
i think this game is going to be a pile of crap. it will play and look like lotro which is a clone of wow meaning swtor is just another wow clone. hell swtor is barely show signs of being an mmo game. companions limit multiplay. and allthe clips ive seen are of groups of players in flashpoints which are ofcourse just instances. nothing new, just diffrent names.
there is going to be alot of dissapointed people indeed, and im one of them already. i dont need to wait for the game to come out to know im dissapointed. and im usualy a glass half full kind of guy too. you can tell its going to dissapoint, just look at lotro servers, they are becoming barren too. wow is looseing its appeal on a global scale. and now swtor are expecting these people who are tired with this kind fo game format to swallow yet another one!! who are they trying to kid.
LotrO has held over about 200-300k subs for several years without steep player drops as you've seen with a lot of other MMO's. WoW has grown explosively and then held over 10 million subs for 6-7 years now since its launch.
Compared to other types of MMO's and considering that MMO's like Rift and Aion still do better than most sandbox or non-themepark MMO's, I think it's clear that you're wrong in your assumption that people have grown tired of that kind of MMO gameplay, that's just your own taste and problem if you can't enjoy that kind of MMO's anymore. People may grow weary of WoW after years of playing it, but that doesn't mean the same as that they've grown tired and burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay, and it also doesn't mean that they'll jump ship in whole flocks to sandbox type of MMO's or all kinds of innovative MMO's.
There was a reason that WoW and its typical style of gameplay appealed to so many people for so many years, people who've gone burnt out or hating themepark gameplay often tend to forget that little detail.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i think this game is going to be a pile of crap. it will play and look like lotro which is a clone of wow meaning swtor is just another wow clone. hell swtor is barely show signs of being an mmo game. companions limit multiplay. and allthe clips ive seen are of groups of players in flashpoints which are ofcourse just instances. nothing new, just diffrent names.
there is going to be alot of dissapointed people indeed, and im one of them already. i dont need to wait for the game to come out to know im dissapointed. and im usualy a glass half full kind of guy too. you can tell its going to dissapoint, just look at lotro servers, they are becoming barren too. wow is looseing its appeal on a global scale. and now swtor are expecting these people who are tired with this kind fo game format to swallow yet another one!! who are they trying to kid.
LotrO has held over about 200-300k subs for several years without steep player drops as you've seen with a lot of other MMO's. WoW has grown explosively and then held over 10 million subs for 6-7 years now since its launch.
Compared to other types of MMO's and considering that MMO's like Rift and Aion still do better than most sandbox or non-themepark MMO's, I think it's clear that you're wrong in your assumption that people have grown tired of that kind of MMO gameplay, that's just your own taste and problem if you can't enjoy that kind of MMO's anymore. People may grow weary of WoW after years of playing it, but that doesn't mean the same as that they've grown tired and burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay, and it also doesn't mean that they'll jump ship in whole flocks to sandbox type of MMO's or all kinds of innovative MMO's.
There was a reason that WoW and its typical style of gameplay appealed to so many people for so many years, people who've gone burnt out or hating themepark gameplay often tend to forget that little detail.
the numbers do ofcourse speak for them selves. but it doesnt account for the growing number of people looking for the next thing. ive met and spoken to many wow players that are saying entire guilds are leaving the game now. granted these are just the words of indivuals. but the growing number of threads of how wow players want something more is definately clue, also those numbers you show are easily falsified, soe are doing just that with swg. they are falsifying, their server population numbers, and i tried to find the server pops last night and was unable to find anything since 2008. that just me they are hiding something. so if they can do it im pretty confident all others can too.. wow isnt as popular as people think, sure it may have had 10 mill subs, but i highly doubt its had that for the last 7 years. i logged in my wow account for the first time in 3 years and it was dead.. maybe it was just my server.
ok maybe ive put it wrong,, grown tired is probably not that accurate term, maybe i should have said grown tired but dont really have much else to try other than wow clones which offer the same exact game play as wow.. so i supposed tired should be replaced with bored. all new mmo's are wow clones, they are al the same just with diffrent looks. its boreing and its starting to be noticed.
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The e3 stream vid on youtube showed the worst shooter like combat i ever saw in any game up to now.
Porting a shooting combat into a old tab targeting combat system without even tweaking it, is the worst thing i ever saw in any game. I think everyone here will agree on how bad it look and feel.
It is even worst than what Darkfall team made when they ported fps like combat to sword combat. Just tottally unatractive and missplaced.
How could they have ignored 10 years of shooter game history is beyond me. They could at least have tweaked a bit their combat system to put in some dodge moves, put some rock for the gamer to cover behind, have the movement impact the end result of the fight, anything that are a standard in any shooter is just plain missing in the videos.
I just feel sorry for Bioware, i really expected them to raise the themepark game quality, but it just doesn't look like that. Combat system is one of the main aspect of a mmo, the game can be a jewel, if it have a bad combat system the game will not keep any interest to me. In fact they just prooved my worst expectation with this show. I don't think i will involve myself more in this game, and its a shame because i'm one of those watching the first Star wars when i was like 10 and still got great memory from that.
They should push back this game development for one or 2 year and actually try to adapt their game to the IP, and not the way around. Thats my 2 cents for them and Lucas. When i do my job i adapt it to my client not the way around, i'm sorry guys you should knopw this better than I. And this have nothign to do with what they said or not, what they have to do for the show or not. The consideration i'm writing here have nothing to do with those, its plain adaptability process. You simply cannot fit a cube into a ball and think it will look nice, period.
When did they ever state that they were going to insert more shooter-like combat into the game? The answer to that is, they didn't. I think you have the wrong idea of what BioWare is going for here. The combat is going to be based upon stats, like most RPG's are. I'm glad they're going this route as opposed to a game where someone can jump around like Johnny Jackass and win because they move like they just did a pound of blow. I'm not saying I don't like FPS games, I'm just saying I'm glad TOR isn't like that.
There is going to be all kinds of hype, but being able to read through the lines and understand that this is just another in a series of clones should be possible with the videos coming out now whether or not there is an open beta.
The hype machine is big with AAA MMO's now so pull out the data you need to make a purchase without getting all emotional, and make it or wait until you have enough data to push you in that direction.
I am really hyped about TSW so I know how you guys getting hyped about SWTOR feel. Just read between the lines. Don't overhype it. It is just another clone with ridiculously high production quality in the Star Wars universe with some pretty slick features. It will be a solid game, but it won't be the end all be all.
I agree, dont really know why the expectation of it being like, say, the Jedi Knight series came from. I expected it it be like the KotOR series. The game Bioware developed before, and that this game is based upon.
Whatever honestly. I was so sure they will pull something great from the usual themepark formula, but we got the worst of it. At least when it come to shooting class as shown in E3 stream vid. Making an error by choice won't ease the pain by much, beleive me.
I'll keep this short. First after reading all this thread, I think there are still many of you out there judging this game by what you want or hope it to be rather than what it is. No good can ever come of this. No matter how much you yammer on about might have beens and should have beens, no developer is going to have an epiphany and say "Oh my goodness he's right", and go back and waste another 2 or more years and who knows how much money, re-tailoring their game to suit you. Sorry but that is just the honest truth.
Now let's move on to what SWTOR isn't. Reguardless of what some anti-fans have said, SWOTR is not just Wow in space. Bioware has added and adapted other features from other MMOs other than Wow, but as has been lamented here, not really anything we've never seen before. So that means that SWOTR is RIFT in space.
There. Now I've displeased everyone. My work here is done.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Except that Rift don't have and never wanted to have guns and shooting combat, thats the whole difference you see, and thats why i must look so upset here.
Shooting combat have his huge history in gaming, and you just can't ignore it behind a "we make an old scholl mmo" kind of attitude, it just don't work. This is where is the limit you should not cross as a developer imo. Thats why i make all that fuzz about adaptability and ip stuff.
THIS!
And it sounds great to me
bring it on.
Just because something has guns does not mean it has to be yet another call of Mediocrity or Halow style shooter, this is a story based starwars MMO.
Ranged combat does not = shooter, it equals blaster combat from KoToR thats all.
I still feel the anaology holds water as Rift has two ranged classes, one with a pet to hold mobs at range and the other that doesn't and has to kite mobs around in circles like a moron.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
The story have nothing to do with combat system, i don't critisized the story and the quest system.
And did i ever asked to have a fps like combat system? NO
I have seen some great tab targeting combat system, for me Uo combat system is one of the best even today, even better that most fps, tab targeting or fps have nothing to do with the quality of the combat system. If you want a good quality shooting game, you just can't have 2 guy pew pewing at each other at short range not moving at all, fps or tab targeting have noting to do here. Why does this even need explaination? i understand some people want to defend their game, but there is nothing defendable here, i'm sorry.
Thumbs up for me. This is why I am looking forward to this game. I have watched and seen everything so far. The tatooine footage was finally enough for me to know I will like this game . BIG shared zones like that will be a hoot on a PVP server. The only flaw I see there is that with only the two factions if one severly off sets the other the Open PVP type server might not be too fun for the underdogs.
So I am all set from a PVE view and it appears to be a game I will want. One things I still HAVE NOT seen is what they do about being attacked in PVP while locked in a dialogue with an NPC quest giver.
I have a bad feeling that it will get real old real fast and be fun for a month or 2. I find it takes a real fun pvp system to keep a game fun longer then a few months .
Exactly!
Another old school style MMO with a gimmick (story instead of rifts) thrown in to try to convince itself it won't be boring after the first 2 months.
That is a silly statement and a broad over generalization. I am not a fanboy of this game (but am starting to like it more as I see more) and while drawing some comparisons to other popular MMOs might allow you to generalize like that there are many, fairly significant differences, even with the classes and how they are structured, from RIFT or WOW.
It is not just RIFT in space.
Examples:
Companion Characters, fully voiced with option dialogue that impacts the game for you, Player housing in your large ships that you gain... yes, all the story elements too which is not insignificant, Space combat, and many other things as well.
Correct on both points. Sadly though that doesn't mean that they hold no kernel of truth what so ever. The features you list sound nice. BUT I don't feel they will do a single thing to change the fact I'll get bored once I reach level cap becuse Bioware seems to be sticking to the old stand by of Raid, BG, Heroics, and not much else.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
It's called rhetoric and while a good speaker, or in this case poster, will use rhetoric to prove a point . . . way to may people abuse it in order to cloud the real issue. For example, using the term "WoW Clone" is an abuse of rhetoric because it is a gross over-exaggeration of the comparrison of the two games, while saying it reminds me of WoW because of A, B, and C, would be a proper use of rhetoric.
I'm glad Tardcore, that you recognized what the previous poster had to say, but I am almost wondering if ANY of the MMOs out today or even coming out in the next few years could manage to keep you interested for long. There are only so many models that can be implemented in this genre after all and for the most part, they are out there in one game or another. To me it sounds like you are suffering from MMO burnout and just take a break for a year or so. I tried it and it is amazing how much it helps to improve your outlook on gaming or at least it did for me.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
People need to equip their tinfoil hats and blacked out sunglasses....
Swtor looks great and if my beta key isn't here soon..... I'll just wait longer. :P
If the end game consists of raiding for gear or doing small scale instanced PvP, then many players will not play the end game. Many players will though.
Even with all the additions to the classic mmorpg formula, what you spend the majority of your time doing is what you're going to see the game as. I am burned out on the whole Raid for Gear, PvP for Gear end game, so I'm not likely to stick around for an extended period of time for that type of game play. I am perfectly willing to buy the box and play through the leveling process if it's fun. Which is what it all comes down to, is the game fun? Are you getting what you want out of it? If the answer is, "No", then don't play it. If the answer is, "Yes", then play it, even if tomorrow the answer will be, "No".
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All good discussion, I resort to rhetoric and hyperbole to spur conversation, (well and to mock those that mistake both of them for cold hard facts). Anyway I'll just address the MMO burnout comment. With the exception of one month of Fallen Earth, 3 weeks of wow during the Cat beta, and about one month of DCUO beta, I haven't played MMOs for nearly two years. The only game I've played in that time for more than a month has been Rift. A game I didn't expect to enjoy, but really really did. However now that I have reached end game on 4 toons, in two seperate factions, the repetitive activites the game offers isn't enough to keep me entertained. I enjoy the journey but not so much the destination. It looks like SWTOR is shaking out to be exactly the same. I'm sure I'll enjoy the hell out of the game, UNTIL I find myself with no choice but to repeat the same actions over and over at end game. Activities that are espcially annoying when almost every game since 2005 uses the exact same schtick. Now does that mean I'm burnt on repetitive end game mechanics? Yes. Do I feel I am the most to blame for this? No. Until a gaming company evolves end game, nothing is going to make me decide I like to like these kinds of pointless repeats, short of a lobotomy.
That said, understand my point on this thread hasn't been to insult SWTOR for having these simialr features to other games, but to rattle the cages of those posters who are letting their delusional fantasies blind them to what this game is actually going to be. And I mean both the hardcore fans and anti fans of this game. The people who discount the game as just wow in space, I feel, aren't giving it a fair look, but alternatively the people who think this game is going to be something earth shakingly new and different are also treating the game just as unfairly, and setting themselves up for bitter dissapointment. So I'm just trying to insert a little "reality adjustment" into their day.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Besides Raids, BG, Heroics, I would argue that there is a deep enough crafting system and companion system to keep someone occupied end game. Also, the game world itself is so much bigger that an explorer type gamer will have a suitable endgame in that regard as well. especially compared to rift which is quite small. The rerollers have a LOT to look forward to since basically they get a whole new srpg experience with each class.
My list for SWTOR's endgame would be:
Raid,Flashpoint,Warzone,Crafting,Companions,Exploration,Reroll. All of these features are extensive enough to be a valid endgame option. The only endgame feature left that I am holding out hope for is some sort of world pvp system.
its all about the sales today. im not a hater or a fanboi.. im a starwars fan as well as a very good mmo fan. now my idea of very good isnt necessarily the same as say a wow players idea of a good mmo. but i do have around 10 years of mmo gaming experience under my belt in many mmo's across many diffrent genres, and i can honestly say none of them hit all the marks, and some of them come really close and even have future content planned that will enable them to hit all the marks.
i have how ever noticed that the majority of mmo's namely wow and its clones or wanna be's are falling short of orribinal design, they are just copies of copies of copies and the oil is getting thinner with each new addition of dilution. now wow wasnt a particular thick game to start with, but it was the first of its kind. which deserves some merit in the whole experimentation sense of it all. but wow just wasnt ever going to be more than it is now, it basically means its players today are left found wanting and needing more. dissapointed is the word that comes to mind.
now through my past playing experience online. ive found that story driven and based mmo games never really fullfil or entertain for a pronlonged period of time. sure the story is epic while it lasts, but we have all seen it before. just check out lord of the rings online, great to read the books then watch the films and then oh look we get to play the story out again in a game. now i dont know about you guys but thats just dragging on alittle too much for me. and lotro doesnt have the content to support the game. its very boreing once you have been through the all the quests and stories. crafting is a shambles leaving pretty much nothing left to do, and the pvp is one single fixed location, a single map. not even exctieing. exploreing is pointless as the quests pretty much cover all the areas.
and now we have swtor. the devs know the game is going to look feel play and sound the same as wow and lotro, they would be complete idiots to not realise this, so they are frying our minds with these awesome movie trailers and i mean awesome. some of the best cinimatics ive ever seen in a game!! but guess what!! we are not going to be playing the movie trailers.
the game its self looks utterly nothing like the trailers, in no way shape or form do these trailers represent the game, sure its a starwars trailer, but hell no you cannot do all those moves, and oh no the game is not as epic as the trailers look. infact the combat in swtor is the same as lotro very boreing. static based auto aim auto hit junk.. its WOW format. we are still getting wow clones and swtor is the next one in line.
the hype will for sure deal a devastateing blow to swtor in the long run, in the short run the hype will promise a significant income to the developers.
chance are they dont want the game to last so long, maybe it is for a quick cash injection. i suspect the game will be out for a couple of years as pay to play then quickly move to the f2p format and there for put on the back boiler while the developers create the next cash injection/money spinner.
i think this game is going to be a pile of crap. it will play and look like lotro which is a clone of wow meaning swtor is just another wow clone. hell swtor is barely show signs of being an mmo game. companions limit multiplay. and allthe clips ive seen are of groups of players in flashpoints which are ofcourse just instances. nothing new, just diffrent names.
there is going to be alot of dissapointed people indeed, and im one of them already. i dont need to wait for the game to come out to know im dissapointed. and im usualy a glass half full kind of guy too. you can tell its going to dissapoint, just look at lotro servers, they are becoming barren too. wow is looseing its appeal on a global scale. and now swtor are expecting these people who are tired with this kind fo game format to swallow yet another one!! who are they trying to kid.
LotrO has held over about 200-300k subs for several years without steep player drops as you've seen with a lot of other MMO's. WoW has grown explosively and then held over 10 million subs for 6-7 years now since its launch.
Compared to other types of MMO's and considering that MMO's like Rift and Aion still do better than most sandbox or non-themepark MMO's, I think it's clear that you're wrong in your assumption that people have grown tired of that kind of MMO gameplay, that's just your own taste and problem if you can't enjoy that kind of MMO's anymore. People may grow weary of WoW after years of playing it, but that doesn't mean the same as that they've grown tired and burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay, and it also doesn't mean that they'll jump ship in whole flocks to sandbox type of MMO's or all kinds of innovative MMO's.
There was a reason that WoW and its typical style of gameplay appealed to so many people for so many years, people who've gone burnt out or hating themepark gameplay often tend to forget that little detail.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
the numbers do ofcourse speak for them selves. but it doesnt account for the growing number of people looking for the next thing. ive met and spoken to many wow players that are saying entire guilds are leaving the game now. granted these are just the words of indivuals. but the growing number of threads of how wow players want something more is definately clue, also those numbers you show are easily falsified, soe are doing just that with swg. they are falsifying, their server population numbers, and i tried to find the server pops last night and was unable to find anything since 2008. that just me they are hiding something. so if they can do it im pretty confident all others can too.. wow isnt as popular as people think, sure it may have had 10 mill subs, but i highly doubt its had that for the last 7 years. i logged in my wow account for the first time in 3 years and it was dead.. maybe it was just my server.
ok maybe ive put it wrong,, grown tired is probably not that accurate term, maybe i should have said grown tired but dont really have much else to try other than wow clones which offer the same exact game play as wow.. so i supposed tired should be replaced with bored. all new mmo's are wow clones, they are al the same just with diffrent looks. its boreing and its starting to be noticed.