The problem is your basing it off of a very vague marketing statement. We don't know precisely how this breaks down or even what it truly means. It could mean 100 hours between lightside and dark side, it could mean 200 hours for both. It may count some content that isn't entirely unique but only partially unique etc. Saying it's X times bigger than Rift etc is completely and totally worthless unless we get hard unbiased facts. And serves no purpose what so ever. You compare hardcore features ideally features you've seen in action, you don't compare vague clearly marketting influenced statements that you really have no idea about. Your taking something and running with it when you don't even know what your actually taking. You should take them as vague indicator, don't try to spin them infacts, to compare facts known about other games.
Of course it's all speculation and guesswork, that's what I said, several times in this thread even.
But marketing statement? That depends on whether you believe what devs say or not.
Based on the fact that they made some statements about hours several times by different people, and that they elaborated upon those statements in details several times as well, quite detailed too, makes me inclined to put more value to those words, not just some vague hype talk.
They stated they based the 'hundreds of hours' and '200 hours' gameplay on beta tester metrics, and that it's averages.
They also said that you'll start off with 60-70% of the content you do while leveling being Class Quest content, and then gradually it decreases until it's around 10% around level cap.
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
Those statements alone are already sufficient to make some rough but educated guesses regarding questing content.
Besides, we already know how large Rift is, and how large planets in SWTOR can be, so there's nothing biased there, those things can be compared and yes, normal planets in SWTOR simply are close in size to the world of Rift, so yes, with 13 normal planets the statement can be made that SWTOR is at least x times bigger than for example a Rift, no biased facts there.
You're the one insulting other people and making baseless claims which btw you have even less grounds to base your claims on than you accuse me of, because you can't handle reading positive things about SWTOR.
As for discussing this topic, I've seen a lot worse reasons for people creating threads and making baseless statements and speculations, with far, far less proof or info to make their claims on. So, if you're allergic to reading people comparing SWTOR with other MMO's and SWTOR looking good in comparison based on extrapolated estimates and educated guesses, I suggest you stay away from threads like this one and stick with threads about the game you're feeling all cuddly and hot for
Originally posted by cali59
I'm not here to bash SWTOR. I do think it's healthy to be a little skeptical though when a game, as someone said on page 3, could possibly be considered to have 60 single player RPGs worth of content.
Let's put things in perspective, shall we?
WoW vanilla had already enough questing/leveling content to be I suspect more than 30-35 single player RPG's long at least. I guess WoW CATA might have enough for 70-100+ singleplayer RPG's, with all the expansions and content updates included.
Thing is, you simply can't compare singleplayer games with MMORPG gameplay when it comes down to gameplay and doing quests, well, of course you can measure the number of hours, but the production process is different and the invested dev time per quest/mission in a singleplayer games is more than for a quest in MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm not here to bash SWTOR. I do think it's healthy to be a little skeptical though when a game, as someone said on page 3, could possibly be considered to have 60 single player RPGs worth of content.
Let's put things in perspective, shall we?
WoW vanilla had already enough questing/leveling content to be I suspect more than 30-35 single player RPG's long at least. I guess WoW CATA might have enough for 70-100+ singleplayer RPG's, with all the expansions and content updates included.
Thing is, you simply can't compare singleplayer games with MMORPG gameplay when it comes down to gameplay and doing quests, well, of course you can measure the number of hours, but the production process is different and the invested dev time per quest/mission in a singleplayer games is more than for a quest in MMO's.
Not trying to start an argument here, but first you estimate WoW's size using the comparison to single player games in order to put the size of SWTOR into perspective, then you turn right around and say you can't compare single player games with MMOs. (EDIT: I agree 100% that we shouldn't use the comparison, and I also concede that I started it.)
You also don't respond to the other part of my post which was that using hours to level is subject to wild variability and not at all a good way to measure either quality or quantity of content. The whole point of the post was in that 2nd paragraph. The lead-in size comparison was a justification, but I could have drawn the same conclusion without it. I'd say the same thing about GW2 as I would about TOR, it's wise to be a little skeptical about any game that hasn't been released.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
I find this statement to be interesting actually.
If you're doing the same quest 'lightside' and then doing it 'darkside'... it's still the same quest, yes?
Sure, the outcome will be different, but the basic setup will be the same. It'll be the same person giving you the mission. You'll have roughly the same goals. (Though you may go down the 'bad' or 'good' path) You'll be killing the same kinds of enemies. On the same maps, by and large (You may walk down a different corridor or something)
You cannot possibly get me to believe that Bioware programmed completely different enemies and locations for every single quest, depending upon whether it's lightside or darkside...
So taking the statement in red into account...
... how different is choosing a different class, exactly? Shouldn't they hasten to assure that playing as different classes is on a whole other level of difference, because not only is the outcome of quests different, but the quests themselves are wholly different as well? That was my understanding of how different the classes were...
Maybe the problem is they're just overselling the difference between light and dark side.
I actually never balked at the 'Bioware is doing a whole different set of quests for each class' thing before... they're Bioware, that sounds like something they'd do.
... but the idea that they do a whole different set of quests for each class.... TWICE? What? <.<
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
I find this statement to be interesting actually.
If you're doing the same quest 'lightside' and then doing it 'darkside'... it's still the same quest, yes?
Sure, the outcome will be different, but the basic setup will be the same. It'll be the same person giving you the mission. You'll have roughly the same goals. (Though you may go down the 'bad' or 'good' path) You'll be killing the same kinds of enemies. On the same maps, by and large (You may walk down a different corridor or something)
You cannot possibly get me to believe that Bioware programmed completely different enemies and locations for every single quest, depending upon whether it's lightside or darkside...
So taking the statement in red into account...
... how different is choosing a different class, exactly? Shouldn't they hasten to assure that playing as different classes is on a whole other level of difference, because not only is the outcome of quests different, but the quests themselves are wholly different as well? That was my understanding of how different the classes were...
Maybe the problem is they're just overselling the difference between light and dark side.
I actually never balked at the 'Bioware is doing a whole different set of quests for each class' thing before... they're Bioware, that sounds like something they'd do.
... but the idea that they do a whole different set of quests for each class.... TWICE? What? <.<
My personal opinion on this is that at least in the personal stories you'll start off with the same npc but it could change up from there. I don't expect two completely seperate quests and everything but i do expect them to change up some.
To fit with the story you could in one instance be taking out a crime lord (light side) or killing a few merchants and their body gaurds. Granted i don't think this will be an every case, but i think a mish mash of similar and unique encounters will occur with both dark side and light side.
Also the one off world quests could be gotten from the same guy as everyone else but the turn in guy could be different.
Then of course you have your similar quest, just asked ot kill a different creature in a different camp but the pick up and turn in guy is the same.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
I find this statement to be interesting actually.
If you're doing the same quest 'lightside' and then doing it 'darkside'... it's still the same quest, yes?
(snips)
... how different is choosing a different class, exactly? Shouldn't they hasten to assure that playing as different classes is on a whole other level of difference, because not only is the outcome of quests different, but the quests themselves are wholly different as well? That was my understanding of how different the classes were...
Maybe the problem is they're just overselling the difference between light and dark side.
I actually never balked at the 'Bioware is doing a whole different set of quests for each class' thing before... they're Bioware, that sounds like something they'd do.
... but the idea that they do a whole different set of quests for each class.... TWICE? What? <.<
If you chose Darkside instead of Lightside, the consequences will be remembered and have impact on follow up encounters and quests. One example was where you had the choice to kill a Sith or not. In a follow up scene, if you have let the Sith stay alive, you'll meet him in an encounter, where he tells you he has reformed his ways and tries to follow the Jedi path. If you have killed him before, this encounter will never happen and you'll get some other quests or scenes instead.
As for different paths, please, if you're really interested, there has been a gazillion handson reports where a lot of people described in detail what kind of quests and stories they experienced, as a Sith, as a Bounty Hunter, as an Imperial Agent, as a Smuggler, etc, etc.
Those were significantly, and I mean significantly different questing/leveling experiences from eachother.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If you chose Darkside instead of Lightside, the consequences will be remembered and have impact on follow up encounters and quests. One example was where you had the choice to kill a Sith or not. In a follow up scene, if you have let the Sith stay alive, you'll meet him in an encounter, where he tells you he has reformed his ways and tries to follow the Jedi path. If you have killed him before, this encounter will never happen and you'll get some other quests or scenes instead.
As for different paths, please, if you're really interested, there has been a gazillion handson reports where a lot of people described in detail what kind of quests and stories they experienced, as a Sith, as a Bounty Hunter, as an Imperial Agent, as a Smuggler, etc, etc.
Those were significantly, and I mean significantly different questing/leveling experiences from eachother.
Right, and I don't have a problem with that statement. That makes sense.
It's just I don't think lightside/darkside will be as unique as different classes.
I just don't. They may be DIFFERENT, and there may be different impacts... but it's not going to be as severely different as different classes.
I may be totally wrong, and they've actually doubled the already insane amount of content they have, but I'm willing to say that lightside/darkside will not be as uniquely different as the difference between one class and another.
Same basic story, different results, as opposed to a totally different story.
(TO be honest, I don't even see why my disbelief on this particular point is unusual. I didn't say 'I don't think it'll be different at all', just I have a hard time imagining it's uniquely different for darkside/lightside, because that would require a truly branching story to make up for all the darkside/lightside choices you have, and that would just be Too Darn Much Content. Technically it would be MORE than doubling the overall content since 'I killed this guy earlier' would have ramifications that would echo with LATER dark/light decisions... and so on.)
(Double edit: Biowares are a master of creating semi-branching stories. They have never done, and probably never will do a truly branching story. Because the amount of work is literally exponential. Bioware stories look like a long line with branches that weave in and out. Because that's sane and programmable. If you have multiple classes, you have multiple long lines with weaving branches. ... but they can't ever have every dark/light side choice lead in different unique ways, because that creates true branching. From 1 to 2 stories... to 4 stories... to 8 stories... to 16 stories.... to 32 stories after only 5 choices.... to oh shit, we ran out of the 300 million dollars that we didn't even spend because that was a made up figure.')
If you chose Darkside instead of Lightside, the consequences will be remembered and have impact on follow up encounters and quests. One example was where you had the choice to kill a Sith or not. In a follow up scene, if you have let the Sith stay alive, you'll meet him in an encounter, where he tells you he has reformed his ways and tries to follow the Jedi path. If you have killed him before, this encounter will never happen and you'll get some other quests or scenes instead.
As for different paths, please, if you're really interested, there has been a gazillion handson reports where a lot of people described in detail what kind of quests and stories they experienced, as a Sith, as a Bounty Hunter, as an Imperial Agent, as a Smuggler, etc, etc.
Those were significantly, and I mean significantly different questing/leveling experiences from eachother.
Right, and I don't have a problem with that statement. That makes sense.
It's just I don't think lightside/darkside will be as unique as different classes.
I just don't. They may be DIFFERENT, and there may be different impacts... but it's not going to be as severely different as different classes.
I may be totally wrong, and they've actually doubled the already insane amount of content they have, but I'm willing to say that lightside/darkside will not be as uniquely different as the difference between one class and another.
Same basic story, different results, as opposed to a totally different story.
(TO be honest, I don't even see why my disbelief on this particular point is unusual. I didn't say 'I don't think it'll be different at all', just I have a hard time imagining it's uniquely different for darkside/lightside, because that would require a truly branching story to make up for all the darkside/lightside choices you have, and that would just be Too Darn Much Content. Technically it would be MORE than doubling the overall content since 'I killed this guy earlier' would have ramifications that would echo with LATER dark/light decisions... and so on.)
You know, it's funny that you mention that. One thing that I always thought was intriguing about the Mass Effect games was how often you get exactly the same end result for the paragon and renegade choices. Like a widow wants you to get the medical examiner to release her husband's body. If you're a paragon, you get the body back by convincing the guy how much the wife is suffering. If you're a renegade, you get the body back by threatening him.
Though there are instances where a renegade has an option to blow somebody up and skip a combat that a paragon can't avoid. I can also easily see this affecting later quests like as Maverick says if you kill someone off or not.
I don't know enough about TOR, just commenting on ME as a previous Bioware example.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It's just I don't think lightside/darkside will be as unique as different classes.
I just don't. They may be DIFFERENT, and there may be different impacts... but it's not going to be as severely different as different classes.
I may be totally wrong, and they've actually doubled the already insane amount of content they have, but I'm willing to say that lightside/darkside will not be as uniquely different as the difference between one class and another.
Same basic story, different results, as opposed to a totally different story.
It can't be as different as when you choose a different class for the simple fact that when you play a different class the whole feel of the combat and the background starter story will be different. That makes playing another class already feel more different than it'd be when you play the same class.
Lightside and Darkside paths within a class can be as different from eachother that they might as well have been another class in the sense that the overlap in quest directives, outcomes, dialogues and follow up quests will be little. Mind you, we're not even talking about where neutral choices will lead to. So far they only made the statements regarding differences between Lightside and Darkside paths, supposedly because the differences there will be larger and more visible.
edit: and of course it won't be all major, huge differences or an ever expanding branching decision tree, they talked about 2 paths, Lightside and Darkside within a class, and how different they felt from eachother, not a million different paths within a class that all felt radically different
I think it was in one of those interviews that they also said that they wanted to make the experience feel very different, whether you chose Darkside or Lightside paths, that you felt that the choices you made had impact and mattered in the story of your character, not that there was hardly any difference whether you chose a Darkside or Lightside decision.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It can't be as different as when you choose a different class for the simple fact that when you play a different class the whole feel of the combat and the background starter story will be different. That makes playing another class already feel more different than it'd be when you play the same class.
Lightside and Darkside paths within a class can be as different from eachother that they might as well have been another class in the sense that the overlap in quest directives, outcomes, dialogues and follow up quests will be little. Mind you, we're not even talking about where neutral choices will lead to. So far they only made the statements regarding differences between Lightside and Darkside paths, supposedly because the differences there will be larger and more visible.
I just deleted everything I wrote, because all I am saying is that lightside/darkside will not be as unique as different classes, unless being different classes isn't really unique. That's all.
I just deleted everything I wrote, because all I am saying is that lightside/darkside will not be as unique as different classes, unless being different classes isn't really unique. That's all.
? Then why the post? Anyway, I replied on that comment already stating exactly that, see my 2 former posts: yes, the different classes are really unique in their Class Quest content, and yes, lightside/darkside are that different from eachother that they might as well be different classes - hence, the dev statements - but the differences won't be as large as the actual differences in Class Quest gameplay and story between the 8 SWTOR classes. It seems we're both in agreement after all
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The problem is your basing it off of a very vague marketing statement. We don't know precisely how this breaks down or even what it truly means. It could mean 100 hours between lightside and dark side, it could mean 200 hours for both. It may count some content that isn't entirely unique but only partially unique etc. Saying it's X times bigger than Rift etc is completely and totally worthless unless we get hard unbiased facts. And serves no purpose what so ever. You compare hardcore features ideally features you've seen in action, you don't compare vague clearly marketting influenced statements that you really have no idea about. Your taking something and running with it when you don't even know what your actually taking. You should take them as vague indicator, don't try to spin them infacts, to compare facts known about other games.
Of course it's all speculation and guesswork, that's what I said, several times in this thread even.
But marketing statement? That depends on whether you believe what devs say or not.
Based on the fact that they made some statements about hours several times by different people, and that they elaborated upon those statements in details several times as well, quite detailed too, makes me inclined to put more value to those words, not just some vague hype talk.
They stated they based the 'hundreds of hours' and '200 hours' gameplay on beta tester metrics, and that it's averages.
They also said that you'll start off with 60-70% of the content you do while leveling being Class Quest content, and then gradually it decreases until it's around 10% around level cap.
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
Those statements alone are already sufficient to make some rough but educated guesses regarding questing content.
Besides, we already know how large Rift is, and how large planets in SWTOR can be, so there's nothing biased there, those things can be compared and yes, normal planets in SWTOR simply are close in size to the world of Rift, so yes, with 13 normal planets the statement can be made that SWTOR is at least x times bigger than for example a Rift, no biased facts there.
You're the one insulting other people and making baseless claims which btw you have even less grounds to base your claims on than you accuse me of, because you can't handle reading positive things about SWTOR.
As for discussing this topic, I've seen a lot worse reasons for people creating threads and making baseless statements and speculations, with far, far less proof or info to make their claims on. So, if you're allergic to reading people comparing SWTOR with other MMO's and SWTOR looking good in comparison based on extrapolated estimates and educated guesses, I suggest you stay away from threads like this one and stick with threads about the game you're feeling all cuddly and hot for
Originally posted by cali59
I'm not here to bash SWTOR. I do think it's healthy to be a little skeptical though when a game, as someone said on page 3, could possibly be considered to have 60 single player RPGs worth of content.
Let's put things in perspective, shall we?
WoW vanilla had already enough questing/leveling content to be I suspect more than 30-35 single player RPG's long at least. I guess WoW CATA might have enough for 70-100+ singleplayer RPG's, with all the expansions and content updates included.
Thing is, you simply can't compare singleplayer games with MMORPG gameplay when it comes down to gameplay and doing quests, well, of course you can measure the number of hours, but the production process is different and the invested dev time per quest/mission in a singleplayer games is more than for a quest in MMO's.
World size /= amount of content, so that's pretty much useless. The total proportion of class content to "multiplayer" is unknown, 200 hours worth of class content is clearly can't be averaged out since class content is mixed in with normal content. So you'd have to measure the length of each individual piece average them out and add them together, either that or use the proportion of class content to total content and work it work, one of these methods is far too resource intensive and the other is pretty innacurate unless they know how long class content takes to be completed in comparison to other types of content as people may go through it faster or slower in comparison to each other skewering the results. You need to properly cross check "facts" provided by the company. Their going to release stuff that makes them look in best possible light, hence why you take it with grain of salt.
Anyway lol at the finger pointing at me and saying I don't believe swtor should have anything good. That's a terrible logic and it''s called not buying the crap every company spews with marketing statements. This is blatantly a marketing term it's an unarguable fact. Not all marketing statements have skewered information, this may not but i'm certainly not taking it at face value, neither would I for any company anywhere that makes such a vague statement. Even supposed facts such as statistics from supposedly reputable sources can have a large degree of inaccuracy which is why I look at all information provided to me from all possible angles and even then take it with a grain of salt.
The total proportion of class content to "multiplayer" is unknown, 200 hours worth of class content is clearly can't be averaged out since class content is mixed in with normal content. So you'd have to measure the length of each individual piece average them out and add them together, either that or use the proportion of class content to total content and work it work, one of these methods is far too resource intensive and the other is pretty innacurate unless they know how long class content takes to be completed in comparison to other types of content as people may go through it faster or slower in comparison to each other skewering the results. You need to properly cross check "facts" provided by the company. Their going to release stuff that makes them look in best possible light, hence why you take it with grain of salt.
Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote? They have the metrics of 1 year and thousands upon thousands of SWTOR beta testers. When they talk about 200 hours of gameplay, it's an average. When they talk about 60-70% content is class story content at first and it gradually becomes less until at level cap it only makes up 10%, then those are figures that they've estimated based on the leveling experiences of their beta players. Looking at how they even noted how often and frequent players visited each little nook and spot in an area to discern traveling and exploring patterns, I'm not surprised at all if they have metrics and data about average quest completion times as well.
(snips) Not all marketing statements have skewered information, this may not but i'm certainly not taking it at face value, neither would I for any company anywhere that makes such a vague statement. Even supposed facts such as statistics from supposedly reputable sources can have a large degree of inaccuracy which is why I look at all information provided to me from all possible angles and even then take it with a grain of salt.
Look, this is leading nowhere, clearly you don't read half of what I'm saying, I have stated multiple times that it's speculation using the available info and that it's educated guesses at best. Personally I find it hypocritical how you're trying to put words in my mouth as if I haven't stated repeatedly that it's speculation, but done on valid info, while you yourself are doing exactly the same and accept without hesitation that GW2 has 98 hours of reaching level cap, and that each level takes 1.5 hour. Where is your calling out 'large degree of inaccuracy' there or your scepticism in believing what devs state?
Sounds like double standards to me.
Originally posted by sonoggi
200 hours per class translates to "too much".
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The total proportion of class content to "multiplayer" is unknown, 200 hours worth of class content is clearly can't be averaged out since class content is mixed in with normal content. So you'd have to measure the length of each individual piece average them out and add them together, either that or use the proportion of class content to total content and work it work, one of these methods is far too resource intensive and the other is pretty innacurate unless they know how long class content takes to be completed in comparison to other types of content as people may go through it faster or slower in comparison to each other skewering the results. You need to properly cross check "facts" provided by the company. Their going to release stuff that makes them look in best possible light, hence why you take it with grain of salt.
Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote? They have the metrics of 1 year and thousands upon thousands of SWTOR beta testers. When they talk about 200 hours of gameplay, it's an average. When they talk about 60-70% content is class story content at first and it gradually becomes less until at level cap it only makes up 10%, then those are figures that they've estimated based on the leveling experiences of their beta players. Looking at how they even noted how often and frequent players visited each little nook and spot in an area to discern traveling and exploring patterns, I'm not surprised at all if they have metrics and data about average quest completion times as well.
(snips) Not all marketing statements have skewered information, this may not but i'm certainly not taking it at face value, neither would I for any company anywhere that makes such a vague statement. Even supposed facts such as statistics from supposedly reputable sources can have a large degree of inaccuracy which is why I look at all information provided to me from all possible angles and even then take it with a grain of salt.
Look, this is leading nowhere, clearly you don't read half of what I'm saying, I have stated multiple times that it's speculation using the available info and that it's educated guesses at best. Personally I find it hypocritical how you're trying to put words in my mouth as if I haven't stated repeatedly that it's speculation, but done on valid info, while you yourself are doing exactly the same and accept without hesitation that GW2 has 98 hours of reaching level cap, and that each level takes 1.5 hour. Where is your calling out 'large degree of inaccuracy' there or your scepticism in believing what devs state?
Sounds like double standards to me.
Originally posted by sonoggi
200 hours per class translates to "too much".
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
Yeah, I mean it is an MMO. Can there be too much? I personally don't think so.
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
lawl, youre gonna recommend DCUO to me? i beta tested it, and when it came out i reached level cap in about a week of casual gaming. many things about the game were excellent, except the SOE part. if end-game wasnt only about gear grinding, and if the PVP wasnt hack-tastic, i would still be playing. SOE simply buckled under the pressure like they always do.
200 hours of repetitive WoW-esque PVE content with the same old mechanics is a snoozefest. quantity does not necessarily go hand-in-hand with quality. take ME2 for example. it takes about 20 hours to do every piece of content on insanity if you know what youre doing. i have 213 hours logged on the game, and i just beat it for the 8th time on insanity. the game is amazing fun because it was so innovative. it is very unlikely that my mind will be able to survive the same amount of hours playing through TOR once.
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
200 hours of repetitive WoW-esque PVE content with the same old mechanics is a snoozefest. quantity does not necessarily go hand-in-hand with quality. take ME2 for example. it takes about 20 hours to do every piece of content on insanity if you know what youre doing. i have 213 hours logged on the game, and i just beat it for the 8th time on insanity. the game is amazing fun because it was so innovative. it is very unlikely that my mind will be able to survive the same amount of hours playing through TOR once.
Hey, you were the one complaining about 200 hours being 'too much'
I think that even 1 hour SWTOR is 'too much' for you, so here's a very simple, obvious truth: if you think you won't enjoy it, don't play it. Simple, eh?
Enough other MMO's around for you to pick from and that you might be able to enjoy, just as there will be quite a lot of people who in contrast to you, will enjoy playing TOR, and just like there are millions of MMO gamers who are enjoying themepark MMO's right now and have been for years. Tastes differ, simple truth. Move on to a game that you do like to play.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Hey, you were the one complaining about 200 hours being 'too much'
ya, it's too much if it's bland
If that's your conclusion without even playing it, nothing is stopping you from moving along. There're other MMO's out there for you, we all have different tastes and things that we find bland or great fun, apparently SWTOR isn't for you, to others it is, luckily you're not forced to play SWTOR or keep spending time following a game you dislike
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The total proportion of class content to "multiplayer" is unknown, 200 hours worth of class content is clearly can't be averaged out since class content is mixed in with normal content. So you'd have to measure the length of each individual piece average them out and add them together, either that or use the proportion of class content to total content and work it work, one of these methods is far too resource intensive and the other is pretty innacurate unless they know how long class content takes to be completed in comparison to other types of content as people may go through it faster or slower in comparison to each other skewering the results. You need to properly cross check "facts" provided by the company. Their going to release stuff that makes them look in best possible light, hence why you take it with grain of salt.
Did you actually read and comprehend what I wrote? They have the metrics of 1 year and thousands upon thousands of SWTOR beta testers. When they talk about 200 hours of gameplay, it's an average. When they talk about 60-70% content is class story content at first and it gradually becomes less until at level cap it only makes up 10%, then those are figures that they've estimated based on the leveling experiences of their beta players. Looking at how they even noted how often and frequent players visited each little nook and spot in an area to discern traveling and exploring patterns, I'm not surprised at all if they have metrics and data about average quest completion times as well.
(snips) Not all marketing statements have skewered information, this may not but i'm certainly not taking it at face value, neither would I for any company anywhere that makes such a vague statement. Even supposed facts such as statistics from supposedly reputable sources can have a large degree of inaccuracy which is why I look at all information provided to me from all possible angles and even then take it with a grain of salt.
Look, this is leading nowhere, clearly you don't read half of what I'm saying, I have stated multiple times that it's speculation using the available info and that it's educated guesses at best. Personally I find it hypocritical how you're trying to put words in my mouth as if I haven't stated repeatedly that it's speculation, but done on valid info, while you yourself are doing exactly the same and accept without hesitation that GW2 has 98 hours of reaching level cap, and that each level takes 1.5 hour. Where is your calling out 'large degree of inaccuracy' there or your scepticism in believing what devs state?
Sounds like double standards to me.
Originally posted by sonoggi
200 hours per class translates to "too much".
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
I don't particularily assume that gw2 has 98.25 hours to reach max level. But there's a difference between developers waving around 200 hours of unique class content and stating that it takes 1.5 hours per level from level 30 onwards. One is a headline marketting statement that's been used in many headlines and the other is an explanation of a leveling mechanic. Point is one is easily verified the other is not.
The information you've stated, percentage of class content through the levelling stages, and 200 hours of class content do not in any way explain what those 200 hours even mean as we know Class content is mixed in between the rest of the content so there may be various aspects included as class content which may not completely be class content, or may be inaccuracies due to how this 200 hours is calculated. Quite simply Bioware gains nothing from knowing precisely how long it takes to go through class content, total content time is important unique class content not so much. Not only is it not important it is also very difficult to measure because it's been said to be mixed in throughout the total amount of content so you would face the problems I've mentioned before(either measuring all parts separately or rough proportions between class content and the rest of the with content with total level times which brings problems of if class content is faster or slower to level through than normal content which would skewer the results). The actual numbers number could be something like 50 hours off either way and it wouldn't matter, as it's unlikely anyone would bother to calculate it accurately, and even if they do and it was 50 hours out it can't be construed as lying as it was a rough estimate to begin with so it doesn't matter.
Quite simply It has no real use outside of marketting and so Bioware have no real need to dedicate resources to make sure it's completely accurate.
The difference between this an time taken to level after 30 with gw2 is that it's far more easier to accurately prove either by A-Net or the players later, so it's either they're lying/changed it later or their not. Even then I wouldn't particularily reccommend extraporlating max level time from it and definitely not total max amount of unique leveling content in game.
My problem with 200 unique hours is that it's inherently vague and hard to accurately measure whereas 1.5 hours after level 30 is very easy to measure. It has nothing to do with the bias between the two games.
My problem with you using these figures for your rough estimations is that if there is a large disparity between Bioware's figures and the actual value there'd be an even bigger disparity in your values making it completely worthless. You could say SWTOR is 10 times bigger than X game when it's only actually 2 etc as you calculation multiplies errors, spreading large misconceptions that are quite simply uneeded. it serves no point. The information should be taken as it is and also with a grain of salt.
I don't particularily assume that gw2 has 98.25 hours to reach max level. But there's a difference between developers waving around 200 hours of unique class content and stating that it takes 1.5 hours per level from level 30 onwards. One is a headline marketting statement that's been used in many headlines and the other is an explanation of a leveling mechanic. Point is one is easily verified the other is not.
Point is that one comes from a source and about a game you're openminded and positive towards, and the other comes from a source and about a game you're much more negative and sceptic about.
Me, I value both the sources equally valid and see no difference in quality of information in them, whether it's 60-70% or 200 gameplay hours or 1.5 hour per level, they're all based on averages and measurements.
(snips bla)
The difference between this an time taken to level after 30 with gw2 is that it's far more easier to accurately prove either by A-Net or the players later, so it's either they're lying/changed it later or their not. Even then I wouldn't particularily reccommend extraporlating max level time from it and definitely not total max amount of unique leveling content in game.
My problem is your using these figures for your rough estimations is that if there could be a large disparity between Bioware's figures and the actual value there'd be an even bigger disparity in your values making it completely worthless. You could say SWTOR is 10 times bigger than X game when it's only 2 etc, spreading large misconceptions.
This is leading nowhere. First, from your words I see that you didn't even bother reading my first posts in this thread else you would have known what was unique of that 200 hours. Your whole statement that I've cut away and the rest, I could've turned the whole argument around, 'why would 1.5 hour per level be valid to ANet? It's just marketing talk' or 'you can measure the 200 hours of gameplay or 60 to 70% of Class Quest content at the start in SWTOR accurately and see if they're lying'. So far, their statements regarding planet sizes were pretty much on spot with the revealed footage, so if all those statements where they throw with figures and percentages was already correct, then I don't see why they'd suddenly be lying when they make statements with percentages and figures when they talk about the questing or leveling content.
You think those numbers could be way off in reality when the game is launched? Fine, then don't believe it, it can be checked after SWTOR or GW2 or other games are launched.
As for the worldsizes, you're too late: people who pay attention to available footage and info already know that SWTOR will be a hell of a lot bigger than Rift, because they've already seen how large a number of SWTOR planets are, enough to confirm the statements of BW devs that planets indeed are very large and approach Rift size, and if Alderaan is as large as 8 WoW zones as they claim, which is easy to trust after seeing Tatooine, then yes, Alderaan is close to Rift size as well.
I'm not just making some vague statements, I base it on the information that I have or that's available, that's a difference.
But hey, you choose to disbelieve anything until the MMO's are released, I choose to make educated guesses that can become more and more accurate and if needed adjusted when more info becomes available. Seeing that we approach this differently, I'd say our ways part here, we both know the stance of the other party in this.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Lightside and Darkside paths within a class can be as different from eachother that they might as well have been another class in the sense that the overlap in quest directives, outcomes, dialogues and follow up quests will be little. Mind you, we're not even talking about where neutral choices will lead to. So far they only made the statements regarding differences between Lightside and Darkside paths, supposedly because the differences there will be larger and more visible.
Is there any hard proof for this? Got any links?
[...]
I think it was in one of those interviews that they also said that they wanted to make the experience feel very different, whether you chose Darkside or Lightside paths, that you felt that the choices you made had impact and mattered in the story of your character, not that there was hardly any difference whether you chose a Darkside or Lightside decision.
Sure, but... that's what they said about all their games, and the truth is that player choices hardly make ANY significant difference. Are you familiar with how Bioware games worked till now? If player choices in SWTOR really have a significant impact most of the time - I'm sold. I don't care about the rest of the game, but a truly non-linear storyline is reson enough for me to play it.
Like some said already, it is odd they talk about "200 hours". Knowing Dragon Age, this probably means listening to npc's and watching in game footage for 150 hours and fight/travel 50 hours.
Knowing todays gamers, the "esc" button will be used a lot. OP as much as you are in love with the game, do you wanna bet that 3 to 4 days after launch every server will have capped characters already, screaming "i am bored to tears" after one week ?
X hours of gameplay is simply a term used in single player liniair games. Bioware has no clue about long term mmo play. I hope for them they don't think an online version of a single player leveling is the core of success ... Because it isn't.
While i haven't played it to an extent where i can say for certain i know the percentages, one of the 8 hour previews said this
I would like to say the combat is ground breaking, but it is no such thing. It does however feel right for the IP, and you do get a sense, that great things are just around the corner. It's a very hard thing to try to predict, how combat and a class feels in these most tender of moments at lower levels. What I can say, is this, as an mmo, will have you in combat more that anything else you have played to-date. It takes you to a sweet spot, that falls between mmo, and shooter. This is were the cut scenes are a welcome brake in you quest lines. You tend to have a more forward thinking approach, to the way you enter a combat situation. You are forever checking what is around you, and where a group of mobs that are close by, to see if they could come into combat rage with you. Picking you moment to strike, or hold off till the added danger has moved on, is an important step to staying alive (SWTOR-UK)
Which kinda makes me think the amount of time you estimated might be the other way around, 50 hours of story with 150 hours of fight/travel.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Like some said already, it is odd they talk about "200 hours". Knowing Dragon Age, this probably means listening to npc's and watching in game footage for 150 hours and fight/travel 50 hours.
Knowing todays gamers, the "esc" button will be used a lot. OP as much as you are in love with the game, do you wanna bet that 3 to 4 days after launch every server will have capped characters already, screaming "i am bored to tears" after one week ?
X hours of gameplay is simply a term used in single player liniair games. Bioware has no clue about long term mmo play. I hope for them they don't think an online version of a single player leveling is the core of success ... Because it isn't.
While i haven't played it to an extent where i can say for certain i know the percentages, one of the 8 hour previews said this
I would like to say the combat is ground breaking, but it is no such thing. It does however feel right for the IP, and you do get a sense, that great things are just around the corner. It's a very hard thing to try to predict, how combat and a class feels in these most tender of moments at lower levels. What I can say, is this, as an mmo, will have you in combat more that anything else you have played to-date. It takes you to a sweet spot, that falls between mmo, and shooter. This is were the cut scenes are a welcome brake in you quest lines. You tend to have a more forward thinking approach, to the way you enter a combat situation. You are forever checking what is around you, and where a group of mobs that are close by, to see if they could come into combat rage with you. Picking you moment to strike, or hold off till the added danger has moved on, is an important step to staying alive (SWTOR-UK)
Which kinda makes me think the amount of time you estimated might be the other way around, 50 hours of story with 150 hours of fight/travel.
I think this is one of the most interesting points about SWTOR, The flashpoint material does look very action heavy and quite fast paced (limited down time). Unfortunately I will admit that frankly regardless of the pace, I have found the combat/gameplay footage as a whole incredibly underwhelming (The heroic combat video early on just never really turned up). I hope they do turn the corner with the combat as I would rather enjoy my gaming experience away from static cut scenes.
Coming back to the proportion of travel/fighting (gameplay) to story. If there is a 1:3 ratio storytelling to actual gameplay I'd be so terribly bored. It is interesting how a game boasting choice/story only lets you make them when your character is essentially taken out of your control, (yes no maybe) heres to hoping Anet's dynamic events provide a more action driven delivery of cause and consequence.
Comments
Of course it's all speculation and guesswork, that's what I said, several times in this thread even.
But marketing statement? That depends on whether you believe what devs say or not.
Based on the fact that they made some statements about hours several times by different people, and that they elaborated upon those statements in details several times as well, quite detailed too, makes me inclined to put more value to those words, not just some vague hype talk.
They stated they based the 'hundreds of hours' and '200 hours' gameplay on beta tester metrics, and that it's averages.
They also said that you'll start off with 60-70% of the content you do while leveling being Class Quest content, and then gradually it decreases until it's around 10% around level cap.
They also stated that when you'd go a fully Lightside path or a fully Darkside path within a class, that it'd be as unique and different from eachother as if you'd chosen a different class, and we have read examples where exactly this is the case, different outcomes in the same quest because of different choices.
Those statements alone are already sufficient to make some rough but educated guesses regarding questing content.
Besides, we already know how large Rift is, and how large planets in SWTOR can be, so there's nothing biased there, those things can be compared and yes, normal planets in SWTOR simply are close in size to the world of Rift, so yes, with 13 normal planets the statement can be made that SWTOR is at least x times bigger than for example a Rift, no biased facts there.
You're the one insulting other people and making baseless claims which btw you have even less grounds to base your claims on than you accuse me of, because you can't handle reading positive things about SWTOR.
As for discussing this topic, I've seen a lot worse reasons for people creating threads and making baseless statements and speculations, with far, far less proof or info to make their claims on. So, if you're allergic to reading people comparing SWTOR with other MMO's and SWTOR looking good in comparison based on extrapolated estimates and educated guesses, I suggest you stay away from threads like this one and stick with threads about the game you're feeling all cuddly and hot for
Let's put things in perspective, shall we?
WoW vanilla had already enough questing/leveling content to be I suspect more than 30-35 single player RPG's long at least. I guess WoW CATA might have enough for 70-100+ singleplayer RPG's, with all the expansions and content updates included.
Thing is, you simply can't compare singleplayer games with MMORPG gameplay when it comes down to gameplay and doing quests, well, of course you can measure the number of hours, but the production process is different and the invested dev time per quest/mission in a singleplayer games is more than for a quest in MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Not trying to start an argument here, but first you estimate WoW's size using the comparison to single player games in order to put the size of SWTOR into perspective, then you turn right around and say you can't compare single player games with MMOs. (EDIT: I agree 100% that we shouldn't use the comparison, and I also concede that I started it.)
You also don't respond to the other part of my post which was that using hours to level is subject to wild variability and not at all a good way to measure either quality or quantity of content. The whole point of the post was in that 2nd paragraph. The lead-in size comparison was a justification, but I could have drawn the same conclusion without it. I'd say the same thing about GW2 as I would about TOR, it's wise to be a little skeptical about any game that hasn't been released.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I find this statement to be interesting actually.
If you're doing the same quest 'lightside' and then doing it 'darkside'... it's still the same quest, yes?
Sure, the outcome will be different, but the basic setup will be the same. It'll be the same person giving you the mission. You'll have roughly the same goals. (Though you may go down the 'bad' or 'good' path) You'll be killing the same kinds of enemies. On the same maps, by and large (You may walk down a different corridor or something)
You cannot possibly get me to believe that Bioware programmed completely different enemies and locations for every single quest, depending upon whether it's lightside or darkside...
So taking the statement in red into account...
... how different is choosing a different class, exactly? Shouldn't they hasten to assure that playing as different classes is on a whole other level of difference, because not only is the outcome of quests different, but the quests themselves are wholly different as well? That was my understanding of how different the classes were...
Maybe the problem is they're just overselling the difference between light and dark side.
I actually never balked at the 'Bioware is doing a whole different set of quests for each class' thing before... they're Bioware, that sounds like something they'd do.
... but the idea that they do a whole different set of quests for each class.... TWICE? What? <.<
My personal opinion on this is that at least in the personal stories you'll start off with the same npc but it could change up from there. I don't expect two completely seperate quests and everything but i do expect them to change up some.
To fit with the story you could in one instance be taking out a crime lord (light side) or killing a few merchants and their body gaurds. Granted i don't think this will be an every case, but i think a mish mash of similar and unique encounters will occur with both dark side and light side.
Also the one off world quests could be gotten from the same guy as everyone else but the turn in guy could be different.
Then of course you have your similar quest, just asked ot kill a different creature in a different camp but the pick up and turn in guy is the same.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
If you chose Darkside instead of Lightside, the consequences will be remembered and have impact on follow up encounters and quests. One example was where you had the choice to kill a Sith or not. In a follow up scene, if you have let the Sith stay alive, you'll meet him in an encounter, where he tells you he has reformed his ways and tries to follow the Jedi path. If you have killed him before, this encounter will never happen and you'll get some other quests or scenes instead.
As for different paths, please, if you're really interested, there has been a gazillion handson reports where a lot of people described in detail what kind of quests and stories they experienced, as a Sith, as a Bounty Hunter, as an Imperial Agent, as a Smuggler, etc, etc.
Those were significantly, and I mean significantly different questing/leveling experiences from eachother.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Right, and I don't have a problem with that statement. That makes sense.
It's just I don't think lightside/darkside will be as unique as different classes.
I just don't. They may be DIFFERENT, and there may be different impacts... but it's not going to be as severely different as different classes.
I may be totally wrong, and they've actually doubled the already insane amount of content they have, but I'm willing to say that lightside/darkside will not be as uniquely different as the difference between one class and another.
Same basic story, different results, as opposed to a totally different story.
(TO be honest, I don't even see why my disbelief on this particular point is unusual. I didn't say 'I don't think it'll be different at all', just I have a hard time imagining it's uniquely different for darkside/lightside, because that would require a truly branching story to make up for all the darkside/lightside choices you have, and that would just be Too Darn Much Content. Technically it would be MORE than doubling the overall content since 'I killed this guy earlier' would have ramifications that would echo with LATER dark/light decisions... and so on.)
(Double edit: Biowares are a master of creating semi-branching stories. They have never done, and probably never will do a truly branching story. Because the amount of work is literally exponential. Bioware stories look like a long line with branches that weave in and out. Because that's sane and programmable. If you have multiple classes, you have multiple long lines with weaving branches. ... but they can't ever have every dark/light side choice lead in different unique ways, because that creates true branching. From 1 to 2 stories... to 4 stories... to 8 stories... to 16 stories.... to 32 stories after only 5 choices.... to oh shit, we ran out of the 300 million dollars that we didn't even spend because that was a made up figure.')
You know, it's funny that you mention that. One thing that I always thought was intriguing about the Mass Effect games was how often you get exactly the same end result for the paragon and renegade choices. Like a widow wants you to get the medical examiner to release her husband's body. If you're a paragon, you get the body back by convincing the guy how much the wife is suffering. If you're a renegade, you get the body back by threatening him.
Though there are instances where a renegade has an option to blow somebody up and skip a combat that a paragon can't avoid. I can also easily see this affecting later quests like as Maverick says if you kill someone off or not.
I don't know enough about TOR, just commenting on ME as a previous Bioware example.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
It can't be as different as when you choose a different class for the simple fact that when you play a different class the whole feel of the combat and the background starter story will be different. That makes playing another class already feel more different than it'd be when you play the same class.
Lightside and Darkside paths within a class can be as different from eachother that they might as well have been another class in the sense that the overlap in quest directives, outcomes, dialogues and follow up quests will be little. Mind you, we're not even talking about where neutral choices will lead to. So far they only made the statements regarding differences between Lightside and Darkside paths, supposedly because the differences there will be larger and more visible.
edit: and of course it won't be all major, huge differences or an ever expanding branching decision tree, they talked about 2 paths, Lightside and Darkside within a class, and how different they felt from eachother, not a million different paths within a class that all felt radically different
I think it was in one of those interviews that they also said that they wanted to make the experience feel very different, whether you chose Darkside or Lightside paths, that you felt that the choices you made had impact and mattered in the story of your character, not that there was hardly any difference whether you chose a Darkside or Lightside decision.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
? Then why the post? Anyway, I replied on that comment already stating exactly that, see my 2 former posts: yes, the different classes are really unique in their Class Quest content, and yes, lightside/darkside are that different from eachother that they might as well be different classes - hence, the dev statements - but the differences won't be as large as the actual differences in Class Quest gameplay and story between the 8 SWTOR classes. It seems we're both in agreement after all
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
World size /= amount of content, so that's pretty much useless. The total proportion of class content to "multiplayer" is unknown, 200 hours worth of class content is clearly can't be averaged out since class content is mixed in with normal content. So you'd have to measure the length of each individual piece average them out and add them together, either that or use the proportion of class content to total content and work it work, one of these methods is far too resource intensive and the other is pretty innacurate unless they know how long class content takes to be completed in comparison to other types of content as people may go through it faster or slower in comparison to each other skewering the results. You need to properly cross check "facts" provided by the company. Their going to release stuff that makes them look in best possible light, hence why you take it with grain of salt.
Anyway lol at the finger pointing at me and saying I don't believe swtor should have anything good. That's a terrible logic and it''s called not buying the crap every company spews with marketing statements. This is blatantly a marketing term it's an unarguable fact. Not all marketing statements have skewered information, this may not but i'm certainly not taking it at face value, neither would I for any company anywhere that makes such a vague statement. Even supposed facts such as statistics from supposedly reputable sources can have a large degree of inaccuracy which is why I look at all information provided to me from all possible angles and even then take it with a grain of salt.
200 hours per class translates to "too much".
Look, this is leading nowhere, clearly you don't read half of what I'm saying, I have stated multiple times that it's speculation using the available info and that it's educated guesses at best. Personally I find it hypocritical how you're trying to put words in my mouth as if I haven't stated repeatedly that it's speculation, but done on valid info, while you yourself are doing exactly the same and accept without hesitation that GW2 has 98 hours of reaching level cap, and that each level takes 1.5 hour. Where is your calling out 'large degree of inaccuracy' there or your scepticism in believing what devs state?
Sounds like double standards to me.
If you find 200 hours too much, I recommend DCUO for you, it sounds like exactly the kind of game for you. You'll reach level cap within 40-50 hours, after that you can do all the level cap gameplay you like
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
nah,, hopefully will be more by release.
The more the better
Yeah, I mean it is an MMO. Can there be too much? I personally don't think so.
lawl, youre gonna recommend DCUO to me? i beta tested it, and when it came out i reached level cap in about a week of casual gaming. many things about the game were excellent, except the SOE part. if end-game wasnt only about gear grinding, and if the PVP wasnt hack-tastic, i would still be playing. SOE simply buckled under the pressure like they always do.
200 hours of repetitive WoW-esque PVE content with the same old mechanics is a snoozefest. quantity does not necessarily go hand-in-hand with quality. take ME2 for example. it takes about 20 hours to do every piece of content on insanity if you know what youre doing. i have 213 hours logged on the game, and i just beat it for the 8th time on insanity. the game is amazing fun because it was so innovative. it is very unlikely that my mind will be able to survive the same amount of hours playing through TOR once.
Hey, you were the one complaining about 200 hours being 'too much'
I think that even 1 hour SWTOR is 'too much' for you, so here's a very simple, obvious truth: if you think you won't enjoy it, don't play it. Simple, eh?
Enough other MMO's around for you to pick from and that you might be able to enjoy, just as there will be quite a lot of people who in contrast to you, will enjoy playing TOR, and just like there are millions of MMO gamers who are enjoying themepark MMO's right now and have been for years. Tastes differ, simple truth. Move on to a game that you do like to play.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
ya, it's too much if it's bland
If that's your conclusion without even playing it, nothing is stopping you from moving along. There're other MMO's out there for you, we all have different tastes and things that we find bland or great fun, apparently SWTOR isn't for you, to others it is, luckily you're not forced to play SWTOR or keep spending time following a game you dislike
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't particularily assume that gw2 has 98.25 hours to reach max level. But there's a difference between developers waving around 200 hours of unique class content and stating that it takes 1.5 hours per level from level 30 onwards. One is a headline marketting statement that's been used in many headlines and the other is an explanation of a leveling mechanic. Point is one is easily verified the other is not.
The information you've stated, percentage of class content through the levelling stages, and 200 hours of class content do not in any way explain what those 200 hours even mean as we know Class content is mixed in between the rest of the content so there may be various aspects included as class content which may not completely be class content, or may be inaccuracies due to how this 200 hours is calculated. Quite simply Bioware gains nothing from knowing precisely how long it takes to go through class content, total content time is important unique class content not so much. Not only is it not important it is also very difficult to measure because it's been said to be mixed in throughout the total amount of content so you would face the problems I've mentioned before(either measuring all parts separately or rough proportions between class content and the rest of the with content with total level times which brings problems of if class content is faster or slower to level through than normal content which would skewer the results). The actual numbers number could be something like 50 hours off either way and it wouldn't matter, as it's unlikely anyone would bother to calculate it accurately, and even if they do and it was 50 hours out it can't be construed as lying as it was a rough estimate to begin with so it doesn't matter.
Quite simply It has no real use outside of marketting and so Bioware have no real need to dedicate resources to make sure it's completely accurate.
The difference between this an time taken to level after 30 with gw2 is that it's far more easier to accurately prove either by A-Net or the players later, so it's either they're lying/changed it later or their not. Even then I wouldn't particularily reccommend extraporlating max level time from it and definitely not total max amount of unique leveling content in game.
My problem with 200 unique hours is that it's inherently vague and hard to accurately measure whereas 1.5 hours after level 30 is very easy to measure. It has nothing to do with the bias between the two games.
My problem with you using these figures for your rough estimations is that if there is a large disparity between Bioware's figures and the actual value there'd be an even bigger disparity in your values making it completely worthless. You could say SWTOR is 10 times bigger than X game when it's only actually 2 etc as you calculation multiplies errors, spreading large misconceptions that are quite simply uneeded. it serves no point. The information should be taken as it is and also with a grain of salt.
This is leading nowhere. First, from your words I see that you didn't even bother reading my first posts in this thread else you would have known what was unique of that 200 hours. Your whole statement that I've cut away and the rest, I could've turned the whole argument around, 'why would 1.5 hour per level be valid to ANet? It's just marketing talk' or 'you can measure the 200 hours of gameplay or 60 to 70% of Class Quest content at the start in SWTOR accurately and see if they're lying'. So far, their statements regarding planet sizes were pretty much on spot with the revealed footage, so if all those statements where they throw with figures and percentages was already correct, then I don't see why they'd suddenly be lying when they make statements with percentages and figures when they talk about the questing or leveling content.
You think those numbers could be way off in reality when the game is launched? Fine, then don't believe it, it can be checked after SWTOR or GW2 or other games are launched.
As for the worldsizes, you're too late: people who pay attention to available footage and info already know that SWTOR will be a hell of a lot bigger than Rift, because they've already seen how large a number of SWTOR planets are, enough to confirm the statements of BW devs that planets indeed are very large and approach Rift size, and if Alderaan is as large as 8 WoW zones as they claim, which is easy to trust after seeing Tatooine, then yes, Alderaan is close to Rift size as well.
I'm not just making some vague statements, I base it on the information that I have or that's available, that's a difference.
But hey, you choose to disbelieve anything until the MMO's are released, I choose to make educated guesses that can become more and more accurate and if needed adjusted when more info becomes available. Seeing that we approach this differently, I'd say our ways part here, we both know the stance of the other party in this.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Hype train -> Reality
While i haven't played it to an extent where i can say for certain i know the percentages, one of the 8 hour previews said this
I would like to say the combat is ground breaking, but it is no such thing. It does however feel right for the IP, and you do get a sense, that great things are just around the corner. It's a very hard thing to try to predict, how combat and a class feels in these most tender of moments at lower levels. What I can say, is this, as an mmo, will have you in combat more that anything else you have played to-date. It takes you to a sweet spot, that falls between mmo, and shooter. This is were the cut scenes are a welcome brake in you quest lines. You tend to have a more forward thinking approach, to the way you enter a combat situation. You are forever checking what is around you, and where a group of mobs that are close by, to see if they could come into combat rage with you. Picking you moment to strike, or hold off till the added danger has moved on, is an important step to staying alive (SWTOR-UK)
Which kinda makes me think the amount of time you estimated might be the other way around, 50 hours of story with 150 hours of fight/travel.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I think this is one of the most interesting points about SWTOR, The flashpoint material does look very action heavy and quite fast paced (limited down time). Unfortunately I will admit that frankly regardless of the pace, I have found the combat/gameplay footage as a whole incredibly underwhelming (The heroic combat video early on just never really turned up). I hope they do turn the corner with the combat as I would rather enjoy my gaming experience away from static cut scenes.
Coming back to the proportion of travel/fighting (gameplay) to story. If there is a 1:3 ratio storytelling to actual gameplay I'd be so terribly bored. It is interesting how a game boasting choice/story only lets you make them when your character is essentially taken out of your control, (yes no maybe) heres to hoping Anet's dynamic events provide a more action driven delivery of cause and consequence.
Lol I saw this coming a mile away, well played sir.