Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Dave Chappelle doing "Wife Swap" on his show was satire until they actually made it a show. I thought this post was out of character for Creslin but given the other threads the pub sees, it didn't seem out of place at all. Consider me fooled.
Chappelle apparently filmed his episode before the UK Wife Swap aired, but yeah they beat him to it, at least in the UK.
Anyway, my point was that the post is only recognizable as satire if it's more ridiculous than the other threads around here. I'm not so sure.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles, I think this whole argument has been beneficial to me, because it helped me understand exactly WHY P2W upsets me so much.
When I first heard about RMAH in Diablo3 I was really annoyed, but I couldn't exactly pinpoint why. Now I realize that my real gripe isn't that people are leveling "faster" than me...it's the whole idea of coming out with a game and then making people PAY to skip content. Doesn't this seem like a messed up business model to you? I think it just encourages devs to make games with tons of boring content that no one but the really hardcore want to do, so they can charge people to skip it.
It just seems like a con to me, and so backwards. Get people hooked on a game by making the beginning interesting...put a huge fairly boring grind in the middle or make farming items exceedingly painful, and then tell players that they can skip the horrible grind if they just cough up some more dough. It seriously sounds like the same tactic that drug dealers use.
I normally expect to get MORE content when I spend money. Not just get the privilege to skip it.
When this stuff was only in F2P games it didn't bother me because it was "contained," and hey, you're playing for free, someone has to subsidize your experience. But now it's starting to invade B2P games as well and my fear is that it will become a standard "feature" of many premium video games and what my generation used to call "cheat codes" will now be packaged products for any willing gamer to purchase. Doesn't this seem a little f@#ked up to you?
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
What am I stating as a fact and what data are you providing proving it's untrue? The only thing I'm stating is that P2W (or paying to skip content, whatever you want to call it) games exist, and that it seems like this concept could be invading P2P and B2P games. Are you denying this is true?
The RMAH in Diablo 3 will let you buy items that you would have otherwise had to play the game to get...sounds like paying to skip content to me. Blizzard even gives the argument "some people have more money than time" to justify this. I drew a parallel to "cheats" in single player games that give you items and the new trend of charging people real money for items. I don't see how this is far-fetched. In DOOM 2 I could have typed IDFKA and got all the weapons, now in BFH I have to pay some dough to get weapons...sounds pretty similar to me.
I'm not an expert on P2W games, because I obviously dislike them so I don't really play them. I'm not going to be able to give you specific examples of games with P2W when you ask for it without googling it. And even then, I won't have the base of knowledge about any of these games that someone who actually plays them would have. This doesn't change the fact that I know they exist.
Also, many of my arguments are just responses to other arguments. For example, many P2W defenders argue that things like exp potions or items for sale in the cash shop are good things because trying to acheive exp or items in the game through normal means is terrible because it's such a horrible grind. But WHY is it a horrible grind? It's a horrible grind because that's how the developer made the game!
They made the game really grindy so that people would want to purchase ways to avoid it. From what I have read, this seems pretty common in F2P games, but I think that the RMAH in D3 is the beginnings of this invading B2P and P2P games.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
IMO, this statement is incorrect.
The guy with more time on a P2P game will have to do the same quests as me, the same mob grinding as me, and it will take him aproximately the same amount of hours as me.
If it takes 15 minutes to do a quest, it will take 15 minutes to do a quest.
No one can do it in less time.
It doens't matter if you only have an hour a week to play, or 40 hours a week, either way the quest takes 15 minutes for both players.
The guy with more time can't do the quest any faster than I can.
the guy with more time will max out when he plays the game a certain number of hours.
I will max out when I play the game aproximately the same number of hours.
We are completely equal, and the game treats us completely equal.
Our characters exist, and rack up xp and hours played, when they are logged on in the game world.
Exactly the same, whether I spend an hour playing, and he spends 40 hours a week playing, or vice a versa.
Why would I care what happens to my character or his, when we are not playing the game?
Look at it like a story. Let's take trhe bad movie Conan for an example. Conan becomes a slave, he escapes and kills some wolves, he runs into Toth Amon and kills his snake, then in the end, he battles the Boss Mob Thoth Amon and kills him.
In a pay to play game, you cannot skip any of that content.
You must kill the wolves, kill the snake, and then kill Thoth Amon.
It doesn't matter whether you do that in a week, or a year.
your character must go through the same story arc, kill the same mobs and it will take you roughly the same hours to do it.
How can the guy with more time get ahead of me?
He can't.
When he kills the wolves, he'll be the same level as me when I kill the wolves.
When he kills the snake, he'll be the same leve as me when I killthe snake.
When he kills Toth Amon he'll be the same level as me when I kill Thoth Amon.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
I think they see it, I just don't think most people care. Most people play games to have fun, fun is different for different people, so the people attracted to one game model probably don't care if other's think of it as pay to win, or they may not even care if they see it as pay to win.
There are several people who do care, though. Take for example Sony's Station Exchange servers. They're servers explicitly designed to allow for sanctioned RMT between players. If players wanted to be able to buy or sell gold, items, or characters, they had the option to play on one of the exchange servers. Yet if you actually look at the popularity of these servers, they're woefully underpopulated compared to the regular servers. So I don't necessarily believe that it's that most players don't care, but rather they will tolerate degrees of it if they have no other option, but will still moreso prefer an environment without RMT.
Honestly I think the best solution would for developers to embrace split servers rulesets in the manner that's been done regarding PvE and PvP rulesets. Split servers further between RMT and non RMT servers. Have a RMT AH, item mall, and all that other RMT related stuff confined to the RMT designated servers, and have the non-RMT servers kept clear of RMT trading or any item malls. It would be the best of both worlds, giving players the option to either play with RMT or completely segregated from it. The people who want to "pay to win" can, and the people who want to play to win can.
Honestly I think the best solution would for developers to embrace split servers rulesets in the manner that's been done regarding PvE and PvP rulesets. Split servers further between RMT and non RMT servers. Have a RMT AH, item mall, and all that other RMT related stuff confined to the RMT designated servers, and have the non-RMT servers kept clear of RMT trading or any item malls. It would be the best of both worlds, giving players the option to either play with RMT or completely segregated from it. The people who want to "pay to win" can, and the people who want to play to win can.
This is the ultimate "choice" for players, and I see no downsides to it.
Item mall server for the F2P crowd, non item mall server for the P2P crowd.
Both players get the game they want, the developer makes money from both players.
F2P is relatively new. And the market is getting saturated with so many F2P titles.
It would be an interesting development if a F2P game added a P2P server to increase revenue.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Look at the statement in green. You state it like it's a fact.
However, I percieve my character as measured in hours played, hours logged in to the game world. In that case, your statment is not correct.
You perecieve the "guy with more time" getting ahead of you, becuase of what happens in the real world.
A month goes by in the real world, and his character is higher level than yours so he's getting ahead of you.
My perception of the character is based on what happens in teh game world, not the real world.
It doesn't matter to me if a week, a month, or a year goes by in the real world. The only thing that affects the character is what happens in teh game world.
The only way you could "get ahead of me" is by skipping content. If I have to do a quest to make a level, or kill a mob, and you don't.
Basically you're saying everyone must percieve the character progression the way you do, or they are not rational.
I don't find you irrational.
I can see how you might feel like someone is "getting ahead of you" because you take into account the time passing in the real world.
I understand it, I find it rational, but I don't feel that way about the characters in the game world.
How you perceive character progression is not a fact.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Look at the statement in green. You state it like it's a fact.
However, I percieve my character as measured in hours played, hours logged in to the game world. In that case, your statment is not correct.
You perecieve the "guy with more time" getting ahead of you, becuase of what happens in the real world.
A month goes by in the real world, and his character is higher level than yours so he's getting ahead of you.
My perception of the character is based on what happens in teh game world, not the real world.
It doesn't matter to me if a week, a month, or a year goes by in the real world. The only thing that affects the character is what happens in teh game world.
The only way you could "get ahead of me" is by skipping content. If I have to do a quest to make a level, or kill a mob, and you don't.
Basically you're saying everyone must percieve the character progression the way you do, or they are not rational.
I don't find you irrational.
I can see how you might feel like someone is "getting ahead of you" because you take into account the time passing in the real world.
I understand it, I find it rational, but I don't feel that way about the characters in the game world.
How you perceive character progression is not a fact.
It's subjective.
I think what he means is the guy with more time is playing the game more, therefore he is in the game world more and he will get epeenz before you will.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Me, too. I'm shocked though, at the number of people that didn't see what he was doing.
Much like they don't see what P2W or pay to skip or whatever you want to call them games are doing .
Creslin, when someone buys an adventure pack or additional zone, how are they bypassing content? And buying cosmetic items... how does that go again? I mean, you're not even listen to yourself anyomore and just regurgitating talking points that have long since been shot down.
Your ONE gripe is that someone is going to use an XP potion and get ePeenz faster than you, and you really need to get over that. The guy with more time will get ePeenz faster than you. The guy with more skill will, also. The same with the guy with more firends, the guy with the spreadsheet and the guy with the walkthroughs/guides.
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles,
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Look at the statement in green. You state it like it's a fact.
However, I percieve my character as measured in hours played, hours logged in to the game world. In that case, your statment is not correct.
You perecieve the "guy with more time" getting ahead of you, becuase of what happens in the real world.
A month goes by in the real world, and his character is higher level than yours so he's getting ahead of you.
My perception of the character is based on what happens in teh game world, not the real world.
It doesn't matter to me if a week, a month, or a year goes by in the real world. The only thing that affects the character is what happens in teh game world.
The only way you could "get ahead of me" is by skipping content. If I have to do a quest to make a level, or kill a mob, and you don't.
Basically you're saying everyone must percieve the character progression the way you do, or they are not rational.
I don't find you irrational.
I can see how you might feel like someone is "getting ahead of you" because you take into account the time passing in the real world.
I understand it, I find it rational, but I don't feel that way about the characters in the game world.
How you perceive character progression is not a fact.
It's subjective.
I think what he means is the guy with more time is playing the game more, therefore he is in the game world more and he will get epeenz before you will.
Venge
I know.
IMO, he will not get epeenz before I will.
We will both get epeenz at the same amout of hours played in the game.
I don't measure my character by how many real life days and weeks go by.
I measure my character, and anyone elses, by how many hours logged in to the game world.
When I have a 40 hour character, it will be roughly the same as his 40 hour character.
When I have a 400 hour character, it will be roughly the same as his 400 hour character.
Why would I care what happens to his character when I'm not logged in to the game?
My character exists in the game world when I'm logged on.
What if I play for an hour, then don't play for a year?
I have an hour old character, not a year old character.
Loktofeit feels like he has a year old character.
From my perspective, Loktofeit cannot get ahead of me in a P2P game. It's not possible, because I can do the same things in an hour of game play he can.
The fact that he didn't play teh game for a year, or I didnt' play the game for a year, is not relevant to me.
Only hours logged in counts.
And we will all be roughly the same when we have the same hours logged in.
I compare one hour old characters to one hour old characters.
I compare 400 hour old characters to 400 hour old characters.
I don't compare one year old real time characters, to 400 hours in the game characters.
I don't count the time that goes by when the character is not logged in to the server.
lokotofeit compares a character that is a real world year old, but only logged in the game for an hour, to a character that is a week old, but logged in for 40 hours.
he feels the real world year old character, even though only one game hour old, should be higher level, or the same, or something, as the character that is 40 game hours old.
I don't feel that way. I compare game hours to game hours.
Using the poll's rationale, if you buy Supreme you get to skip all the grindy stuff you hate. But the game is built with a whole lot of grindy stuff to start with, so for a premium price, you get much less of what you want than what a "Hardcore" player gets for a third of the price.
For someone who hates pay to win games, this poll is indeed a surprise.
If there's any doubt, I hate the idea, how pay to win can you get? Pay the most and you get to pound on the poor suckers who have to grind through the game. Worst idea in years...
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Are you kidding me? This is exactly how F2P games work! Sure you can play for free, but with some disadvantage compared to paying customers. To get rid of this disadvantage, you must use the Item Mall to buy XP boosts, more inventory space or whatnot or pay for a "premium subsciption".
Exact same thing. You have to pay to get rid of some hindrance.
I don't like it. No.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
yes! i will pay $150 to not play the game i just payed $150 to play. not. no thanks. subscription tiers make some sort of sense, but this is almost beyond comprehension.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
If people would honestly be willing to pay more to skip directly to the end of the game, that is clearly a sign of terrible game design. Isn't the whole point of an RPG to ENJOY character progression? If the entire game is just a painful time sink, and the only enjoyable part comes after you reach end game, why should anyone bother playing it in the first place? Cash shop purchases in MMOs should be used to enhance an already enjoyable game, not just as a method for a few rich players to gain instant bragging rights over everybody else.
No no no this is a very bad idea. Making it so your product is seen as a tiered product would make people feel like it comes off as elitist. Basically your telling me I have to pay more for what I would of got if the game just rolled out with a fixed price for all, no not going to get my interest. So we have to pay more for no grinding, this is really a nutshell of an idea. Pretty much borderline suicide of the company, if any game company ever did something like this.
You can't market a game this way, basically your saying to the people. Hey you poor people since your poor and you want to play our game we will make it so you can buy it but you have to put more time into the game to get to where you wanna go. It just doesn't make sense.
And for those people who voted good idea or neutral, well those people are just not thinking or have not been around the game scene very long, it's a naive thing to vote yes.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
Even if in jest, the idea might not be as far off from realistic as you might suppose. The pay to win is a one time fee, not recurring. The pay to win is clearly exposed so there's no bait and switch as found in many P2W games. The process circumvents third party RMTs so it generates revenue for the game not for hackers.
As it is now people pay hundreds, even thousands for account purchases. There are also many who belly up to the cash shop figuring that their time is more valuable than the few bucks (or many bucks later on) spent on upgrades.
Is this fictional proposal really any worse than logging into a game and being swamped with advertising selling Uber Sword of Greatness for $75.00 or one hour 4x XP potions for $20.00 each or paying $6.00 to rent a mount for a month?
A hundred bucks extra up front is chump change compared to what is spent in P2W and third party RMTs.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
One of the worst ideas I have ever heard or read. Why not sell I WIN button for 200 bucks then? I'm starting to feel old because I cannot understand new generation of MMO players anymore. Instant gratification seems to be all they want.
It is. And there are games who cater to that crowd. Pick one and look at the cash shop. People buy that stuff and in sufficient quantities to keep the games in operation.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
One of the worst ideas I have ever heard or read. Why not sell I WIN button for 200 bucks then? I'm starting to feel old because I cannot understand new generation of MMO players anymore. Instant gratification seems to be all they want.
Nope. You are starting to feel old becuase you're having trouble reading...or chose ignorance by not reading the forum....or becuase you're losing your ability to sense satire, if you ever had it. Anyway, in other words, the OP was JOKING!
There's been a lot of discussion about what's the better business model, P2P, B2P, or F2P. Well I think I just thought of something that may be better than all of them..listen to this.
I call the model "segmented B2P." The idea is that you sell different "editions" of the game for different prices to different people, based on what they want out of the game. The basic premise is that the game will be designed with a lot of repetitive (grindy) stuff that only really hardcore people will enjoy, but you give players the option to bypass some of this grindy content by spending more on the game when they buy it. Here's a sample breakdown of how this would work:
Hardcore edition $40 - In this edition you have to grind through all of the game, but you're compensated with a lower price. It's mainly meant to appeal to hardcore people.
Basic edition $60 - In this edition, you get to skip some of the grind, you basically start 25% through the game, but you still have to do a lot of the grind.
Special edition $80 - In this edition, you get to skip more of the grind, now you start at 50% through the game.
Elite edition $100 - In this edition, you skip most of the grind, you start at 75% through the game.
SUPREME edition $150 - In this edition, you get to skip ALL of the grind, you start at the end of the game.
What do you think of this idea?
I haven't read any of the other replies to this yet but I bet others have said what I'm going to say.
You are suggesting that people who pay more will get less game to play. Look at what you said:
$40--they have the whole game to play through
$60--they have 25% less game to play
$150--they have 75% less game to play
Um...huh?
Why not a $200 option and they start at max level with all the best equipment? Then they could just log in once, look at their character, and log back out again untill the first expansion releases.
Or, hey, how about a $300 option and they start with all character slots filled with maxed out characters so they don't have to worry about playing an alt.
And they could also have the Ultra Delux $400 option. With the Ultra Delux plan you don't even have to load the game on your computer! Simply make your payment and you will be sent an e-mail stating YOU WIN! And that's it and you can go back to looking for your next game.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
Ah, ok.
See, this is what I get for not reading the thread before replying.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
Even if in jest, the idea might not be as far off from realistic as you might suppose. The pay to win is a one time fee, not recurring. The pay to win is clearly exposed so there's no bait and switch as found in many P2W games. The process circumvents third party RMTs so it generates revenue for the game not for hackers.
As it is now people pay hundreds, even thousands for account purchases. There are also many who belly up to the cash shop figuring that their time is more valuable than the few bucks (or many bucks later on) spent on upgrades.
Is this fictional proposal really any worse than logging into a game and being swamped with advertising selling Uber Sword of Greatness for $75.00 or one hour 4x XP potions for $20.00 each or paying $6.00 to rent a mount for a month?
A hundred bucks extra up front is chump change compared to what is spent in P2W and third party RMTs.
Nope, I don't think this proposal is worse than that at all and that's kind of scary. All this proposal does is honestly tell you what you're getting with a P2W game up front, and lo and behold, most people (80%) hate it.
I bet that if all those people who spent $100's of dollars on P2W gams over a few months would have known up front that this game would cost them $300 or whatever, they never would have bought it. It is, as you say, bait and switch. And that's the only reason (IMO) that the P2W business model works.
Comments
This is cruel and unusual marketing. I like it and will laugh at fat people when this starts happening.
Edit: Fat as in fat walleted, I laugh at fat people anyway. They're funny and have the coolest farts.
Chappelle apparently filmed his episode before the UK Wife Swap aired, but yeah they beat him to it, at least in the UK.
Anyway, my point was that the post is only recognizable as satire if it's more ridiculous than the other threads around here. I'm not so sure.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I wouldn't say my or your points have really been shot down...just different points of views. I post what I think, you and others post what you think...neither can be proven right or wrong, and the wheel turns on. Even though we go around in circles, I think this whole argument has been beneficial to me, because it helped me understand exactly WHY P2W upsets me so much.
When I first heard about RMAH in Diablo3 I was really annoyed, but I couldn't exactly pinpoint why. Now I realize that my real gripe isn't that people are leveling "faster" than me...it's the whole idea of coming out with a game and then making people PAY to skip content. Doesn't this seem like a messed up business model to you? I think it just encourages devs to make games with tons of boring content that no one but the really hardcore want to do, so they can charge people to skip it.
It just seems like a con to me, and so backwards. Get people hooked on a game by making the beginning interesting...put a huge fairly boring grind in the middle or make farming items exceedingly painful, and then tell players that they can skip the horrible grind if they just cough up some more dough. It seriously sounds like the same tactic that drug dealers use.
I normally expect to get MORE content when I spend money. Not just get the privilege to skip it.
When this stuff was only in F2P games it didn't bother me because it was "contained," and hey, you're playing for free, someone has to subsidize your experience. But now it's starting to invade B2P games as well and my fear is that it will become a standard "feature" of many premium video games and what my generation used to call "cheat codes" will now be packaged products for any willing gamer to purchase. Doesn't this seem a little f@#ked up to you?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
So, when you state something as fact, and you are given data to prove that is not true, and you cannot provide data to supoport your statement, your take on that is basically that no matter what facts are presented to counter your argument and no matter how you can provide no facts to support your argument, you are going to contend that you are still correct because these are just different views.
That makes it really hard to have any kind of rational discussion with you.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What am I stating as a fact and what data are you providing proving it's untrue? The only thing I'm stating is that P2W (or paying to skip content, whatever you want to call it) games exist, and that it seems like this concept could be invading P2P and B2P games. Are you denying this is true?
The RMAH in Diablo 3 will let you buy items that you would have otherwise had to play the game to get...sounds like paying to skip content to me. Blizzard even gives the argument "some people have more money than time" to justify this. I drew a parallel to "cheats" in single player games that give you items and the new trend of charging people real money for items. I don't see how this is far-fetched. In DOOM 2 I could have typed IDFKA and got all the weapons, now in BFH I have to pay some dough to get weapons...sounds pretty similar to me.
I'm not an expert on P2W games, because I obviously dislike them so I don't really play them. I'm not going to be able to give you specific examples of games with P2W when you ask for it without googling it. And even then, I won't have the base of knowledge about any of these games that someone who actually plays them would have. This doesn't change the fact that I know they exist.
Also, many of my arguments are just responses to other arguments. For example, many P2W defenders argue that things like exp potions or items for sale in the cash shop are good things because trying to acheive exp or items in the game through normal means is terrible because it's such a horrible grind. But WHY is it a horrible grind? It's a horrible grind because that's how the developer made the game!
They made the game really grindy so that people would want to purchase ways to avoid it. From what I have read, this seems pretty common in F2P games, but I think that the RMAH in D3 is the beginnings of this invading B2P and P2P games.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
IMO, this statement is incorrect.
The guy with more time on a P2P game will have to do the same quests as me, the same mob grinding as me, and it will take him aproximately the same amount of hours as me.
If it takes 15 minutes to do a quest, it will take 15 minutes to do a quest.
No one can do it in less time.
It doens't matter if you only have an hour a week to play, or 40 hours a week, either way the quest takes 15 minutes for both players.
The guy with more time can't do the quest any faster than I can.
the guy with more time will max out when he plays the game a certain number of hours.
I will max out when I play the game aproximately the same number of hours.
We are completely equal, and the game treats us completely equal.
Our characters exist, and rack up xp and hours played, when they are logged on in the game world.
Exactly the same, whether I spend an hour playing, and he spends 40 hours a week playing, or vice a versa.
Why would I care what happens to my character or his, when we are not playing the game?
Look at it like a story. Let's take trhe bad movie Conan for an example. Conan becomes a slave, he escapes and kills some wolves, he runs into Toth Amon and kills his snake, then in the end, he battles the Boss Mob Thoth Amon and kills him.
In a pay to play game, you cannot skip any of that content.
You must kill the wolves, kill the snake, and then kill Thoth Amon.
It doesn't matter whether you do that in a week, or a year.
your character must go through the same story arc, kill the same mobs and it will take you roughly the same hours to do it.
How can the guy with more time get ahead of me?
He can't.
When he kills the wolves, he'll be the same level as me when I kill the wolves.
When he kills the snake, he'll be the same leve as me when I killthe snake.
When he kills Toth Amon he'll be the same level as me when I kill Thoth Amon.
There are several people who do care, though. Take for example Sony's Station Exchange servers. They're servers explicitly designed to allow for sanctioned RMT between players. If players wanted to be able to buy or sell gold, items, or characters, they had the option to play on one of the exchange servers. Yet if you actually look at the popularity of these servers, they're woefully underpopulated compared to the regular servers. So I don't necessarily believe that it's that most players don't care, but rather they will tolerate degrees of it if they have no other option, but will still moreso prefer an environment without RMT.
Honestly I think the best solution would for developers to embrace split servers rulesets in the manner that's been done regarding PvE and PvP rulesets. Split servers further between RMT and non RMT servers. Have a RMT AH, item mall, and all that other RMT related stuff confined to the RMT designated servers, and have the non-RMT servers kept clear of RMT trading or any item malls. It would be the best of both worlds, giving players the option to either play with RMT or completely segregated from it. The people who want to "pay to win" can, and the people who want to play to win can.
This is the ultimate "choice" for players, and I see no downsides to it.
Item mall server for the F2P crowd, non item mall server for the P2P crowd.
Both players get the game they want, the developer makes money from both players.
F2P is relatively new. And the market is getting saturated with so many F2P titles.
It would be an interesting development if a F2P game added a P2P server to increase revenue.
I think this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Look at the statement in green. You state it like it's a fact.
However, I percieve my character as measured in hours played, hours logged in to the game world. In that case, your statment is not correct.
You perecieve the "guy with more time" getting ahead of you, becuase of what happens in the real world.
A month goes by in the real world, and his character is higher level than yours so he's getting ahead of you.
My perception of the character is based on what happens in teh game world, not the real world.
It doesn't matter to me if a week, a month, or a year goes by in the real world. The only thing that affects the character is what happens in teh game world.
The only way you could "get ahead of me" is by skipping content. If I have to do a quest to make a level, or kill a mob, and you don't.
Basically you're saying everyone must percieve the character progression the way you do, or they are not rational.
I don't find you irrational.
I can see how you might feel like someone is "getting ahead of you" because you take into account the time passing in the real world.
I understand it, I find it rational, but I don't feel that way about the characters in the game world.
How you perceive character progression is not a fact.
It's subjective.
I think what he means is the guy with more time is playing the game more, therefore he is in the game world more and he will get epeenz before you will.
Venge
I know.
IMO, he will not get epeenz before I will.
We will both get epeenz at the same amout of hours played in the game.
I don't measure my character by how many real life days and weeks go by.
I measure my character, and anyone elses, by how many hours logged in to the game world.
When I have a 40 hour character, it will be roughly the same as his 40 hour character.
When I have a 400 hour character, it will be roughly the same as his 400 hour character.
Why would I care what happens to his character when I'm not logged in to the game?
My character exists in the game world when I'm logged on.
What if I play for an hour, then don't play for a year?
I have an hour old character, not a year old character.
Loktofeit feels like he has a year old character.
From my perspective, Loktofeit cannot get ahead of me in a P2P game. It's not possible, because I can do the same things in an hour of game play he can.
The fact that he didn't play teh game for a year, or I didnt' play the game for a year, is not relevant to me.
Only hours logged in counts.
And we will all be roughly the same when we have the same hours logged in.
I compare one hour old characters to one hour old characters.
I compare 400 hour old characters to 400 hour old characters.
I don't compare one year old real time characters, to 400 hours in the game characters.
I don't count the time that goes by when the character is not logged in to the server.
lokotofeit compares a character that is a real world year old, but only logged in the game for an hour, to a character that is a week old, but logged in for 40 hours.
he feels the real world year old character, even though only one game hour old, should be higher level, or the same, or something, as the character that is 40 game hours old.
I don't feel that way. I compare game hours to game hours.
Using the poll's rationale, if you buy Supreme you get to skip all the grindy stuff you hate. But the game is built with a whole lot of grindy stuff to start with, so for a premium price, you get much less of what you want than what a "Hardcore" player gets for a third of the price.
I hated it.
For someone who hates pay to win games, this poll is indeed a surprise.
If there's any doubt, I hate the idea, how pay to win can you get? Pay the most and you get to pound on the poor suckers who have to grind through the game. Worst idea in years...
Waiting for Guild Wars 2, and maybe SWTOR until that time...
Are you kidding me? This is exactly how F2P games work! Sure you can play for free, but with some disadvantage compared to paying customers. To get rid of this disadvantage, you must use the Item Mall to buy XP boosts, more inventory space or whatnot or pay for a "premium subsciption".
Exact same thing. You have to pay to get rid of some hindrance.
I don't like it. No.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
yes! i will pay $150 to not play the game i just payed $150 to play. not. no thanks. subscription tiers make some sort of sense, but this is almost beyond comprehension.
Ooookay well many people have already realized this, but if you haven't this whole poll was basically satire in order to illustrate a point.
The business model I presented in the poll is absolutely horrible, and as I expected the majority of respondants hated it. But, as some of you realize, the scenario I present is exactly what many P2W games do. They give you an alternative of spending tons of hours in a repetitive grind or PAYING to skip the content that is deliberately made to be extremely dull.
The only difference between P2W games and the scenario in the poll is that the poll basically frontloaded all of the costs and made it very obvious what was happening. Many P2W games on the other hand are trickier and you may not realize what's happening until you're already knee-deep in it.
So if anyone wonders why I don't like P2W games...this is why.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
If people would honestly be willing to pay more to skip directly to the end of the game, that is clearly a sign of terrible game design. Isn't the whole point of an RPG to ENJOY character progression? If the entire game is just a painful time sink, and the only enjoyable part comes after you reach end game, why should anyone bother playing it in the first place? Cash shop purchases in MMOs should be used to enhance an already enjoyable game, not just as a method for a few rich players to gain instant bragging rights over everybody else.
No no no this is a very bad idea. Making it so your product is seen as a tiered product would make people feel like it comes off as elitist. Basically your telling me I have to pay more for what I would of got if the game just rolled out with a fixed price for all, no not going to get my interest. So we have to pay more for no grinding, this is really a nutshell of an idea. Pretty much borderline suicide of the company, if any game company ever did something like this.
You can't market a game this way, basically your saying to the people. Hey you poor people since your poor and you want to play our game we will make it so you can buy it but you have to put more time into the game to get to where you wanna go. It just doesn't make sense.
And for those people who voted good idea or neutral, well those people are just not thinking or have not been around the game scene very long, it's a naive thing to vote yes.
Even if in jest, the idea might not be as far off from realistic as you might suppose. The pay to win is a one time fee, not recurring. The pay to win is clearly exposed so there's no bait and switch as found in many P2W games. The process circumvents third party RMTs so it generates revenue for the game not for hackers.
As it is now people pay hundreds, even thousands for account purchases. There are also many who belly up to the cash shop figuring that their time is more valuable than the few bucks (or many bucks later on) spent on upgrades.
Is this fictional proposal really any worse than logging into a game and being swamped with advertising selling Uber Sword of Greatness for $75.00 or one hour 4x XP potions for $20.00 each or paying $6.00 to rent a mount for a month?
A hundred bucks extra up front is chump change compared to what is spent in P2W and third party RMTs.
It is. And there are games who cater to that crowd. Pick one and look at the cash shop. People buy that stuff and in sufficient quantities to keep the games in operation.
Nope. You are starting to feel old becuase you're having trouble reading...or chose ignorance by not reading the forum....or becuase you're losing your ability to sense satire, if you ever had it. Anyway, in other words, the OP was JOKING!
I haven't read any of the other replies to this yet but I bet others have said what I'm going to say.
You are suggesting that people who pay more will get less game to play. Look at what you said:
$40--they have the whole game to play through
$60--they have 25% less game to play
$150--they have 75% less game to play
Um...huh?
Why not a $200 option and they start at max level with all the best equipment? Then they could just log in once, look at their character, and log back out again untill the first expansion releases.
Or, hey, how about a $300 option and they start with all character slots filled with maxed out characters so they don't have to worry about playing an alt.
And they could also have the Ultra Delux $400 option. With the Ultra Delux plan you don't even have to load the game on your computer! Simply make your payment and you will be sent an e-mail stating YOU WIN! And that's it and you can go back to looking for your next game.
Ah, ok.
See, this is what I get for not reading the thread before replying.
Nope, I don't think this proposal is worse than that at all and that's kind of scary. All this proposal does is honestly tell you what you're getting with a P2W game up front, and lo and behold, most people (80%) hate it.
I bet that if all those people who spent $100's of dollars on P2W gams over a few months would have known up front that this game would cost them $300 or whatever, they never would have bought it. It is, as you say, bait and switch. And that's the only reason (IMO) that the P2W business model works.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?