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Guild Wars 2 Video: Holy Trinity
Sharpeh
Member Posts: 111
in Guild Wars 2
What's up everyone!
I've just posted yet another video! This time it's about the Holy Trinity! This is one of the features that got me drawn in to Guild Wars 2! I think it's about time they are getting rid of it! Go check it out on my YouTube Channel! 
http://www.youtube.com/user/TubeElephant
Again, I'll end this post with a question.
What are your thoughts about the Holy Trinity? What are the pros of the Soft Trinity? And can you think of any cons?
Hope is nature's way of enabling us to survive so that we can discover nature itself.
Check out my YouTube Channel for LOADS of info on Guild Wars 2!
http://www.youtube.com/user/TubeElephant
Comments
Another great video. More detailed than some others, but this is a key issue, and needs more elaboration. It makes things clear but doesn't run overlong. I am going to just start sending people who don't get it or think it's an Asian grinder or whatever to your channel.
I also think it is way past time they did away with the trinity in a way that doesn't leave us with zerging hack-and-slash combat that drives away a large portion of MMO and/or RPG players in general.
The pros are some of the things the devs mention in the videos you used. You can switch in real time to fill different roles. Say your elementalist wants to be the support character, and she's walking around in water attunement helping people out. Some skritt pour out of a hidden corner and drop her before we can do anything about it. So while we are trying to get to her, someone else takes on healing and protection responsibilities so we don't die trying to drop that group and save her.
There will be tons of situations like this that make it invaluable. Not to mention the no more "LFG Healer" or for tanks.
The only negative I can see is if it does turn into a zerg. I don't think so, based on the videos, but we don't really know how things will play out long term. But I think combat is complex enough and tanking is simple enough this will not happen.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
Bloody hell! I didn't think I could be brain-washed, this is your masterpiece so far.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Nice, thanks.
you are fast! always a new video when i check your youtube channel. good work. All the information in one spot.
seriously it's awesome please don't stop. Keep 'em coming.
Thank you all! :-) It feels good to hear that my work is appreciated!
It might be a while for my next video though. With GamesCom coming up. And I have some exams coming up too, so I won't have as much spare time to make these. But whenever I find the time, I'll be working on the next video! ^^
Hope is nature's way of enabling us to survive so that we can discover nature itself.
Check out my YouTube Channel for LOADS of info on Guild Wars 2!
http://www.youtube.com/user/TubeElephant
I'll be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the "soft trinity" concept. And I fully understand that I'm in the minority on this. I also do agree that there is some value in this type of system, so I'm not dead-set against it per se. My main problem with it is the idea that if every single player can provide tanking, or can provide healing, or can provide dps, and all within the same battle as needed...then I don't see how any players/professions separate themselves. It seems to take the individiuality away from the player. I know this will sound elitist, and I really don't mean it to be, but there used to be a reason to take pride in your class and mastering the mechanics to the point you are considered one of the better specialists on your server. "So and so is one of the better healers on the server, " or "So and so is one of the better tanks on the server." Or the best healer or tank in your guild. With the soft trinity concept, nobody stands out, or can differentiate themselves in that way. Everyone can do everyone else's job.
Now, I realize the argument that will be presented to me by what I just said: "You will stand out, but moreso based on your actual skill as a player than any class mechanics." To a point, I agree. Skill will have a lot to do with it, and that's a good thing. I just take issue with the fact that the individual classes that you play suddenly seem less important. If everyone can do everything, than is anyone really standing out? I know you'll get a few who are just really, really good players with a lot of skill. You'll also get some people who are just bad and don't react well to situations that occur in combat. But the large portion of players will be in that group that simply don't distinguish themselves in any way. Solid players, but due to the soft trinity concept, not distinguishable from anyone else in terms of how they perform or what role they perform in combat.
I also have to wonder about the professions themselves. This just seems to be yet another way to make them more homogenous. And I could be wrong on this, but with the set amount of skills you can actually equip + the fact that everyone can perform the same role, won't all classes basically be the same, with just different skill names and variety in how they actually dps? I dunno, I could be way off here.
I hope it works, I really do. And again, I do see some merit in what they are trying to do. Not having to wait for that healer to jump into your group before going into an instance is a great thing. I'm just concerned other aspects of gameplay or profession customization will suffer because of it.
The thing is that classes can't do everything at the same time, you've got to choose. You've only got 2 weapons in most cases, so you can have a mace+shield for control and a longbow for AOE dps, but you're not going to have a warhorn for support. You only have 3 utility skills as well, and they don't change with weapon. If you want the party regeneration boon, you can't take the thing that roots the mob. From what we know about the explorable mode, it's going to be hard as hell (3 hour wipefest on a level 35 dungeon, when playing with 3 developers in your group?). They had to work out their tactics and skills in great detail to be successful.
From what we can tell, mobs absolutely destroy you in this game, so I think especially the good "tanks" are going to stand out as being excellent dodgers. Cross profession combos will also give people a very good feel I think of the people who are situationally aware. People who rez other people. These things will be noticed.
I also hope they allow log parsers in the game (not damage meters, log parsers), so you can really see how things are doing. Just like in WoW raiding you're like how the hell did this guy do 1k more DPS than everybody else, hopefully we can really see the results after the fact of people who still DPS mid dodge, or who just manage to never take any damage.
I think the classes will play very differently. Take the self heal, it's not just push button, get healed, it's got a secondary effect. A warrior's might also increase adrenaline, letting it be used for offensive burst. A thief's might make them roll backwards (or spinning around to jump forward). A necromancer has a lifetapping minion as their "self heal" that doesn't act like a heal unless they push the button again to explode it. To me these don't feel homogenous at all.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Great video!
I know this hasn't been really delved into in any great detail yet. It is a valid concern, however... If you've ever played GW1, you could say the same for that game, but every class feels VERY unique. Also, what tends to happen, is people like to roll with certain classes that they play well with, so you will STILL probably see some form of class discrimination for dedicated groups. It just won't be nearly as bad as it is in most MMOs.
That said, I suggest taking a look at some of the class skills (I know we don't have that much info out yet, but it still gives a good idea of the differences). Some classes are particularly good at handling certain situations, while others excell at other types of situations. Within these differences exist the fundamental ability to fulfill every trinity role to a certain extent, however a Guardian might have better AoE protection, while a Warrior might have better party buffs. An elementalist might have better offensive synergies, while a thief might be better at closing distances super quick.
- I hope that made some sort of sense. THe problem with this type of combat system, is it's very difficult to grasp until you've actually played it. There are very distinct differences between each profession, but they also aren't pigeon-holed into one role to achieve those differences.
Ah okay. Thanks for the response. I never played Guild Wars myself, due to the lack of a persistant world, so I'm not real familiar with the class system. I will definitely look into that for GW2, and am very much looking forward to playing. My issue with the soft trinity isn't a game-breaker for me, and hopefully, I'll come to embrace it.
QFT
that was pretty impressive video, thank you for it
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Is it because healing/tank classes suck? Or is it because very few people want to tank/heal?
In Rift it is even easier to switch between roles. Now I didn´t play it to endgame, so if someone does: are there more tanks/healers available?
I had some of the same sorts of concerns, and getting more info has made me realize its not as big of an issue as I'd thought - but I'll probably always be a bit skeptical until I see how it works first hand
edit, re: Rift - I did see the ultra flexibility of the class system as a bad thing, especially after playing it for almost two months, and just feeling very little connection to my character, due to what felt like a lack of individuality. Rift had bigger game-breaking issues that got to me, but that didn't help. I hope the GW2 system is at least better in this respect, but I can't tell just from what I've seen and read.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The no holy trinty concept isn't a new one. Saga of Ryzom has this aspect in it along with other skill based games though I am glad that ArenaNet is pulling non-standard concepts from game that aren't your traditional leveling treadmill.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
I'll answer this for you. The 3 dps slots dont actually fill first. there is a que and its based on role selected so if there are 254 Dps qued across the X amount of servers linked to the dungeon finder it's basically gonna allow whatever dps'rs were there first. So it's a wait your turn type of thing. Tanks and healers are actually short in WoW in comparison so while you have 254 Dps there may be 98 Healers qued as heals or dps (though due to shortage of heals they are gonna be slotted as healer not dps). This means they are fewer than dps so ther que timer will be shorter than DPS. (these numbers weren't accurate just an example) And then you have tanks who don't usually have a que time at all since they were really short on those. I tanked and it was almost always instant. I used to tank and que as dps at the same time but I never got slotted for the dps slot. No the classes don't suck, but for me groups usually made it a non fun experience so I didn't enjoy it. With the invention of the dungeon finder it made geting groups easier as dps, but it also made the whole dungeon running feel like a fast food experience , especially for tanks and healers,, they pulled up, grabbed loot without a care for the service, and left.
To the OP. Thank you sir for the video. I don't see you much on the forums discussing the game but it is nice to see a fan putting forth the effort to brighten the community in his own way. Much appreciated.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
It's all about Range.
~you ever notice why Anet nerver highlights melee combat in there trailers?~
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
For those of you who are having a hard time seeing how the classes can fulfill each role of the trinity, but still feel unique, I highly recommend subscribing to the OP's channel and watching some of the other class videos.
In particular, I think it does a great job showing how the elementalist, warrior, & thief classes all can fulfill multiple roles, yet feel completely different at the same time.
I wonder if GW2 will end up this way. PSO was a no trinity type game and it also ended up leaning heavily in favor of ranged classes.
I think WoW did a diservice to the idea of roles in groups. In Everquest there was the tank, healer, damage, and control. In any dungeon group, you needed all four of these plus a support role that could have been a backup tank, or an extra damage, or off healer. WoW should have expanded upon it and fixed the flaws in the system. Instead, they dumbed it down and threw that all away by getting rid of control, and support roles, and making the groups favor tank, healer, and 3 damage.
I don't know, I actually think they do a decent job of mixing melee and ranged abilities in their samples for class skills. The warrior has the most, with 4 of 5 related to melee but all of them something. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_TzYExWoQY If it's not a physical attack, it's a PBAOE or a proximity mine.
I've also been a little worried about the game devolving into ranged only combat, but I think we'll just half to wait and see. Look at this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=vsUcGBL56Ng#t=161s Unlike a lot of over DEs that have been toned down in difficulty, I believe this one hasn't. A lot of other videos have the mobs moving very slowly and infrequently attacking, but these NPCs look like they're always in someone's face. Granted, these players don't really know what they're doing, but it makes me wonder if it's even possible to kite/shoot them without running out of energy.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
yep time to be on the dark side of guild wars 2 0-0 good is dumb
. its looks good ^_^
.....
Oh gods it's that video...
the hair gel
@_@
Great job on the video; even though I have seen it all before, it is nice having it all edited together in one all inclusive package.
I know I am looking forward to seeing it in action; my only concern is minmaxer in game trying to force their view of each class on players. Oh you are playing a Guardian you should be using these weapons sets, god I hate that stuff in game! Those people that think they need to tell everyone else how to play need to go take a long walk off a short pier.
Go watch the Thief reveal from PAX east and say that! When you watch the two developers playing together as a thief and Guardian you can see how powerful melee can be when people know what they are doing.
A lot of the video's I've seen have featured melee combat. Especially with the thief, warrior, and guardian. I have even seen a good amount of melee rangers. And of course, mages are going to be more of a ranged profession as compared to other professions, because they are not the sturdiest or hardiest professions in the game. I honestly don't think the whole ranged situation will be a problem. Because I'm sure you're not going to be able to kite everything with the energy system that comes tied in with the tumbling and such.
Thanks for all the nice comments about my video! :-) I really appreciate it!
As for the Holy Trinity. Most games I've played, I've played the hybrid classes. I really love the ability to switch spec and be able to fill a different role. It's something that really appeals to me. I've always been looking for a game that let you play all the roles without having to respec or anything, so Guild Wars 2 is just perfect. I love how they think outside the box all the time, and bring ideas to the table that are really innovative. I just can't wait to get into a dungeon with an ele and run up to the front line, switch to earth magic and hold the line! That has to be one of the most epic feelings ever, tanking as a light armor class!
Hope is nature's way of enabling us to survive so that we can discover nature itself.
Check out my YouTube Channel for LOADS of info on Guild Wars 2!
http://www.youtube.com/user/TubeElephant