I don't usually think about what gender people are in my games. Instead, I look for people who are nice, skilled and not socially inept. Some of the female gamers i've meet have been some of the best players around, while others seemed always to be at the center of drama strangely enough.
Another experience I've had is that most of the female gamers I've meet usually have husbands and children. Many of them tend to talk alot about their private lives, telling us on vent how lovely their spouses are (who plays the tank or dps more often than not)... That aspect is a bit naggy and uncomfortable.
However, I dont base my conclusions on these anecdotal experiences. I dont feel the need to conclude at all. As I said, I look for nice people who hopefully sticks out in a positive way, and base my friendships on personal experiences with those people. I really think it's nice to have females, transgendered, gays and lesbians, people with intellect, people from other cultures etc in my games.
there is one thing I encountered that irritates me when "female" enter a community.
Real example: I was a member of the hardcore pvp-oriented corp in EVE, and we were member of huge ally. Our corp consisted from about 40 male between 20-50 y.o. 60% of the people played drunk/high most of the time, and we understood each other very well this way. But... when we had to group with other corporations, and there are some delicate and touchy girls/women who don't get, or found offensive our jokes - we have to either shut up, or move to another channel. I've never had such a problem in any male community.
I didn't want to offend anyone, so please forgive me if I did so.
I think many people can understand where you are coming from, its hard to find the words to describe it because they all come with negative connotations so its simpler to say women are less likely to get involved in the depraved depths of crudity that men can sink to. Women do talk about sex or gruesome and sick things and crack jokes about things like that but many women lack the sheer brutal coarseness that men often apply to talking about those things.
It shouldn't be a problem though, whatever someones gender its an issue of having the respect to restrain yourself if someones likely to be offended, would you sit in a bar and describe in detail how a person ends up looking like a goatse in a really loud voice so everyone can hear? Of course you wouldn't and team speaks should be no different.
Obviously respect goes both ways, if someone is offended by it raising a stink and kicking up a fuss when they should just quietly switch channels or muting the channel they lack respect just as much.
But these examples are just general social issues rather than gender issues apart from the fact ladies are more likely to be a little more refined than men.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Gaming just isnt boys in there rooms holding their joysticks anymore folks.
Someone needs to send developer marketing departments that memo, they seem to try and advertise nine out ten games by displaying copious amounts of cleavage and female posteriors. MMOs are the worst for it for some reason to.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Gaming just isnt boys in there rooms holding their joysticks anymore folks.
Someone needs to send developer marketing departments that memo, they seem to try and advertise nine out ten games by displaying copious amounts of cleavage and female posteriors. MMOs are the worst for it for some reason to.
I see this kind of thing said about games and many other products, yet i see just as many biceps and pecs in advertisements too.
Girls playing video games or MMOs is a moot issue and topic for me. I am no more surprised women play video games than I am that I breath oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.
It is stupid to think that women don't play video games or play MMOs. I am trying to talk my GF to play Ultima Online with me or even WoW. She likes playing games and all. So to the article author I must ask: Why the big stink?
lol every girl in that picture is a 4-6, couldn't they get better looking girls and just say they were gamers?
girls have been playing games for a while just not "good" games. My wife's mom plays bejewelled for hours on end, doesn't neccessarily make her a gamer.
The day I got viciously outskilled, ouclassed, ganked, camped and ganked again by a girl in WOW I lost all my prejudices regarding girls in mmorpgs. Except one: girls in guilds = more social interaction but also more drama. (At least that has been my personal experience). No reason for me to look down on them though, as drama can be quite entertaining. ^_^
True dat. I have been owned by girls many-a-time but I still have my prejudices against them. Btw I am not sexist it just seems that the gamer girls I've met in particular (No that's not every GG in the world but I have atleast a test group of the populous for all you feminists out there)have been very judgemental and self-delusional of their own status. Oh, and Girls as guild leaders has never worked for me, that's coming from 9+ years playing MMO's.
I don't think however that's just a "girls do it boys don't" kinda thing, I mean it's not like all female guild leaders are self-delusional bitches and that all male/boy/men leaders are pro's who take everyone's opinion into consideration. But dammit, the amount of times I've been inna guild and the Female guild leaders online love gets privelages over everyone else has been numerous and disastrous, most of the time splitting a guild up that was once 150+ strong :P. But then once again, even though I've never encountered it, there must be loads of boys/men/males who are self-delusional wankers aswell , I just think that females are more inclined to that group, when it comes to them being guild-leaders.
Oh, and srsly? You're whining about being called a "girl"? Grow a backbone please lady, I have been called all sorts of names for a man, and I don't go round making columns whining about the small prejudice, if you can even call it that.
Back when I played the Matrix Online, I did a little experiment: I rolled a female character to see if there's a definitive bias when you're percieved as female on an MMORPG. Of course, the answer was yes across the board. Male players were on the brink of buttkissingly polite and helpful, constantly giving me almost anything I asked for, while female players were also extremely nice and helpful to me, enjoying the solidarity of another girl playing. Of course, I wasn't a girl, as I stated above, but I essentially kept the charade up for the entire 2 years I spent on MxO and the paradigm never shifted for me. I tried this on Guild Wars and it was almost exactly the same situation, though the charade is signifigantly harder to keep up when you roll other characters and people in your guild see you represent both genders on your account.
So, the moral of the story is that gender inequality definitely exists in MMORPGs, but is skewered towards women, who (while being a minority) are treated much better by the other players (likely due to either "uh...BEWBS!" or "Solidarity, Sisters!") than male players.
This is a trick. You came here for a little me time and game talk. Now the fight has come here.There is no place left to hide. Even Kathy Lee Griffith and Hoda are after you. I bet Oprah hates you too.
pletny of great girl gamers out there, only thing i will say about girl gamers is there seem to be less of them then males in gaming the rest of things said about them are mostly steretypes.
Another great article, Isabella. You so often take the time to write eloquently about things I care about, but can't be bothered to post anymore given the responses that these sort of articles usually provoke.
I particularly liked the way you expressed how annoying/inappropriate it is for people (note the use of people, not men!) to refer to grown women as "girls":
"But I’m increasingly tired of being referred to as a ‘girl’ or a ‘female’ – I don’t call men ‘males’ or ‘boys’, at least not often, and I certainly don’t tend to lump them all together as one gestalt entity with all the same characteristics and flaws. I’m long past being a girl (sadly) and yes, that simple word is an issue because there are implications of lack of maturity, lack of capability, and lack of capacity. All in one word? Yep. If I call someone a jerk, there are plenty of implications there too, whether it’s done in jest or not.
Words matter ..."
Succinctly put.
One interesting thing I'd like to point out is that if someone were to post about why racist language is offensive, I can't imagine many people taking issue with that. I invite readers to reflect on why that appears to be the case.
1. Why even write about this? I learned when i was in the Marines, and i observed the female Marines one very important thing about women who try to prove themselves, wether through articulation, or actions -- They are insecure.
2. You didn't actually educate any of us -real- gamers here, we know those Naked Night Elfs were 10 year old boys, it's not very shocked that men who spend most their time playing MMORPGS don't know much about women (For god's sake, they get excited just talking about one.).
3. What exactily are you classifiying as a gamer? MMORPGS? Sure plenty of women play those, Shooters? Rare, Sports? Nearilly unheard of, MMORTS? Competive PvP? (League of Legends, DotA) ? Women tend to stick to MMORPGS, there is huge female market in MMORPGS.
4. You wanna talk about assumptions? Lets ... Female gamers in MMORPGS act as if they are god's gift to the internet and seem to assume that everyone they meet is an anti-social virginate who had never so much as smelled an attractive women, with that assumption in hand they tend to think they are immune, or above the taboos of gaming becuase they have a vagina.
GET OVER YOURSELF.
If you really feel strong about this, then don't complain, just game.
I forgot to mention that I think the issue with termonology is a dicey one. There are girls that play games. There are women that play games. Some games, many games, probably attract both which is why I say female. I don't think it's insulting to call a girl a girl when the age is appropriate. It's just too easy to forget that out there, there are boys and girls, and men and women and we're all gamers playing games. No one wants to be exlucded or, in amny cases, have one group try to minimize their importance all the time.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
1. Why even write about this? I learned when i was in the Marines, and i observed the female Marines one very important thing about women who try to prove themselves, wether through articulation, or actions -- They are insecure.
3. What exactily are you classifiying as a gamer? MMORPGS? Sure plenty of women play those, Shooters? Rare, Sports? Nearilly unheard of, MMORTS? Competive PvP? (League of Legends, DotA) ? Women tend to stick to MMORPGS, there is huge female market in MMORPGS.
I am going out on a limb here and guessing you can't prove any of this... heh, talk about insecurity.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Proof would be a scientific study, actual data. I think you might need to reread the article as well and most the points. No one is bragging about their sexual parts here.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Proof would be a scientific study, actual data. I think you might need to reread the article as well and most the points. No one is bragging about their sexual parts here.
I work in Law Enforcement, i can assure you devoid of sociological data, a person who speaks out the most, is the most insecure/afraid one in a group. Prehaps there is data, i don't care enough to look for it, most is personal experience and my relative perception, as thus i will stick w/ it.
I'm not accusing OP of bragging, i'm stating that -real- male gamers don't care about your gender, matter of fact we are very open to the increase of female gamers, however THOSE females who think that being females makes them better then us de-facto- based on assumptions are a joke, and defending those females with this article is further that point.
Whilst i'm not saying it is, i'm simply saying what was said wasn't needed to be said, don't complain, just game.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Proof would be a scientific study, actual data. I think you might need to reread the article as well and most the points. No one is bragging about their sexual parts here.
Whilst i'm not saying it is, i'm simply saying what was said wasn't needed to be said, don't complain, just game.
I respect your personal experiences. They are just as valid as everyone else's. However, it is easy speaking froma majority position to dimiss the viewpoints of a minority position which is what you are doing. You still can't speak for most, all or many of as your viewpoitn is just that, your viewpoint backed up not by scientific data or even reported numbers from the gaming companies themselves. It is interesting that you bring into question the securities of others but then try to cement your own. It's not about security, it's about represenation and just a general respect girls, women, anyone other than the white male that so many games cater to are due.
It's past time this industry grew the hell up, and the same goes for many of the gamers.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Proof would be a scientific study, actual data. I think you might need to reread the article as well and most the points. No one is bragging about their sexual parts here.
I work in Law Enforcement, i can assure you devoid of sociological data, a person who speaks out the most, is the most insecure/afraid one in a group. Prehaps there is data, i don't care enough to look for it, most is personal experience and my relative perception, as thus i will stick w/ it.
I'm not accusing OP of bragging, i'm stating that -real- male gamers don't care about your gender, matter of fact we are very open to the increase of female gamers, however THOSE females who think that being females makes them better then us de-facto- based on assumptions are a joke, and defending those females with this article is further that point.
Whilst i'm not saying it is, i'm simply saying what was said wasn't needed to be said, don't complain, just game.
I wouldn't say so much that they think it makes them better (though I have come across some that actually do believe that), rather the ones who are excessively vocal about their gender seem to think that it is acceptable to attempt to use their inborne feminine charms online in the same way that they would use them offline. Granted, in gaming it tends to work more often than not by garnering them unnecessary attention and free stuff, but it speaks to the credibility of the individual in both realms just the same - just makes them look incredibly pathetic as human beings.
Comments
I don't usually think about what gender people are in my games. Instead, I look for people who are nice, skilled and not socially inept. Some of the female gamers i've meet have been some of the best players around, while others seemed always to be at the center of drama strangely enough.
Another experience I've had is that most of the female gamers I've meet usually have husbands and children. Many of them tend to talk alot about their private lives, telling us on vent how lovely their spouses are (who plays the tank or dps more often than not)... That aspect is a bit naggy and uncomfortable.
However, I dont base my conclusions on these anecdotal experiences. I dont feel the need to conclude at all. As I said, I look for nice people who hopefully sticks out in a positive way, and base my friendships on personal experiences with those people. I really think it's nice to have females, transgendered, gays and lesbians, people with intellect, people from other cultures etc in my games.
And the Lamb ran away with the crown...
I think many people can understand where you are coming from, its hard to find the words to describe it because they all come with negative connotations so its simpler to say women are less likely to get involved in the depraved depths of crudity that men can sink to. Women do talk about sex or gruesome and sick things and crack jokes about things like that but many women lack the sheer brutal coarseness that men often apply to talking about those things.
It shouldn't be a problem though, whatever someones gender its an issue of having the respect to restrain yourself if someones likely to be offended, would you sit in a bar and describe in detail how a person ends up looking like a goatse in a really loud voice so everyone can hear? Of course you wouldn't and team speaks should be no different.
Obviously respect goes both ways, if someone is offended by it raising a stink and kicking up a fuss when they should just quietly switch channels or muting the channel they lack respect just as much.
But these examples are just general social issues rather than gender issues apart from the fact ladies are more likely to be a little more refined than men.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Someone needs to send developer marketing departments that memo, they seem to try and advertise nine out ten games by displaying copious amounts of cleavage and female posteriors. MMOs are the worst for it for some reason to.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
I see this kind of thing said about games and many other products, yet i see just as many biceps and pecs in advertisements too.
Other products have male and female targeted marketing material but games are the slowest to follow this trend.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Girls playing video games or MMOs is a moot issue and topic for me. I am no more surprised women play video games than I am that I breath oxygen and expel carbon dioxide.
It is stupid to think that women don't play video games or play MMOs. I am trying to talk my GF to play Ultima Online with me or even WoW. She likes playing games and all. So to the article author I must ask: Why the big stink?
lol every girl in that picture is a 4-6, couldn't they get better looking girls and just say they were gamers?
girls have been playing games for a while just not "good" games. My wife's mom plays bejewelled for hours on end, doesn't neccessarily make her a gamer.
True dat. I have been owned by girls many-a-time but I still have my prejudices against them. Btw I am not sexist it just seems that the gamer girls I've met in particular (No that's not every GG in the world but I have atleast a test group of the populous for all you feminists out there)have been very judgemental and self-delusional of their own status. Oh, and Girls as guild leaders has never worked for me, that's coming from 9+ years playing MMO's.
I don't think however that's just a "girls do it boys don't" kinda thing, I mean it's not like all female guild leaders are self-delusional bitches and that all male/boy/men leaders are pro's who take everyone's opinion into consideration. But dammit, the amount of times I've been inna guild and the Female guild leaders online love gets privelages over everyone else has been numerous and disastrous, most of the time splitting a guild up that was once 150+ strong :P. But then once again, even though I've never encountered it, there must be loads of boys/men/males who are self-delusional wankers aswell
, I just think that females are more inclined to that group, when it comes to them being guild-leaders.
Oh, and srsly? You're whining about being called a "girl"? Grow a backbone please lady, I have been called all sorts of names for a man, and I don't go round making columns whining about the small prejudice, if you can even call it that.
Let me preface this by stating that I'm a dude.
Back when I played the Matrix Online, I did a little experiment: I rolled a female character to see if there's a definitive bias when you're percieved as female on an MMORPG. Of course, the answer was yes across the board. Male players were on the brink of buttkissingly polite and helpful, constantly giving me almost anything I asked for, while female players were also extremely nice and helpful to me, enjoying the solidarity of another girl playing. Of course, I wasn't a girl, as I stated above, but I essentially kept the charade up for the entire 2 years I spent on MxO and the paradigm never shifted for me. I tried this on Guild Wars and it was almost exactly the same situation, though the charade is signifigantly harder to keep up when you roll other characters and people in your guild see you represent both genders on your account.
So, the moral of the story is that gender inequality definitely exists in MMORPGs, but is skewered towards women, who (while being a minority) are treated much better by the other players (likely due to either "uh...BEWBS!" or "Solidarity, Sisters!") than male players.
This is a trick. You came here for a little me time and game talk. Now the fight has come here.There is no place left to hide. Even Kathy Lee Griffith and Hoda are after you. I bet Oprah hates you too.
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Deleted cause I was an idiot 10 years ago
pletny of great girl gamers out there, only thing i will say about girl gamers is there seem to be less of them then males in gaming the rest of things said about them are mostly steretypes.
Another great article, Isabella. You so often take the time to write eloquently about things I care about, but can't be bothered to post anymore given the responses that these sort of articles usually provoke.
I particularly liked the way you expressed how annoying/inappropriate it is for people (note the use of people, not men!) to refer to grown women as "girls":
"But I’m increasingly tired of being referred to as a ‘girl’ or a ‘female’ – I don’t call men ‘males’ or ‘boys’, at least not often, and I certainly don’t tend to lump them all together as one gestalt entity with all the same characteristics and flaws. I’m long past being a girl (sadly) and yes, that simple word is an issue because there are implications of lack of maturity, lack of capability, and lack of capacity. All in one word? Yep. If I call someone a jerk, there are plenty of implications there too, whether it’s done in jest or not.
Words matter ..."
Succinctly put.
One interesting thing I'd like to point out is that if someone were to post about why racist language is offensive, I can't imagine many people taking issue with that. I invite readers to reflect on why that appears to be the case.
I never thought we were much of an "issue". Guys have never judged me. o.O
This is the most ignorant, elitist, and sexist post I've ever seen on these forums. Congratulations.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
Couldn't agree more lol.
I don't even consider gender when playing online, all I know is i've got to keep my eye on you all >:|
This is crap.
Several points.
1. Why even write about this? I learned when i was in the Marines, and i observed the female Marines one very important thing about women who try to prove themselves, wether through articulation, or actions -- They are insecure.
2. You didn't actually educate any of us -real- gamers here, we know those Naked Night Elfs were 10 year old boys, it's not very shocked that men who spend most their time playing MMORPGS don't know much about women (For god's sake, they get excited just talking about one.).
3. What exactily are you classifiying as a gamer? MMORPGS? Sure plenty of women play those, Shooters? Rare, Sports? Nearilly unheard of, MMORTS? Competive PvP? (League of Legends, DotA) ? Women tend to stick to MMORPGS, there is huge female market in MMORPGS.
4. You wanna talk about assumptions? Lets ... Female gamers in MMORPGS act as if they are god's gift to the internet and seem to assume that everyone they meet is an anti-social virginate who had never so much as smelled an attractive women, with that assumption in hand they tend to think they are immune, or above the taboos of gaming becuase they have a vagina.
GET OVER YOURSELF.
If you really feel strong about this, then don't complain, just game.
I forgot to mention that I think the issue with termonology is a dicey one. There are girls that play games. There are women that play games. Some games, many games, probably attract both which is why I say female. I don't think it's insulting to call a girl a girl when the age is appropriate. It's just too easy to forget that out there, there are boys and girls, and men and women and we're all gamers playing games. No one wants to be exlucded or, in amny cases, have one group try to minimize their importance all the time.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I am going out on a limb here and guessing you can't prove any of this... heh, talk about insecurity.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Quanitify as to what you suggest would satisify your need for proof?
Yes i am insecure, thats why i replied.. like i said if it wasn't for insecurity people wouldn't feel the need to speak out.
I'm at peace with my insecurity... i accept, no.. i want more female demographics in gaming... i just don't want to hear you brag about having a vagina while doing it.
Proof would be a scientific study, actual data. I think you might need to reread the article as well and most the points. No one is bragging about their sexual parts here.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I work in Law Enforcement, i can assure you devoid of sociological data, a person who speaks out the most, is the most insecure/afraid one in a group. Prehaps there is data, i don't care enough to look for it, most is personal experience and my relative perception, as thus i will stick w/ it.
I'm not accusing OP of bragging, i'm stating that -real- male gamers don't care about your gender, matter of fact we are very open to the increase of female gamers, however THOSE females who think that being females makes them better then us de-facto- based on assumptions are a joke, and defending those females with this article is further that point.
Whilst i'm not saying it is, i'm simply saying what was said wasn't needed to be said, don't complain, just game.
I respect your personal experiences. They are just as valid as everyone else's. However, it is easy speaking froma majority position to dimiss the viewpoints of a minority position which is what you are doing. You still can't speak for most, all or many of as your viewpoitn is just that, your viewpoint backed up not by scientific data or even reported numbers from the gaming companies themselves. It is interesting that you bring into question the securities of others but then try to cement your own. It's not about security, it's about represenation and just a general respect girls, women, anyone other than the white male that so many games cater to are due.
It's past time this industry grew the hell up, and the same goes for many of the gamers.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I wouldn't say so much that they think it makes them better (though I have come across some that actually do believe that), rather the ones who are excessively vocal about their gender seem to think that it is acceptable to attempt to use their inborne feminine charms online in the same way that they would use them offline. Granted, in gaming it tends to work more often than not by garnering them unnecessary attention and free stuff, but it speaks to the credibility of the individual in both realms just the same - just makes them look incredibly pathetic as human beings.