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A disheartening trend in MMO gaming philosophy
Foomerang
Member UncommonPosts: 5,628
Recently, Ive noticed a growing trend of frustration, boredom, and unrest in the mmo community. Ive seen it particularly on these forums, but also in the last half dozen or so MMOs ive played.
Im starting to think the underlying problem here is that too many people are playing mmos for the wrong reasons. The question shouldnt be What "Unique" and or "new" things does xx bring?, but rather What unique or new thing can I bring to xx?
Why are people even playing mmos if they are so hung up on what will this game do for me. Somewhere during all of this mess called the mmo genre, the point of MMOs got lost in the shuffle of shovelware and facebook. It doesnt matter how innovative or new or unique an mmo is. The experience will always be the same if the people who play it never change. MMOs are the only games that let you shape other peoples experiences and them yours. This whats in it for me attitude is killing the genre.
Do youself a favor, think about all of the worthwhile experiences youve had in an mmo. Think about all the memorable times, the ones worth telling someone else about. Was it because of some new feature? Or was it because of the people you were playing with? I hope it was the latter.
Id like to see the mmo community get back to where it once was. We all started playing these games so that we could play together. We put up with inferior graphics, bugs, etc just so that we could have an adventure and meet new people, make new friends, and even enemies. Your completely voiced over personal story is great. Your dynamic events are great. Your cutting edge graphics, innovative combat system, deep crafting, and player made cities are amazing. But all of that cool stuff takes a backseat to the people you play with. You may be a lone wolf or a guild leader with 500 members, it doesnt matter. When you interact with other players, no matter how much or how little, thats what makes an mmo an mmo. Not all the new shinies.
Comments
To paraphrase.. The mmo community no longer targets specific types of players.. but aims for the largest possible audience
However, another question to ask yourself is "Would I be willing to pay triple or quadruple a normal games subscription cost to make up the the niche game I am looking for"
For me... the answer is yes.
the problem, which is proven in part by your post, is that games allow us to bring less and less to a game and more and more force us down a narrow tube and into the same porcelain bowl at the end.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
Games dont allow us to bring less and less of ourselves. Your personality doesnt change based on game features, or at least it shouldnt heh. God I hope not lol
You're late.
I was immediately ready to answer 'no' to this, then I thought a bit and realized that there is a very specific niche that I would pay a comparative king's ransom to play. But it is so niche that I feel secure that I'll never in my lifetime see it. Certainly, there are *very* few games today that are worth even a nominal subscription fee, let alone a standard one.
options do limit you.. say you weren't allowed to dance or sing in a game.. and you prided yourself on dancing or singing for your character.. they would severly limit your personality.
I'm sure there are other more in depth examples but I thought i'd start with something fairly basic for people to wrap their minds around it.
Exactly.
Unfortunately, MMOs are getting more and more solo oriented to the point that lots of players get to level cap without having ever grouped once.
Also, what the hell, now I am supposed to work for the game I am paying for? WTH? No way. I am the customer, so, yes, I want the game to do things for me since I am the one paying. I want my MMO to encourage grouping and promote a community feeling. No, I don't want to struggle to build a community in a solo-oriented game that I am paying for. And don't get me wrong, I am usually the player organizing groups and running guilds, I am very group-oriented. But there is no way you can justify something like "don't think what the MMO can do for you but what you can do for your MMO".
As a paying customer I demand the game to provide me fun. Is it that surprising?
options do limit you.. say you weren't allowed to dance or sing in a game.. and you prided yourself on dancing or singing for your character.. they would severly limit your personality.
I'm sure there are other more in depth examples but I thought i'd start with something fairly basic for people to wrap their minds around it.
Visually, yes that is limiting. But you can always say that you are dancing just like in the mudd or pnp days. Graphics and visual affects will never be as good as your imagination anyway
I can see the point you are trying to make
However ... I'd prefer games to allow further customization.. for example to actual create your own dances or songs..
or write your own books.. like in the ultima online days.. back before 3D gaming....
customization shouldn't be feared.. it should be embraced... not how many people can i get to play this game.. but rather how fun and dynamic can i make it?
I agree with the spirit of this thread but what i think is gone for a lot of people is that feeling when you first discovered MMO's. Playing with folks was new and exciting. People were new along with you and everyone wanted to group and try and figure things out since the internet possibly at the time didn't have every answer you were looking for. I still enjoy playing with great people but I think after you've played some MMO's while the other people you're playing with are an important feature to the game, even playing with terrific groupmates won't mask a bad game. I still need to play a game I find interesting and compelling to go along with hopefully teaming up with other fun players.
Except for the fact that you pay money to a company in return for their services. Thus they are obligated to provide a unique experience.
OP, I don't think the problem is that the players are doing less to make MMORPGs interesting. The problem is that these games are being designed to restrict the player and resemble a single player game more and more.
For example, a game like WoW presents the player with a very accessible and efficient way to advance by doing a ton of essentially single player quests. In this case, the developer basically WANTS the player to do those quests. That's why they made them.
However, while the player is doing single player quests, they can't really bring much to the MMORPG community, they are too busy questing. Even worse, encountering other players while questing is typically undesirable because they may kill your MOBs. Yelling at the player for not bringing more to the game in this situation is ridiculous because you are basically saying:
"Why are you doing what the developer clearly wants you to do!!! Make this game better dammit! Do /dance at the bank!!!"
If we really want games to be fun BECAUSE of the player like they used to be, as opposed to being fun in spite of the other players as they are now, then the game will have to be designed with that in mind. It should actually encourage community instead of making the presence of others typically undesirable.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
This isn't a new trend. Even when Kunark was the newest expansion of EQ, it was tough to get a group together to go into 'the unknown', places like Nurga or Droga. The bulk of the population went to Karnor, leaving that zone overcrowded and others barren. Players either wanted something 'known' or to follow the herd. I know I personally spent hours trying to get a group together for a 30-40 Droga romp, only to find that the zone may have had 1 solo druid camping a spawn.
When the higher level guilds tried LDoN raids, the word got around that they were difficult and under-geared, and therefore worthless. Medium level guilds, who was pretty much the target audience for LDoN raids never even attempted these.
It's not only in EQ. This phenomena appeared in WoW, in EQ2, in every game that followed. Players are jaded with the LFG process, and want to do something the instant they log on. Since the game is built around the kill-loot-level cycle, to many players, playing the game means killing something. Time spent looking for a group or socializing or role-playing became seen as 'wasted' time, and since the game offered methods for most every class to solo, solo play became the most prominent play style in MMOs.
I don't really see this changing, not without some fundamental changes from the MMO developers. If the game is a grouping game, then remove the ability to solo. Put severe penalties on killing beneath your level tp curtain farming and powerleveling. Make the grouping experience something more than 3-5 people in an artificial sub-community, each acting solo. Define roles in groups and make the roles dependent on each other.
Would a game focused on this work? Probably not. We, the players, are just too focused on instant-gratification and personal advancement. We juggle work and entertainment and family and friends. There's only so much time in the day.
There's no social stigma against being selfish with our time in games. Most people wouldn't cut in line at a movie theater, and their demands to immediately start the movie wouldn't work in a movie theater. People are more tolerant of time delays in the real world, because there may be consequences to their actions. But the gamer's expectation is about instant incorporation into the gaming experience.
I've long thought that the MMORPG market should more accurately represent themselves as Persistent Online Solitaire Game Worlds, because there's very little that requires social interaction, and very few tools to role-play.
But changing this is going to be a monumental effort on both sides of the monitor.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Well I usually have quite a bit of break between playing mmorpg's. My longest was almost 5 years. So when I start new mmorpg I am usually quite fired up and enthusiastic. I frequently even don't remember of certain bad things that are in mmorpg's when I return to them.
But I certainly see a diffrence in players. Every time I return to mmorpg's players are more instant gratification type, don't want to take risks, more elitistic (like they leave in middle of instance if group wipe), not interested in interacting with other players to extent that many don't respond in chats in instances, etc.
What is worst current mmorpg's actually encourage this kind of behaviour. New player quickly learn that doing everything solo in during levelling is faster than looking for group and is rewards are same. So why bother grouping and talking?
Player learn as well that crafting is pointless becasue best items are in instances and only way to get them is to grind instances.
There is no housing and exploration is pointless as world is small , filled with mobs on every corner which make exploration bothersome and it does give you nothing becasue a) craft resources are groupped into convenient resources groups b) crafting is pointless.
Since there is nothing to do in end game apart of grinding instances/raids/battlegrounds to keep players busy developers need to make them grindy. If it is small drop rate or many tokens need to barter does not matter.
What matters is player quickly learn that he need to do instances quickly becasuse he will do certain instances dozens or hunder of times. So in order to do them quickly he need to cut on 'meaningless' things apart of killing mobs/bosses in instances.
So he 'need' to:
1.find groups quickly (dungeon finder comes here) ,
2.he need to eveluate if player is good so instance is done quickly and without wiping (gear score),
3.don't need to talk (typing ,talking takes time) ,
4.he need dps to do it fast (dps meters, focusing on dps-ing),
5.consumeables to do it even faster (trash talk those that dont use consumeables inside instances + need to grind or /and buy gold from gold seller).
6. teaching others takes too long (trash talking players that don't know instance or kicking them from group or rage quitting to find another group because this takes too much time and he has to do other daily instnaces as well today...)
So becasue of grind players want game to be easier and more solo friendly to grind faster and easier. Because games provide faster and easier levelling , grouping , etc mmorpg's gets old in a blaze. So player roll an alt or go to other mmo , but he finished levelling recently. So he don't really want to do it again, so he whine it takes too long -> game developers make it even faster (like Rift 1-2 weeks *facepalm*) , world even smaller and artificial so player dont have to go more than 5 m to find anything. Then to keep player playing 'end game' game devvelopers add another tiers and revamp old instances + they constantly boost or nerf classes so people roll alts.
Sure mmorpg community is now more broad than before , more causal ,etc BUT players getting bored , players having demanding atttitude ,and leaving mmorpg's after first 3 months is CAUSED BY DEVELOPERS ALSO.
Really it so obvious if you look at changes in mmorpg's in last years it is even embarassing to point it out again.
I do think it's possible for innovation to provide entertainment in and of itself. I think that doing something wildly different can be fun simply because it is wildly different, without even having to stoop to the level of gimmick. However, I don't think that's what most players are looking for when they say they want games to be unique or do something new. Actually a lot of players don't have the slightest idea what kind of new thing they're looking for. At best, they're able to talk about things that they dont like in current games or things that they liked in older games.
Making mmo games more group friendly would be a long overdue start, and im not talking about punishing solo players with less experience either, i am talking about every player grouped or not getting the same experience..
For years mmo games have claimed and stressed the importance of grouping yet they punished/penalized players for grouping just because the group kills faster or they force grouping to move forward, now thats real social and player friendly interaction isnt it?
The fact of the matter is why would i want to solo one mob while a group of 4 comes by ravaging 3-5 mobs to my one and they are getting the same 100 exp i am per kill each, if they invite me im already there!
The fact that most companies dont want you to advance to quickly until you have paid your dues in terms of many monthly payments is the real culprit here and its actually quite anti social imho..
Playing GW2..
Erm they actually do advancing blazingly fast. Max level is nowadays matter of 1-3 weeks, maxing crafting is usually few days.
They do insane grind at max level though at so called 'end game'.
Many people had this for years in WoW and other games and many feel like 'I've done this before' and so leave game after few months.
What is wildly diffrent nowadays is that average subscription time is actually much lower than in past. It is one of reasons of item shops and other microtransactions coming into mmorpg's so they can milk player as much as they can before those three months is over and player leave the game.
Older mmorpg's were more about keeping you in game longer , new mmorpg's would want it as well but at same time they actually design games in a way that attract more wider audience at start but same game attributes cause players to stay for shorter because content gets older quicker.
Games' purpose has always been to entertain. MMOs are no different, no matter how similar early MMORPGs may have been to a Chat Rooms.
Usurprisingly as MMORPGs became more game-like, they've become wildly more successful. The early experiences were empty. Calling them "chat rooms" is probably excessive, but well...back in the day they were actually called that a lot.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In my opinion the problem is in MMO's marketing campaigns. Most of them Hype their game beyond their reality and/or hide or makeup ugly parts. But above all, there's this mentality of "not reinventing the wheel".
Current mmorpg's are still beign called chat rooms just graphics in this chat rooms are better atm.
That is actually what end game looks like in many mmorpg's. Player sit in his favourite/main city in an graphical chat room waiting for instance group to fill in ,then have some break to do instance ,then go back to standing in city and chatting. Rinse and repeat.
I don't know what you are calling early experiences but I had less idle chat in UO for example than in new mmos. Definately not "empty". Well but I guess different players will have diffrent memories and/or opinions on this matter.
Not sure. It's a good discussion point. I personally think if you look at life as a pessimist you're simple a fool taking the easy option. Why? It's easy to answer, look at the short view of things and it seems to be in problems all over. Yet where there is life there is problems and life has been steadily evolving away for over some billion(s) of years here on earth and just look at the changes... those genes inside you have travelled a colossal journey; and even the cultural memes in your head as well : )
Anyhow that is the philosophy out of the way.
I think MMORPGs have more potential than single-player games in various ways esp. teamwork/community and growth of something multi-dimensional in a virtual space. I'm positive about where this genre can go, but I'm glad I'm not the one programming for it, however.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
"fun" killed "epic"
There you have it in three words. I don't feel like typing the same stuff over and over and over.
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
My friend.. the players of old times weren't better people. It is how the MMORPGs are designed now adays which made communities impossible. You speak like we've changed and we need to stand up and hold hands together singing hippie songs. You're not seeing the big picture.
There are many obstacles for having good communities in recent MMORPGs. How do you expect people to interact when you're keeping them busy ALL THE TIME with errands and chores that never ends. Players are always doing some NPC laundry non-stop and it never stops. There's no content beyond the quest driven syndrom. That's how the game is designed... to hand hold you from point to point.
Imagine 10 kids in a kinder garden set free for 2 hours. They'd play together forming relationships.
Imagine same 10 kids but this time with their mother hand holding them all the time. No interaction.
Don't blame the community, people weren't angels in old days and not stupid in current days. It's the MMORPG new standardized concepts.
There are no community-promoting skills like Teleportation from EverQuest where Druids and Wizards were saught after for their services. Or death penalties harsh enough to seek out Clerics and Paladin rezzes.. or Dungeons big enough to seek out your Shadow Knight and Necros to summon your corpse...etc
The whole economy has been trivialized. Now the Auction House COMPLETELY eliminated player-to-player interaction. Before we had such a trading beautiful community knowing your friendly store with competitive prices. Now searching for the lowest price (to under cut it) is as easy as pressing a button. The whole thing is made into an in-game application. You don't need to talk to players or bargain because... you have the Auction House.
See, my friend? Were you aware of these changes? I don't think any person can disagree with these facts that these game elements discourage community. I bet you all my money and my house on top of it. If you remove the AH and Quest Driven Content.. then set players Free and add more "Community Skills" and also make the world harsher where player cooperation is mandatory.. I bet you, you'll see the best community in an MMORPG for the last 7 years.