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At what point does an MMORPG become a grind? (To you)
Creslin321
Member Posts: 5,359
There's usually some point at which an MMORPG ceases to be fun and just becomes an endless repitiion of banal activities, or a "grind." I think that different players probably have different definitions (or thresholds) of when an MMORPG they are playing just becomes another grind. I thought it would be interesting to share and discuss our different takes on when an MMORPG ceases to be fund and becomes a grind.
For me, it seems like the right combination of extremely repetitive tasks and a complacency due to a lack of real danger/challenge turns the MMORPG into a grind. WoW-esque games with their lax death penalties, only consensual PvP, and extremely easy and repetitive combat/questing become "grindy" to me real fast.
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When it runs out of story line / quests and lacks meaningful PvP
Just after level cap, and I realize its another grindfest for gear, in which if you dont keep up you cant raid or compete well in PvP....But of course, all MMOs are designed that way to keep you playing.
When I need to complete the same quests (kill x mob, collect x items) over and over again in order to level up.
Yeah I can emphasize with this. I have actually quit some MMORPGs just a few levels BEFORE the cap because I could see the raid/gear grind coming, and it's really not something that appeals to me.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
For me grind = When it takes a month of regular play to hit level 20, and I realize I have to raise another 50 levels to get to the "fun" content.
I have a very similar standard though my definition of 'challenging' is probably different than yours.
I like to recreate scenarios and see how I can change things to get a different outcome. Thus I am much more resistant to repetition than other people. The key to me is that I am able to repeat a situation with meaningfull changes. Once I reach a stage where I do not find new interersting variations to a scenario then I begin to consider further repetition a grind.
It's for this reason why I find most PvP content to be extremely grindy since it's mostly unrepeatable one time events that are hard to analyze.
well usually everytime i do something i more or less dont want to just to reach some goal
For me its at the so called end game which for me is generally time to end subscription. I just despise large raids, large being bigger then anything higher then 10 people. But even that to me gets old fast to much cordination I like to be able to log in do my thing and not feel like i'm letting people down because rl comes calling, plus alot of the times I'm more then happy just to see the content then have to be rewarded, I'd love the option to be able to go through raid content solo and get no gear just to check it out. But normally I buy the game play halfway to end level then move on before I even get tempted to play the gear grind.
I was going to post in the other thread about MMO's and people being just fed up with the general MMO scene because most are generic grind fests without anything new or innovative
but it seems the thread was nuked for some reason : (starting to wonder about the moderation around here >_>)
I wonder how many people browse the site but don't actually have any subscription to a MMO atm.
It might have to reach the point where there are a large number of gamers who want a MMO but can't see paying for the current junk they keep releasing before we get something that isn't a rehash of the same old tired concepts.
I know i ask a lot.. but game developers need to understand... you aren't going to make the next big WoW by slapping a generic theme on a WoW style grinding game.
WoW was a once in a generation fluke
That point is pretty simple for me, and I think this actually is a commonality between all players, to some degree.
The point at which an MMO becomes a grind is when you find yourself paying more attention to the numbers rather than enjoying the game experience.
Whether this is pushing on to get "that last 15K to level", or "making that last run to get the gear that is 3% better", or "getting that last 20K in faction points" or "knocking out the last 1.5K gold for [insert mount/item/etc.]", it really doesn't matter.
Granted, there are stages of this. The first time you get a purple item, or you're able to achieve "esteemed" and get a piece of darn good gear, or when you realize you've just made 1000g in the last hour, or ding level XX, it's a rush. You think "wow, just [insert amount here] more, and...". That's the very beginning stages of the downward spiral. Soon, it becomes less about the game and more about "Keeping up with the Joneses" or purely number-crunching how many BGs are needed to attain XYZ honor to get ABC item.
That's the death of the game. It's also been the death of the game for a number of friends - and when I identified this one breaking point, they all agreed with me, that after 2-3 weeks of that mindset, the game was over and they let their sub lapse. It was true for people I knew in SWG, true for NWN players, true for WOW (and all expansions), AoC, etc.
My personal belief is that this too closely approximates real-life. I mean, basically, you're grinding $8 or $30 an hour to maintain ABC lifestyle, get the [insert new car here], or whatever. If it approximates real life too much, why not just... live real life?
We generally play games to be heroes, or villains. Rather, the idea of heroes and villains. We do these games as an escape from the mundane. When the actions repeat themselves overmmuch, in order to attain a goal, you've broken "immersion" immensely.
I know immersion is a bad word - and most who use it want to be entriely engaged in a fantasy world without any discrepancies. I'm not using the term in that context. I'm using it in the context of "fun". In fact, you can just substitute the word "immersion" for "fun" to make it more clear if you wish.
It's not "immersive" to work another job. We play games to have immersion in something quite different than real life. Even the games which replicate real life - is so we can live another's life (Brad Pitt, the rich kid without any worries and nice car, etc.) and be able to experience something we want to be immersed in, which we can't for whatever reason.
I've rambled on long enough, but I think I've made my point.
The second I stop enjoying it. Quite simple really.
A few things that make the grind more noticable to me:
1) Daily quests or even quests that are very similar.
2) Soloing.
3) Tokens or points for gear upgrades.
4) Gear upgrades that are very minor such as one or two stat points. Of course I have to re-gem/enchant them.
5) Lack of dungeon variety.
6) Instances.
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When you reach level cap and forced either to reroll a new toon or do same 3 instance to get those pixel epics that will be useless anyway when the next expansion comes along.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Its hard to say for me. and probably depends greatly on the game.
FFXI which is normaly considered a grindfest, I enjoyed and played to the point of addiction. Now granted I killed the same thing day in and day out, every 10 levels or so going to a new area, but because of the way the game was setup, and the challenge and the people I had alot of fun...and even to this day don't consider it a grindfest. or even really grinding.
Now you take WoW as another game I've played, and by the time I had reached 65 (when 70 was cap) it was just a grind, I did the same dungions, the same daily quest, going to the same places...and it was boring, that to me was a grind. (Hence the reason I quit and have never touched wow again)
Anyways I would say probably the largest one factor would be soloing stuff, when i'm playing by myself its way easier to get bored, and once i'm bored I don't care what i'm doing it turns into a grind.
So i would say community is #1 as far as grind is considered.
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When they add content that is basically, if you do this 250 times you will become a little more powerful. And then you do whatever that is and they nerf you, taking you back to square 1. Yeah, I'm talking to you WoW.
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The term grind can be defined simply as having to take part in lengthy mandatory activities, usually repetitive, within the game that, from our personal point of veiw, take time that could better be spent doing something else within the game that we enjoy more.
IMO, there are two causes and each are interrelated;
1) Players have convinced developers that they don't want to have to rely on other players.
2) As a result of player desire to "do it all" we've seen the breakdown of the business game and the distribution of labor within games of the gere.
Pre-NGE Star Wars was succesful for this reason and is widly regarded, imperfect as it was, as one of the best MMO's to date.
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A grind to me is performing the same activity whether it be solo, group, event or raid in order to obtain a reward. Reward is being used here as a broad term to cover anything that improves the performance or appearance of my avatar.
Games can still have repeatable missions - it works best for crafting. after all crafting requires similar components.
For me, there's two ways to be a grind.
If I'm not having fun, not matter what I'm doing in game, it's a grind.
If I don't want to do it but need to for some reason, it's a grind.
The very moment you start playing FFxiv, it becomes a grind. And I love it. Can't wait until its improved also.
At what point does an MMORPG become a grind? (To you)
At the point where the reward I expect is outweighed by the time invested.
For me personally, this means any pure XP grind (I don't care about levelling all that much), or where the drop rate is so low as to be non existant (I am looking at you Aion-at-launch).
I also get bored really fast if I am expected to grind in the same environment over and over... I loathe rerunning the same instance 50 times to make armour sets or whetever.
So, there it is I guess... I like grinding if there is a decent enougb reward and I have choice in where I do it.
Hey Cres, peeps,
Good question. I can tell you that the second I get a grindy feeling that I think will last for too long, I am off (played some 70+ MMORPG by now).
I do have a different take perhaps than most, or rather I would use your question to point out why I never, ever play the game I wish to find. I play what they make. Because I can either be constantly disappointed, and miss a *lot* of what the devs put in their title (simply because *I* might not have put it in), or I can roll with the flow, try to find out why they did a lot of things that I might have preferred differently. This leads to me often finding out they had good reason to do it their way. And often, they messed it up, IMAO
The benefit of my approach (for me that is) would be that even in games that have grinds, I have at least a diversity of grinds, if that makes sense. I explore a lot (no grind to me), I craft a lot (often grindy), I fight a lot (more often than not, grindy) and I try to adjust to all the things around me. This makes a varied game, whether its Global Agenda or CoX or Atlantica or EQ2: if you dig into every aspect of the games, you will at least soon find there is no such thing as 'a completely bad game'. There are things you like, things you do not like, and things probably done very poorly. But never have I found a game where I found *nothing* to my liking.
Anecdote: once, I was quietly solo-questing (solo is not alone 8-) ) talking to guildies etc. and helping on a Help Chat and along the way I pluck the plant and dig the ore, so that when I have to go underwater I can make a Potion of Underwater breathing and after combats, I can restore while still doing useful stuff like exploring and gathering. Along come a group of 3 to 5 (I forget) youngstah's who GOGOGO kill everything today we kill things KILL KILL KILL we gotta level man GOGOGO (ok I'll be back for that quest later, shall I?). They apparently (from their open chat) spent the whole day killing things. Then the next day they would craft, and the day after, explore (or something similar). THAT was the system!
Next day, I find the same bunch, and while I had been quietly doing the diversity thing, found out I had gained more xp (bleh, I care about people, not xp gold gear or levels) and more useful items than they had. It seems they did not pause to think that if you kill something and sit still to recoupe, that is not very effective.
What struck me most, and I see this often, is that anyone can possibly mistake all these mega-grinds for fun?
My conclusion: if I no longer think the next fight can kill me, I am off.
Lucas (currently in AoEO, DP & EoW).
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when u are forced to :
kill mobs to lvl up
repeat daily quest to level up (forsaken world 4 example)
repeating the same thing OVER and OVER and OVER = grind
Endgame is and always will be a grind , because loot isnt always guarenteed. And thats its how it works......but im ok with that.
On topic:
Grind for me is doing the same over thing and over, be it kill X (fill in appropriate level MOB here), doing the same dungeons for gear, doing daily quests.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
a game becomes a grind when I start to complete tasks to acheive the reward, instead of enjoying the task at hand. So I personally don't consider raiding to be a grind because I enjoy raiding. Killing mob X 50 times is more of a grind because by the time I get through them I already have the fight memorized and the challenge/enjoyment is gone. People would say that a raid is the same thing but it adds the variable of the human element which tends to make it more challenging, and I am always trying to outperform the other players for dps, healing or whatever. That keeps the challenge and entertainment alive.
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I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
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Ditto.
Gear grind sucks...period. I don't even care how you might attempt to disguise it. It's boring. If I have to run the same dungeons over and over and over again, almost ad infinitum, to obtain a full set of the "latest greatest" gear....fuck that. It was boring after the 10th run, what makes them think 22 runs will make it fun? I'd rather leave the game at level cap, or close to it, if gear grind is my ONLY end game option.
Let's see some MMOs that actually OFFER end game options that are more interesting and diverse. I'm not saying let's toss out raiding. I'm saying let's look BEYOND it and offer MORE.
By the way....UO and EQ2 have been my favorite MMOs mostly because I felt like they gave me the most CHOICES in what to do, not only at end game, but through out the games. Just my opinion.
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