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How does a NON-Trinity game works?
Kuaidam
Member Posts: 183
So, it's 12:52am and I just went through all 45 replies in 5 pages.
Thanks a lot to all of you who took the time to bring some light into this for me.
My apologies to those who thought I was trying to troll or be an ass or whatever. I wasn't. I just wrote the thread in a hurry cause I was about to leave to work. That's why some questions (now that I re-read them) seem pretty dumb.
ANYWAY!
Just to get it out of the way, I first played an MMO in early 2004. Final Fantasy XI. I bought it to start learning how to play MMOs cause a friend told me that there was going to be a Warcraft RPG (figures -_-). Although WoW was my main game for the past 7 years, I've also peaked into other games like CoX, EVE, Aion, Global Agenda, Guild Wars, in no particular order.
I now understand a lot better how a game works without the rigid Trinity design. The examples given through Guild Wars and City of Villains/Heroes helped a lot. I played both games, but not nearly enough and years ago when I was still learning how to play MMOs.
What I understand better now is how complex MMOs can be. What made me kill my sub to WoW this year was that I was sick of the DPS syndrome, where what little strategy could be applied to WoW's dungeons, died as soon as the DPS could AoE burn through EVERYTHING, including bosses. I held to the game as long as I could, hoping for this to change, but this year I said ENOUGH!. I need more.
SO! I want to try a game like this. Any friendly suggestion for a guy who has spend the last 7 years of his life trying to become the best damm ~T~A~N~K~ in the world?
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I was born into the MMO world durimg the prime of the Trinity Class system, meaning Tank - DPS - Healing.
To me, this system makes all the sense in the world, but to others, it is completely useless.
I want to understand how does a MMO work without this system.
So, here are my questions:
If not Tank - DPS - Healing, how do you sort character classes?
What is the enemy AI programed to do in combat?
How is a party size organized?
How do you know what class is needed for what event?
How do raids work?
What are gear stats and restrictions like?
What is the point in having character classes at all if no specific role is needed?
I'll come up with other questions tonight when i come back from work.
Please feel free to add any of the important stuff i'm leaving out that I don't know off.
Comments
I don't get what you're asking.
On the one hand you're asking what a non-trinity game would look like, and on the other hand you are naming things that are inherent with trinity models.
It is kind of like asking how to get to space without a rocket.
The rocket and space are inherently linked, so you're asking how to get to space by using something that isn't a rocket, that's a rather unfair question.
If you acknowledge that there are games that don't take place in space at all, then your question would be honest.
If not Tank - DPS - Healing, how do you sort character classes?
Classes are sorted in a similar way, but there are different "roles". You might still have a buffer, or a nuker, or a dot-er. This is all dependant on the mechanics of the game and what it allows
What is the enemy AI programed to do in combat?
Varies with game mechanics. AI might be completely random and just hit whoever, or it might go after who does the most dmg. Maybe it hits everyone at once.
How is a party size organized?
uh... what? Are you talking about the typical WoW style 5 man setup of 1 Tank, 3 DPS, 1 Healer? If so... just throw that out the window. You just put classes together based on need or want, or you just group with your friends regardless.
How do you know what class is needed for what event?
Broaden your personal definition of "class" and you will realize why this question has no relevance.
How do raids work?
Go to a place, beat stuff up, sort loot, done. Again, game mechanics will determine how things actually work.
What are gear stats and restrictions like?
Same theory as Trinity... just different stats
What is the point in having character classes at all if no specific role is needed?
Honestly, because people have no imagination and need a little guidance. Or it could just be a different definiton of "class". Take pre-nge SWG. You could say that a pistoleer was a class (guy who uses blaster pistols) or a brawler was a class (guy who punches stuff to death). But most said that there were no classes because you could combine pistoleer with brawler and become a smuggler... Class is a very broad term and you are thinking about it too narrowly.
It makes sense that you are thinking about this the way you are because you haven't experienced anything else. My advice, go try out a "classless" game and see what it's like. Once you get your hands on, you'll understand it.
What is the point of class restrictions even if a specific role is needed?
You could easily solve this with a specc instead. The reason most games have classes is a balancing issue, nothing else.
It is very hard to balance a game where people pick thier skills themselves and totally impossible in a game where you have all skills (except for prople that have maxed out every skill if that even is possible).
It also makes it easier for many players to roleplay.
When any class can reasonably survive without the help of other classes (as in solo play or a team with only 1 class-type) then the game has no real trinity.
GW2's dodge/block/attack combat system breaks the trinity by giving every player the simple means to defend themselves.
SWTOR's class designs bend the trinity from a straight triangle to something resembling a modern art sculpture to the point where it doesn't seem like the trinity is there, but you'll probably still want somebody to tank and heal for the tough encounters. Thankfully, they gave many DPS classes the ability to do those tasks.
Not as long as you still need a dedicated healer and a tank to do any dungeon/instance or similar.
Taunts are typical trinity mechanics, in non trinity games the mobs usually attack the foe that is easiest to kill , the nearest or the one that makes most damage.
A mage that can block attacks with a magic wall of ice, then dodge around distracting the mob while the party attacks is something that breaks the typical trinity.
We still have people who can heal everyone, but in GW2 the players are given the ability to heal themselves. Warriors can use shields to block a stream of fire from a fire breathing lizzard so I'm assuming certain other classes will have methods to defend themselves or others from attacks as well.
The non-trinity game works by giving everyone the ability to anything, but restricts them to one or two general types at a time. Meaning I can go into a group and defend everyone, while healing them, while nuking the boss. At least thats how I'm assuming GW2 would work.
U are either a troll or very ignorant, but anyhow i will answer ur questions, cause it only takes 10 seconds per question to come up with an answer.
If not Tank - DPS - Healing, how do you sort character classes?
U sort classes by gameplay, u sort them by making every class unique in its own way which is highly superior to the ancient trinity,no class is confined to be either 1 of the 3, instead every class is made so unique that ur gameplay feels different with each class.
Plus on that u can change weapons on the fly so in essence one class is actually 5 different classes(or less depending how many weapons u can use) so 8x5=30 u basically have 30 "classes", "combinations". Call it however u want but it is the evolution of trinity, its like comparing steam engine with rocket engine, or with scramjet engine, or comparing horses with ion engines (which do exist in real world and are working and are being used to test new ways of spacetravel check Hall Effect Thruster or VASIMR).
What is the enemy AI programed to do in combat?
The enemy AI is programmed to actually WORK u know unlike in every other game lol. In its basic form the AI attacks in a composite order: it attacks the closest enemy, and it attacks the weakest enemy and/or enemy dealing highest dmg. So if u think about the AI is actually doing what it should be doing and using complex almost human like thinking algorithms.
If the mob in question is ranged it will seek weak caster cloth equipped players to dmg, or attack closest enemy depending on the circumstances, if the mob in question is melee it will attack closest enemy to it, and with that u can still use plate classes to tank by placing urself as a heavy armor classes between the mob and squishy classes and blocking the attack (in case the game is action oriented). or the melee class can run through player group searching for the weakest/highest dmg dealing class and attack it.
P.S. the ai in trinity games is stupid beyond recognition it only has a table in it, a database which stores info about aggro and attacks player with highest agro which is so simple a monkey could think of it and design and write it.
How is a party size organized?
Its organized in one of the most logical ways which are not artifical and forced like in trinity games. The most common and easiest way would be to make the party side as big as the number of classes avaiable, so if u got 8 classes u got 8 party slots, so that in perfect conditions u could get every class.
If not like that it can be a randomly chosen number of places by the developers in contrast to their estimation of the challenge of mobs.
How do you know what class is needed for what event?
Why would u want to know that, u dont need to know that, its irrelevant every class is as needed and as important as any other class, with some classes having unique skills perks or gameplay features which u would want to use for a specific encounter to perform and finish it faster than the optimal ammount of time.
P.S. this is another thing which is unnatural and is forced in holy trinity and is completely ridiculous and undeed(forcing people to choose exactly one class and none other base on dmg heal tank is really something man, it removes the creativity and diversity of individual classes.
How do raids work?
A. they dont in they are non-existant or
B. they do and the encounters and bosses are complex but easy to understand and hard to master + more interesting + better designed + not generic +require thinking + require special gameplay and skill elements from a specific class or a combination of all above from every class and can easily be organized and capped as : max number of classesx2 or x3 or x4 and there u have the number of people in a raid.
What are gear stats and restrictions like?
A. they are non-existant so basically its a game that doesnt discriminate players, and actually reduces grind which we all know is western audiance's bane. if ure game is good enough and ure confident enough that people wont desert it and will stay after the first month or few months then u dont need silly things like this which are just tricks to take ur money and make u stay longer cause the game lacks content.
B. they exist but they are meaningfull and well made, and actually take into account the differences between each class, and are more fair better made, and in the end impress u as a gamer and make u think more highly of the game developer of the mmo ure playing.
What is the point in having character classes at all if no specific role is needed?
This question is so wrong and utterly impossible that i dont even know how to explain it to u so u would understand let me try:
EVERY CLASS is a role for itself every class is DPS+its own UNIQUE gameplay and set of skills abilities and perks and etc.
so u remove the stupid 3 roles which are artifically induced and are just a torn in the eye of fluid gameplay, and u just make every class unique and fun to play and different that every other, in other words u actually use ur brain as a developer and u actually make content which is intersting complex easy to play and understand, hard to master, and does not insult the intelligence of gamers world wide by making em think that without trinity, THE MMO apocalypse is nigh and that no mmo can function without those silly restrictions and gazzilion generic classes within a heal dps or tank archetype.
10 seconds to formulate an answer but much more to write it down, anyway if this doesnt mean anything to u and if u still think that without trinity an mmo cannot work, than if ure not a troll i would advise u to seek medical help and scan ur head for concussions
Well, that is one way off solving it. Another one is to let people take care of themselves basically even if some buffs and emergency heals will help the survival of the group.
That was uncalled for. If you don't know and don't ask you wont know. Some people here have really just played Wow andbeing rude wont sway any to your cause.
If you have a system set up to where every character, regardless of profession, can kill things as well as defend/heal themselves equally well, you have no need for a trinity system. In fact, you could argue that each character is a "mini-trinity" in and of themselves. That way, you don't HAVE to have separate people create the role specific trinity. You can if you want to but you don't have to. With the non-trinity system (using mechanics like dodge, roll, self-heal, etc.), you could have 5 Rangers basically specced out the same who accomplish a task just as easily and well as, say, 1 Warrior, 1 Ranger, 1 Mage, 1 Elementalist, and 1 Rogue. That makes it easier to group up at the spur of the moment (say in a Dynamic Event system) and you don't have to hang around for an hour waiting for a tank or healer.
I think it will also work well because it will essentially force people to rely on themselves while helping others, rather than relying on others while they're trying to help others. In this way, each character is responsible for him or herself while working as a team with others. I personally can't think of a better way to run a team.
Party size and raids will just be a matter of how each individual team decide to tackle that issue. It makes it very open to experimentation.
Since each person can kill/defend/heal on their own, the need for the "holy trinity" is negated.
You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???
Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!
Set up a system like Asheron's Call, where there are no classes and you choose the skills you want. So if you want to be able to take hits, deal damage, and heal, you choose melee and magic defense, a weapon skill or war magic, and life magic or whatever the med kit skill was called and you're good to go.
It works, but like I said earlier is it a balancing issue. You will need to balance every single skill instead of every class and that is more work, a lot more if you are PvP focused.
It is probably the best way to handle things for the players since it gives us most choices (and you can have some pre created templates for the players who don't like to choose) but for the devs it isn't.
To simply answer the OP's question, when there's no class/skill restrictions, people make their own trinity, but it feels like "not forced" even tho it kind of is... It just may not feel like it, since the players can choose the skills they apply to the combined effort.
Non-trinity games (freeform classes) still need the trinity, tank - dps - healer/support, but peoples minds tend to be simple when classes and skills are preset, even tho in freeform games they tend to steer to those classes by themselves by "need" alone, but in the freeform case people seem to ignore the fact that they're still on the path of the holy trinity, because they were able to choose the skills they have, eithe by choise or necessity.
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Well i have played a game with no classes and let me tell you, it was the best experience i ever had because it was done right.
in this game you couldnt pick every skill there was, you had points to spend on skills you want, so for example say i have 50 points to spend and i want sword skill that cost 10 points now i want Melee Defense that cost 12 points i want healing ( so i dont need a healer i can combat heal myself with healing kits ) that cost 8 points. i want to move sword up to specialization so it increases the skill that cost 8 points and so on till my 50 are gone. then every 5 levels we got another point so we could save them up and get other skills later.
then the best part is when you kill stuff you get XP that saves up and you spend it yourself leveling up the skills you want to level up.
Gear was nice to have but it wasnt all powerfull look at me im super epic i own all. this was more a skill based game. gear was bonus but didnt make you good. and anybody could wear anything. if u wanted to be a sword wielding fireball throwing robe wearing guy with spec running, go for it.
The gear was also random loot so you had the endless possible stats on anything you looted. there was no going online and finding the boss that drops the sword of doom then farming him for 3 weeks to make sure everybody gets one. there wasnt a " best " item it was all random and there could allways be somthing better out there.
No raids but there was awsome epic quest that took full partys back in the days. and what was fun was later trying to do those quest with only a hand full of people because that made it way more challengeing. you could even try it solo if you want, and at higher level it was possible because you didnt need a ( healer, dps, tank ) you only needed to be a skilled player.
Its not uncalled for, and u need to be aware of some basic things even if u dont know or u dont ask.
I dont have a cause and i dont want or need anyone swaying to my cause(if i had one but i dont).
in my 11 years of gaming ive played, heard, read, seen, encountered all types of people, and the one thing every one of them has in common is that if they are in active denial, and do not even want to think about change or anything similar to that matter, or try to think or understand of something better/worse/equal that they're used too the only way to teach them, to explain to them to enlighten them is to be BLATANT, obvious, open, intrusive, loud, without compassion or over-emotion, attacking and counter-writing to their statements, using mild flame to spark their anger, interest, imagination, creativity, and force them to think for themselves, by themselves and to think without influence that could cloud their judgement.
Its a thin line between anger and understanding, u generally feel the need to question something and double check and think about it, once someone shakes ur understanding of it and attacks and angers u in a way which opens ur eyes and lets and makes u understand something u previously thought was impossible or not understable. Its called reverse-psychology for a reason.
Are you Doctor House?
I second that. The "holy trinity" is an instrinsic part of combat. The only question is what form it will actually take. You can have individual skills molded into archtype characters or you can go freeform and allow multiple people to mix and match the pieces of the trinity and you end up with the same net result. For people who like to solo a lot the 2nd one is preferable.
In essence there is no such thing as a non trinity game unless you go for the instant rezz- no death penalty-zerg style of game play(IE most FPS shooters).
To not have the holy trinity you either need a game without healing or a game without dps.
Hardly i havent watched the show but from my understanding he is pretty one maybe one and a half dimensional persona( i might be wrong cause i havent watched show). i do not do what i do cause im a misanthrope, a cynic, a narcissist or a curmudgeon. on the contrary im the polar opposite of all of that, and the the reverse opposite of all that's left.
I dont act and write and talk in this manner cause i am any kind of a one-dimensional or two-dimensional persona, i do it cause i have an omni-dimensional persona. I might write or act in a matter as above, or act or write in a completely compassionate/defending/attacking/neutral manner, or any possible combinations of manners or feeling or states of mind&body&soul that is needed or is appropriate at a current moment.
Unlike a tv show character, im a living breathing complex human being, as is every of roughly 7 billion inhabitants of this planet+those in orbit on the ISS or any covert space program for that matter.
So in short the answer to your question is nope.
Not exactly u urself have contradicted urself let me rephrase:
To not have the holy trinity you either need a game without healing or a game without dps.
first here u dont mention tanking cause in GW2 perse its non existant in its holy trinitial form, so in essence we dont have holy trinity anymore we have a holy duality of healing + dps with everyone getting 'hit' by a mob at some points. if u want to abuse words and masacre the english language u can say that everybody is tanking and thus tanking is still there.
So we arive at an impasse, there both is a trinity and there isnt a trinity, it comes down to a matter of opinion, but one thing in common with both of these trains of thought(types of opinions) is that there is no more HOLY trinity of fixed and grand tank heal spank classes,
instead we have a trinity subverse(sub-universe), as someone said a universe within every class which contains the trinity in itself, everyone can heal a bit do dps and "TANK" "TAKE DMG" a bit.
So one could say we have a normal trinity instead of a holy trinity.
Your questions are something akin to an athlete who has only ever played basketball asking, "If a sport doesn't have a basket, then how do you score?" The answer is, it varies wildly from one sport to the next. It's entirely the wrong question to ask.
Try picking up some non-trinity games that are already on the market and see how it goes. Off the top of my head, try Guild Wars, Pirates of the Burning Sea, Spiral Knights, A Tale in the Desert, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online, or Uncharted Waters Online. The answers to your questions vary wildly from one game to the next, and sometimes the answer is, "That question doesn't make sense."
I second that, its what i wrote without my wall of text and explained in a nice manner
, and basically it answers all of ur questions OP without actually answering any of them 
Quite Poetic dont u agree ?
I think alot of people are ( assumeing ) that games without classes will end up with tank,dps,healer characters anyways because they havnt played a non class game.
My answer to this would depend on whether you consider rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock to be a different game from rock-paper-scissors.
FOTM uber builds of course.
I like to refer to WoW as a Holy Trinity game because players have only one role at a time and in order to do it you need to commit to it 100%. As a DPS, every single decision you make with gear, rotation, talents, etc is all focused on maximizing your DPS. Same thing with healers and tanks. Being a hybrid is impossible because it's incredibly inefficient compared to being a pure role in that kind of system where you can keep stacking flat and % bonuses towards one thing.
You could say most games are a trinity system as long as you have people taking damage, dealing damage, and healing damage, but it's a simplification based on WoW's system. It's not Holy Trinity to me if you can have useful offtanks or DPS who can support, or healers who can also deal meaningful damage.
Another thing I like to point out is that back in the Everquest days, an Enchanter was almost a mandatory inclusion to every group. They could go an entire night and not tank anything, not damage anything, and not heal anything. They had insane crowd control (think sheeping in WoW but you could do 5-6 mobs at a time, backed up by multiple AOE stuns), and they had these amazing buffs (massive group mana regen, group 60% attack speed haste). They also had debuffs to slow a mob's attack speed considerably. We don't think about this kind of class being part of the trinity because WoW has gotten away from it. These days crowd control is one mob at a time, secondary to your main role, if it's even needed at all due to AOE tanking.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007