I'm-a backup Meowhead here and point out that this has been true of every PC or console RPG that allows swimming since the dawn of time. It's either a matter of preventing one from going into the watter, or allowing one to swim uninhibited, which simply obeys the Rule of Fun. In a game, the Rule of Fun should be obeyed over all other rules, since it is a game. This isn't always true, but in the games I've enjoyed the most, it's always been true.
If you look at games like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Fallout 3, you can see that swimming occurs without inhibition. You can add mods to change that, yes, but the vanilla game just lets anyone swim however. There are things I enjoy modding about Bethesda games, but uninhibited swimming isn't something that I'd change. So why should ArenaNet change this for their MMORPG, for what would ultimately be a bad design decision that would contradict the Rule of Fun.
Need a reason? Simple: Tyria isn't built upon the same elemental compositions as our world is, and obeys entirely different physical laws which only in some cases obey our own. But it's foolhardy to think that just because one aspect of Tyria acts similarly to our world, that then all aspects of Tyria must obey the physical laws of our world. That displays limited thinking and a lack of creative thought. Tyria may just share some of the physical laws of our world, it does not need to share all of the physical laws of our world.
And thus, with it being a fantasy world, the developers can make up the physical laws of that world as they go along and no one, no one, would be in any position to contradict them, unless they've spent a few hundred years in that world observing its physical sciences and learning about how they work. But by that point you'd just realise what the developers already knew, anyway, and that's that Tyria doesn't behave the same way that earth does. It does not have to. There is no written rule that says it needs to.
In fact, the written rules of design, obeying the Rule of Fun, dictate that a world is better when it doesn't 100% try to mimic our own, and usually the further away it goes from earth default, the more entertaining it's likely to be. People play games for escapism. The last thing that the majority would want is to play a game that mimics our world exactly. If that's going to happen then why on earth play a game at all? Go take a swim in the ocean and forget about Guild Wars 2.
[...] Just like letting people in plate mail swim along with the people in normal clothes, this is done for the sake of the game, sacrificing realism on the altar of gameplay.
To me, they're sacrificing immersion on the alter of convenience. It may not mean a lot to you, but it sure means a lot to me. I can almost guarantee I won't enjoy the underwater content because of these immersion breaking inconsistensies (swim speed, wearing heavy armor underwater and the breathing apparatus, which in my opinion is a lame excuse for endless breath) but obviously that won't stop me from playing the game. It still looks good.
My opinion of course.
I would expect you'll find your opinion adjusting once you get hands-on time with the game and experience that realism is not a requirement for immersion. Actually, quite often it's the boundaries of realism that break the immersion of a fantasy world.
Hopefully, ArenaNet won't fit helicopters and computers within the boundaries of lore too.
I hate to break it to you but there has already been concept art of helicopters, and ArenaNet said in one video that they don't like discarding concept art, instead of saying "No, that does not work in our world.", they ask "How can we use that?" Considering that daniel Dociu has a concept art piece named 'charr chopper,' it's most likely that helicopters will make their way into the game given that work ethic.
If you can't deal with a game being creaitve, then perhaps a less creative game would suit you better. Perhaps Mortal Online or Darkfall?
"underwater combat" should never be in a game where you play a human (or a race of the same stature.) unless your going to give everyone flippers and a harpoon gun there is no possible way one could fight another underwater swinging a sword wildly. Straight up stupid and unoriginal, will be just as lame as wows underwater combat
Except that's exactly what they did, they gave everyone a harpoon gun, and a spear. Swords aren't allowed underwater.
"underwater combat" should never be in a game where you play a human (or a race of the same stature.) unless your going to give everyone flippers and a harpoon gun there is no possible way one could fight another underwater swinging a sword wildly. Straight up stupid and unoriginal, will be just as lame as wows underwater combat
Except that's exactly what they did, they gave everyone a harpoon gun, and a spear. Swords aren't allowed underwater.
Don't forget the Trident, you really wouldn't want Poseidon to get upset would you? =P
... and the breathing apparatus seems like a good idea to me, if they are capable of making it within the boundaries of lore, then why would it be immersion breaking?
An underwater breathing apparatus is a pretty advanced piece of technology. According to Wikipedia, the first free-swimming air scuba set was invented in 1925. In comparison, the first motorcycle was invented in 1885 and the first controlled flight took place in 1903. Guns, grenades and flamethrowers are, of course, much older inventions.
Hopefully, ArenaNet won't fit helicopters and computers within the boundaries of lore too.
Thats just it though, its such a cheesy way of making something work by just tacking it on.
I mean really, a breathing apparatus works within the boundaries of lore, but I bet you so would a flying apparatus or an interdimensional apparatus, all of which could just as easily expand the gameplay to other parts of the world.
It reminds me of that scene in Thank You for Smoking:
Jeff Megall: Sony has a futuristic sci-fi movie they're looking to make.
Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'
It reminds me of that scene in Thank You for Smoking:
Jeff Megall: Sony has a futuristic sci-fi movie they're looking to make.
Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'
Lol, this isn't as outragous as you belive.
When Winston Churchill were to fly to the US for a meeting with the prez during WW2 he refused to fly until they made and oxygen mask that allowed him to smoke his cigarrs while having it on.
He said he couldn't survive that many hours without his beloved Romeo Y julietta so he got his mask and it worked fine.
When someone in the position of power want something they usually get it, stupid or not.
A vaporizer system for the ciggarette would work excellent and that is technology that works now. The problem is more that it is unlikely that future astronauts actually would smoke.
This scuba gear is a copy made from Hans Tallhoffers drawing in 1459, and old Hans was not like DaVinci, his stuff worked and were actually used.
Of course you pump air here, but I can promise you that if some kind of magic really would have existed they would have made a breathing apparatus as well.
Hans also talks about using a pigs bladder full of air to breathe.
If you want to dizz something for really being off, then let's talk about the sentry guns, those appeared in the 60s.
The key word here is "free-swimming". Scuba gear has been around for half a millenia as you stated, but it took another 500 years to actually make it work like it does in Guild Wars 2. Yes, that's how advanced the free-swimming air scuba set is. It's not a medieval piece of technology at all, it belongs to the modern era.
And don't assume I think the sentry towers are fine. I hate them as much as I hate the idea of a breathing apparatus. None of them are gamebreaking for me though.
Originally posted by Loke666
Please inform us which MMO that does underwater combat better or as good. Heck, many newer MMOs don't even have mobs underwater, like AoC and RoM, it is all empty in the water in those games.
I pretty much hate underwater content in all the MMOs I've tried - and for the same reasons. Does that make Guild Wars 2 underwater content better or worse? No, it doesn't. In fact, it's totally irrelevant what other games have done in the past.
This scuba gear is a copy made from Hans Tallhoffers drawing in 1459, and old Hans was not like DaVinci, his stuff worked and were actually used.
Of course you pump air here, but I can promise you that if some kind of magic really would have existed they would have made a breathing apparatus as well.
Hans also talks about using a pigs bladder full of air to breathe.
If you want to dizz something for really being off, then let's talk about the sentry guns, those appeared in the 60s.
The key word here is "free-swimming". Scuba gear has been around for half a millenia as you stated, but it took another 500 years to actually make it work like it does in Guild Wars 2. Yes, that's how advanced the free-swimming air scuba set is. It's not a medieval piece of technology at all, it belongs to the modern era.
And don't assume I think the sentry towers are fine. I hate them as much as I hate the idea of a breathing apparatus. None of them are gamebreaking for me though.
I pretty much hate underwater content in all the MMOs I've tried - and for the same reasons. Does that make Guild Wars 2 underwater content better or worse? No, it doesn't. In fact, it's totally irrelevant what other games have done in the past.
As I said, there were people using an air filled pigs bladder to be able to stay down a while. Compared to teleporting, sentry guns and flying ships does this really not seems like stretching things too far.
I am just curios why this thing upsets you so while the other things seems OK, they are far more outragous.
The sentry gun actually annoys me, I have to admit that. It is a lot further against the lore and technology than anything else in the game including anything under water. The jet plane is a older idea than the sentry gun FFS.
It annoys me so much that I wont play a engineer... Still, you can't expect to like everything about a game.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
<Sigh>
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
"What is different is that your movement speed is affected, the enemies are different, weapon aesthetics change (i.e. a sword becomes a spear) and fire balls don’t work. Despite my limited exposure to MMOs, I’ve played enough to know it was horrible in WoW and that it’s not so here. "
There you go, movement speed is affect too.
Movement is UNAFFECTED.
That was slip on the writers side. Same as he mixed Norn with human.
Movement is unaffected, then again why should it be, its fantasy mmo with dragons made out of magic ;p
If it makes the game more fun i don't mind. I have slower movement in water IRL.
I hated water magic in gw1 because it does nothing but reduce your movement speed. It's frustrating. I love the idea of unaffected movement underwater.
Thats just it though, its such a cheesy way of making something work by just tacking it on.
I mean really, a breathing apparatus works within the boundaries of lore, but I bet you so would a flying apparatus or an interdimensional apparatus, all of which could just as easily expand the gameplay to other parts of the world.
They most certainly do have interdimensional travel (WvW).
... and they do have flying actually, just not personal flying. Dunno what to tell you here.
I hope to god you bitch like hell (or at least say 'THis is so cheesy' ) about the lack of exhaustive swimming ,jetpack and personal spaceship exploration content in SW:ToR (All of them using 100% canonical devices), or all I see here is hypocrisy, by the way. It's a game. I don't expect SW:ToR to have any of that because they focused in certain areas.
Why is GW2 being held by you to standards I wouldn't think of holding SW:ToR to? At least I'm internally consistent in my 'Oh hey, I noticed they're developing a game, and people do things in games as the developers feel are appropriate' stance.
Originally posted by Alot
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Well, it's really about as safe as rezzing yourself by killing a monster. If there's no other monsters, you're good to go. If the monsters are really hurt and you real quick heal yourself with a recharged heal skill, then fight on and win... good to go.
Otherwise, you're perfectly capable of dying. This is why playing with a friend comes in handy, they can fend off the monsters while you do whatever it is you need to do to recover sufficiently.
Also, swimming to the surface has the problem that if Arenanet wants, they can put the REALLY awesome content far enough underwater that there's this horrible danger zone of 'Oh crap, to get here I swam too far/went too deep, if I die here I'm in a lot of trouble.' that people must venture into.
(edit: in response to other people, a note about the technology that the Charr use. It's clockpunk technology. In other words, it's only loosely based on real technology. Just like any other form of fantasy... like steampunk, they're doing fantastical things with their technology. Not sure if you noticed, but putting several hundred extra gears in a mannequin? Does not actually make an android capable of mimicking human behavior. You cannot actually power giant robots off of steam. All this stuff is fantasy technology, not 'real world' technology. Yeah, it holds a sort of loose analogue, so I can see how you'd be confused, but keep in mind what the Charr is doing is fantasy, just as much as the guys throwing fireballs.
Yes, they are doing some amazingly advanced things. Why aren't they as advanced in all ways? Because the law of fantasy style technology like steampunk and clockpunk is =It happens because the writers thought it was cool=. Sorry to make you sad to know that. )
Thats just it though, its such a cheesy way of making something work by just tacking it on.
I mean really, a breathing apparatus works within the boundaries of lore, but I bet you so would a flying apparatus or an interdimensional apparatus, all of which could just as easily expand the gameplay to other parts of the world.
They most certainly do have interdimensional travel (WvW).
... and they do have flying actually, just not personal flying. Dunno what to tell you here.
I hope to god you bitch like hell (or at least say 'THis is so cheesy' ) about the lack of exhaustive swimming ,jetpack and personal spaceship exploration content in SW:ToR (All of them using 100% canonical devices), or all I see here is hypocrisy, by the way. It's a game. I don't expect SW:ToR to have any of that because they focused in certain areas.
Why is GW2 being held by you to standards I wouldn't think of holding SW:ToR to? At least I'm internally consistent in my 'Oh hey, I noticed they're developing a game, and people do things in games as the developers feel are appropriate' stance.
I agree that I should be able to jetpack anywhere if I have a jetpack in SWTOR. HOWEVER, they don't have substantial content in areas that require jetpacking, force jumping, or checking of garbage mashers on detention levels. They don't have ANY content that requires it, so I don't feel that its a kind of forced upon me to expect this. In fact, jet packs are only used by 1 class AFAIK in SWTOR, and while I also think the TROOPER should have a jetpack too, at this point trying to decipher a purpose wouldn't make sense as there isn't a necessity for it.
I have my own qualms with SWTOR, and I have no problems expressing them. The difference however, is underwater content is a very large part of the game, and it was created as a large part.... well.... who knows why. They needed something with a Z axis and flying was played out? I just find it a very odd way to choose content and create lore where they could have used plenty of other avenues with the same results, without the need for strange obscure things like "underwater pets" "breathing apparatuses" and various underwater abilities, which are cool, in a very topical manner, but they don't hold a very lasting sway to me.
I love sea exploration and sharks and I love to go fishing in RL and all that, but I just don't see the need for temporary pets when you're in water (can you use land animals in water? Does my moa bird get a breathing apparatus?), or the addition of an item that everyone has to allow you to breathe underwater, or the negation of some sort of movement differentiation to connote that you are even in water.
It was their design decision, while there are some of GW2 I like, this is one I just happen to not.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Isn't the drowned state just 100% more forgiving than the downed state?
If you're solo on land and you go downed, you need to kill the mob or you're defeated.
If you're solo underwater and you go drowned, you could kill the mob or get to the surface or you're defeated.
If you're with a friend in either case, they could kill the mob or rez you in addition to those options.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Isn't the drowned state just 100% more forgiving than the downed state?
If you're solo on land and you go downed, you need to kill the mob or you're defeated.
If you're solo underwater and you go drowned, you could kill the mob or get to the surface or you're defeated.
If you're with a friend in either case, they could kill the mob or rez you in addition to those options.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
In downed state you may have to kill a mob to get back up, but if you escape downed state in this way, you are probably out of danger. In case of the drowned state you have to get to the surface to go into your normal state, and once you have reached the surface you can't use any skills. And while you were swimming to the surface, you were still being attacked by the mob that downed you, and since you didn't bother to defeat him since it wouldn't get you out of drowned state he will send you back to drowned state near instantly.
I have my own qualms with SWTOR, and I have no problems expressing them.
You must have extremely few qualms, perhaps A qualm, given your posting history. Perhaps you are expressing your qualms about SWTOR elsewhere, while expressing your qualms about GW2 here?
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but to say you have your qualms with SWTOR when you clearly HIGHLY prefer the design desicions made for SWTOR, makes all your qualms about GW2 just a tad less constructive. Why? Because obviously most of the ways GW2 could be improved in your eyes would be for its design decisions to more greatly resemble SWTOR.
I agree that I should be able to jetpack anywhere if I have a jetpack in SWTOR. HOWEVER, they don't have substantial content in areas that require jetpacking, force jumping, or checking of garbage mashers on detention levels. They don't have ANY content that requires it, so I don't feel that its a kind of forced upon me to expect this. In fact, jet packs are only used by 1 class AFAIK in SWTOR, and while I also think the TROOPER should have a jetpack too, at this point trying to decipher a purpose wouldn't make sense as there isn't a necessity for it.
The part in red makes me ask, again... why should GW2 have personal flying apparatus when they don't have substantial content in area that requires it?
I have my own qualms with SWTOR, and I have no problems expressing them. The difference however, is underwater content is a very large part of the game, and it was created as a large part.... well.... who knows why. They needed something with a Z axis and flying was played out?
Actually, content in the air would require making up a whole lot of... uh... air.... stuff. It would be strange. You might not realize this, but there is a LOT of interesting things underwater in the real world as well. Grab scuba gear, and you can explore and see all sorts of things. Put on a jetpack and... you're in the air. Congratulations. Flying through the air is just a way to get from one piece of the ground to another. The atmosphere is not really any sort of meaningful environment, and would in fact require a LOT of invention to bother making it a meaningful gameplay environment.
Underwater on the other hand has a long RL history of being interesting. It really is a seperate environment from being on the ground. Fish do fish things. There's a floor. There's things in there. There's treasure. Nobody finds a sunken pirate ship in the middle of the air. Even BIRDS just use the air as a method of getting from one patch of ground to the other. Even bird nests are basically built on the ground. Why am I even explaining this? THis should actually be pretty self evident why underwater is more meaningful than air stuff.
I love sea exploration and sharks and I love to go fishing in RL and all that, but I just don't see the need for temporary pets when you're in water (can you use land animals in water? Does my moa bird get a breathing apparatus?), or the addition of an item that everyone has to allow you to breathe underwater, or the negation of some sort of movement differentiation to connote that you are even in water.
Some pets are underwater only, some are amphibious. So some land animals work underwater, yes. People get breathing apparatus because they wanted to deliver underwater content in a way where 'breathing' wasn't your main concern. People move normal speed because moving slower generally sucks, and they wanted to encourage, not discourage people from going underwater. I think you'd find that in most MMORPGs, if there's a whole zone dedicated to 'moving slower', people will be less likely to visit it. Especially if you decide to make that area just as expansive and full of content as a normal zone.
(edit: On a side note, I think if you asked people about why they scuba dive, free dive, go in bathyspheres or any other method to explore underwater, you'd be HARD PRESSED to find somebody who states as their reasons 'I like going underwater because I can't move as quickly and I have to surface to breathe'. That is not actually the fun part of going underwater in real life. That is the downside. If people could swim freely and openly underwater without breath concerns, we'd be doing a lot more finding awesome pirate treasure and goggling at interesting underwater flora and fauna. I'm just saying.
It was their design decision, while there are some of GW2 I like, this is one I just happen to not.
I can understand you disagreeing with a design decision, the part that makes me go 'bwuh?' is the part where you can't say you see why they're doing it. It's pretty obvious WHY they're donig it. (The answer of course being 'Because they like making you cry at night')
Okay...so to everyone who is complaining about the lack of "immersion" in GW2's underwater play due to breathing apparati and faster swim speed, here is my challenge to you.
Name one, just ONE reasonably successful MMORPG (no indie games with 200 players) that has a more realistic and immersive underwater experience than GW2 is going to have.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Isn't the drowned state just 100% more forgiving than the downed state?
If you're solo on land and you go downed, you need to kill the mob or you're defeated.
If you're solo underwater and you go drowned, you could kill the mob or get to the surface or you're defeated.
If you're with a friend in either case, they could kill the mob or rez you in addition to those options.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
In downed state you may have to kill a mob to get back up, but if you escape downed state in this way, you are probably out of danger. In case of the drowned state you have to get to the surface to go into your normal state, and once you have reached the surface you can't use any skills. And while you were swimming to the surface, you were still being attacked by the mob that downed you, and since you didn't bother to defeat him since it wouldn't get you out of drowned state he will send you back to drowned state near instantly.
But in the drowned state, you still have the option to kill the guy, you aren't forced to go to the surface. From the wiki
Drowning State
When a character's health is depleted, the character enters a drowning state that functions similarly to the downed state seen in land combat. While drowning, players will have access to four drowning skills that can be used in an attempt to rally. However, in addition to the options of killing a foe or being revived by an ally, players may recover by swimming to the surface and achieving full drowning health at which a character re-enters a normal state with 25% health.
This part of the wiki is unattributed, but this is the exact impression I got from the video.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Off the top of my head I can think of a very simple reason why there is so much underwater content; as a means of greatly increasing the world size available to players without opening up Cantha and Elona, since the land mass of Tryia is well-established. Of couse, this may or may not have been ANet's actual reasoning, but either way, there is also a lore explanation in that a great deal of the world was flooded when one of the Elder Dragons awoke - see also why Lion's Arch is made of boats.
Chicken? Egg? Who knows. But there's your lore reason.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic .
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Isn't the drowned state just 100% more forgiving than the downed state?
If you're solo on land and you go downed, you need to kill the mob or you're defeated.
If you're solo underwater and you go drowned, you could kill the mob or get to the surface or you're defeated.
If you're with a friend in either case, they could kill the mob or rez you in addition to those options.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
In downed state you may have to kill a mob to get back up, but if you escape downed state in this way, you are probably out of danger. In case of the drowned state you have to get to the surface to go into your normal state, and once you have reached the surface you can't use any skills. And while you were swimming to the surface, you were still being attacked by the mob that downed you, and since you didn't bother to defeat him since it wouldn't get you out of drowned state he will send you back to drowned state near instantly.
But in the drowned state, you still have the option to kill the guy, you aren't forced to go to the surface. From the wiki
Drowning State
When a character's health is depleted, the character enters a drowning state that functions similarly to the downed state seen in land combat. While drowning, players will have access to four drowning skills that can be used in an attempt to rally. However, in addition to the options of killing a foe or being revived by an ally, players may recover by swimming to the surface and achieving full drowning health at which a character re-enters a normal state with 25% health.
This part of the wiki is unattributed, but this is the exact impression I got from the video.
I agree that I should be able to jetpack anywhere if I have a jetpack in SWTOR. HOWEVER, they don't have substantial content in areas that require jetpacking, force jumping, or checking of garbage mashers on detention levels. They don't have ANY content that requires it, so I don't feel that its a kind of forced upon me to expect this. In fact, jet packs are only used by 1 class AFAIK in SWTOR, and while I also think the TROOPER should have a jetpack too, at this point trying to decipher a purpose wouldn't make sense as there isn't a necessity for it.
The part in red makes me ask, again... why should GW2 have personal flying apparatus when they don't have substantial content in area that requires it?
Thats just the point though, THEY got to choose. They could have added huge mountains with caves that requires flight to get to, or areas that required some type of platforming to navigate vertically, or any number of different ways to integrate a different style of gameplay. They CHOSE underwater content which is fine... I like being underwater.... but to substantiate this they then added water pets, breathing apparatuses, removal of movement penalties without the use of an "underwater movement apparatus" I mean, its just kind of a silly thing to see from my perspective.
I'm not against underwater content, I just think how it was implemented is very hokey. Its a game, I understand, I just don't find this particular decision to be that great.
I have my own qualms with SWTOR, and I have no problems expressing them. The difference however, is underwater content is a very large part of the game, and it was created as a large part.... well.... who knows why. They needed something with a Z axis and flying was played out?
Actually, content in the air would require making up a whole lot of... uh... air.... stuff. It would be strange. You might not realize this, but there is a LOT of interesting things underwater in the real world as well. Grab scuba gear, and you can explore and see all sorts of things. Put on a jetpack and... you're in the air. Congratulations. Flying through the air is just a way to get from one piece of the ground to another. The atmosphere is not really any sort of meaningful environment, and would in fact require a LOT of invention to bother making it a meaningful gameplay environment.
Underwater on the other hand has a long RL history of being interesting. It really is a seperate environment from being on the ground. Fish do fish things. There's a floor. There's things in there. There's treasure. Nobody finds a sunken pirate ship in the middle of the air. Even BIRDS just use the air as a method of getting from one patch of ground to the other. Even bird nests are basically built on the ground. Why am I even explaining this? THis should actually be pretty self evident why underwater is more meaningful than air stuff.
But its more meaningful BECAUSE of the challenges associated with being underwater. You run out of breath, you have depth pressure, you have a movement penalty and time restraints. In GW2 you have none of that unless you "die" where then you just have to make it to the surface or someone can rez you or what have you. Theres nothing particularly exciting or dangerous about finding a treasure chest in an underwater cave after you've been swimming around underwater for 2 hours. Just my perception of it, maybe someone else finds underwater exploration AWESOME when they have unlimited time under water... I just don't see it.
I love sea exploration and sharks and I love to go fishing in RL and all that, but I just don't see the need for temporary pets when you're in water (can you use land animals in water? Does my moa bird get a breathing apparatus?), or the addition of an item that everyone has to allow you to breathe underwater, or the negation of some sort of movement differentiation to connote that you are even in water.
Some pets are underwater only, some are amphibious. So some land animals work underwater, yes. People get breathing apparatus because they wanted to deliver underwater content in a way where 'breathing' wasn't your main concern. People move normal speed because moving slower generally sucks, and they wanted to encourage, not discourage people from going underwater. I think you'd find that in most MMORPGs, if there's a whole zone dedicated to 'moving slower', people will be less likely to visit it. Especially if you decide to make that area just as expansive and full of content as a normal zone.
(edit: On a side note, I think if you asked people about why they scuba dive, free dive, go in bathyspheres or any other method to explore underwater, you'd be HARD PRESSED to find somebody who states as their reasons 'I like going underwater because I can't move as quickly and I have to surface to breathe'. That is not actually the fun part of going underwater in real life. That is the downside. If people could swim freely and openly underwater without breath concerns, we'd be doing a lot more finding awesome pirate treasure and goggling at interesting underwater flora and fauna. I'm just saying.
It was their design decision, while there are some of GW2 I like, this is one I just happen to not.
I can understand you disagreeing with a design decision, the part that makes me go 'bwuh?' is the part where you can't say you see why they're doing it. It's pretty obvious WHY they're donig it. (The answer of course being 'Because they like making you cry at night')
I never said I DIDN'T necessarily see why they were doing it, they're doing it because they want to, for no other reason, actually. They didn't have a ton of underwater content created and then say, "Well we made all this underwater content.... we should probably throw something in there so people can experience it."
That would be like a chef *accidentally* made a squid and lemon juice soup and then said "Well we should just stick that on the menu cause we made it". Obviously they set out to make this content, they went this route instead of making flying content, (I don't care who you are, floating islands are awesome) or underground content ( I like tunnels and caverns, and a "flashlight" apparatus would likely be easier to create), or even more challenging underwater content with all the major pitfalls of underwater content as playing a part.
I'm not saying it won't be fun, or won't add something to the game, I'm just saying.... its hokey, There isn't any reason why, before in GW1 you couldn't do anything in water, but now everybody is so jazzed about underwater exploration that they carry a breathing apparatus with them. It just doesn't feel like it was a big part before.... it feels like it was just thrown in there with these other features and it really doesn't add anything to the gameplay, nor does it really take much away. Its just "something else" .... "just because". Again... MY opinion.
I'm not against underwater content, I just think how it was implemented is very hokey. Its a game, I understand, I just don't find this particular decision to be that great.
Its just "something else" .... "just because". Again... MY opinion.
... man, I tried to trim that down, and I ended up totally butchering your post.
Oh well. Just wanted to say that...
... you do realize that for a significant amount of people, they find underwater content to be horrible and some of the worst part of games, precisely for the reasons you like it, right?
This is one of the first times a game has catered to all those people complaining how much moving slow and drowning all the time sucks in underwater content.
I guess we'll find out if it was a good gamble on Arenanet's part, and if their bet that more people are like me than you will allow them to maintain a lifestyle of rolling around in giant piles of money.
(You don't have to keep saying things are your opinion, by the way! I'm fully aware of that. )
Comments
I'm-a backup Meowhead here and point out that this has been true of every PC or console RPG that allows swimming since the dawn of time. It's either a matter of preventing one from going into the watter, or allowing one to swim uninhibited, which simply obeys the Rule of Fun. In a game, the Rule of Fun should be obeyed over all other rules, since it is a game. This isn't always true, but in the games I've enjoyed the most, it's always been true.
If you look at games like Morrowind, Oblivion, or Fallout 3, you can see that swimming occurs without inhibition. You can add mods to change that, yes, but the vanilla game just lets anyone swim however. There are things I enjoy modding about Bethesda games, but uninhibited swimming isn't something that I'd change. So why should ArenaNet change this for their MMORPG, for what would ultimately be a bad design decision that would contradict the Rule of Fun.
Need a reason? Simple: Tyria isn't built upon the same elemental compositions as our world is, and obeys entirely different physical laws which only in some cases obey our own. But it's foolhardy to think that just because one aspect of Tyria acts similarly to our world, that then all aspects of Tyria must obey the physical laws of our world. That displays limited thinking and a lack of creative thought. Tyria may just share some of the physical laws of our world, it does not need to share all of the physical laws of our world.
And thus, with it being a fantasy world, the developers can make up the physical laws of that world as they go along and no one, no one, would be in any position to contradict them, unless they've spent a few hundred years in that world observing its physical sciences and learning about how they work. But by that point you'd just realise what the developers already knew, anyway, and that's that Tyria doesn't behave the same way that earth does. It does not have to. There is no written rule that says it needs to.
In fact, the written rules of design, obeying the Rule of Fun, dictate that a world is better when it doesn't 100% try to mimic our own, and usually the further away it goes from earth default, the more entertaining it's likely to be. People play games for escapism. The last thing that the majority would want is to play a game that mimics our world exactly. If that's going to happen then why on earth play a game at all? Go take a swim in the ocean and forget about Guild Wars 2.
I would expect you'll find your opinion adjusting once you get hands-on time with the game and experience that realism is not a requirement for immersion. Actually, quite often it's the boundaries of realism that break the immersion of a fantasy world.
I hate to break it to you but there has already been concept art of helicopters, and ArenaNet said in one video that they don't like discarding concept art, instead of saying "No, that does not work in our world.", they ask "How can we use that?" Considering that daniel Dociu has a concept art piece named 'charr chopper,' it's most likely that helicopters will make their way into the game given that work ethic.
If you can't deal with a game being creaitve, then perhaps a less creative game would suit you better. Perhaps Mortal Online or Darkfall?
(And damn, Loke666 beat me to the harpoons.)
Except that's exactly what they did, they gave everyone a harpoon gun, and a spear. Swords aren't allowed underwater.
Don't forget the Trident, you really wouldn't want Poseidon to get upset would you? =P
Thats just it though, its such a cheesy way of making something work by just tacking it on.
I mean really, a breathing apparatus works within the boundaries of lore, but I bet you so would a flying apparatus or an interdimensional apparatus, all of which could just as easily expand the gameplay to other parts of the world.
It reminds me of that scene in Thank You for Smoking:
Jeff Megall: Sony has a futuristic sci-fi movie they're looking to make.
Nick Naylor: Cigarettes in space?
Jeff Megall: It's the final frontier, Nick.
Nick Naylor: But wouldn't they blow up in an all oxygen environment?
Jeff Megall: Probably. But it's an easy fix. One line of dialogue. 'Thank God we invented the... you know, whatever device.'
Lol, this isn't as outragous as you belive.
When Winston Churchill were to fly to the US for a meeting with the prez during WW2 he refused to fly until they made and oxygen mask that allowed him to smoke his cigarrs while having it on.
He said he couldn't survive that many hours without his beloved Romeo Y julietta so he got his mask and it worked fine.
When someone in the position of power want something they usually get it, stupid or not.
A vaporizer system for the ciggarette would work excellent and that is technology that works now. The problem is more that it is unlikely that future astronauts actually would smoke.
The key word here is "free-swimming". Scuba gear has been around for half a millenia as you stated, but it took another 500 years to actually make it work like it does in Guild Wars 2. Yes, that's how advanced the free-swimming air scuba set is. It's not a medieval piece of technology at all, it belongs to the modern era.
And don't assume I think the sentry towers are fine. I hate them as much as I hate the idea of a breathing apparatus. None of them are gamebreaking for me though.
I pretty much hate underwater content in all the MMOs I've tried - and for the same reasons. Does that make Guild Wars 2 underwater content better or worse? No, it doesn't. In fact, it's totally irrelevant what other games have done in the past.
As I said, there were people using an air filled pigs bladder to be able to stay down a while. Compared to teleporting, sentry guns and flying ships does this really not seems like stretching things too far.
I am just curios why this thing upsets you so while the other things seems OK, they are far more outragous.
The sentry gun actually annoys me, I have to admit that. It is a lot further against the lore and technology than anything else in the game including anything under water. The jet plane is a older idea than the sentry gun FFS.
It annoys me so much that I wont play a engineer... Still, you can't expect to like everything about a game.
I think it's funny how no one complained about flinging fireballs underwater, casting lighting bolts without electrocting themselves, swimming around in full plate without sinking, swinging big clubs under water and actually being effective...the list goes on. But god forbid you move a little faster in water, that's just too unrealistic
.
It's funny because ANet says: "Hey guys, in our game, all skills have underwater versions that are more realistic, your weapon changes to something that would actually be effective underwater, and you can swim as fast as you can run on land!"
And everyone says: "What you swim fast! What an unrealistic outrage!"
<Sigh>
Anyway...
The only thing that bothers me about underwater right now is I'm a little worried that the uderwater downed state may be just a bit too forgiving. If all you have to do is swim to the surface, it seems like you could just stay near the surface and avoid death. Though I'll have to actually play the game to see how it works.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
The underwater downed state is rather annoying actually, if you swim to the surface you are back to your normal state but you've still got low health, and as long as you are swimming along the surface you can't use any skills. And ofcourse, there's a good chance the thing that killed you is still following you. In my opinion it is rather broken, since it means instant death in most cases.
Movement is UNAFFECTED.
That was slip on the writers side. Same as he mixed Norn with human.
Movement is unaffected, then again why should it be, its fantasy mmo with dragons made out of magic ;p
If it makes the game more fun i don't mind. I have slower movement in water IRL.
I hated water magic in gw1 because it does nothing but reduce your movement speed. It's frustrating. I love the idea of unaffected movement underwater.
Guild Wars 2 Youtube Croatian Maniacs
My Guild Wars titles
They most certainly do have interdimensional travel (WvW).
... and they do have flying actually, just not personal flying. Dunno what to tell you here.
I hope to god you bitch like hell (or at least say 'THis is so cheesy' ) about the lack of exhaustive swimming ,jetpack and personal spaceship exploration content in SW:ToR (All of them using 100% canonical devices), or all I see here is hypocrisy, by the way.
It's a game. I don't expect SW:ToR to have any of that because they focused in certain areas.
Why is GW2 being held by you to standards I wouldn't think of holding SW:ToR to? At least I'm internally consistent in my 'Oh hey, I noticed they're developing a game, and people do things in games as the developers feel are appropriate' stance.
Well, it's really about as safe as rezzing yourself by killing a monster. If there's no other monsters, you're good to go. If the monsters are really hurt and you real quick heal yourself with a recharged heal skill, then fight on and win... good to go.
Otherwise, you're perfectly capable of dying. This is why playing with a friend comes in handy, they can fend off the monsters while you do whatever it is you need to do to recover sufficiently.
Also, swimming to the surface has the problem that if Arenanet wants, they can put the REALLY awesome content far enough underwater that there's this horrible danger zone of 'Oh crap, to get here I swam too far/went too deep, if I die here I'm in a lot of trouble.' that people must venture into.
(edit: in response to other people, a note about the technology that the Charr use. It's clockpunk technology. In other words, it's only loosely based on real technology. Just like any other form of fantasy... like steampunk, they're doing fantastical things with their technology. Not sure if you noticed, but putting several hundred extra gears in a mannequin? Does not actually make an android capable of mimicking human behavior. You cannot actually power giant robots off of steam. All this stuff is fantasy technology, not 'real world' technology. Yeah, it holds a sort of loose analogue, so I can see how you'd be confused, but keep in mind what the Charr is doing is fantasy, just as much as the guys throwing fireballs.
Yes, they are doing some amazingly advanced things. Why aren't they as advanced in all ways? Because the law of fantasy style technology like steampunk and clockpunk is =It happens because the writers thought it was cool=. Sorry to make you sad to know that.
)
I agree that I should be able to jetpack anywhere if I have a jetpack in SWTOR. HOWEVER, they don't have substantial content in areas that require jetpacking, force jumping, or checking of garbage mashers on detention levels. They don't have ANY content that requires it, so I don't feel that its a kind of forced upon me to expect this. In fact, jet packs are only used by 1 class AFAIK in SWTOR, and while I also think the TROOPER should have a jetpack too, at this point trying to decipher a purpose wouldn't make sense as there isn't a necessity for it.
I have my own qualms with SWTOR, and I have no problems expressing them. The difference however, is underwater content is a very large part of the game, and it was created as a large part.... well.... who knows why. They needed something with a Z axis and flying was played out? I just find it a very odd way to choose content and create lore where they could have used plenty of other avenues with the same results, without the need for strange obscure things like "underwater pets" "breathing apparatuses" and various underwater abilities, which are cool, in a very topical manner, but they don't hold a very lasting sway to me.
I love sea exploration and sharks and I love to go fishing in RL and all that, but I just don't see the need for temporary pets when you're in water (can you use land animals in water? Does my moa bird get a breathing apparatus?), or the addition of an item that everyone has to allow you to breathe underwater, or the negation of some sort of movement differentiation to connote that you are even in water.
It was their design decision, while there are some of GW2 I like, this is one I just happen to not.
Isn't the drowned state just 100% more forgiving than the downed state?
If you're solo on land and you go downed, you need to kill the mob or you're defeated.
If you're solo underwater and you go drowned, you could kill the mob or get to the surface or you're defeated.
If you're with a friend in either case, they could kill the mob or rez you in addition to those options.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
In downed state you may have to kill a mob to get back up, but if you escape downed state in this way, you are probably out of danger. In case of the drowned state you have to get to the surface to go into your normal state, and once you have reached the surface you can't use any skills. And while you were swimming to the surface, you were still being attacked by the mob that downed you, and since you didn't bother to defeat him since it wouldn't get you out of drowned state he will send you back to drowned state near instantly.
You must have extremely few qualms, perhaps A qualm, given your posting history. Perhaps you are expressing your qualms about SWTOR elsewhere, while expressing your qualms about GW2 here?
Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but to say you have your qualms with SWTOR when you clearly HIGHLY prefer the design desicions made for SWTOR, makes all your qualms about GW2 just a tad less constructive. Why? Because obviously most of the ways GW2 could be improved in your eyes would be for its design decisions to more greatly resemble SWTOR.
Okay...so to everyone who is complaining about the lack of "immersion" in GW2's underwater play due to breathing apparati and faster swim speed, here is my challenge to you.
Name one, just ONE reasonably successful MMORPG (no indie games with 200 players) that has a more realistic and immersive underwater experience than GW2 is going to have.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
But in the drowned state, you still have the option to kill the guy, you aren't forced to go to the surface. From the wiki
Drowning State
When a character's health is depleted, the character enters a drowning state that functions similarly to the downed state seen in land combat. While drowning, players will have access to four drowning skills that can be used in an attempt to rally. However, in addition to the options of killing a foe or being revived by an ally, players may recover by swimming to the surface and achieving full drowning health at which a character re-enters a normal state with 25% health.
This part of the wiki is unattributed, but this is the exact impression I got from the video.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Off the top of my head I can think of a very simple reason why there is so much underwater content; as a means of greatly increasing the world size available to players without opening up Cantha and Elona, since the land mass of Tryia is well-established. Of couse, this may or may not have been ANet's actual reasoning, but either way, there is also a lore explanation in that a great deal of the world was flooded when one of the Elder Dragons awoke - see also why Lion's Arch is made of boats.
Chicken? Egg? Who knows. But there's your lore reason.
Okay, I see your point.
I never said I DIDN'T necessarily see why they were doing it, they're doing it because they want to, for no other reason, actually. They didn't have a ton of underwater content created and then say, "Well we made all this underwater content.... we should probably throw something in there so people can experience it."
That would be like a chef *accidentally* made a squid and lemon juice soup and then said "Well we should just stick that on the menu cause we made it". Obviously they set out to make this content, they went this route instead of making flying content, (I don't care who you are, floating islands are awesome) or underground content ( I like tunnels and caverns, and a "flashlight" apparatus would likely be easier to create), or even more challenging underwater content with all the major pitfalls of underwater content as playing a part.
I'm not saying it won't be fun, or won't add something to the game, I'm just saying.... its hokey, There isn't any reason why, before in GW1 you couldn't do anything in water, but now everybody is so jazzed about underwater exploration that they carry a breathing apparatus with them. It just doesn't feel like it was a big part before.... it feels like it was just thrown in there with these other features and it really doesn't add anything to the gameplay, nor does it really take much away. Its just "something else" .... "just because". Again... MY opinion.
... man, I tried to trim that down, and I ended up totally butchering your post.
Oh well. Just wanted to say that...
... you do realize that for a significant amount of people, they find underwater content to be horrible and some of the worst part of games, precisely for the reasons you like it, right?
This is one of the first times a game has catered to all those people complaining how much moving slow and drowning all the time sucks in underwater content.
I guess we'll find out if it was a good gamble on Arenanet's part, and if their bet that more people are like me than you will allow them to maintain a lifestyle of rolling around in giant piles of money.
(You don't have to keep saying things are your opinion, by the way! I'm fully aware of that.
)