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Pay 2 win becoming legitimate? Have we really lost our way this much?
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It's the fact that virtual items are suddenly quantifiable on real world currency values that makes a game boring and no longer enjoyable for me. Rather than an item feeling like an accomplishment within the game, it's suddenly quantified by a real currency value that can be used in a cost benefit analysis against alternative methods of acquisition -- aka paying versus slaying.
The real world valuation of my ingame acquisitions overrides my enjoyment of the game, because I start to think about how I've spent x hours grinding for something worth y dollars, and had I just spent y dollars I could have saved z hours of time. But were I have done that, then why am I even spending any time or money in the game in the first place?
I'd much rather just play a game where in-game accomplishments are acquired solely by ingame means. Otherwise it just triggers the same cost benefit analysis paradox that invalidates any sense of enjoyment of the game for me.
Wrong.
The Diablo franchise has typically been PvE-oriented. The advantage that you woud gain from RMT isn't an advantage over other players necessarily, it's an advantage over the content of the game. That advantage is how real-money transactions ever occurred in the first place. No one would have ever placed any value on game items if they didn't actually increase the ability to dominate the content. It is "Pay to Win."
Even if the RMT's were limited to cosmetic items that didn't affect gameplay in any way other than graphical, you could still apply a "Pay to Win" label, because for those players that would exchange real money for cosmetic items, looking good must be a game objective. They "win" by getting the item appearance that they want.
Before you continue to disparage people for not knowing what they are talking about, you might want to spend a few minutes in front of the mirror.
Thanks, saved me from typing the same thing
.
I mean, I know that everyone has their own personal definition for a lot of these newer terms, but I thought that everyone accepted that P2W meant buying some kind of material advantage in a game with real money. It doesn't matter if that advantage comes from another player or from a developer run cash shop...it's still P2W.
EDIT: I do want to add that I have nothing against buying cosmetic items, even though it could be considered P2W. It doesn't really bother me because they are normally things that can only be obtained through the cash shop, and they don't really give you an advantage over the game's content.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
i bet there are nobody from corporative incentive trying to make us feel good about various subject here.it would never happen right?nha corp are way to sensitive about the need of their customer in gaming to try to come here and sway the gamers opinion
Wow way to personally attack...
I'll just ignore that and respond to what you had to say
Again you are ALSO using the term wrong.
Pay to Win = Buying something that gives you an unfair advantage that is unattainable to the normal player.
Johnny goes and kills a rare boss, gest a rare item, and he has it yay!
Bob goes to the AH and sees the same rare item for 5 bucks on the AH, he too now has it, yay!
Where is the pay to win? (Again, unfair advantage... where???)
Edit: According to YOUR logic WoW is Pay to win becaues you can buy gold... Technically all games would be then... Blizzard allowing Players to sell items that they attained inside the game to OTHER players, is not game breaking.
Pay to win doesn't mean that. Or at least in my mind there is something very wrong with your statement.
If in World of Warcraft someone was able to buy all the top tier Hardmode gear with real money, most, if not all people except you would call that Pay-to-Win. Those pieces of gear are attainable by the normal player. They are very difficult to get and require an excellent group to get, especially if one expects to be fully geared, but they are attainable.
If you remove the word "unattainable" from your post, then you have what I think is the most commonly used definition of Pay-to-Win.
Buying something with real money that gives you an unfair advantage over the normal player.
In other words, your entire argument is based on something that most people don't agree on.
I think we just don't agree with your definition
. I have never heard the "unattainable to the normal player" phrase being added to that definition. Generally when I see people to P2W it means buying some kind of in-game advantage with real money, whether it's obtainable to other players or not. If you think I'm so offbase with this definition, then see this thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/323619/Help-me-understand-pay-to-win-please.html. I didn't see a single person in there put the "unobtainable to the normal player" constraint in their definition.
And here's the difference in D3. If D3 had a normal auction house, you COULD still buy an uber item, but you would have to spend in game gold to do it. This gold would have to have been acquired through normal in game means, farming, questing, playing auction house, trade skills, whatever. So even though you still bought the item, you had to earn in-game money to do so...it's a closed system.
With an RMAH on the other hand, you could just log on day 1 and buy some uber items without ever playing. It's not a closed system and it really changes the game environment.
And about WoW...yeah you can buy gold in WoW. But guess what? That's a BANNABLE offense. Buying gold is not "part" of WoW, it's essentially a way to cheat. If you could legitimately buy gold in WoW, then it would be P2W as well.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
It lost its way a while back already and its even getting worse.
Result for me personally is ill prolly eventually won't play mmo's and multi player games anymore.
I play games for RELAXATION and FUN, but when most players around me are only concerned about how to make real money and fixed on getting the good items so they earn money MY FUN IS GONE i QUIT then.
You realy dont get it do you?
You are right, you COULD get some gear from the real money AH with only logging in one time, however its the same gear everyone else can get from just working for it, and Blizzard isn't even selling those items other players are.
So you can't just BUY the best gear in the game, for one it has to be up on the AH and for two it has to be tradable, we're all ASSUMING the best gear in the game is ALL tradeable at this point.
Again, having bought all the cool loots off the real money AH what advantage does he have over other players? None! They all can get the same gear and the same things he did, and then sell some of it ON the real money AH.
In most PVE games winning is beating the most powerful hardest boss in the game right?
Now if Blizzard was selling the big boss kill and offering you some way to kill him waaay easier for money, then yes i'd say thats pay to win.
However you will still have to have the skill to kill all the bosses, on the same level as everyone else playing the game.
My problem with you labeling all these games Pay to Win is then people don't have words for the games that ACTUALLY ARE PAY TO WIN!
There are plenty of F2P PVP games out there that you simply CANNOT compete against other players unless you pay the game owners REAL money for items ONLY attainable through their RMT Market page.
Aika had that problem and there are a few other games too.
i am sorry to say you are right ! console gaming wasnt mmo but the way it is has been going on for years (since cs player learned how to chest)it gets to a point like why am i bothering trying have fun if corp in one fell swop cut the fun!
I agree.
Well if you do not count the fact in Diablo 2 if you got caught using RMT to get that great item on day 1 you got in trouble with Blizzard. Then you are right nothing has changed!
What I don't understand is how you guys are acting like someone can log on and instantly be level 50 (or whatever cap is) and get the best gear in the game (assuming its tradable and on the AH) for real money.
That still does not make it any more or less fair or unfair than a normal AH. What if someoen gets to 50 from leveling and is UBER RICH on in game money from PURE LUCK, and buys all the stuff on the AH with in game gold.
Some one else gets there had poor luck, is very poor in game, buy s afew things off the AH for real money.
WOOOOAH thats such an unfair advantage! LUCK is clearly not fair, Nerf luck.
the reason there was no economy was of the fact you could play offline etc,not this time.you WILL be required to play online only!
this is a big difference for the economy .rmt wasnt needed.activison wanted a piece of the pie so blizzard had to do this !plain and simple!
I think it all depends on the focus of the game, what you're able to buy with real money, and the business model the MMORPG has adopted. I'd also like to point out that this thread lacks focus on what you're talking about when you say "Pay to Win." Are we talking buying equipment and weapons? Potions to speed up leveling? Access to additional content?
Most people use that term to describe the buying of equipment and items with real world money. If the game is all about tackling content or fighting other players or both, then buying items with real money that everyone else can access by just playing the game, then there really isn't anything wrong with it. If the purpose of the game is to obtain the most powerful items, then buying them with real money devalues the effort required to obtain those items. But if a game is about getting the best items, then that game is shallow to begin with, and a person buying those items are only taking the fun out of the game itself.
If a person buys items so that they can participate in content and PvP, then that person still needs to put forth the effort to play that content and beat it, as well as becoming skilled to fight other players.
The mere option of RMT changes the spirit of the game. When my ingame playtime can be calculated against a real world valuation of money, then it's no longer enjoyable because it feels like I'm wasting my time 'working' for ingame achievements that are worth a fraction of what I make were I to have spent that time actually working.
Given the options of spending hours grinding for a rare upgrade, or spending a few bucks for the upgrade, you're in a lose-lose scenario. If you choose to grind, you're wasting time compared to the real world payout. If you choose to buy, then why the hell are you even 'playing' the game in the first place?
Games with RMT, such as Diablo 3, may not necessarily be considered P2W. They are however, still PvS (Paying versus Slaying), and as such they're just as bad as P2W to me.
trust me it wont be long till max level is reached .and it will probably be done by athene since he did say he was gona play this title!
it is very simple its like this:player baught diablo 2 played diablo 2 till they dropped!buy2play!this is what diablo fan are used to this is what they want!
It sounds like Blizzard could have designed a better in game economy from what you have stated here. Instead they went and added legitimized RMT and from this gamers view point it was the wrong way to go.
RMT was a HUGE third party part of D2, almost any friend you had who played D2 probably bought items.
For this one game, i see it as a good way to go...aside from blizzard taking a cut even if your item doesn't sell
Yeah and just to add to this...I don't like the whole "pseduo-MMORPG" direction that they took D3 either. I mean, D1 and D2 were very clearly single player games with lobby-based coop and ad-hoc PvP. Why try to give D3 all these crazy MMORPG features? Always online? RMAH auction house (auction house at all)? No mods? Why???
The only reason I can think of is that Blizz wanted to find a way to profit more from the game. No mods means they have no competition for their DLC, always online means that there will be no cheats or hacks, making the RMAH the only way that players can "cheat" so that Blizzard can collect their tax.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
No they didn't buy items they played the game like a typical gamer would! Not shell out your RL cash to make D2 even easier than it already was ><!
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<!</p>Yeah I don't really get this: RMT was a HUGE part of D2 argument...I played D2, I never even knew it existed. I mean, I think only the truly hardcore players would probably buy stuff for real money in that game. And considering the game came out over 11 years ago, the truly hardcore are probably the only people still playing it. My bet is they are an extreme minority of all the people who bought D2 though.
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Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I guess that rids of us of the necessity of RMT transactions as well since they will be D3's in game economy! Did you even think about that reply?