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(Themepark) Level Down Scaling for High Level players in lower level contents is a great feature for

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  • MuruganMurugan Member Posts: 1,494

    Players scaling down should not recieve an equal bonus as if they were leveling at their higher level.

     

    Lower level content is easier, so doing this ruins/negates high level content/leveling.  See FFXI Qufim groups for an example, it was horrible.

     

    I'm totally fine with the concept as long as it is geared towards helping lower players level who can't find people their level to play with, not when it encourages high level player to go grind out in low level zones because it is easy/faster XP.

  • SereliskSerelisk Member Posts: 836

    Originally posted by Murugan

    Players scaling down should not recieve an equal bonus as if they were leveling at their higher level.

     

    Lower level content is easier, so doing this ruins/negates high level content/leveling.  See FFXI Qufim groups for an example, it was horrible.

     

    I'm totally fine with the concept as long as it is geared towards helping lower players level who can't find people their level to play with, not when it encourages high level player to go grind out in low level zones because it is easy/faster XP.

    The philosophy that Arena Net has in mind when implementing this system is...

    1.) You should always be able to play with your friends. (You can also sidekick players up to your level to accomplish this in the opposite direction) and...

    2.) You should never be unhappy to see other players. (Since players are scaled down, they can not grief)

     

    *Bonus*

    The Dynamic Event system is more than just a way to progress through the game. They're all designed with replayability, storytelling, and genuine fun in mind. So this means, at level 80, ALL 1500 dynamic events are available to you for you to play until your heart's content.

    If you have a higher level friend, you can jump straight to higher level content though there will be the implied restrictions that you ahve to be with that player, and you will not have the skills, traits, or gear flexibility that the normal players of those levels have.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG

    Originally posted by jpnz
    I recall a certain sandbox single player game called Elder Scrolls 4 Obivilion which had level scaling.
    And it was absolutely terrible.
    I hate rubber-band/level scaling game design.
    It also caused an exploit.  If you never slept, you never leveled and you could beat the entire game at level 1.
     
    Guild Wars scales characters UP in eye of the north... treating them as level 20.  I works fine.
     
    Scaling player down (or mobs up) interferes with farming and serves no purpose other than punishing a high level for being in a low zone.



    Why should a high level player in a low level zone have it any easier than a low level player in the same zone?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ReklawReklaw Member UncommonPosts: 6,495

    Originally posted by Creslin321

    Completely support, and really, this just highlights one of the problems that I feel exists in theme park MMORPGs:

    The huge power gap.

    Why is it necessary for a level 30 to be 20-30 time more powerful than a level 20?  What does this contribute to the game?  A feeling of advancement?  You could get that from unlocking new abilities or traits.

    All it does is make it so a very small percentage of the game world is open to you at any one time.  You basically perpetually play the role of Goldilocks.  

    "I can't go to that area!  The mobs are 4 levels above me!  Oh no, this is no good, the mobs are all greend and grey and I'm not getting exp!  Ahhh...this area is just right."

    Level scaling is good because it opens the world up the "weaker" world to higher level players, but it's almost a backwards mechanic.  Why not just make the power gap less drastic instead of using the band-aid solution of level scaling?

     Well AoC I consider to be pretty much a themepark, it doesn't have full down or upword scalling, but does have dungeons and area's you can enter that will scale to your lvl, but overall you can go anywhere regardless your lvl, obviously if you're to low lvl for certain area's you're able to find out the hard way or the run away way. But they also have mixed allot of open area's that when you reach higher lvl it's still fun to go back to area's where also the lower lvl players can be but there are higher lvl mobs/creature's around. You will encounter the grey things that give minimal 1/4 xp points per kill but they still can drop items/resources you might need if you're into crafting or just selling items/resources.

    Overall I don't understand hate towards games regardless what in anyway. I understand dislike, but hate on something that is in the entertainment genre is just silly in my opinion.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     








    Why should a high level player in a low level zone have it any easier than a low level player in the same zone?

     

    Because they are high level, and thus have played more and earned more and thusly (I feel) deserve to have an edge due to their increased time investment.

    All they are trying to do is make sure higher level players still have an edge, not completely and totally dominate to the point that there is no fun/challenge to things anymore.

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Having different zones with different levels is necessary because in an MMO, the game have to thin out the population somehow. If the first zone you reach have mobs from levels 1 to 50 , and 90 % of gaming population stayed at that zone, the rest of the zones will be barren, and also the starting zones will be over crowded.

    IF you removed the level requirements in zones, how will you spread out your population.

    This is also why when you reach the cap levels, they have raid dungeons that requires a large group, this is so that a large groups of cap players are in separate instances.

    And also they don't want players to farm endlessly in one zone from start to finish, and everyone knows that if the opportunity presents itself that you can kill this small bunny from level 1 to 50 near this town to recharge, everyone will be doing that.

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • blackcat35blackcat35 Member Posts: 479

    City of Heroes does this right.  You can group up with someone and he can lower your level so you can adventure together.   It lowers what powers you can do, but I think you still have the same hit points at the higher levels.  (not sure if things hit you harder or not though).

    These are in the instances in the dungeon, when you're not in a dungeon or mission, not much point in lowering your level.  High levels earned the right to be high level.   Its not like they are getting experience for killing low level rats.....

    ==========================
    The game is dead not, this game is good we make it and Romania Tv give it 5 goat heads, this is good rating for game.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851

    Originally posted by Bhazir

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Personally, I don't like the idea of the world (or parts) changing based on levels. It's not one world when you do that. And this is a huge part of why I don't like levels as they are. Not just the grind and the directed game play through connect-the-levels, but the "unrealistic" disjointing of the game world.

    I can understand your point if you like the level systems of the WoW Clones. I think this would be a good idea for you and players like you. But it's not what I want. I think the game can be more exciting if they remove this play to level style, and then you don't need to do anything like you are talking about for the dungeons, you don't need to zone the content.

    I think you misunderstanded the point, the world isn't changing. What he is talking about is downscaling the high levels. In other words when you enter a zone designed for level 10-19 as a level 45 you are scaled down to the powers of a level 20 for example, the zone stay exactly the same as before.

    CoX has such sort of system where you can sidekick lower players on 2 ways: scale them up so their stats are equivalent to a character just one level below you (without the skills), or you scale down tot he same level of the lower level losing access to the powers you picked after that level. But for this to work you have to track in what order people took powers/talents and at what levels.

    I wasn't sure how he meant that. But changing the character is just as bad as changing the world. That's my opinion, of course. The thing is, you lose meaning by scaling either. The game becomes a game rather than a world that makes consistent sense.

    A "persistent" world without this consistency doesn't seem very singularly persistent.

    What I want is a game where the power gaps are drastically reduced, and the game play isn't about that. New powers and abilities, rather than big leaps in power, some balance. And game play about what's happening in the game world, an evolving storyline based on what the players accomplish as a whole. I want GMs to move the game story along just like a good D+D Dungeon Master would, only in a grand scale that encompasses the world.

    Once upon a time....

  • BhazirBhazir Member Posts: 321

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Bhazir


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    I think you misunderstanded the point, the world isn't changing. What he is talking about is downscaling the high levels. In other words when you enter a zone designed for level 10-19 as a level 45 you are scaled down to the powers of a level 20 for example, the zone stay exactly the same as before.

    CoX has such sort of system where you can sidekick lower players on 2 ways: scale them up so their stats are equivalent to a character just one level below you (without the skills), or you scale down tot he same level of the lower level losing access to the powers you picked after that level. But for this to work you have to track in what order people took powers/talents and at what levels.

    I wasn't sure how he meant that. But changing the character is just as bad as changing the world. That's my opinion, of course. The thing is, you lose meaning by scaling either. The game becomes a game rather than a world that makes consistent sense.

    A "persistent" world without this consistency doesn't seem very singularly persistent.

    What I want is a game where the power gaps are drastically reduced, and the game play isn't about that. New powers and abilities, rather than big leaps in power, some balance. And game play about what's happening in the game world, an evolving storyline based on what the players accomplish as a whole. I want GMs to move the game story along just like a good D+D Dungeon Master would, only in a grand scale that encompasses the world.

    So by your logic it is normal that you can become a demi god in the lower zones and the bloodthirsty bear that nearly killed you when you started out now completely ignores you? Well guess we got both a different view of what makes a world feel alive. That bear should still be dangerous, just less that is why the scaling should put you at the highest level intended for a zone, or perhaps 1-2 levels higher to give a small advantage.

    If you don't see this as something good you are just one of those players that like to play all games on baby easy mode, or like to spoil the fun for the ones in the levelrange playing in that zone. Yes I have seen newer players already quit because the high level thought it would be nice to kill whole spawns of mobs with a single AoE that are needed for a quests and now have to wait for respawn and hope the high level player goes away instead of doing the same again. Even after trying to communicate with the higher level. And yes a lot of players will be jerks if they can.

    "If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"

    image

  • VryheidVryheid Member UncommonPosts: 469

    In terms of instanced dungeons, I don't see why this could possibly be a bad idea as long as it was optional. Maybe have an "extreme" mode for each instance that puts all players, regardless of level, on equal footing. This would certainly allow early dungeons to be less of a boring grind at higher levels.

    On the other hand, high leveled players also aught to have the option to play the content at whatever level they want. They invested the time and energy to tackle greater foes and improve the strength of their character, without this tangible reward for leveling up there is no incentive for players to challenge themselves. The main purpose of doing so is that it makes gathering materials in these lower leveled dungeons much easier, and it allows them to help lower leveled players progress through the game much more quickly.

    Clearly the option to do either one would be the best of both worlds.

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

    Its perfect, it keeps all content challenging...

     

    But this also means that the devs need to give people a reason to travel back...

     

    And yes, maybe higher level players should have a small advantage, like more and better skills.

     

     

    In a game like GW2 its an absolute neccesarity to down scale players, to prevent high level players from ruining lower level dynamic events.

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Originally posted by Bhazir


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Personally, I don't like the idea of the world (or parts) changing based on levels. It's not one world when you do that. And this is a huge part of why I don't like levels as they are. Not just the grind and the directed game play through connect-the-levels, but the "unrealistic" disjointing of the game world.

    I can understand your point if you like the level systems of the WoW Clones. I think this would be a good idea for you and players like you. But it's not what I want. I think the game can be more exciting if they remove this play to level style, and then you don't need to do anything like you are talking about for the dungeons, you don't need to zone the content.

    I think you misunderstanded the point, the world isn't changing. What he is talking about is downscaling the high levels. In other words when you enter a zone designed for level 10-19 as a level 45 you are scaled down to the powers of a level 20 for example, the zone stay exactly the same as before.

    CoX has such sort of system where you can sidekick lower players on 2 ways: scale them up so their stats are equivalent to a character just one level below you (without the skills), or you scale down tot he same level of the lower level losing access to the powers you picked after that level. But for this to work you have to track in what order people took powers/talents and at what levels.

    I wasn't sure how he meant that. But changing the character is just as bad as changing the world. That's my opinion, of course. The thing is, you lose meaning by scaling either. The game becomes a game rather than a world that makes consistent sense.

    A "persistent" world without this consistency doesn't seem very singularly persistent.

    What I want is a game where the power gaps are drastically reduced, and the game play isn't about that. New powers and abilities, rather than big leaps in power, some balance. And game play about what's happening in the game world, an evolving storyline based on what the players accomplish as a whole. I want GMs to move the game story along just like a good D+D Dungeon Master would, only in a grand scale that encompasses the world.

    If you are scaling toward instanced dungeons in the gaming world, thenit has been done before, FFXI and also COH like others has mentioned already scales players based on the appropriate levels.

    But what most people was trying to get to was making the game world adjust to your levels. That mentality only works in a Single Player game, it will never work in an MMO, because the mob isn't yours, its a free roaming Mob that can target any player that gets too close. You can not change or affect the gaming world because that gaming world isn't yours its everyones. IF  you killed this quest giver, does that mean everyone else behind you can't access that quest giver anymore. Then we will start getting grifers killing all the quest givers, so whats gonna happen to all those players that play 3 months after the games goes live. What the hell are they gonna do because they started late ?

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by heerobya

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     




    Why should a high level player in a low level zone have it any easier than a low level player in the same zone?

     


    Because they are high level, and thus have played more and earned more and thusly (I feel) deserve to have an edge due to their increased time investment.
    All they are trying to do is make sure higher level players still have an edge, not completely and totally dominate to the point that there is no fun/challenge to things anymore.



    Except the way it works out in mmorpg is that the higher level players are juggernauts. There is literally no number of low level creatures that could stop them.

    Personally, I think a lot of content should scale to the level of the player intrinsically. For instance, a level 80 player fighting a level 10 mob would do level 10 damage to the mob. The level 10 mob would do level 80 damage to the player. The modifiers would be in the skills the player knows and the gear they've looted. Rolling through a level 10 zone to farm really valuable level 10 stuff would require effort...it wouldn't just be free farming.

    I also think that as players kill more and more of a particular mob, they should wise up and run away as soon as they see that player coming. Some mobs should get tired of being killed and attack players en mass as well. But that's probably a whole different ball of wax.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • LucioonLucioon Member UncommonPosts: 819

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by heerobya





    Originally posted by lizardbones

     
















    Why should a high level player in a low level zone have it any easier than a low level player in the same zone?



     






    Because they are high level, and thus have played more and earned more and thusly (I feel) deserve to have an edge due to their increased time investment.

    All they are trying to do is make sure higher level players still have an edge, not completely and totally dominate to the point that there is no fun/challenge to things anymore.








    Except the way it works out in mmorpg is that the higher level players are juggernauts. There is literally no number of low level creatures that could stop them.



    Personally, I think a lot of content should scale to the level of the player intrinsically. For instance, a level 80 player fighting a level 10 mob would do level 10 damage to the mob. The level 10 mob would do level 80 damage to the player. The modifiers would be in the skills the player knows and the gear they've looted. Rolling through a level 10 zone to farm really valuable level 10 stuff would require effort...it wouldn't just be free farming.



    I also think that as players kill more and more of a particular mob, they should wise up and run away as soon as they see that player coming. Some mobs should get tired of being killed and attack players en mass as well. But that's probably a whole different ball of wax.

    So what you are saying is that this Bunny is hitting a level 1 player with ripped single layer cloth  with a damage of 2 but when it hits me a level 50 player in full plate its hitting me with a damage of 2000 and my uber sword that I got from a dragon hits that bunny with a damage of 1 while this level 1 player hits it with a stick on the ground and hits with a damage of 1 . That totally makes the game extremely immersive and realistic. So my 3 months of playing got my character's strength and gear to be the same as a level 1 player. Awesome

    Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  • AmarantharAmaranthar Member EpicPosts: 5,851

    Originally posted by Lucioon

    Originally posted by Amaranthar


    Originally posted by Bhazir


    Originally posted by Amaranthar

    Personally, I don't like the idea of the world (or parts) changing based on levels. It's not one world when you do that. And this is a huge part of why I don't like levels as they are. Not just the grind and the directed game play through connect-the-levels, but the "unrealistic" disjointing of the game world.

    I can understand your point if you like the level systems of the WoW Clones. I think this would be a good idea for you and players like you. But it's not what I want. I think the game can be more exciting if they remove this play to level style, and then you don't need to do anything like you are talking about for the dungeons, you don't need to zone the content.

    I think you misunderstanded the point, the world isn't changing. What he is talking about is downscaling the high levels. In other words when you enter a zone designed for level 10-19 as a level 45 you are scaled down to the powers of a level 20 for example, the zone stay exactly the same as before.

    CoX has such sort of system where you can sidekick lower players on 2 ways: scale them up so their stats are equivalent to a character just one level below you (without the skills), or you scale down tot he same level of the lower level losing access to the powers you picked after that level. But for this to work you have to track in what order people took powers/talents and at what levels.

    I wasn't sure how he meant that. But changing the character is just as bad as changing the world. That's my opinion, of course. The thing is, you lose meaning by scaling either. The game becomes a game rather than a world that makes consistent sense.

    A "persistent" world without this consistency doesn't seem very singularly persistent.

    What I want is a game where the power gaps are drastically reduced, and the game play isn't about that. New powers and abilities, rather than big leaps in power, some balance. And game play about what's happening in the game world, an evolving storyline based on what the players accomplish as a whole. I want GMs to move the game story along just like a good D+D Dungeon Master would, only in a grand scale that encompasses the world.

    If you are scaling toward instanced dungeons in the gaming world, thenit has been done before, FFXI and also COH like others has mentioned already scales players based on the appropriate levels.

    But what most people was trying to get to was making the game world adjust to your levels. That mentality only works in a Single Player game, it will never work in an MMO, because the mob isn't yours, its a free roaming Mob that can target any player that gets too close. You can not change or affect the gaming world because that gaming world isn't yours its everyones. IF  you killed this quest giver, does that mean everyone else behind you can't access that quest giver anymore. Then we will start getting grifers killing all the quest givers, so whats gonna happen to all those players that play 3 months after the games goes live. What the hell are they gonna do because they started late ?

    Then don't do it that way.

    Damn, why stay stuck in WoW Clone thinking?

    Once upon a time....

  • 1carcarah11carcarah1 Member Posts: 172

    WoW should have done that on Cataclysm. They revamped the 1-60 content, a very good revamp btw, and even the new players arent able to play all that content. Cause you need to get to lvl85 in order to play the real content, leveling is set to be fast and you cant finish a map without getting grey quests at the middle of it.

     

  • kilunkilun Member UncommonPosts: 829

    Originally posted by Jimmac

    This was one of the best features of EQ2. More games should definitely have it if appropriate.

     I'm not sure.  The level scaling just doesn't work.  I mean we did this an a max level character with max AA's could basically solo a many of the low level zones because they were simply so powerful.

    I think it should be done regardless just like the system in CoX and EQ2, but it has to be scaled properly and I'd go so far as making their gear reflect the lower level players so it isn't just a breeze.

  • KenFisherKenFisher Member UncommonPosts: 5,035

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by ActionMMORPG





    Originally posted by jpnz

    I recall a certain sandbox single player game called Elder Scrolls 4 Obivilion which had level scaling.

    And it was absolutely terrible.

    I hate rubber-band/level scaling game design.






    It also caused an exploit.  If you never slept, you never leveled and you could beat the entire game at level 1.

     

    Guild Wars scales characters UP in eye of the north... treating them as level 20.  I works fine.

     

    Scaling player down (or mobs up) interferes with farming and serves no purpose other than punishing a high level for being in a low zone.








    Why should a high level player in a low level zone have it any easier than a low level player in the same zone?

     

    Because it's a low level zone.  Themeparks are linear progression games.  That's why low level zones generally don't reward XP for high level players.  The only reason to be there is to farm or help lowbies with quests if they get stuck.


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  When I don't understand, I ask.  Such is not intended as criticism.
  • JimmacJimmac Member UncommonPosts: 1,660

    Originally posted by kilun

    Originally posted by Jimmac

    This was one of the best features of EQ2. More games should definitely have it if appropriate.

     I'm not sure.  The level scaling just doesn't work.  I mean we did this an a max level character with max AA's could basically solo a many of the low level zones because they were simply so powerful.

    I think it should be done regardless just like the system in CoX and EQ2, but it has to be scaled properly and I'd go so far as making their gear reflect the lower level players so it isn't just a breeze.

     I understand what you're saying and kind of agree. I guess my point is that I like the mechanic overall. But yeah, EQ2's implementation of the mechanic could definitely use some tweaking.

    I just really like to be able to go back and do lower level content for xp with just a handful of people, when that same content would have taken many more people when we were all at that level. I like the challenge of small grouping content like that, but only when the mobs we are fighting are "conned" as being equal or higher level than us. 

    As you are saying though, the content absolutely does need to remain challenging or else it's too easy and not fun.

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