What many of you are ignoring is that, without the changes they made to the cash shop, the game would not have survived and would not be here today. All those developers would've lost their jobs and be unemplyed, and the gamers who loved the game and were willing to pay to play it would not have any option but to not play it.
How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.
They released a product, they tweaked a product, they monotized a product, they profit from the product.
When you start looking at games from a business perspective, you are no longer making games. You're making cheap forms of entertainment that are bland and disgusting. Part of the reason why our industry is the way it is today is because we have tight-ass CEOs in monkey suits who have never played a game in their life who are making all the decisions instead of letting devoted, passionate developers work their magic and change the future of gaming for the better.
Bullshit.
If you want a game studio to survive to make a game, much less to become a success, you NEED to look at games from a business perspective. You need to attract investors to give you money to get your studio off the ground, and you have to be able to answer to those investors so they stay confident in your vision and in you. You need to have a business plan to attract talent to work for you, because people need to get paid so they can live. Bills need to get paid so that you have a place to create your games.
Working in gaming isn't just about making the games. It's also about the reality of business. You have to balance both. As much fun as it would be to go to work and make games for a living, there is the fundamental fact that every game studio is still a business at heart.
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
We once lived in the age of video games that were actually good, required skll and took immense amount of practice to be good at. Prime examples: Quake and Unreal Tournament. Look how far the FPS genre has fallen with Modern Warfail. All because of these businessmen wanting to reach the casuals. Perhaps you need an example that's a little more in your language: MMORPGs. Why is every single MMORPG coming out nowadays a copy of:
A) A korean grindfest.
OR
World of Warcraft?
Business. Are these games typically regarded as successful?
...
You want to know why? Because they and their "business perspective" told them to make it to try and emulate the success of that game. What really sells is when someone reinvents the wheel and creates a TRUE work of art. Something different. Fresh. That's why you and your "business perspective" will fail every single time in the gaming industry.
I posted this in another thread, but it's still relevent.
I'm sure there's research out there that points to a greater increase in revenue for companies when they offer items that give a distinct advantage, but you have to ask yourself if it's morally right. Honestly, I disagree with Pay to Win. I think it ruins what the Free to Play movement is all about. Making quality games available for everyone.
The object of a game isn't to see who can spend the most money. It's to enjoy it.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
How is any of that article disgusting. In fact, it makes complete business sense.
Ah, but that's the problem. Game developers aren't allowed to make money or make business decisions. Didn't you know?
There's no such thing as a game development studio being a business. They're supposed to make games for people to play and enjoy without any thought to their own survival or profits. What kind of greedy bastards would care about finding a payment structure that is popular with their customers and profitable so they can pay their employees and keep the lights on?
Yeah I mean who cares about the ethics of business, sportsmanship, or any of that hippie mumbo jumbo. People play games to pay developers, damn it, not to have fun in a competitve setting.
You seem to think that the only way a game developer can be ethical is if they subscribe to your worldview, or if they somehow don't give a shit about making money. Real life doesn't work that way.
Game development studios are still businesses at heart. They have to make money to pay people and pay their bills and keep the lights on so they can keep making games. That's how it works, same as any other business.
You can have all the fun you want in a competitive setting and have gamer-made rules of sportsmanship, etc. but you also have to just get over it and face the fact that without some sort of profitable payment plan in place for an MMO or online game, none of them are going to last. It doesn't matter how many people on message boards complain about Buy 2 Win or whatever -- if it makes the studios money and if most of their customers are in favor of it, then that's how they pay the bills.
Originally posted by Sovrath This is very telling as sooooo many people on forums make the mistake that forums measure the player base. Yet they discovered that 78% of their players didn't go to the forums and only 2% actually posted.
If more players (See: 80%+) visited at least the official forum of the MMO they're subscribed to, we could have circumvented so many negative trends in the MMO genre to date. Unfortunately, too many of them just don't care.
Is that true?
According to that talk, at least in that example, the small small group of people were screaming that they were going to leave the game, that pay to win was bad and the truth was that some large portion of the player base disagreed.
What else would they disagree with? Maybe these are the exact people who would scream for more instancing or faster leveling?
In any case, I don't think it's that people "don't care". It's that people aren't gamers.
they are not.
They like to play games but they don't want to eat, drink and be subject to discussions on their games. They just want to play and then log off and do something else.
it is we who are the anomaly.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You seem to think that the only way a game developer can be ethical is if they subscribe to your worldview, or if they somehow don't give a shit about making money. Real life doesn't work that way.
Game development studios are still businesses at heart. They have to make money to pay people and pay their bills and keep the lights on so they can keep making games. That's how it works, same as any other business.
You can have all the fun you want in a competitive setting and have gamer-made rules of sportsmanship, etc. but you also have to just get over it and face the fact that without some sort of profitable payment plan in place for an MMO or online game, none of them are going to last. It doesn't matter how many people on message boards complain about Buy 2 Win or whatever -- if it makes the studios money and if most of their customers are in favor of it, then that's how they pay the bills.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you.
I dont believe in buy to win but if it makes money then there is a market for it. They would be stupid not to do it if they show (which they do) that people are willing to pay for items.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
You're making the mistake of thinking no one attempts to make a "work of art", for one it's a lot harder to accomplish than you seem to think.
Bobby Kotick is a mouth piece, he's not attempting to make games at all, he's attempting to make Acti-blizz, the most successful company in gaming. The people whom actually make COD on the other hand are attempting to make a "GOOD" game.
You see you need people like Coatlick, they make it possible for companies like them to pay highly skilled devs to work on projects. You don't need one, you need 100's or more to have a successful multi-game company. Thats' who makes good games after all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
I never said that at all. Looking at the reality of business =/= catering to the bottom.
HOWEVER, every game development studio on this site is still a business. I don't give a good goddamn how deep, satisfying, or sandbox-y their games are -- they still have to pay their employees and make money and show their investors that their plans work. THAT'S THE POINT. That's how real life works.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
Find me a single game studio anywhere that doesn't give a shit about making money or paying their bills. Just one. Please. I'd love to see them, and know how they're managing to pay their talent to work for them, and how they manage to get anything done.
We once lived in the age of video games that were actually good, required skll and took immense amount of practice to be good at. Prime examples: Quake and Unreal Tournament.
And yet both Epic Games and id Software? Still businesses, with bills to pay and talent to attract and investors to make happy. Imagine that. They managed to make those games you love, and STILL look at the reality of business at the end of the day.
They wouldn't still exist if they ignored the business end of the gaming industry.
You want to know why? Because they and their "business perspective" told them to. What really sells is when someone reinvents the wheel and creates a TRUE work of art. Something different. Fresh. That's why you and your "business perspective" will fail every single time in the gaming industry.
You're treating business and creativity as mutually exclusive. They're not. They're complimentary in the right hands. And the reality of the gaming industry is that you need both to survive.
Originally posted by Sovrath This is very telling as sooooo many people on forums make the mistake that forums measure the player base. Yet they discovered that 78% of their players didn't go to the forums and only 2% actually posted.
If more players (See: 80%+) visited at least the official forum of the MMO they're subscribed to, we could have circumvented so many negative trends in the MMO genre to date. Unfortunately, too many of them just don't care.
Is that true?
According to that talk, at least in that example, the small small group of people were screaming that they were going to leave the game, that pay to win was bad and the truth was that some large portion of the player base disagreed.
What else would they disagree with? Maybe these are the exact people who would scream for more instancing or faster leveling?
In any case, I don't think it's that people "don't care". It's that people aren't gamers.
they are not.
They like to play games but they don't want to eat, drink and be subject to discussions on their games. They just want to play and then log off and do something else.
it is we who are the anomaly.
Well actually according to that research, 78% of their consumers were simply uninformed. I agree that gamers are the anomoly, but I don't agree that nongamers should just be ignorant of what's happening.
It's a moot point, though, because I do the only thing I can do: I raise hell when bad changes are made, and I completely avoid pay-to-win games and companies known for them. I don't play F2P games anyway (except TF2 now ^^), but unfortunately gaming is a part of my, and my family's (fiancee and her two children all game) downtime. We have lives, but we're also gamers.
Now cash shops are being added to subscrption titles on top of the $15 a month, and there are talks of adding in-game advantages to EvE of all games. How long until those in-game advantages hit SW:TOR to cover their massive (I know it's not $300m) budget? How long before WoW's gold coffers need to be upgraded to diamond ones? How long before ArcheAge needs to make some extra cash in the West and add the option to pay to recharge your Labor Point pool?
What I'm saying is, this business model is taking over the entire genre. Is it profitable? Yes. Is it destroying the genre as we know it? Well, it's certainly a factor for me.
You're making the mistake of thinking no one attempts to make a "work of art", for one it's a lot harder to accomplish than you seem to think.
There's also the common mistake that people make when they think that art is simply created out of the ether and that money and commerce play no role in it.
Some of the most famous and enduring art in history was done strictly for money, to satisfy a patron/investor, and to pay the bills. It's entirely possible to be both creative AND mindful of having to make a living.
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
Thats' who makes good games after all.
Really? What games are those? Do tell.
I don't know all the good games that have ever released?
Edit-To add- You have to be able to see through things you don't like to understand this I suppose, as a well made game isn't only what you think of personally as a well made game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
I never said that at all. Looking at the reality of business =/= catering to the bottom.
HOWEVER, every game development studio on this site is still a business. I don't give a good goddamn how deep, satisfying, or sandbox-y their games are -- they still have to pay their employees and make money and show their investors that their plans work. THAT'S THE POINT. That's how real life works.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
Find me a single game studio anywhere that doesn't give a shit about making money or paying their bills. Just one. Please. I'd love to see them, and know how they're managing to pay their talent to work for them, and how they manage to get anything done.
We once lived in the age of video games that were actually good, required skll and took immense amount of practice to be good at. Prime examples: Quake and Unreal Tournament.
And yet both Epic Games and id Software? Still businesses, with bills to pay and talent to attract and investors to make happy. Imagine that. They managed to make those games you love, and STILL look at the reality of business at the end of the day.
They wouldn't still exist if they ignored the business end of the gaming industry.
You want to know why? Because they and their "business perspective" told them to. What really sells is when someone reinvents the wheel and creates a TRUE work of art. Something different. Fresh. That's why you and your "business perspective" will fail every single time in the gaming industry.
You're treating business and creativity as mutually exclusive. They're not. They're complimentary in the right hands. And the reality of the gaming industry is that you need both to survive.
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
Every company, obviously, needs some kind of a plan to stay in business, but when you start focusing ONLY on business is when your games turn to utter shit. Most of these games of which are copies of successful titles who did something useful with their money and made something unique by concentrating on making a work of art.
Never said that there were any companies out there who didn't care about making money. The point I made was that if you make something interesting and different, you have a better chance at finding success than if you just tried to copy+paste another company's successful game.
(Oh but it is good business, isn't that what you do in a business, is make money?)
Yes, but you don't have to be a greedy asshat to do that. I hate that any business MUST post a profit or else it isn't doing well.
You could post an unheard of profit, being so happy you made that much money. But the following year, if you do not exceed that number, then your business all the sudden is failing and you need to jack up prices.
It just pisses me off to no end, the amount of greed in the world. You wonder what is causing recession? You wonder why we go to war? You wonder why you cannot get health care at your job?
It all is about greed. Greed, greed greed greed greed.
These people who buy these items to give them a "leg-up" on the competition are greedy just as well. They are greedy to be number 1, even if it costs them 100$ a month. They are greedy, greedy enough to buy these items and ruin the game for everyone else, just so they can say... "You mad bro?" or.... "Hah your a noob". The 17% in the survey who want items to allow them a greater advantage over others are greedy, selfish, and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
Greed sickens me, it is one of the worst things in the world and the cause of so much turmoil and hate.
This talk of greed is making me hate, hate these greedy bastards that populate our world.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
(Oh but it is good business, isn't that what you do in a business, is make money?)
Yes, but you don't have to be a greedy asshat to do that. I hate that any business MUST post a profit or else it isn't doing well.
Exactly, that's what I'm trying to say. For example, you don't need to lie and swindle your customers to make money, much like Best Buy does selling computers. Newegg makes PLENTY of business and doesn't need to sell awful, overpriced computers to do it.
(Oh but it is good business, isn't that what you do in a business, is make money?)
Yes, but you don't have to be a greedy asshat to do that. I hate that any business MUST post a profit or else it isn't doing well.
You could post an unheard of profit, being so happy you made that much money. But the following year, if you do not exceed that number, then your business all the sudden is failing and you need to jack up prices.
It just pisses me off to no end, the amount of greed in the world. You wonder what is causing recession? You wonder why we go to war? You wonder why you cannot get health care at your job?
It all is about greed. Greed, greed greed greed greed.
These people who buy these items to give them a "leg-up" on the competition are greedy just as well. They are greedy to be number 1, even if it costs them 100$ a month. They are greedy, greedy enough to buy these items and ruin the game for everyone else, just so they can say... "You mad bro?" or.... "Hah your a noob". The 17% in the survey who want items to allow them a greater advantage over others are greedy, selfish, and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
Greed sickens me, it is one of the worst things in the world and the cause of so much turmoil and hate.
This talk of greed is making me hate, hate these greedy bastards that populate our world.
Greed is a two way street though, it's not only companies who can be greedy over this situation. As someone said above you can look at this as much as people not wanting to pay for their entertainment, and expect it as a charity. If you don't like the F2P model, stick to the games that don't have it, it's really as simple as that. Don't expect a 100% free online service. You're going to pay at some point, or someone else is.
Look at a game like BF2 p4f, I can either pay a few bucks to get a gun to use as long as I want, and never pay again.
-OR-
Get slightly decressed fire power, that for a decent fps vet like myself really gives me no disadvantage at all, by simply playing the game, the better I do the more free stuff I earn. I'm not going to damn the company for adding enticements to make sales though. I feel no disadvantage nor do my scores by using what is free.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
Business and creativity have never been exclusive except in the minds of the naive. As I said, some of the most enduring art in history was done strictly for cash or to satisfy an investor/patron.
Again-- you're conflating the business plans that a game studio uses to pay their bills and the creative process they go through to make a game. They're not mutually exclusive, and in fact need each other to survive.
As for Pay2Win, or whatever the hell people call it, did you notice the PowerPoint presentation at the beginning of this thread? Most of the users that EA has pay no attention to the message boards, and of those that DO pay attention and do post the most, the active forum users spend MORE than the majority casual who don't go online to post or complain or ragequit about microtransactions. A bit strange, don't you think? If you're correct and microtransactions effectively reduce your revenue by making people get pissed off and leave a game forever, then why are the most active forum users and most active gamers the ones who spend 10x as much money as the more casual fans?
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
Business and creativity have never been exclusive except in the minds of the naive. As I said, some of the most enduring art in history was done strictly for cash or to satisfy an investor/patron.
Again-- you're conflating the business plans that a game studio uses to pay their bills and the creative process they go through to make a game. They're not mutually exclusive, and in fact need each other to survive.
As for Pay2Win, or whatever the hell people call it, did you notice the PowerPoint presentation at the beginning of this thread? Most of the users that EA has pay no attention to the message boards, and of those that DO pay attention and do post the most, the active forum users spend MORE than the majority casual who don't go online to post or complain or ragequit about microtransactions. A bit strange, don't you think? If you're correct and microtransactions effectively reduce your revenue by making people get pissed off and leave a game forever, then why are the most active forum users and most active gamers the ones who spend 10x as much money as the more casual fans?
EA knows how to make money.
Turbine is turning a pretty good profit.
People are prone to using hyperbole when they're faced with the inevitable change they fear. That's all C16 was on about.
(Oh but it is good business, isn't that what you do in a business, is make money?)
Yes, but you don't have to be a greedy asshat to do that. I hate that any business MUST post a profit or else it isn't doing well.
You could post an unheard of profit, being so happy you made that much money. But the following year, if you do not exceed that number, then your business all the sudden is failing and you need to jack up prices.
It just pisses me off to no end, the amount of greed in the world. You wonder what is causing recession? You wonder why we go to war? You wonder why you cannot get health care at your job?
It all is about greed. Greed, greed greed greed greed.
These people who buy these items to give them a "leg-up" on the competition are greedy just as well. They are greedy to be number 1, even if it costs them 100$ a month. They are greedy, greedy enough to buy these items and ruin the game for everyone else, just so they can say... "You mad bro?" or.... "Hah your a noob". The 17% in the survey who want items to allow them a greater advantage over others are greedy, selfish, and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
Greed sickens me, it is one of the worst things in the world and the cause of so much turmoil and hate.
This talk of greed is making me hate, hate these greedy bastards that populate our world.
On the same scale, how greedy is it to expect any semblance of a high-quality game and whatever X number of hours of entertainment you may end up having with it for free?
It's just as greedy as the people who P2W. It's just as greedy as the people who run illegal, emulated servers. It's just as greedy as the people who pirate and bootleg movies, music, software and games.
But the people making those movies, music, software and games need to survive. They have living expenses. They have goals and ambitions to attain a quality of life for themselves.
And so we have 15 dollar in-theatre movies, dollar a song distribution, 20-30 dollar blu-rays, software ranging from shareware to 5000/license, and games running the gambit of costs, from B2P, P2P and F2P. Something for everyone.
Hell, even the indies are in it for the profit. You don't see Notch shifting Minecraft F2P once he hits his yearly expected earnings need. Nope, he keeps profiting. Hell, he mentioned renting a private jet for E3, and made jokes about paying Cliffy.B's taxi fare.
No... but Mojang and Minecraft and Notch are indie-darlings.. they couldn't be greedy...
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
If you're correct and microtransactions effectively reduce your revenue by making people get pissed off and leave a game forever, then why are the most active forum users and most active gamers the ones who spend 10x as much money as the more casual fans?
They are the casual fans. Anyone who prefers quick, easy satisfaction handed to them on a silver platter is a casual. Real gamers are those who treat their games as a hobby and like to work hard towards their goals due to the stronger sense of reward and achievement that follows.
All this greedy shit does is degrade the hell out of your game and drive away your real loyal fanbase (you know, the people you owe your initial success to).
Greed is a two way street though, it's not only companies who can be greedy over this situation.
In fact, I'd argue that it was player greed that first drove the trend towards F2P and microtransactions in the first place.
Gold farmers, XP powerleveling services, etc. would never have taken off and never become an issue at all if players actually wanted to play these games without an advantage. Enough players started using those services that the MMO companies noticed. Why not just cut out the middleman and offer the services directly to the player? They're going to do it anyway, and always have, ever since EQ1 and UO were the dominant games on the market.
F2P and cash shops and Freemium models didn't just appear out of the blue. They were a long time coming. Developers didn't just wake up one morning and decide to go in this direction. Players had a hand in leading them there because of their actions too. It's exactly that two way street you're talking about.
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
If you're correct and microtransactions effectively reduce your revenue by making people get pissed off and leave a game forever, then why are the most active forum users and most active gamers the ones who spend 10x as much money as the more casual fans?
They are the casual fans. Anyone who prefers quick, easy satisfaction handed to them on a silver platter is a casual. Real gamers are those who treat their games as a hobby and like to work hard towards their goals due to the stronger sense of reward and achievement that follows.
All this greedy shit does is degrade the hell out of your game and drive away your real loyal fanbase (you know, the people you owe your initial success to).
As a musician I have to laugh at this. Not to be a prick or anything, but if the gaming world is anything like mine, it's not about us or the fans, it's about the scene}--for lack of a better term--{. Industry is to commercial for my musical taste.
Gamers are about the medium, not about dev teams. Real gamers want to support the medium, not tear it down. Just as Dev teams are in it to support the medium, and have no wish of tearing it down, they want to expand it to a wider audience.
You're mistaking purist hipsters for true fans.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
They are the casual fans. Anyone who prefers quick, easy satisfaction handed to them on a silver platter is a casual. Real gamers are those who treat their games as a hobby and like to work hard towards their goals due to the stronger sense of reward and achievement that follows.
All this greedy shit does is degrade the hell out of your game and drive away your real loyal fanbase (you know, the people you owe your initial success to).
The ones spending money are the casual fans? Are you serious? LOL.
Casual fans buy a game, play it, finish it or get bored, then move on with their lives. They don't pour extra cash into a game if they don't have to. It's the hardcore and the more dedicated gamers that will go that far. It's the dedicated Halo fanboy who downloads all the map packs and DLC. It's the dedicated Sims fan who buys the costume packs and furniture and hairstyles online from the EA store. It's the dedicated player who pours a lot of money into the game, not the casual fan.
They are the casual fans. Anyone who prefers quick, easy satisfaction handed to them on a silver platter is a casual. Real gamers are those who treat their games as a hobby and like to work hard towards their goals due to the stronger sense of reward and achievement that follows.
All this greedy shit does is degrade the hell out of your game and drive away your real loyal fanbase (you know, the people you owe your initial success to).
The ones spending money are the casual fans? Are you serious? LOL.
Casual fans buy a game, play it, finish it or get bored, then move on with their lives. They don't pour extra cash into a game if they don't have to. It's the hardcore and the more dedicated gamers that will go that far. It's the dedicated Halo fanboy who downloads all the map packs and DLC. It's the dedicated Sims fan who buys the costume packs and furniture and hairstyles online from the EA store. It's the dedicated player who pours a lot of money into the game, not the casual fan.
This trail of conversation has a purpose.
It's to show that the labels for "hardcore" "dedicated" and "casual" gamers has little to do with the size of their bank accounts.
I think fans are willing to invest both time and money in to something that they enjoy. Everything in F2P and even "buy to win" is OPTIONAL. No one is being forced to buy anything.
Can that argument be made for the subscription model? If you don't pay 14.99 a month, you don't have access to the content on the BOX that you already paid for. Talk about a panzi scheme!
Comments
What many of you are ignoring is that, without the changes they made to the cash shop, the game would not have survived and would not be here today. All those developers would've lost their jobs and be unemplyed, and the gamers who loved the game and were willing to pay to play it would not have any option but to not play it.
Right so what I need to do if I make a game is ignore all the real gamers crying out for a deep, satisfying experience and cater to all the casual bottom-feeders who instead want cheap fast food. That's what you're saying right? Lol.
If you make a game that truly is a work of art, people WILL buy it. All this "business" talk is a load of crap and is nothing more than a path of greed. Just look at Bobby Kotick; he can't touch anything without completely destroying it.
Business perspective. Hah.
We once lived in the age of video games that were actually good, required skll and took immense amount of practice to be good at. Prime examples: Quake and Unreal Tournament. Look how far the FPS genre has fallen with Modern Warfail. All because of these businessmen wanting to reach the casuals. Perhaps you need an example that's a little more in your language: MMORPGs. Why is every single MMORPG coming out nowadays a copy of:
A) A korean grindfest.
OR
Business. Are these games typically regarded as successful?
...
You want to know why? Because they and their "business perspective" told them to make it to try and emulate the success of that game. What really sells is when someone reinvents the wheel and creates a TRUE work of art. Something different. Fresh. That's why you and your "business perspective" will fail every single time in the gaming industry.
I posted this in another thread, but it's still relevent.
I'm sure there's research out there that points to a greater increase in revenue for companies when they offer items that give a distinct advantage, but you have to ask yourself if it's morally right. Honestly, I disagree with Pay to Win. I think it ruins what the Free to Play movement is all about. Making quality games available for everyone.
The object of a game isn't to see who can spend the most money. It's to enjoy it.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
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You seem to think that the only way a game developer can be ethical is if they subscribe to your worldview, or if they somehow don't give a shit about making money. Real life doesn't work that way.
Game development studios are still businesses at heart. They have to make money to pay people and pay their bills and keep the lights on so they can keep making games. That's how it works, same as any other business.
You can have all the fun you want in a competitive setting and have gamer-made rules of sportsmanship, etc. but you also have to just get over it and face the fact that without some sort of profitable payment plan in place for an MMO or online game, none of them are going to last. It doesn't matter how many people on message boards complain about Buy 2 Win or whatever -- if it makes the studios money and if most of their customers are in favor of it, then that's how they pay the bills.
Is that true?
According to that talk, at least in that example, the small small group of people were screaming that they were going to leave the game, that pay to win was bad and the truth was that some large portion of the player base disagreed.
What else would they disagree with? Maybe these are the exact people who would scream for more instancing or faster leveling?
In any case, I don't think it's that people "don't care". It's that people aren't gamers.
they are not.
They like to play games but they don't want to eat, drink and be subject to discussions on their games. They just want to play and then log off and do something else.
it is we who are the anomaly.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm afraid I have to agree with you.
I dont believe in buy to win but if it makes money then there is a market for it. They would be stupid not to do it if they show (which they do) that people are willing to pay for items.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You're making the mistake of thinking no one attempts to make a "work of art", for one it's a lot harder to accomplish than you seem to think.
Bobby Kotick is a mouth piece, he's not attempting to make games at all, he's attempting to make Acti-blizz, the most successful company in gaming. The people whom actually make COD on the other hand are attempting to make a "GOOD" game.
You see you need people like Coatlick, they make it possible for companies like them to pay highly skilled devs to work on projects. You don't need one, you need 100's or more to have a successful multi-game company. Thats' who makes good games after all.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Really? What games are those? Do tell.
Well actually according to that research, 78% of their consumers were simply uninformed. I agree that gamers are the anomoly, but I don't agree that nongamers should just be ignorant of what's happening.
It's a moot point, though, because I do the only thing I can do: I raise hell when bad changes are made, and I completely avoid pay-to-win games and companies known for them. I don't play F2P games anyway (except TF2 now ^^), but unfortunately gaming is a part of my, and my family's (fiancee and her two children all game) downtime. We have lives, but we're also gamers.
Now cash shops are being added to subscrption titles on top of the $15 a month, and there are talks of adding in-game advantages to EvE of all games. How long until those in-game advantages hit SW:TOR to cover their massive (I know it's not $300m) budget? How long before WoW's gold coffers need to be upgraded to diamond ones? How long before ArcheAge needs to make some extra cash in the West and add the option to pay to recharge your Labor Point pool?
What I'm saying is, this business model is taking over the entire genre. Is it profitable? Yes. Is it destroying the genre as we know it? Well, it's certainly a factor for me.
There's also the common mistake that people make when they think that art is simply created out of the ether and that money and commerce play no role in it.
Some of the most famous and enduring art in history was done strictly for money, to satisfy a patron/investor, and to pay the bills. It's entirely possible to be both creative AND mindful of having to make a living.
I don't know all the good games that have ever released?
Edit-To add- You have to be able to see through things you don't like to understand this I suppose, as a well made game isn't only what you think of personally as a well made game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Business and creavity are pretty damn exclusive these days. And of course you need money as a company, but implementing "Pay 2 Win" is the complete opposite direction you should be taking. That will only effectively REDUCE your revenue when pissed off fans leave your game permenantly.
Every company, obviously, needs some kind of a plan to stay in business, but when you start focusing ONLY on business is when your games turn to utter shit. Most of these games of which are copies of successful titles who did something useful with their money and made something unique by concentrating on making a work of art.
Never said that there were any companies out there who didn't care about making money. The point I made was that if you make something interesting and different, you have a better chance at finding success than if you just tried to copy+paste another company's successful game.
It sickens me.
(Oh but it is good business, isn't that what you do in a business, is make money?)
Yes, but you don't have to be a greedy asshat to do that. I hate that any business MUST post a profit or else it isn't doing well.
You could post an unheard of profit, being so happy you made that much money. But the following year, if you do not exceed that number, then your business all the sudden is failing and you need to jack up prices.
It just pisses me off to no end, the amount of greed in the world. You wonder what is causing recession? You wonder why we go to war? You wonder why you cannot get health care at your job?
It all is about greed. Greed, greed greed greed greed.
These people who buy these items to give them a "leg-up" on the competition are greedy just as well. They are greedy to be number 1, even if it costs them 100$ a month. They are greedy, greedy enough to buy these items and ruin the game for everyone else, just so they can say... "You mad bro?" or.... "Hah your a noob". The 17% in the survey who want items to allow them a greater advantage over others are greedy, selfish, and ruin the experience for the rest of us.
Greed sickens me, it is one of the worst things in the world and the cause of so much turmoil and hate.
This talk of greed is making me hate, hate these greedy bastards that populate our world.
I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.
Exactly, that's what I'm trying to say. For example, you don't need to lie and swindle your customers to make money, much like Best Buy does selling computers. Newegg makes PLENTY of business and doesn't need to sell awful, overpriced computers to do it.
Greed is a two way street though, it's not only companies who can be greedy over this situation. As someone said above you can look at this as much as people not wanting to pay for their entertainment, and expect it as a charity. If you don't like the F2P model, stick to the games that don't have it, it's really as simple as that. Don't expect a 100% free online service. You're going to pay at some point, or someone else is.
Look at a game like BF2 p4f, I can either pay a few bucks to get a gun to use as long as I want, and never pay again.
-OR-
Get slightly decressed fire power, that for a decent fps vet like myself really gives me no disadvantage at all, by simply playing the game, the better I do the more free stuff I earn. I'm not going to damn the company for adding enticements to make sales though. I feel no disadvantage nor do my scores by using what is free.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Business and creativity have never been exclusive except in the minds of the naive. As I said, some of the most enduring art in history was done strictly for cash or to satisfy an investor/patron.
Again-- you're conflating the business plans that a game studio uses to pay their bills and the creative process they go through to make a game. They're not mutually exclusive, and in fact need each other to survive.
As for Pay2Win, or whatever the hell people call it, did you notice the PowerPoint presentation at the beginning of this thread? Most of the users that EA has pay no attention to the message boards, and of those that DO pay attention and do post the most, the active forum users spend MORE than the majority casual who don't go online to post or complain or ragequit about microtransactions. A bit strange, don't you think? If you're correct and microtransactions effectively reduce your revenue by making people get pissed off and leave a game forever, then why are the most active forum users and most active gamers the ones who spend 10x as much money as the more casual fans?
EA knows how to make money.
Turbine is turning a pretty good profit.
People are prone to using hyperbole when they're faced with the inevitable change they fear. That's all C16 was on about.
On the same scale, how greedy is it to expect any semblance of a high-quality game and whatever X number of hours of entertainment you may end up having with it for free?
It's just as greedy as the people who P2W. It's just as greedy as the people who run illegal, emulated servers. It's just as greedy as the people who pirate and bootleg movies, music, software and games.
But the people making those movies, music, software and games need to survive. They have living expenses. They have goals and ambitions to attain a quality of life for themselves.
And so we have 15 dollar in-theatre movies, dollar a song distribution, 20-30 dollar blu-rays, software ranging from shareware to 5000/license, and games running the gambit of costs, from B2P, P2P and F2P. Something for everyone.
Hell, even the indies are in it for the profit. You don't see Notch shifting Minecraft F2P once he hits his yearly expected earnings need. Nope, he keeps profiting. Hell, he mentioned renting a private jet for E3, and made jokes about paying Cliffy.B's taxi fare.
No... but Mojang and Minecraft and Notch are indie-darlings.. they couldn't be greedy...
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
They are the casual fans. Anyone who prefers quick, easy satisfaction handed to them on a silver platter is a casual. Real gamers are those who treat their games as a hobby and like to work hard towards their goals due to the stronger sense of reward and achievement that follows.
All this greedy shit does is degrade the hell out of your game and drive away your real loyal fanbase (you know, the people you owe your initial success to).
In fact, I'd argue that it was player greed that first drove the trend towards F2P and microtransactions in the first place.
Gold farmers, XP powerleveling services, etc. would never have taken off and never become an issue at all if players actually wanted to play these games without an advantage. Enough players started using those services that the MMO companies noticed. Why not just cut out the middleman and offer the services directly to the player? They're going to do it anyway, and always have, ever since EQ1 and UO were the dominant games on the market.
F2P and cash shops and Freemium models didn't just appear out of the blue. They were a long time coming. Developers didn't just wake up one morning and decide to go in this direction. Players had a hand in leading them there because of their actions too. It's exactly that two way street you're talking about.
As a musician I have to laugh at this. Not to be a prick or anything, but if the gaming world is anything like mine, it's not about us or the fans, it's about the scene}--for lack of a better term--{. Industry is to commercial for my musical taste.
Gamers are about the medium, not about dev teams. Real gamers want to support the medium, not tear it down. Just as Dev teams are in it to support the medium, and have no wish of tearing it down, they want to expand it to a wider audience.
You're mistaking purist hipsters for true fans.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
bump......................
The ones spending money are the casual fans? Are you serious? LOL.
Casual fans buy a game, play it, finish it or get bored, then move on with their lives. They don't pour extra cash into a game if they don't have to. It's the hardcore and the more dedicated gamers that will go that far. It's the dedicated Halo fanboy who downloads all the map packs and DLC. It's the dedicated Sims fan who buys the costume packs and furniture and hairstyles online from the EA store. It's the dedicated player who pours a lot of money into the game, not the casual fan.
This trail of conversation has a purpose.
It's to show that the labels for "hardcore" "dedicated" and "casual" gamers has little to do with the size of their bank accounts.
I think fans are willing to invest both time and money in to something that they enjoy. Everything in F2P and even "buy to win" is OPTIONAL. No one is being forced to buy anything.
Can that argument be made for the subscription model? If you don't pay 14.99 a month, you don't have access to the content on the BOX that you already paid for. Talk about a panzi scheme!